Canoe design recommendation needed.

[BrianY]

My wife wants a canoe. I'd like to build one in cedar strip. Although I have experience using canoes on lakes and rivers (no whitewater), I don't know much about their design. I am looking for a design that will be suitable for two large adults (I weigh 275lbs) and two young kids (currently 4 and 7 years old) to use on local lakes and ponds - no tripping, no whitewater. I can also see using the canoe by myself or with just me and the kids at times.

My internet research had come up with the following possibilities:

Carrying Place Canoe & Boat Works (Joe Ziemba designs) 16' Original Chesnut Prospector, 17' WindStream

Bear Mountain Nomad 17, 16' Prospector

Newfound Woodworks Abenaki 16 or Nipmuck 17

I would prefer a 16' canoe over a 17' simply because of the size of my building space, but I'd go with a 17' if it is significantly better suited for my intended use.

Any thoughts on these designs (builiding experience or performance)? Any others I should consider?

Thanks.

[Tomcat]

Leaving aside the fact that lakes can be as dangerous as white water, you seem to be after a quiet water design.

A basic pre-requisite for a nicely performing (safe as well) canoe is that it trim out properly. This is both a mater of the total weight of the boat and everyone in it, and the how that weight is distributed.

When I started building my first canoe about 1979, I weighed about 180, and my girl weighed about 130, no problem. I now weigh 240, and my current girl weighs 100 pounds. It's tough to properly trim that out, for the time being we move kids/gear around to make it work.

It took me two years to finish that first project, I didn't know anything when I started, I had just built a few bent shaft paddles. One can find oneself with a moving target in these maters. As time goes by, your load and crew can change rapidly. You need to think not just of today, but where you will be when you actually launch. Building can take anything from a few days to several years, depending.

The best thing if you have that kind of trim issue are 2 solo canoes, most can actually take 2 or 3 aboard in a farm pond type situation, and when one of two want to go and do some serious paddling they can properly trim out the boats for their particular needs. Of great utility on lakes is the fact you can raft up for a squall, and can survive almost anything that could be thrown at you.

However, with one boat, I would look for long and narrow. Not real narrow, but more a 17-18 foot boat based on the ubiquitous Lynn Tuttle marathon boat, rather than the Prospector. The prospector is a tripping/freight canoe, and will be difficult to trim. With that much rocker, when you are out of trim, you really feel it, though it's carrying ability would certainly allow it to work fine. My choice would, however, have the same displacement stretched over a longer boat. That way you can move around more and get your paddles over the sides, and get the boat trimmed. The Prospector while a nice all around canoe, is not really a pond boat. And it optimizes at @400 pounds

Winsisk, Quetico, Kipewa, from http://www.greenval.com/winisk.html

or The Freedom line from Bear mountain.

Note that the key factor is the displacement. Even the largest of these boats doesn't carry 500 pounds (boat included), at it's upper end. You will not get the design performance, including stability, if the canoe is overburdened, so you have to think realistically about the load. If you and the boat/gear, weigh 300-350 pounds where do the other 3 people fit in? On the other hand, families grow up fast, maybe you need to build the boat you will use for the 40 years that follow the next five. A reasonable boat for the pair of you. Hey if the kids are really good you can offer them a ride. kids don't care if you make it too easy.

[Dan Lindberg]

TC used a lot of words but I'll echo his, 16 is a bit short for that load, 17 is better.

Prospectors are good designs for hauling heavy loads, but can be a handfull when lightly loaded. Lots of reports of folks dumping them on 1st paddles.

After building 2 Winisks and a Quetico in process, I wouldn't recommend them for you.
At least the W (and I suspect the F) is a serious tripping canoe and is very tender initially, not the thing to take families in.

The Q might be better as it's more stable.

I think a better design might be the NW Tripper at NW canoe. See the link. http://www.northwestcanoe.com/store/product.asp?product_id=NWC10003C

Dan

[Todd Bradshaw]

I think this is Lynn Tuttle's great grandfather Ernie testing an early version of the Cruiser in those early years around Batavia, well before they put a crew limit on canoes entered in the Fox River race. ;)
(photo from "The Bark Canoes and Skin Boats of North America" by Adney and Chapelle)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid167/pf4a5ec85e1ab21e32de21722a5e63698/f43a1599.jpg

I can't really think of a single 16 footer that I would say paddles well with two adults and 100 pounds or more of kids aboard. Some will do it and have enough freeboard to be considered "safe" (whatever that is) but most will be slow to accelerate, slow to turn, feel heavy to the paddle and be fairly vulnerable to any kind of chop, motorboat wake, etc. At least you wouldn't have to worry about it blowing around much... but it really won't be canoeing at it's best.

The same load (or even just the two large adults) in a seventeen to eighteen foot canoe would certainly be better, especially if it's a design made for tripping (meaning load-carrying capacity and a dry ride through waves, even when loaded). In addition to some designs already mentioned, the 17.5' Atkinson Traveller, the 17'&18' Hazen Micmacs would all likely be much better choices if you can fit them in the Garage.

Planning for the kids being content for long while sitting in the bottom can also be a very short-lived phenomonon. Unfortunately, they get bored and they generally grow quickly. Pretty soon, they want their own boat and a real paddle, not one of those 3' kiddie paddles, so you might as well start thinking about expanding the garage and getting a set of plans for a Bob's Special as well.

[ 05-05-2005, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[htom]

All of you in even a 17' canoe is going to be crowded and slow, and it's going to get worse as the years go on. You (or I) almost need a 16' for a solo boat for ourselves. If you really want only one canoe, I'd look at some of the 17'-18' tripping or expedition canoes. It won't be too many years before you'll want two, one for you and her, one for them.

Looking at Bear Mountain, the 17'9" Freedom, the 17' Nomad, or even the 19'9" Chaa Creek (no, on third thought, not the Chaa Creek, kids and a 33" maximum beam won't do well.)

[Todd Bradshaw]

...which brings up an interesting question. Why is it - that the standard reasoning of nearly all humans seems to be to first, decide what you want to do with a canoe, or what you want to put in it - then decide seperately what size canoe you will build or buy - and then be disappointed, dissatisfied, in denial or puzzled when they find out that that canoe is too small to do the job at hand?

It seems like I've been crusading for 30 years to get people into canoes that are long enough to properly do the job - to glide, turn and actually respond to paddle strokes - and sometimes trying to convince them that size does matter is quite a battle. Most folks seem to generate a mental picture that's about 2' short of reality. When you're a canoe dealer it's often much easier to sell someone a big-money construction or cosmetic upgrade (if I were you, I'd get the Kevlar one... it's only $500 more...) than it is to sell them a boat that's 12" longer then the one pictured in their mind - one which will do the intended job much better.

Of course, there is always the storage/building space limitation argument, which can be valid, but as you can see from this photo it doesn't carry much weight at my house. That little chunk sticking out of the left side of the ground floor of my garage covers the tail end of our 22' double kayak.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid167/p84096d36a672f10c2aab7edcebbbb609/f439ec6d.jpg

So Brian, be content that you are not at all abnormal in originally thinking 16', but do yourself a favor and go longer. Perhaps the root of the predicament lies in the fact that the typical garage is unknowingly built too short... ;)

[htom]

Good that you don't have a Checker Aerocar (22'6")!

[garland reese]

Or you could build a row boat. ;)

[Todd Bradshaw]

and face backwards???? Yuk!

[rbgarr]

Not necessarily....

http://www.forwardrow.com/

:D :cool:

[Todd Bradshaw]

I think the fine line between an elegant piece of marine hardware and a contraption just got blurry...

[Bruce Hooke]

Yeah, those forward facing rowing rigs always looked too clever by half to me...

As the kids get older they might like being able to shift into their own kayaks. In general I MUCH prefer a canoe to a kayak but I think kids might find a kayak easier to handle, and might appreciate the independence of going solo too. Of course you can also go solo in a canoe, and I would take that any day over a kayak, but it seems like the fun of soloing a canoe is in the subtlety of it, whereas a kayak is better at just exploring without thinking so much about what you are doing with the paddle, which might be better for kids.

[rbgarr]

If they were made of cast bronze pieces the blurriness might go away, but my question about the oar fittings is what do you do when coming alongside another boat. It looks like they could turn into gouge-a-matic devices! Sort of like those spinning blades on Roman chariot hubs. :eek:

[ahp]

My experiance is only with Old Town canoes, and there was quite a difference between one model and another. For you and your family you want stability and ease of handling in a cross wind.

Canoes vary in width, in my day, from perhaps 29 to 32 inches. Go for the wider.

They vary in the flatness of bottom. Chose flatter.

Avoid high ends. They catch the wind.

Although they may no longer be made one of the best was the Old Town Guides Model.

[Fitz]

I was going to suggest that BrianY comb the want ads in Massachusetts looking for an 18 ft Old Town Guide to restore. I have a 1940 Guide that I use Tripping and with the family. It is a very stable canoe and can handle a load. I've had two men, 3 kids, a dog, and camping gear in mine with no trouble at all. It handles very well in the chop and I can nearly stand on the gunwale. I like to paddle it solo too.

They are a common canoe and nice ones needing a little work can be found readily.

Here's a picture:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid65/p69036015066bb1a4ccc07a2feb3193c8/fbeeb749.jpg

[skuthorp]

Try searching under 'macgreggor'.
Good sea boat. Fast, sails well, carries a lot of gear, 16'7". Mine is a decked one and gets used mostly in open shallow bays that develop a short steep chop in a blow. To carry 4 you'd need an open model.
Lots of info under at least 3 of the headings here.

[Doug Canada]

General websites;

http://www.greenval.com/
http://www.bearmountainboats.com/
http://www.noahsmarine.com/
http://www.newfound.com/
http://www.pygmyboats.com/
http://www.clcboats.com/index.php

All the best,
Doug

[rbgarr]

BrianY-

I'm with Fitz on the canoe size and model. The 18' Old Town Guide he posted a picture of is the same model friends and I used to make several popular river and lake trips in Maine, sometimes carrying a substantial load. With your size, you could handle paddling solo as well.

I imagine you'd be able to find a used one in central Massachusetts or thereabouts, Check in the WantAdvertiser weeklies from the local Cumberland Farms(?), use her, and if she suited you and needed work take her to the Woodenboat School's canoe restoration course and renew what needs to be freshened up. The course is a blast.

[ 05-06-2005, 06:54 AM: Message edited by: rbgarr ]

[Dave Hadfield]

My advice is to rent a few first, and see how they go. Keep a notebook on length, width and depth. Also on how much the canoe is rockered (banana-shaped) and whether it has a keel. Then peruse the plans sites with a better idea of what you want.

My first response:

-17ft
-36" beam
-14" depth
-very little rocker, but some at the ends
-almost flat center section
-a keel

If the kids like it, you'll be building another one before long!

[Todd Bradshaw]

what's the keel for? ;) hitting more rocks? tongue.gif The Wooden Canoe Heritage Association's classified section is another good place to look. As far as the Old Town Guide, it's a great boat. I have one out in the garage. If you're looking to build, rather than buy or restore though, the 18' long by 36" beam strip-built Hazen Micmac is a much better one. It's faster, lighter, drier, has more capacity, and turns better - by a longshot - not as pretty inside though.

[Dan Lindberg]

"That little chunk sticking out of the left side of the ground floor of my garage"

Todd,

I got a real kick out of this.

A few year ago, before we built the current garage, the previous one was a bit short (22ft) to put the runabout (which had a long tougue on the trailer). So I cut a slot about 8" wide and 15" high out of the bottom section of garage door. I re-enforced the door with some angle iron and made a 5 sided "box" that I slid over the trailer tougue. The box fit vairly tight in the slot in the door. When the door was down, the garage was almost sealed and had a protrusion similar to your's. Tacky but worked great.

The new garage is 26'w x 33'l and the boat is stored crosswise against the back wall.

Dan

[BrianY]

Thanks to everyone for the input. You've given me much to think about.

[Fitz]

Here's a nice "Big" Guide on Ebay. It's a 20 footer. Probably overkill for you, but it looks to be in good condition and will carry a huge load.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23800&item=7155055465&rd=1

[rbgarr]

Be still, my heart! She's got the half-ribs, too.

(sigh)

[S & J Rowswell]

There have been a lot of good comments so far & thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth in.............. I built a Bear Mountain design (I think the model was called the Redbird) out of the Canoecraft book back in 88 & have several thousand Km's of flat, river (Class I & II) & ocean paddling on it (and a few hundred Km of portages).While I lowered the bow & stern profile to reduce windage and stretched it to 18 1/2 feet on the build, I held the beam constant. I've never wanted for anything more than a bit of additional rocker as I find her fast and easily driven, but with the long waterline, slow to turn. Since moving to Vancouver Island & starting to spend time on the ocean, I'm in process of adding a spray skirt, but have never been (unduly) concerned over stability or wanted after another canoe (but confess this fall I'll be starting on a pair of Kayaks so I (& hopefully my son as well) can do the round the Island trip).

Must say though that I've never been able to persuade anyone to spend more than an hour or two as 3rd person in the boat & don't want them to get their weight much off the floor when there..............

Even with the length, no problem with getting it on a car of any size. For many years it travelled on a Saab 900 (15 1/2 ft long) where it rode perfectly happily (I also carry a rowing shell which makes the canoe look small by comparison).

[jzeigler]

wenonah canoe has a great catalog with some very basic explanations of hull design in the beginning that will help you make a decision. They are in MN and are a great canoe company. With the short descriptions of hull shapes, and your intended use, you should have no trouble deciding what the shape should be.

Hope it helps.

[jzeigler]

incidently, I paddle marathon racing canoes as well as hawaiian canoes and also row. It is a matter of experience to get used to a boat with NO rocker. You learn to turn by leaning. And you can deal with water up to Class 2. The boats are fully carbon and weigh as little as 19lbs for the 18'6" solo version. My point is this, they are fairly stable with enough experience. So if you plan on long open water in lakes, don't have too much rocker. Tracking is a function of hull shape and rocker.