What's going on in Haiti

[Bob V]

We have just passed the anniversary of the earthquake and the country is in worse shape than ever. Now the expectation is that the cholera outbreak will kill more than the earthquake.

I watched a tv program a couple of weeks ago about a team of volunteers who opened up a road to an isolated mountain top village. They started by hiking up to the mountaintop led by the 71 year old ex-paratrooper who runs the organization. They scoped out the situation, hiked back down and came in with tools and a large team that air-dropped into a site that would make smoke jumpers cringe. They had to abort most of the cargo drop because there were hundreds of people crowding the drop zone and they could not keep the area clear after the first cargo load came down. They carried in the rest of the medical supplies but at least they got the shovels and others tools air delivered.

After the air show was over the volunteers (mostly old farts) got to work clearing brush and picking rocks to build a 1500 foot runway by hand. They were assisted by 20 Haitians who were paid for their help. Half way through the job they went on strike for higher wages but eventually settled for food
so the job continued.

When the runway was built the leader of the group came in with the air ambulance that he had convinced someone to donate to the village. It was a pretty impressive sight.

I am sure we have all heard by now how the UN and the aid workers were blamed for bringing the cholera and rioting broke out as a result.

At the beginning of the crisis, rape was a major problem in the refugee camps.

Now today I listened to a Haitian on the radio complaining the Haitian companies are not getting any of the contracts for reconstruction the is funded by donations from oversea.

WTF...Am I missing something here?

[Tristan]

My impression is that it's kind of hopeless. Most of the people are beyond poor. The country has been deforested and is slowly washing into the sea. There hasn't been much tourism in recent years, there's no industry and no hope for industry. I gather that the main deep water harbor was pretty much wrecked by the hurricane, hence no good sites for landing big stuff. Any food, medical supplies, or other aid materials tends to be stolen and then sold by the thieves. This was not a warm and fuzzy country before the earthquake and the earthquake has made it much worse.

[George Jung]

I've read/heard much the same. 60 minutes or similar show discussed this whole mess - and it's depressing how little is getting done, much because of this attitude. One point of interest - how many millions of dollars in aid materials is warehoused, with armed guards - and the govt. won't release it for use.

What I've heard/read of Haiti suggests there will never be anything but poverty, that the situation is so bad, you can ship in all the 'fish' you want, but you'll never be able to 'teach them to fish'. No industry/resources/jobs - how do you help that? It's a perpetual slum nation, with no leadership. Interesting to me was the satellite image of the island, where the boundary was sharply defined with Dominican Republic - lush forest in the DR, denuded mountains/lands Haiti. I've never heard how it is one country is so successful, the other such a failure.

[Mad Scientist]

/...Interesting to me was the satellite image of the island, where the boundary was sharply defined with Dominican Republic - lush forest in the DR, denuded mountains/lands Haiti. I've never heard how it is one country is so successful, the other such a failure.

Friends vacationing in the DR went to the border. They were also amazed about the difference at the border.

Now, if my memory hasn't betrayed me, in a few months we'll be 'celebrating' the fall of the Duvalier regime in 1986. That's a quarter-century of all sorts of aid projects, none of which appear to have done much good. I guess that, at some point, some sort of local leadership will need to emerge, to make any sort of use of aid programs.

Tom

[ishmael]

I'm not sure. It does seem a political wasteland.

It's neighbor, the Dominican Repuplic, sounds quite stable. The same island, and different governance. A theory, which sounds resonable to me, is that the Haitians, early in their life as a nation, embraced Voodoo.

[George Jung]

As far as Haiti/Dominican Republic - I'm always amazed that, when the disconnect between countries is discussed, the discussion falls flat. The differences between the two is remarkable - drastic - unbelieveable. I think that's the reason the discussion dies, at that point. That there can be such a disconnect is, in short, unbelieveable.

Believe it, folks. I don't know the how, or the why, but it's real.

[John Turpin]

I heard a report on NPR in the recent past ago about Haiti. I can't remember if it was pre- or post-earthquake. But, a community development worker was talking about the culture of Haiti and how difficult it is to get the people to help themselves. This guy was in charge of helping farmers expand their production and profitability. One of his "farmers" was a Haitian woman who had a single mango tree. She constantly complained that she needed the government to come and dig an irrigation ditch from a stream to her tree. When he responded and looked over the situation, he found that the tree was quite near the stream. He also found out that numerous adult male family members lived there and they seemingly relied on her sale of mangoes for (some of / all of) their livlihood. He also saw an unused shovel there. When asked why they didn't dig their own ditch, they seemed completely baffled and never seemed to understand the question. They just kept demanding that the goverment or some NGO or charity come dig their ditch. They were completely unable to help themselves. The aid workers have a huge task ahead of them, working in this kind of culture. Shame.

[SamSam]

Maybe Pat Robertson was right and their problem is they swore a pact with the devil.

[goodbasil]

News story here a couple of nights ago.

Very little has improved.
Pregnancies are up, especially among teen girls. (13 - 14 years old.)
Rapes have increased.
When the quake happened a prison was demolished and many very hardcore prisoners escaped. They've taken over much
of the water supply and are making a fine profit from it.

[Allison]

Maybe Pat Robertson was right and their problem is they swore a pact with the devil.


George Jung; No industry/resources/jobs - how do you help that? It's a perpetual slum nation, with no leadership.


Ishmael; A theory, which sounds resonable to me, is that the Haitians, early in their life as a nation, embraced Voodoo.

Some pretty pointed comments to make about the place so maybe some people need to look at the history of Haiti to get an idea of what has lead to the situation the country is in.
It was a French colony, the richest that france had till the slaves revolted and set up a free and democratic state. The neighbouring colony in the oresent DR was scared, it didn't want a slave revolt , neither did nearby USA, after all it had slaves contrary to it's Bill of Rights. When Napoleon wanted to crush the independent Haiti the US which should have been a support for democracy against a tyrant like Napoleon actually helped the French in return for Napoleon accepting the Louisiana Purchase.
haiti was crushed and a reign of terror introduced, after all those 2 pillars of "equality for all" knew it didn't apply to slaves!
When haiti was eventually freed it was forced to pay enormous reparations to France that crippled it financially. There was a huge disparity of wealth with a few rich landholders and a huge exslave landless class.

By the late C19 large US corporations were busy buying up the land and working with the Elite to strip the resources of the country. there was a lot of opposition and unrest so in 1915 Wilson invaded the country, US marines took control. When the "democratically" elected parliament refused to allow huge concessions to the US corporations they were disbanded at gunpoint.
The US ruled it as target to plunder till 1934. The elites continued this process and when Duvalier came to power he was actively supported by the US in return for continuing this policy. He ruled with terror.
He was finally replaced with a govt. dominated by the interests of the rich that ruled with paramilitary death squads, trained by the US, allowing the US corporations free access to what they wanted.
It wasn't till 1990 that a popularly elected Govt. gained power under Aristide, he didn't last long, a coup supported by the US replaced him. The OAS called for an embargo which the US ignored with companies continuing to deal with the coup leaders right up till the invasion by US troops that "restored democracy". Aristide was only allowed back in after agreeing to all the conditions that the US set. haiti was once again open to plunder by the foreign companies. Any 'Sweat shop" manufacturing that was set up was in "tax free" economic zones so there was no benefit to the Haitian govt. The US dumped huge quantities of subsidised rice on the local market destroying local agriculture.
Huge areas of the forest had been stripped over the years and this has been accelerated by industry and by the poor trying to get land for subsistence agriculture.
A tiny very corrupt elite held most of the wealth and the land. The majority of the landless poor lived in shanty towns around the few cities.
When the earthquake struck it hit mostly the poor, they died, lost everything and now suffer in the refugee camps.
the relief effort has been plagued by corruption and disorder with the gangs and the old money combinong to steal a lot of what should have gone to the poor.
The UN and the US troops have allowed the camps to descend into total lawless chaos. They stay out of the camps.
The cholera epidemic was almost certainly started by Nepali troops with the UN mission, there was a cholera outbreak in Nepal when they left and all the earliest cases were near their camp.

The reality of the deal now is that outside a few high profile NGO's that are suitable to the US press the real work that is happening is not being reported.
Cuba has the largest group of medical staff and engineers of any country there. They are treating more than 40% of all cholera cases, MSF is the other big player. Both are hampered by the problem of getting resources in as all access is US controlled or is subject to the corrupt local officials who are part of the "old system" in most cases.
The last thing that the US would be doing is acknowledging that Cuba is doing the real work in Haiti!!
Attempts to build housing for the homeless poor are being stopped by the landowners, the old Elite and US corporations, that restrict access to the land for such projects.
There are a lot of problems in Haiti, the population has been devastated by centuries of exploitation.

Did they make a pact with the Devil as some have suggested. Yes some of them most certainly did.
The rich Elite made a pact with the Devil for the last 100 years!!
Only he wears a stovepipe hat, has whiskers and dresses in red, white and blue!!

If any of this seems to be a bit much may I suggest a bit of Noam Chomsky for light reading and for the bit about the Cubans

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/cuban-medics-in-haiti-put-the-world-to-shame-2169415.html

[Allison]

Peter, I'm Australian!
there are a lot of Yanks, including some on this forum who might yell at you! They do at me, you just have to be thickskinned and ignore them! Have fun! Read Chomsky a real eyeopener!:d

[Bob V]

You make some good points Allison. I was not aware that there was a chance the cholera was brought in by aid workers or UN. I did know about the long history of exploitation by the super powers and the slave revolt etc.

I think Cuba is a good example of a small island nation that has suffered under the heel of oppression and it still very poor. I have never been to either country but the impression is that Cuba kicked out the colonialists rolled up her sleeves and got to work. The fact that they export doctors and aid to their neighbors speaks volumes for them. You might also look at Viet Nam. I just got back from a visit to that country which had special meaning to me as a veteran of the "American War". I spoke to a lot of people there and would often start the conversation by apologizing for being involved with the invasion and occupation. They don't seem to hold a grudge but rather are a peace-loving nation that is proud of their history of repelling invaders. There is a lot of poverty there and the country is still devastated by agent orange and the problems associated with it. There does not appear to be any kind of government welfare for the poor but I was struck by the amount of work that was going on by people of all ages. I visited a Budist orphanage while I was there to drop off some gifts. They did not know we were coming until we were on our way there but when we arrived the nun that greeted us would not simply take the contributions and let us walk away. She adamantly insisted that we join them for lunch. It was a real eye opener for me. The orphanage and temple had a courtyard that we entered through and it was full of tiny pieces of wood that were all laid out on the concrete in like a single layer not piled up.
I was told that they had just suffered a flood and afterwards the children collected the wood that was floating around, removed nails and laid it all out to dry for use as fire wood. The surrounding community was so poor that parents who could not support their children would turn them over to the orphanage where they were fed and educated. Some of the children would grow up to be nuns or non-religious workers in the orphanage. People from the community would volunteer labor and stay for lunch.

I contrast all of that with the site of the village with so many people standing around the clearing to watch the air drop and then running out to the cargo and making it impossible to drop all of the supplies because of literally hundreds of people in the way until the rock picking and the brush clearing began. When the work began there were only the volunteers and 20 Haitian employees who worked for the money which they argued was not enough.

I help build Habitat for Humanity homes here at home. The person who will live in that home is required to contribute their labor to the effort and once they do we see them show up to work on other peoples houses. All over the world you can see examples of people that have been beaten down under the heel of Uncle Sam and other despots who have risen up and refused to be defeated. I still think with all things considered that there is something "special" about Haiti.

I'm a big fan of Noam Chomsky by the way.

[Dutch]

Just watched a show on frontline about haitti- seems like all the organisations coming in to help - theres like 2000 of them now - are mucking stuff up - things will never get better until a viable government is established and it gets the ball rolling. There appears to be no law there - hard to have civilization when there is no law. A crime that we let this happen so close to our shores.

watch this and you will get an idea about " what is going on in Haiti"

http://video.pbs.org/video/1737171448/

[Allison]

Its a long long time since I was considered a girl!!
The Yanks will claim I have an advantage because I lived in the Sates for many years. I don't quite see it that way!
fortunately we are both a long way from them and can afford to be sensitive:D
Or maybe that should be "insensitive" to their problems!!

[Dutch]

I've read/heard much the same. 60 minutes or similar show discussed this whole mess - and it's depressing how little is getting done, much because of this attitude. One point of interest - how many millions of dollars in aid materials is warehoused, with armed guards - and the govt. won't release it for use.

What I've heard/read of Haiti suggests there will never be anything but poverty, that the situation is so bad, you can ship in all the 'fish' you want, but you'll never be able to 'teach them to fish'. No industry/resources/jobs - how do you help that? It's a perpetual slum nation, with no leadership. Interesting to me was the satellite image of the island, where the boundary was sharply defined with Dominican Republic - lush forest in the DR, denuded mountains/lands Haiti. I've never heard how it is one country is so successful, the other such a failure.

watch the video I posted if you have time - toward the end there is a snippet about a man who set up a clothing factory there- he employs 3000 workers- all of them happy for the job. Much of the problem with no jobs is there is no infrastructure to support industry of any sort. Those folks arent living in the 3rd world - they live in the stone age.

[T.W.]

...To be blunt (and to all reading please do not take this personally) but in Australia, people here generally think of Americans as dumb and ignorant, with a huge emphasis on ignorance of global affairs. I think this is an accurate view of many many Australians. We think this of say most Americans. We realise it is a bit unfair and we realise that it is a generalisation, but this view is very widely held. (I told you not to take it personally.. please do not yell at me)...
The entire world thinks this. US education is very well widespread, but not thorough at all.
I know someone that went to the US for his basketball career (the sport isn't well recognised around here and he's got skill!!), he had completed his last year of secundary education here in belgium (in our system its the 6th year, and you're about 17-18 yrs old, last step before university) and decided to redo that year in the US and he felt like he was back in 3rd year or so.
He eventually got so frustrated with the ignorent and uninformed attitude he dropped his dream, came back to belgium to keep playing basketball as recreation (top level national basketball here is hardly even paid, its really just recreation) and became a teacher!

[paladin]

History, outside of a few schools "back in the stone age" do not do very well teaching world history. Starting about grade 5 in Oklahoma we would study Oklahoma History from the outset to the present year. Each year got a bit deeper. Then we had world history, and the teacher was appalled at the books foisted on the school system.
When I arrived in the Philippines I started school at a local University, taking history, basic law and language courses. When I arrived in Newfoundland, I started courses on the country at the base to which I was assigned....Iceland, Greece (I really liked Greece), Saudi (King Faud U.) etc.........

[bobbys]

What Allison wrote is accurate. I was going to write the same, but not as well.

She knows more than I. My take on it was when the Haitians kicked out the French and established an independent colony, the other world powers put a blockade on Haiti and told the islands residents that they had to financially compenstate the wealthy landowners that were kicked out.

Becuase money was always pouring out of the country, it was never able to get its act togehter. The food aid that the US delivered destroyed the local agricultural sector.

Lots of mistakes over many many years. Other countires interfering. It seems that this history has imparted some sort of negative psychology on a large percentage of the people. Perhaps it is resentment, perhaps it is a culture of dependency.

The issue of foreigners buying the majority of the land of a small poor country and having the populace is a kindof large moral dilemma. Not just for Haiti, but other countries too. Take a small country that has been given poor economic advice by the World Bank or a similar organistation. They get into debt and have all sorts of financial problems. Is it ethical to sell the majority of a small countries land to rich overseas investors? Is this feudalism, or is it a form of defacto slavery by another name. These are big moral and philosophical questions that I do not have the answer to.

One thing that annoys me with mass media, is the lack of context behind a story. When the US intervened in the 1990s in Haiti there were lots of TV pictures. Did anyone bother to do a 10 minute story explaining the history of the country and how it got into the mess it was? No way, just lots and lots of 45 seconds tv clips of american forces coming in, providing 'security' handing out food. Lots of stories, lots of pictures, very little context. Anyone wonder why I hold the great majority of commercial mass media in contempt?

My guess is that the populace of the Dominican republic and Haiti are ethnically very similar (same island). One country is doing well, the other is not. So based on that I do not think it is a genetic thing. Perhaps it is a cultural problem, and a fair bit of being screwed over by more powerful countries.

On a bit of a tangent. but the way in which the US via the world bank got poor newly independent countries into debt (deliberately) often by advising them to buy expensive things that they did not need, is very well explained in the book by 'confessions of an economic hitmam' by Perkins. I can recommend it highly.

How did you get so well informed Allison?

To be blunt (and to all reading please do not take this personally) but in Australia, people here generally think of Americans as dumb and ignorant, with a huge emphasis on ignorance of global affairs. I think this is an accurate view of many many Australians. We think this of say most Americans. We realise it is a bit unfair and we realise that it is a generalisation, but this view is very widely held. (I told you not to take it personally.. please do not yell at me)

1.20am here, have to go to sleep, off to work tomorrow.
aside. ordered plans for R13 rowboat from bateau today, seems a nice boat, (I might scale it down a bit, but overall it looks pretty nice).

realise/realize.

Becuase/cause.

togehter/together.

countires/countries.

organistation/organization.

generalisation/generalization

[Garret]

.

realise/realize. Correct English/Australian/New Zealand Spelling

Becuase/cause. Fairly obvious typo

togehter/together. Another one

countires/countries. And another

organistation/organization. English/Australian/NZ + typo

generalisation/generalization Correct English/Australian/NZ spelling

The US uses "Z" in a lot of places where GB & ex-colonies use "S". So - correcting their use of "S" in these places is actually incorrect. Do you correct "colour" as well?

[George Jung]

.

realise/realize.

Becuase/cause.

togehter/together.

countires/countries.

organistation/organization.

generalisation/generalization

It bears repeating - and not for the spelling evaluation.

The latest MMWR discusses the cholera outbreak in detail, alludes to its introduction, but fails to point fingers as to the source. Genomic evaluation points to a single agent, common in Asia, introduced into a watersource associated with cultivation. Efforts to stem its spread have been stymied by a lack of infrastructure, and recommendations for emergency water treatment protocols have not been universally followed. A program of intense training for individuals in the population to recognize/treat (primarily with ORF) cholera is in place. Long term, rebuilding the infrastructure is paramount.

[bobbys]

hello Bobby S

I must say I really appreciate the constructive tone you have added to this thread

Then again, I have heard that a lot of the yanks (is easier to write than americans) do not understand sacrcasm.

I am sure your smart enough to distinguish between errors typed at 1.30am in the monring without the aid of a spell check and the inability to spell. Organisation, generalisation and realise are correct English. Occasionally I will adjust to use the yucky americanisation of our English, if only to make it less hassle for the spell checker.

I know your just winding me up, and it doesn't stress me at all.

There is a saying, if you cant counter the message, attack the messenger. I am capable of typing my text into word, checking for typo errors, and then cutting and pasting. This would eliminate typing errors.

I like to think that my spelling is very good, as is my vocabulary. My understanding of world affairs is good, but I get upset with myself when I find a topic that I am ignorant about.

Is my spelling and grammar excellent? yes.
Is my typing perfect? No,
Do I care... well actually not really.. that was why god invented spell checkers.
You would be suprised at the effort I go to to see that I do not care about so many things.

If I were nasty... I could dig it in some more, in that Americans are most ignorant that English and Australian language often have different spelling. But me, I am nice. Such a nice person. Too nice to bring that up.

Have you not read English novels and puzzled over the different spelling?

We had a TV program over here, and they went to the US with a map of Australia. The Yanks were asked to put place names to the major cities. I am sure that selected the poorer ones, but it was funny wwatching these guys with no idea.

Perhaps historically the US has been large and prosperous, there was little need to know about what was happening outside it's borders. As the United States relative influence in world affairs steadily declines, it may be in their interest to know more about other countries

until then

Colour, Colour, colour, colour, Realise, realise, realise, realise. Time for you lot to change your spelling to our superior English..

Somehow i knew you could dish it out but not take it:d.

But i stand corrected

[George Jung]

Ah, bobbys....


:D

[Bob V]

Alright mates (speaking Australian now). I know you're kidding with all those nasty things you allege about us seppos. If you had ever travelled extensively in our country you would find we are not all alike. These sweeping generalizations are just that.
We are a very diverse population over here...that is why we hate our fellow Americans so much and feel the need to be heavily armed at all times. I've got one hand on my glock as I type this.

Seriously, where's the love?

[wizbang 13]

Y' know, (or y'don't) I.ve been knockin' around here for 30 plus years.
Haiti ,IMOHO,is doomed. A Haitian to a DR is like a Mexican to an American. No racism , just fact.
I have no answer to this mess, just a bit of empathy
A few years ago , while sailing past haiti, I pulled a coupl o poor souls outta the sea, who were about to die a bad death. Long story short, the POPE, could do 10 million sub -humans a favor, and tell them that CONDOM is not a sin.

[Milo Christensen]

Meanwhile, Baby Doc is back in Haiti. WTFITAA?

[bobbys]

Alright mates (speaking Australian now). I know you're kidding with all those nasty things you allege about us seppos. If you had ever travelled extensively in our country you would find we are not all alike. These sweeping generalizations are just that.
We are a very diverse population over here...that is why we hate our fellow Americans so much and feel the need to be heavily armed at all times. I've got one hand on my glock as I type this.

Seriously, where's the love?.

Wadda ya tawking about I had Crocodile Dundee on tape till last year when my wife taped Princess Diary's over it.

[paladin]

Meanwhile, the politicians in Wash. D.C. are still haggling over how/whom will disburse the aid to Haiti money and how will they divide the rake off.

[Mad Scientist]

Meanwhile, Baby Doc is back in Haiti. WTFITAA?

Just when we were thinking that things couldn`t get much worse for Haiti. The news item I saw confirmed my recollection thatr it was 25 years since he left.

Tom

[stumpbumper]

Well, exploiting poor populations around the globe to profit the elite has been the way of the West for a few hundred years now. The US has undoubtedly been guilty of continuing the tradition, and I doubt any of us would claim we are without sin. However, many sincere efforts to help troubled areas over the years and at present can be cited, and it is often difficult due to political or logistical issues. If we fall short it isn't because we are not sincere in wanting to help, or that we are "dumb" and "ignorant." I don't doubt that many perceive Americans that way, but perceptions are just that - not always accurate. We are thankful that Cuba and others are involved in helping in Haiti. Many here are doing whatever we can. It's difficult to help those who are so difficult to help.

[Bob Adams]

Meanwhile, Baby Doc is back in Haiti. WTFITAA?

Probably heard there was a ton of relief money there and wants to see if he can help;)