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wtarzia
06-24-2011, 11:32 PM
...When Dean Pacetti built his Slider, he put little drawers under his seats for storing snacks and other ready-to-hand stuff.

--- I built a shelf under my thwart. It was big enough to stow a bag with flares and radio, binoculars, chart, canteen, and udner it my bailing/bathroom bucket. I was getting desperate for convenient stowage in that proa hull. --Wade

wtarzia
06-24-2011, 11:38 PM
As a primary steering device I found a steering oar OK for a couple of hours but after that I was wanting a rudder. A rudder frees you up a little bit to think of other things. A steering oar is a good back-up steering device, and if you can make it do double-duty, then better still. I used mine lashed near one of the amas to carry the outboard end of my hiking seat. As Gary says, a bigger blade is a good idea. I used a stock oar blade glued into the end of a windsurfer mast, but didn't like the little blade for steering! Should have been twice the area, I thought. --Wade

rob denney
06-25-2011, 01:34 AM
I joined your Yahoo group, but lots of others might not want to jump through the hoops. Do you have the pics anywhere you could just upload them here?

Dan

Happy to, but can't find where or how. Help please.

rob

slidercat
06-25-2011, 04:19 AM
Rob, the photos have to already be on the web somewhere. Find the photo you want to put on here, right click on it, copy its location. Then when making a post here, click on the image icon above your text box, and it will give you a dialog box into which you can paste the address of the pic. Post your reply and it should show up.

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/10306322/sn/193162529/name/n_a

JimD
06-25-2011, 05:59 PM
Question for Gary: I'm going to use the 'Marquesan quick-connect' strut as you have illustrated on p 112 of your book. But the cross beams are rectangular 2x3 fir. Can I cut out a square hole in the ama strut to take the end of the crossbeam or is it considered essential to round the end of the crossbeam to allow for movement (rotation?)? I see you use round dowels.

Gary Dierking
06-25-2011, 06:32 PM
Question for Gary: I'm going to use the 'Marquesan quick-connect' strut as you have illustrated on p 112 of your book. But the cross beams are rectangular 2x3 fir. Can I cut out a square hole in the ama strut to take the end of the crossbeam or is it considered essential to round the end of the crossbeam to allow for movement (rotation?)? I see you use round dowels.
I have seen square ended ones, but I feel that the round dowel allows enough rotation to reduce the stress. I'd suggest using the Wa'apa method with a hardwood dowel glued into the end of the beam and wrapped with fiberglass to prevent splitting. You could also use a length of thick walled aluminum or stainless tube instead of a dowel. A wooden one needs to be a very strong wood like ash or oak.

JimD
06-25-2011, 09:13 PM
I'll shop for dowel. The strut is made from 1x5 doug fir, so actual finished dimentions are .75"x4.5" I was thinking of gluing on a 5"x5" block to double the thickness where the dowel goes through. Although I suppose that might just tranfer more stress to the dowel.

wtarzia
06-26-2011, 10:32 PM
Just back from the Wooden Boat Show at Mystic. This year was multihull-light (or absent). My last attendance two years ago had a visit from a big Wharram catamaran (with Wharram and Boon aboard -- I think I chatted with both not knowing who they were for about 20 minutes :-), a 26 foot Wharram built in Maine, and a couple of displays of small kayak-sized outriggers. This year none, although a couple of people were sailing their small kayak-trimarans around the river a lot -- one guy had a tiny gaff rig and jib that despite the almost toy-size moved his kayak-maran well enough -- at about the speed and windward angles that matched the 12 foot gunter-rigged cat-skiff I had rented to sail around. The other kayak-tri was a more substantially rigged boat, and I liked its amas, which had good volume because they had V-shape only on the bottom above which straight topsides to the decking made for good volume. Fancy stayed carbon-mast rig, too.

Had a chance to meet Dan Noyse and his wife Lauren by the fine Alpha Dory that is his favorite boat and saw the model of his fascinating hydro-plane outrigger thingie (oops, that is another thread), although he reported his group of child builders did build a few proa-model-toys. Also met by serendipitous chance the guy who runs the 70.8% website. I thought someone was suppsoed to be showing the Seaclipper Trimaran there but maybe I got that wrong. In any event, did not see it. But in general single-outriggers are in generally short supply, and if you want to be noticed, they are still the boat to sail :-) but of course the general boating public will often think it is a catamaran :-( -- Wade

peterchech
06-26-2011, 11:56 PM
Nice wade! I am always surprised by how many people stick with monohulls, even after all this time. I mean, used multis are selling like hotcakes, and the only boatbuilders doing well right now are building multis, but i think that's just because there is a serious undersupply of multihulls not because of really high demand for them. It boggles my mind, i always feel a certain wonder and fascination when i climb onboard a multihull. There's just something magical about hitching a ride on the ama of a tri, or lounging in the nets of a cat, or just clamoring around my own outrigger canoe...

rob denney
06-27-2011, 11:43 PM
[QUOTE=slidercat;3030722]Rob, the photos have to already be on the web somewhere. Find the photo you want to put on here, right click on it, copy its location. Then when making a post here, click on the image icon above your text box, and it will give you a dialog box into which you can paste the address of the pic. Post your reply and it should show up.

Thanks ray. Was hoping I could put all the drawings, the weight and cost spreadsheet and the build method explanation in the same place, the same as on the Yahoo group. Not to worry, anyone who is interested will just have to join the Yahoo group.

rob

peterchech
06-28-2011, 09:13 AM
Rob do you have any smallish designs, say under 800# empty displacement?

wtarzia
06-29-2011, 12:15 AM
Today I capsized Short Dragon. I had meant to do this eventually, in the lake, as a practical test, but even better, I did it unintentionally, a better simulation of reality. I did so in ridiculously light wind and flat water, flying my ama to try to catch a large sailboat in front of me. Just as I started to go over I tried to luff-up but....

But today was the first test of the push-pull tiller pole, so you know what happened -- I pushed instead of pulled. In fact during the short cruise I was trying to get the hang of the thing, and though it is easy to remember "pull-to-[go to]port", but when faced by crisis, I found it easy to confuse this nice system. Even before the capsize I wasn't liking this thing much. It seems far less precise than a tiller -- hard to hold exactly where you want it. It does have the advantage of being to able to steer from other places in the boat, or by switching hands. Still, I find it not much more preferable to steering oar -- OK, definitely preferable but not definitively definitely. If I kept at it would have to wrap a nylon line around the aluminum pole and epoxy it on for a better grip.

The gawky looking tiller linkage used during the EC was just great -- precise steering, low forces. I might go back to it, but "gear it up" a little with shorter lever-arms on the rudder cheekpiece and the tiller horizontal hinge, since the forces were light enough with that long tiller that I think I can afford it.

The capsize was slow, I even had time to crawl around the hull as I had two full seconds to understand it was going over. The sealed masts and sails (would like to say that surface tension provides some momentary stasis force but I suppose the situation is not as a cool as that) kept the boat upright as it had during the static capsize test two years ago. This time though most of the hull was sealed in. Even so, half of the cockpit area filled up to deck/thwart level (~6 inches under the gunwales)-- a lot of water, ~20-25 gallons? And I forgot the pump and bailing bucket today! I sailed it back against the wind, stern-down, carrying ~200 pounds extra weight but still making 3-4 knots to windward.

And I have a drain plug I had been planning to install just above waterline for just such an occasion. I guess I will make plan into reality tomorrow. --Wade

peterchech
06-29-2011, 01:52 AM
Good thing this happened when the water is warm! I have been meaning to do a capsize test but haven't yet. Never really even came close to capsizing yet. Although this weekend I will be trying the new 170 sq ft sails... so knock on wood...

peterchech
06-29-2011, 02:00 AM
Btw guys this weekend my club is having the annual statue of liberty race, where contestants race the 19 miles to the statue of liberty across relatively open water, circle it then cross back. My build partner and I plan on entering it. It will be a fairly tiring day of sailing, but I want to see if the boat can make it in time. I have a theory that given my 24' waterline, even though all these beach cats are faster than us, in open water I might have the upper hand, the rougher the better. They'll be trying to slow down and pitching like seesaws. Ill be pitching much less, and feeling the rough conditions much less. In theory...

trefor
06-29-2011, 07:11 AM
Good luck, Peter! It'll be interesting to hear about.

And Wade, glad your capsize wasn't TOO eventful.

Trevor

wtarzia
06-29-2011, 10:16 AM
170 square feet, wow, Peter! Keep some intelligent meat ballast ready to move, and good luck! -- Wade

JimD
06-29-2011, 11:13 AM
What? No capsize pics?

Chris Ostlind
06-29-2011, 12:33 PM
A well setup and sailed beach cat in the 18-20' length has the ability to avoid many of the issues you describe, Peter, when it comes to pitching issues in period chop that would hassle smaller machines with less velocity. These boats can generate enough boat speed to, literally, skip through the tops of waves and bang the course with serious style points. This is especially true for the big, spinnaker/screacher boats, such as the Prindle 19, the Nacra 5.8, the Nacra 6.0, sometimes the Hobie20 and almost always, the Tornado, when it comes to available boats. I would also include many of the F18 machines in this category, though my experience with that class is limited.

There is resource material on the legendary SoCal beach cat race called the Ironman, in which Randy Smyth blasted his way back from Catalina to the beach cat start/finish line in Long Beach (some 30 miles, or so) in under 2 hours, as I remember it from way back in the 80's. It's not a straight line bash, but it is essentially down wind all the way in the right conditions. Randy got those conditions and because of his skill and the right boat, he and his crew managed to blow away the competitors convincingly.

This kind of performance would require that the skipper be able to reach and hold a fantastic overall speed in what are very favorable conditions when it comes to wave period, etc. Having a longer boat will help in that regard, as will having a very light boat. Being able to effectively generate and manage the boat speed necessary to stay out of the deep troughs as well as dealing with the wave peaks, while reducing the pitching moments, will be key. If you want to go fast, you should anticipate a very physical and tactical experience. Pushing the envelope hard will take you to the edge of the pitch pole zone as the boat will be fast enough to overtake the wave sets and you'll find yourself pushing your bow well into the back of the waves in front of you after you accelerate down the wave face you are riding. This is exciting and hairy sailing. It's also supremely rewarding if you do it right.

wtarzia
06-29-2011, 02:35 PM
What? No capsize pics?

--- No. I was expecting zero to light winds for this brief shakedown cruise, so I brought little except the GPS for speed checks, since I like to know what my sail trim is doing in specific terms. I was not even wearing my PFD at the time (nor the straps of my hat), which is rare for me; if I can feel the wind on my cheek, I always strap and clip in. But....Murphy is ever watchful! -- Wade

rob denney
06-29-2011, 10:30 PM
Rob do you have any smallish designs, say under 800# empty displacement?

The Design competition 35 footer weighs 794 lbs, so anything less than this would fit the bill.

The smallest design is a 15'ter for a couple of kids. This was briefly in production in China and a couple were built in Australia.

Now that I know the basic design works, I have been concentrating on making the build technique quicker, cheaper and lighter. Consequently, the old designs are still available, but out of date, and anything I draw today may be improved upon tomorrow. Therefore, any design would be a custom one, tailored to your precise requirements. Because the new build methods are as easy to draw as they are to build, the cost of this is not high. Add to this my desire to see more harrys built and the plans price drops even further.

Let me know your requirements and we can see what can be done.

rob

JimD
07-01-2011, 09:15 AM
Steering oars, opinions. please. On a 15 foot 'canoe' with twin 8 foot outriggers. I think I will try it. Can always change to a kickup rudder later.

What about two oars or paddles, one on each side? They could be used independently or connected by a cross bar to be used in tandem as on catamaran rudders?

peterchech
07-01-2011, 09:49 AM
Yeah chris I am not expecting much wave bashing, mostly because I have noticed that steep waves will wash over the deck and into the open forward cockpit. I dont plan on winning, really, I would be happy to just make it all the way. But some of the entrants will be hobie 16s, maybe even a hobie wave or two, and my stone age technology might be able to best those boats but maybe not :)

JimD
07-01-2011, 02:47 PM
What about two oars or paddles, one on each side? They could be used independently or connected by a cross bar to be used in tandem as on catamaran rudders?

I think this idea could have some merit to it. Wish I'd thought of it. Anyone else?

callsign222
07-01-2011, 03:03 PM
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/VaaMotuRender.jpg


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/vm1.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/vm2.jpg

This is my new 20' (6M) Va'a Motu design.

Gary, are you thinking about making this section-able friendly like your Wa'apa for storage and mobility reasons, or will it be a one-piece hull?

JimD
07-01-2011, 03:25 PM
Its a beaut

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/vm1.jpg

Dan St Gean
07-01-2011, 11:02 PM
Today I capsized Short Dragon. I had meant to do this eventually, in the lake, as a practical test, but even better, I did it unintentionally, a better simulation of reality. I did so in ridiculously light wind and flat water, flying my ama to try to catch a large sailboat in front of me. Just as I started to go over I tried to luff-up but....

But today was the first test of the push-pull tiller pole, so you know what happened -- I pushed instead of pulled. In fact during the short cruise I was trying to get the hang of the thing, and though it is easy to remember "pull-to-[go to]port", but when faced by crisis, I found it easy to confuse this nice system. Even before the capsize I wasn't liking this thing much. It seems far less precise than a tiller -- hard to hold exactly where you want it. It does have the advantage of being to able to steer from other places in the boat, or by switching hands. Still, I find it not much more preferable to steering oar -- OK, definitely preferable but not definitively definitely. If I kept at it would have to wrap a nylon line around the aluminum pole and epoxy it on for a better grip.

The gawky looking tiller linkage used during the EC was just great -- precise steering, low forces. I might go back to it, but "gear it up" a little with shorter lever-arms on the rudder cheekpiece and the tiller horizontal hinge, since the forces were light enough with that long tiller that I think I can afford it.

The capsize was slow, I even had time to crawl around the hull as I had two full seconds to understand it was going over. The sealed masts and sails (would like to say that surface tension provides some momentary stasis force but I suppose the situation is not as a cool as that) kept the boat upright as it had during the static capsize test two years ago. This time though most of the hull was sealed in. Even so, half of the cockpit area filled up to deck/thwart level (~6 inches under the gunwales)-- a lot of water, ~20-25 gallons? And I forgot the pump and bailing bucket today! I sailed it back against the wind, stern-down, carrying ~200 pounds extra weight but still making 3-4 knots to windward.

And I have a drain plug I had been planning to install just above waterline for just such an occasion. I guess I will make plan into reality tomorrow. --Wade

And that's one big reason I like the tamanu with the self bailing footwells or a safety ama that helps both prevent the capsize and empty the half full cockpit. I like the idea of the safety ama both as a good place to put a hiking seat or tramp and the possibility on not going over in the first place.

Dan

wtarzia
07-02-2011, 12:01 AM
And that's one big reason I like the tamanu with the self bailing footwells or a safety ama that helps both prevent the capsize and empty the half full cockpit. I like the idea of the safety ama both as a good place to put a hiking seat or tramp and the possibility on not going over in the first place....

--- Haven't yet to built the short akas for the safety ama. I won't take SD out on the coast with the big balanced lug until I do. Did install the waterline drain plug though, and stowed the pump and bailing bucket :-) -- Wade

JimD
07-03-2011, 12:26 PM
The 'Elementarry' from Rob and Harryproa has some serious appeal for the camp cruiser crowd:

http://www.harryproa.com/Elementarry/images/1.jpg

JimD
07-03-2011, 05:42 PM
I bet if I use my existing 15 foot canoe as a main hull and build a skinny 20 foot ama on a 9ish foot beam I could have quite a nice tent platform. I have already abandoned converting our other kayak to a sailer and have found a new home for it. That has cleared some garage space for a 20'x1' ama.:)

rob denney
07-03-2011, 08:08 PM
The 'Elementarry' from Rob and Harryproa has some serious appeal for the camp cruiser crowd:

http://www.harryproa.com/Elementarry/images/1.jpg

A couple of the race versions of this were built and get along pretty well. One of the cruisers was built and cruised the exposed Western Australia west and south coasts very successfully. Has now been sold to Thailand, was shipped there, then sailed a couple of hundred miles to it's new home.

rob

JimD
07-05-2011, 10:42 AM
First I've seen of the Drifter http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gumprecht/drifter16/index.htm :

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gumprecht/drifter12/Untitled-2.jpg

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gumprecht/drifter12/Untitled-2.jpg

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gumprecht/drifterfotos/Untitled-1.jpg

Dan St Gean
07-05-2011, 11:25 AM
First I've seen of the Drifter http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gumprecht/drifter16/index.htm :

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gumprecht/drifter12/Untitled-2.jpg

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gumprecht/drifter12/Untitled-2.jpg

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/gumprecht/drifterfotos/Untitled-1.jpg

Two other tris in the same vein to help spark your imagination are diy-tris and the W17 tri. All are simple 3 board shapes but all utilize a transom.

Dan

trefor
07-06-2011, 09:51 AM
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6003/5906414892_3591b0f0ea.jpg

Got back to work on my Wa'apa over the weekend, after hardly really touching it for the past two months. I was holding off for the epoxy purchase, but things kept popping up and cleaning out my boat building funds. I went ahead and glassed the sucker in polyester resin and cloth. I had it in the garage, already. I'm also making a new ama to replace the foam one I had shaped. The new one is going to be laminated out of four cheap 12' 2x6s, with the two middle planks hollowed out to create an air chamber about 2" wide and 3" tall. Should be similar to one I recently saw on Mr. Dierking's blog (http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogspot.com/2011/06/junior-high-waapa.html).

Hopefully it won't be ridiculously heavy and negatively buoyant. :)

Trevor

peterchech
07-06-2011, 09:57 AM
A video of some sailing I did this weekend. Had some problems getting adequatedownhaul tension in the lug, and with flutter in the leach of the jib, but still had enough power to nearly bury my 100% ama! Notice the new quarter rudder, daggerboard, stays and tarp covering the open front section to try and keep out some of that spray. Also notice our weight concentrated aft and to windward, keeping the ama from burying and the bottom of the stem just skimming over the top of the water. We were soundly beat by the beacgcats we were "racing" against, but I think u can see that we had every bit as much fun as they! Next step, I may try a different mainsail type, as the boom blocks the daggerboard from raising when u strike ground, and because it isn't close winded enough imho for a multihull that has apparent wind always in front. Im also considering a trapeze, that would be fun and help flying the ama!


http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/peterchech/DSCF0467.mp4

wtarzia
07-06-2011, 11:33 AM
...Hopefully it won't be ridiculously heavy and negatively buoyant. :) ...

--- I sailed my old proa (14 feet long, 6.5 feet wide) with a near-neutral-buoyancy ama. It was very interesting. It was made of 3/4 inch pine planks, with a couple of Dow foam blocks inside but otherwise made to flood with water. I wanted to experience an outrigger behavior a little more like a native log-outrigger craft (this was my shunting crabclaw proa). I estimate it had 50 pounds of displacement.

The first time I launched it this way was a very rough small-craft-advisory day. I launched it partially because I had alerady driven an hour to the ramp and spent 40 minutes setting up....and then this fellow comes over and is effusive in his praise for my guts to sail in that stuff (just when I was starting to lean to a no-go decision). Hell, now I HAD to go.

I pushed off into two footers that only worsened. A hundred feet out, the 20 knot wind hit and did not let up. And I noticed this kind of sickening motion to the proa -- not sea-sickening but rather the feeling that this was a disaster machine. I felt that way because the previous ama had had over 200 pounds of displacement and though crude and 'slappy', it had given a lot of confidence. Now all that confidence was gone inside of 15 seconds -- I felt like I was sailing in a 22 inch wide monohul canoe! Well, not really, but it did not accord with my previous years in a pretty stable outrigger.

Of course I was scared s------s and didn't want to shunt, didn't want to touch anything. Now I was watching the ama go completely under water, all the time. But the boat was flying along through 3 foot steep seas. The ama would emerge slowly fromunder green water like a dolphin coming up to say hello, then wouldgo under again with the next wave. So my body found that instinctual niche on the side-seat -- not hiked out but more like sailing a monohull canoe.

After about 10 minutes I figured I wasn't going to die, but it took another 10 minutes to learn that the boat was doing quite well. I hiked out a little more as I saw that the ama sank slowly enough under my weight, but came up again slowly but reliably. Once clear of the water, the heavy construction and water ballast was quite enough to keep the proa from a knockdown. You surely did not want to go aback with this ama, though, so I kept a dedicated hand on the double brailing lines, ready to brail up the crabclaw in a moment when I saw the aback-bubble form on the LE of the lee-side of the sail (on that boat this got sail COE forward instantly, and the proa fell off quickly enough to prevent going aback).

I was now running out of room and had to shunt, and I did, though it was hairy with heavy 14 boom hanging out over the rough water, inducing a big roll. The end of that shunt brought me a couple of miles out to East Breakwater (New Haven, CT) where tidal current, wind, and perhaps wave diffraction through the pass and maybe reflection off the near shore (I guess) sometimes creates 3 and 4 foot pyramidal waves -- the "Sea of Teeth" I named it that day. That was my most frightful shunt ever, but it was done.

After that I thought this neutral-buoyancy ama would work anywhere as long as I remembered where I was. For the next couple of seasons I became fond of it. I knew how quickly it sank when I leaned to windward (or accidently tumbled over to ww), and it was enough for me to recover (as long as your sit-up muscles are in good working order). It really was a lot like sailing a monohull canoe because I was always in the hull (legs in foot well) and rarely sitting more than a foot over the 22 inch wide hull, also, the boat was giving you a lot of inputs, and I felt a little more part of the sailing motion.

This latter subjective observation is often the argument some monohull sailors give against outrigger craft, which they see as offering more of a "mechanical" sailing experience -- I suspect they have not sailed much with the need to be hyper-vigilant for a unrecoverable capside or a diagonal pitch-pole as an ama buries, but there is something to their belief, considering the reduced range of motion an outrigger can have. Or should I say, different velocities of motion -- a monohull having more of a linear rolling velocity change, and an outrigger having one that a calculus integration can be applied to -- our motions are more sudden, accelretae quickly by the end, and are more catastrohic if the "math" of the motion is misinterpreted. I sometimes switch to a small monohull and take delight in its own motions and required habits, and then get back into my outrigger and delight in its own character. In contrast lies true holistic experience and knowledge.

In light wind I wedged the paddle over to leeward and sat on the blade (some minimal hiking board is better; paddle not recommended unless you retro-reinforce the paddle with glass, but it worked and I carried one less piece of gear). Then my weight lifted the flooded ama and gave me a half a knot or knot speed increase. This was a welcome break from sitting sideways to windward all the time.

Though the next boat (Short Dragon) was to be a tacking outrigger with a sealed 100% ama, I was glad for this experience. Sailing with the near-neutral-ama provided a very non-Western sailing experience, one that was a little closer to native Pacific proa sailors. Just give yourself an afternoon to get used to the more-easily-sunk ama (if that is how yours will end up). I don't recommend first test in SCA weather, but "that which does not kill you, makes you stronger" :-) -- Wade

JimD
07-06-2011, 11:41 AM
A video of some sailing I did this weekend...

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/peterchech/DSCF0467.mp4

Nice! :)

trefor
07-06-2011, 12:29 PM
Thanks for the encouraging words, Wade. It's always nice to hear from those with a working knowledge of what you're hoping to accomplish with your own efforts.

I'll hopefully just be using the timber ama as a temporary measure until I can afford to finish up the foam one. I just want to get the d@mn canoe on the water, already! Kinda hard to accomplish on a boat building budget of peanuts.

Trevor

peterchech
07-06-2011, 01:49 PM
To each his own, but if trevs boat is gonna be a tacker the neutral buoyancy ama may not work so well. If u see my video I am almost burying a 100% ama despite both crew sitting out to windward. A simple ply ama could be built without epoxy using a chine log, costing "peanuts", if need be....

Dusty Yevsky
07-06-2011, 02:29 PM
A video of some sailing I did this weekend. Had some problems getting adequatedownhaul tension in the lug, and with flutter in the leach of the jib, but still had enough power to nearly bury my 100% ama! Notice the new quarter rudder, daggerboard, stays and tarp covering the open front section to try and keep out some of that spray. Also notice our weight concentrated aft and to windward, keeping the ama from burying and the bottom of the stem just skimming over the top of the water. We were soundly beat by the beacgcats we were "racing" against, but I think u can see that we had every bit as much fun as they! Next step, I may try a different mainsail type, as the boom blocks the daggerboard from raising when u strike ground, and because it isn't close winded enough imho for a multihull that has apparent wind always in front. Im also considering a trapeze, that would be fun and help flying the ama!


http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/peterchech/DSCF0467.mp4

Peter,
I couldn't make out the GPS in the vid. What was your top and average speed? Did you keep up with any of the smaller cats?

peterchech
07-06-2011, 04:13 PM
Dusty, I sustained 7.5 knots on that video, in relatively light winds. The guys in beach cats got out on traps and zipped by me, at least 2 knots faster. I was having trouble adjusting my sails though, and couldn't get them to set well. So that could be part of it. My boat is very heavy and draggy as well, due to its sectionality. The day before I was hitting 8 knots under main alone, in much more wind and with a better set of sail. I dont think the boat can go much faster without burying the ama, unless I install a trapeze myself or unless im running downwind. Next year I may try out a 200% ama that extends further forward, but that would add more weight.

My recommendations for anyone building the 24' tacking version is to build as light as possible, and deck over the entire end sections leaving a footwell for paddling. The quarter rudder works great and is a quick build. The low freeboard of the boat means lots of bailing in the ends without. decking. The scenter section stays remarkavbly dry though. I was out in some 4-6' swells for a few hours and they came close to broaching the stern a few times, again partially due to weight but mostly due to low fretboard. This boat needs lots of sail area, and the addition of a jib allows me, finally, to tack reliably in even the lightest winds. It requires some stays though, but is very worthwhile imo. That's what I see after a weekend of sailing in varied conditions, from absolute calm to 15 knot gusts in heavy chop. Lake sailing may have less stringent requirements though.

wtarzia
07-06-2011, 04:35 PM
To each his own, but if trevs boat is gonna be a tacker the neutral buoyancy ama may not work so well. If u see my video I am almost burying a 100% ama despite both crew sitting out to windward. A simple ply ama could be built without epoxy using a chine log, costing "peanuts", if need be....

--- Yes, for tacking the neutral bouyancy does not work out well. I was thinking shunting only. Plenty of native craft were tackers though, with un-100% amas. He'd still get a "native experience" so to speak while the light ama was coming together. My quicky "get it on the water fast" ama was a square torpedo made of ply, ugly but functional, light, and buoyant. I did not even deck it over but instead filled with foam blocks lashed down. -- Wade

DriftingSon
07-07-2011, 01:19 AM
Got a little more headscratching done on the fishbox/subfloor of the aft hull of the Wa`apa. The top center stringer is just laying in place at the moment, but I will be cutting notches into the three supports to receive it soon, then everything will be decked over with more 4mm ply. The access hatch will be between the midsection and the first form. I plan on laying 1" rigid foam on the bottom and sides between the forms and then sealing all with resin to provide a smooth, insulated surface to slide the fish onto, and to make it easier to clean.

What would you folks suggest for scuppers above the subfloor? Simple holes, or the type (can't remember the name) that try their best to keep water from coming back in?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5315/5910884461_fc93100963_z.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6003/5910884939_e79e5eb8cc_z.jpg

Gary Dierking
07-07-2011, 03:16 AM
[QUOTE=What would you folks suggest for scuppers above the subfloor? Simple holes, or the type (can't remember the name) that try their best to keep water from coming back in?
[/QUOTE]

Use simple holes at least 1" diameter with optional clam shell vent covers like these: http://www.boatingstore.com/us/index.html?target=products&product_id=9742

JimD
07-07-2011, 08:17 AM
Edit: This may be the only forum in the world that won't allow links to Flickr! Perhaps someone can tell me what I am doing wrong. Here is the link (http://www.flickr.com/photos/15415404@N03/sets/72157627136216820/) to the pics....

Nice work. The photo's say they are copyrighted.

Rob Kearney
07-07-2011, 08:40 AM
I've got some Wa'Apa photo's over on Flickr also and have not been able to link them into any of the threads here. I dug around on the Flickr site a bit and it appears that you need a Pro account ($25) to be able to link to those photo's from other sites. I just checked again but Flickr's changed the site a bit and I can't find the same info. I know some folks here are linking to photo's on the Flickr site. Perhaps they can confirm if they have Pro accounts or not.

Chris Ostlind
07-07-2011, 08:48 AM
Rob... DS,

I use a copy and paste routine to post imagery. Seems to work with no hassle at all.

http://www.lunadadesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Corsica15-RR-aft-water-level-w-450x224.jpg

trefor
07-07-2011, 09:15 AM
Edit: This may be the only forum in the world that won't allow links to Flickr! Perhaps someone can tellme what I am doing wrong. Here is the link (http://www.flickr.com/photos/15415404@N03/sets/72157627136216820/) to the pics....

testing this out, since they're not part of my flickr account. i'm just copying the image's address and pasting it into the message with the little square "insert image" icon above the posting window

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5315/5910884461_fc93100963.jpg
what it looks like before i paste it in, http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5315/5910884461_fc93100963.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6003/5910884939_e79e5eb8cc.jpg
what it looks like before i paste it in, http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6003/5910884939_e79e5eb8cc.jpg

-trevor

Rob Kearney
07-07-2011, 10:42 AM
Thanks, Chris and Trevor. I'll give that a try later

peterchech
07-07-2011, 10:42 AM
Looks good driftingson! How do u plan on installing the bolts? Inside the livewell?

wtarzia
07-07-2011, 12:41 PM
Use simple holes at least 1" diameter with optional clam shell vent covers like these: http://www.boatingstore.com/us/index.html?target=products&product_id=9742

--- I bought this really stupid scupper thing, didn't use it. A plastic flange, which is OK, sandwiching a rubber flapper valve that does not impede water going out or in (not OK). Would be good to make a hole in the hull, then a hinged fitted cover on the outside? Although I never thought of the clamshell cover on the outside; that would slow down errant splashes from coming in and aid draining while sailing; nice idea. Expensive versionof that idea would be an Andersen Bailer? -- Wade

wtarzia
07-07-2011, 12:45 PM
Just finished the blank for a 5 foot long leeboard, 1.5 inches thick, 15 inches wide. I wanted to get closer to 4% of my sail area to try to improve my windward angle made good, but I didn't want much more than 3 feet of board hanging under the boat, so at 15 inches wide I can get about 3.7% -- actually, now that I think of it, after I cut the end of the board into more of a "Spitfire wing" rounded planform, the area will end up being less that 3.7%. I chose to double my usual thickness of 0.75 inch to get a little better foil shape. I assume a NACA 0010 is about right to aim for? -- Wade (cross-posted with proafile, which has been silent on this issue)

DriftingSon
07-07-2011, 02:09 PM
Rob... DS,

I use a copy and paste routine to post imagery. Seems to work with no hassle at all.

http://www.lunadadesign.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Corsica15-RR-aft-water-level-w-450x224.jpg

Don't they rejected if they are above a certain size?


Looks good driftingson! How do u plan on installing the bolts? Inside the livewell?

The lower bolts can be accessed through the hatch.

Trevor- That is exactly the process I was trying to use. I know there must be some silly little setting to change somewhere- just have to find it.

DriftingSon
07-07-2011, 02:25 PM
Nice work. The photo's say they are copyrighted.

Thanks Jim- That makes sense, and tried changing the copyright settings but still not getting anything to show up. Will keep playing with it...

trefor
07-07-2011, 02:30 PM
Trevor- That is exactly the process I was trying to use. I know there must be some silly little setting to change somewhere- just have to find it.

When I go to "quote" your original post, it shows me that you had "http://www.flickr.com/photos/15415404@N03/5910884461/" in the Image Insert code, which is the page that the photos are embedded into on Flickr. But what you need is the JPG image address.

Go to the original image page, then to "View in Lightbox", then click "View All Sizes". At this point I usually click the smaller "Medium" quality link. On a Mac, you hold Control down and click on an image and it gives you the option to "Copy Image Address". I do that and then paste it into the "Insert Image" thingy that creates the code for you.

Sorry, been working on Mac computers so long that I've forgotten all terminology. I just know how to do it, but can't explain for crap. Not at all sure how it works on DOS based computers. Maybe Right Click or something. Also, I hope none of this sounded condescending, it's certainly not meant to be.

Trev

trefor
07-07-2011, 02:44 PM
--- Yes, for tacking the neutral bouyancy does not work out well. I was thinking shunting only. Plenty of native craft were tackers though, with un-100% amas. He'd still get a "native experience" so to speak while the light ama was coming together. My quicky "get it on the water fast" ama was a square torpedo made of ply, ugly but functional, light, and buoyant. I did not even deck it over but instead filled with foam blocks lashed down. -- Wade

hopefully this won't end up being too neutrally buoyant. i've hollowed out a large section down the middle, 8 feet long, 2 inches wide and 3 inches deep. the ama will be 12 feet long, 5.5 inches wide and 6 inches tall. if it starts to fill with water, i'll drill a hole in and put a drain plug.

i roughed out the ends of the thing with a jigsaw before i glued it up. i may do the rest of my shaping with a hatchet, just for grins. since i'm getting all primitive about it. :)

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6039/5913156716_fe6b4483c6.jpg

trevor

DriftingSon
07-07-2011, 02:45 PM
Whew! Thank you Trev! That was embarrassingly difficult for a guy who has a photography degree. Got it now- thanks again, and glad to see you building again. Let's get them done and meet up for a beer halfway between us.

wtarzia
07-07-2011, 03:36 PM
hopefully this won't end up being too neutrally buoyant. i've hollowed out a large section down the middle, 8 feet long, 2 inches wide and 3 inches deep. the ama will be 12 feet long, 5.5 inches wide and 6 inches tall. if it starts to fill with water, i'll drill a hole in and put a drain plug.
...

--- That hollow will provide about 22 pounds of buoyancy.

I recommend figuring the volume of the whole ama and what it displaces. Subtract from that the weight of the ama and one-half the weight of the akas, to get a sense of what it will offer. You can also do a moment arm calculation (foot-pounds of moment from center of ama to center of vaka when rigged with akas) and compare that with the same figures for the foam ama if you can estimate its weight. -- Wade

trefor
07-08-2011, 09:38 AM
Whew! Thank you Trev! That was embarrassingly difficult for a guy who has a photography degree. Got it now- thanks again, and glad to see you building again. Let's get them done and meet up for a beer halfway between us.

Beer? I LIKE BEER!!!! What's halfway between Missouri and Hawaii? Catalina, maybe? Hell, if the economy would just come up some, I might be able to afford a Hawaiian vacation. I'd love to check out a double canoe sailing tour some day.

Trevor

peterchech
07-08-2011, 11:40 AM
Im actually planning a vacation to Hawaii in december. What island do u recommend I visit driftingson? Would u want a fishing buddy some weekend :)?

wtarzia
07-08-2011, 01:48 PM
Im actually planning a vacation to Hawaii in december. What island do u recommend I visit driftingson? Would u want a fishing buddy some weekend :)?

--- Make sure you get to the Bishop Museum no matter what! It should be regarded as a pilgrimage site :-) That, and the Viking Ship Museum in Roskilde (or any of them). When I am too decrepit to sail I hope to make my hajj to those locations. -- Wade

PS -- I am off 3 am tommorrow morning to drive south to crew for a week or two aboard a Searunner trimaran. Please wish me the luck of not being too much of a fool (a little bit is inevitable) in front of two experienced bluewater sailors. Perhaps the greater risk is coming home to tiny sailboats parked an hour from the coast, a situation that will probably hold for the rest of my life, but worse fates are possible. :-)

trefor
07-08-2011, 02:07 PM
nice wade! have fun, man! take care and give us a shakedown report on your return.

trevor

DriftingSon
07-08-2011, 03:20 PM
Im actually planning a vacation to Hawaii in december. What island do u recommend I visit driftingson? Would u want a fishing buddy some weekend :)?

The big one, of course! :) Actually, you should visit as many as you can- they are all quite different. But if you end up on the Big Island, then yes- let's go fishing! Hopefully in the Wa'apa by then. PM or email me if you have any questions for planning your trip. I had a business for 10 years in Hilo renting VW Westfalia campers to tourists- just sold it last year though. There is another company here, and one each on Maui and Oahu as well- it's a great way to tour the islands...

JimD
07-09-2011, 10:05 AM
--- I am off 3 am tommorrow morning to drive south to crew for a week or two aboard a Searunner trimaran. Please wish me the luck of not being too much of a fool (a little bit is inevitable) in front of two experienced bluewater sailors. Perhaps the greater risk is coming home to tiny sailboats parked an hour from the coast, a situation that will probably hold for the rest of my life, but worse fates are possible. :-)

Good luck and yes, we expect a full report on your return.

PulchritudinousJim
07-09-2011, 01:36 PM
I did a search here and didn't come up with much. Maybe I'm just a bad searcher, but I've noticed an amazing lack of discussion of this design. Anybody else excited?

John Harris says, " “Madness” was rescued from my procrastination proclivities by Mark Bayne and Sea Island Boatworks. Construction is now 100% complete and the boat is being Awlgripped (“Cheers” yellow) this week. Photos are on CLC’s Facebook page.http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/249418_10150202987602398_47629047397_6993947_38532 73_n.jpg

peterchech
07-09-2011, 09:29 PM
It was mentioned a while back while the boat was still under construction. I can't wait to see pics of it on the water! He was able to get the first one up to 15 knots, which is up to beach cat standards I suppose, I wonder how this one will work out...

Clarkey
07-09-2011, 09:42 PM
It was mentioned a while back while the boat was still under construction. I can't wait to see pics of it on the water! He was able to get the first one up to 15 knots, which is up to beach cat standards I suppose, I wonder how this one will work out...

I can't wait either, it looks like it will be an exceptional boat for one or two to enjoy pure sailing thrills. Every element has been well proven in other boats and it should be a well sorted design.

Having spent some time poring over the drawings it looks like the cabin could be made very habital for a singlehander on passage and the boat should be a rapid and comfortable cruiser, as long as it is treated with the respect demanded by a performance multihull.

Grzegorz
07-11-2011, 12:26 PM
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/grzegorzk/second%20Polish%20proa%20conference/2011-07-03_11-17-30_312.jpg



http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/grzegorzk/second%20Polish%20proa%20conference/2011-07-02_16-55-11_72.jpg

Grzegorz
07-11-2011, 12:33 PM
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/grzegorzk/second%20Polish%20proa%20conference/2011-07-03_11-17-36_967.jpgBY:Dhttp://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i390/grzegorzk/second%20Polish%20proa%20conference/2011-07-02_16-54-56_686.jpg

JimD
07-11-2011, 03:31 PM
Grzegorz, very interesting boat. Thanks for the pic.

peterchech
07-11-2011, 04:18 PM
Nice greg, is that a waapa there?

Dan St Gean
07-11-2011, 04:25 PM
Great story and some good experience there. I totally agree about decking + footwells. I havn't tried the 24' version, but I do like the additional freeboard of the Tamanu. Easy to add to the Wa'apa though if you wanted...but fro you it might be easier to add a deck to the ends rather than add freeboard. I've got my hulls somewhat faired up and need to either pursue the idea of a really fair hull or just get sailing. I'm really leaning to just get sailing!

Dan

Grzegorz
07-12-2011, 02:43 AM
yes, waapa is white-orange one, and is handmade with proud by myself. you can see her from safety ama side. "her"? I was told that in Polynesia proa is "he", but anyhow that`s not the metter. unfortunately I have only some pics from my telephone, I lost my camera during event (sunken? stolen? stolen&sunken? everything was possible...)
there were eight proas during II Polinesian Boats Event in Poland. It means that we had 80% of Polish proa fleet there. All but one wooden, all shunting, three of them with crab claws, four lateen sail and one "special case". four of them v-hulls, one waapa, one Tepuke - the biggest one, built by my friend Jerzy on the basis of some photos and pictures found in books, Tepuke is very different, it looks rather like a ship than a boat, great stuff. One called "Maderka" Proa is a kind of a "reversed proa" - almost flat bottom, and on the top reversed camber, rather small but very fast. And the most impressive although small one "Nietoperz" ("Bat") yellow canoe with outrigger, as a sail using a wing from paraglide. Paraglide, not a kite.
"Pjoa" proa with Janusz as Toliwaga and smaller one "Wikiwiki" with Jerzy as Toliwaga, came to the sea from a lake (lake Jamno has a cannal to the Baltic Sea). And they started beach cruising i.e. sailing along seaside, trying not to go farther than 2 miles from a shore (our local law regulations prohibit us from crossing that distance). Me myself, as my proa is not trimmed sufficiently, did not join them, instead I came on the motor boat for catching cod (with guide to have more chances - good choise - at least we found some cod fish). Seing Baltic sea from a board of relatively big motor boat I had absolutely no idea how Janusz and Jerzy had crossed a break from a beach... Baltic has a very short, stepp waves. For sure they have that what in spanish is called "cojones"...
Grzegorz

peterchech
07-12-2011, 07:48 AM
So, how does this ama flying stuff work then? I was out with my brother this weekend and we started flying the ama. We were able to keep it just skimming the surface for long distances, but keeping it flying was really difficult to sustain more than 10 seconds or so without capsizing or having the ama crash back down. Is ama-flying really done for long distances? Do we just need some more practice? Or is ama-skimming more practical?

Dan St Gean
07-13-2011, 09:05 AM
So, how does this ama flying stuff work then? I was out with my brother this weekend and we started flying the ama. We were able to keep it just skimming the surface for long distances, but keeping it flying was really difficult to sustain more than 10 seconds or so without capsizing or having the ama crash back down. Is ama-flying really done for long distances? Do we just need some more practice? Or is ama-skimming more practical?

I'd say skimming is pretty good until you get steady winds and a good crew. Beachcats can do it for a while, the key is to stay powered up and make small depowering adjustments to the traveller + hike/trap harder.

peterchech
07-13-2011, 12:37 PM
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/peterchech/DSCF0496.jpg

A nice video showing what sailing an outrigger is all about (please ignore my little brothers stupid sense of humor though :))


http://s961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/peterchech/?action=view&current=DSCF0497.mp4

Dan St Gean
07-13-2011, 02:05 PM
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/peterchech/DSCF0496.jpg

A nice video showing what sailing an outrigger is all about (please ignore my little brothers stupid sense of humor though :))


http://s961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/peterchech/?action=view&current=DSCF0497.mp4

Looks fun!

Dan

Dan St Gean
07-15-2011, 09:55 PM
Well, I got busy on my double Tamanu this afternoon and got a coat of Glidden porch and floor olil based paint on the topsides. RED. Like burn your retinas red. However, it doesn't cover well in that shade, so it started out pink like save the TA Ta's with an attitude. It did dry down ok though but needs more coats. We'll see how it turns out. Last time I used this product, I sprayed it in my garage and got overspray on EVERYTHING. Hence the foam rollers, but I'll sand it a bit between coats I think. Anyhow it feels like progress. Pics forthcoming.

Dan

JimD
07-15-2011, 11:03 PM
Have sunglasses. Bring on the pics.

peterchech
07-16-2011, 08:43 AM
I noticed that red doesn't cover well myself. Did 5 coats and still could see some dark/light spots underneath. But looks good in the sun. I agree, let's see the pics!

JimD
07-16-2011, 08:56 AM
How well certain colours cover usually depends on the base the paint is mixed from. Some colours require a clear base that is tinted to the correct colour, some use a white base. White based paints cover much better than clear based. If you have a clear based red you could be looking at a lot of (too many) coats. I won't use a clear based paint on anything. A friend told me he ended up putting 12 coats on a room in his house. Ugh.

Dan St Gean
07-16-2011, 09:41 AM
http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/peterchech/DSCF0496.jpg

A nice video showing what sailing an outrigger is all about (please ignore my little brothers stupid sense of humor though :))


http://s961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/peterchech/?action=view&current=DSCF0497.mp4

Peter, how'd your red cover on your outrigger? Whoops, just saw you mentioned it.

Dan

Gary Dierking
07-18-2011, 09:06 PM
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/vaamotu4.jpg

The Va'a Motu after 24 hours of labor. Fijian Kauri stringers, 1/4" (6mm) Gaboon plywood and epoxy glue.

trefor
07-18-2011, 10:10 PM
The Va'a Motu after 24 hours of labor. Fijian Kauri stringers, 1/4" (6mm) Gaboon plywood and epoxy glue.

It's a beauty, so far. :)

Dan St Gean
07-20-2011, 12:04 AM
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/vaamotu4.jpg

The Va'a Motu after 24 hours of labor. Fijian Kauri stringers, 1/4" (6mm) Gaboon plywood and epoxy glue.

Thanks for the updates. May we have more?

Dan

davlafont
07-20-2011, 02:30 PM
(please ignore my little brothers stupid sense of humor though :))

Yeah... you're gonna wanna find a new videographer...

Nice day for a sail though. Is this the Lug you were planning to make?

JimD
07-20-2011, 04:08 PM
Nice, Gary.

Dan St Gean
07-20-2011, 06:57 PM
Peter, how'd your red cover on your outrigger? Whoops, just saw you mentioned it.

Dan

After the third coat of red not even coming close to covering, I backtracked to primer--what I should have done in the first place after fairing. My buddy Brian was keen to see some color on it, so I caved. Anyhow, I had the paint store tint the primer a bit (what the can would hold actually) which made for a lovely shade of pepto pink. So...I now I have a nicely primed pink cat! The stuffed animal is my 5 year old daughters & creativly named "pink pink". For your entertainment...
http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/Summer%202011%20767.jpg
Red finish coat to follow hopefully this evening.
http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/Summer%202011%20771.jpg
Pics forthcoming & hopefully a nice chuckle too.

Dan

peterchech
07-20-2011, 08:28 PM
Yeah... you're gonna wanna find a new videographer...

Nice day for a sail though. Is this the Lug you were planning to make?

Yes that is the Lug. My gratitude to Todd Bradshaw.

SteveMSA
07-22-2011, 04:28 AM
Nice, Gary.

I disagree completely, what Mr. Dierking has done here is definitely NOT nice.
After spending way too much time on his website and doing ridiculous amounts of research on proas and tacking outriggers, I bought his book. Which was, by the way, also not nice. How can he put plans of THREE boats in one book - I`ve now read it through several times and STILL can`t decide which one I`d like to build first. You see, you can`t just have ONE.
No, this new design of Gary`s is deeply disturbing. Because now, I must wait until he has produced plans for it, and then I have to decide which one to build first, out of FOUR designs.
This is most unreasonable of him.

:D

JimD
07-22-2011, 10:13 AM
I disagree completely, what Mr. Dierking has done here is definitely NOT nice.
After spending way too much time on his website and doing ridiculous amounts of research on proas and tacking outriggers, I bought his book. Which was, by the way, also not nice. How can he put plans of THREE boats in one book - I`ve now read it through several times and STILL can`t decide which one I`d like to build first. You see, you can`t just have ONE.
No, this new design of Gary`s is deeply disturbing. Because now, I must wait until he has produced plans for it, and then I have to decide which one to build first, out of FOUR designs.
This is most unreasonable of him.

:D

Gary can be like that. Sometimes life requires a big heart.

JimD
07-22-2011, 10:14 AM
After the third coat of red not even coming close to covering, I backtracked to primer--what I should have done in the first place after fairing. My buddy Brian was keen to see some color on it, so I caved. Anyhow, I had the paint store tint the primer a bit (what the can would hold actually) which made for a lovely shade of pepto pink. So...I now I have a nicely primed pink cat! The stuffed animal is my 5 year old daughters & creativly named "pink pink". For your entertainment...
http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/Summer%202011%20767.jpg
Red finish coat to follow hopefully this evening.

Pics forthcoming & hopefully a nice chuckle too.

Dan

You'll just have to call it the Pink Panther.

Dan St Gean
07-22-2011, 02:07 PM
I disagree completely, what Mr. Dierking has done here is definitely NOT nice.
After spending way too much time on his website and doing ridiculous amounts of research on proas and tacking outriggers, I bought his book. Which was, by the way, also not nice. How can he put plans of THREE boats in one book - I`ve now read it through several times and STILL can`t decide which one I`d like to build first. You see, you can`t just have ONE.
No, this new design of Gary`s is deeply disturbing. Because now, I must wait until he has produced plans for it, and then I have to decide which one to build first, out of FOUR designs.
This is most unreasonable of him.

:D

Just built them all! I'm done the Ulua, the tamanu, and now have to think hard about the new design idea since it's so tempting...

Dan

Dan St Gean
07-22-2011, 02:09 PM
I'm already over the pink except for a bit of deck that has yet to be painted.

Dan

wtarzia
07-22-2011, 02:31 PM
I am just returned from a great week poking around the Chesapeake on a 31 foot Searunner trimaran. I think I could become used to that! This is a cruising tri designed for safe cruising with family/friends rather than speed, and it was a good lesson in design trade-offs. This boat handled like a dinghy: you want to go somewhere, swing the tiller, adjust sails, and go there, no fuss. The four foot long kick-up rudder has a lot of authority and especially lends confidence surfing downwind. We tacked, reached and ran in everything from light air to brisk. The tri seems to like 7 knots, though we reached just over 10 in a run in 15 knot winds.

The autohelm was used most of the time, so the three of us crossed and re-crossed the Chesapeake, chatting, eating, drinking, napping, spinning yarns, and for me and my fellow guest-shipmate, practising coatsal navigation, comparing our LOP's with GPS, and in general, living the good life. The 9 horsepower 4-cycle outboard, raised and lowered on a pod under the wing-structure aft, pushed us along at 6 knots in occasional calms or while motoring up river looking for anchorages.

I really liked this design -- space was used effectively, hand grips where you need them, winches and cleats arranged for rapid unconfusing trim, and the sails big enough to move the boat well but not so big as to make every sail trim nerve-wracking. The big genoa did require a little attention when tacking to make sure the lazy sheet was slack and free to let the genoa shift over. What I though remarkable was the home-made roller-furler on that genoa -- it worked flawlessly and probably saved the owner/builder about a thousand bucks I should think!

Along the way we visited the skipper's friends at a boatyard and an anchorage -- the boat yard was was devoted to the repair and construction of multihulls. I saw a Searunner 50 catamaran being built for chartering, and the famous (in the multihull world) trimaran "Running Cloud" being overhauled (built in 1972, it was ahead of its time, I was told). Its huge hollow mast was built of fir and still sound. Also saw there a Marples 50-foot trimaran, looking very space-age. At the next anchorage I saw saw two Chris White designed catamarans, a 42 and a 55. I do not much like catamarans (personal bias, merely), but, man, Chris White did something right with these two. They are functional and beautiful. What is very alluring in these designs was (1) the open cockpit in front of the enclosed cabin, so if you want a clear view or to sail in the clean air, you go forward and do so, sitting down in a protected cockpit if you want, or higher on the wing surface. The mast is right in front of this cockpit, with all lines available. In heavy weather, walk aft into the cabin and steer from there; and (2) the cabins do NOT extend across the whole boat, so the overall effect is of a trim-looking catamaran. The cabin of the 42 footer merely needs a pair of "swellings" out to the sides to allow headroom for the companionway going down into each ama. The 55 footer, built by Mark Dionne who lives aboard, is intended for chartering (when it is finished). It has more room than my little house, I think, but avoids, like the 42, the look of those grostesque catamarans with too-large cabins. But enough -- with prices in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, they are fantasy boats as far as I'm concerned :-)

Funny anecdote: when the owner and his girlfriend learned that my shipmate snored all night and I had been losing much sleep, they insisted I sleep on the huge spectra tramp net that extends across much of the front of the 55. So I slept there on this giant bed, possibly the most comfortable bed I ever slept on, with a breeze blowing the bugs away, and I awoke at dawn with the blanket soaked in a heavy dew and to the calls of crows and ospreys begining the their morning rant -- precious!

Now, back to small outriggers and a different kind of life. This taste of cruising was a great thing (my first experience of it on a sailcraft), but it in no way reduced the different experience of a small outrigger sailing canoe where everything is more imemdiate -- and that too is a great lesson. -- Wade

PS -- I see that in my absence Gary Dierking built most of a new hull in 3 days that would have taken me a year to get at! Go Gary!

JimD
07-22-2011, 03:37 PM
Thanks for the report on the Searunner, Wade.

Dan St Gean
07-22-2011, 10:19 PM
I had a similar experience on a Malcolm Tennant cat that was a heavily modified Tourissimo 10 in BC with fellow proa nut Kevin. The owner builder was keen to get some final sailing cruises in before he "retired". His 36' cat was called Gilbert & Sullivan and was HOT. Like 18 knots off the wind without spin hot. Like massive wingmast hot. Still a comfortable ride though with the exception of a bit of slamming in some nasty conditions. Like you I prefer the immediacy of small beachcruisers for my tight budget.

Now for a paint saga....

I decided to paint the Tamanu huils red and after doing a half a$$ed fairing job I was rushed by the owner of the other hull of this outrigger turned cat into laying down some color. Without repriming the brown fairing mix. Two coatl later it was apparent it wasn't going to cover, so I backtracked to a nicely tinted oil based primer seen above--aka the pink panther. After rolling and topping a couple more coats of Glidden Porch and Floor I moved on to the deck which was to be white. I rolled the deck of one hull and as I finished it up saw on the can *water and soap cleanup*! I'd been bamboozled by the big box...their paint chart said oil gloss or Enamel semi gloss. Guess which one I wanted? Guess which one I got...yeah...5 coats later I still have a flat red boat. I'm pissed at the box store and at myself for not checking the paint order more carefully.

So...I get to buy some new paint. Thankfully the big box with the HD initials were great about the return. However, they no longer stock gallon size oil paint in that brand. I went to the Glidden store, and they said that due to some new laws they no longer sell gallons and the pints are 25 bucks! Now what? Pay Kirbys shipping + hasmat or take a treck up to a Waste Marine store? Order a better epoxy paint like system 3? Go with interlust perfection and highlight just what a rush these hulls were built under?

Thoughts?

Dan

Dan St Gean
07-23-2011, 11:14 PM
Pics forthcoming & hopefully a nice chuckle too.

Dan

Well I ended up solving my own problem thanks to the paint guys I talked to and Dave Carnell via the WBF search option. I was able to find a gloss porch and floor enamel that will work just fine for my uses. I painted it on the deck and will get back to it once I use the boat a bit up in Northern WI. In the meantime it'll be ultra white decks and footwell floors and mickey mouse red Behr porch and floor enamel.

Dan

JimD
07-24-2011, 10:16 AM
You put gloss on the deck?

Dan St Gean
07-24-2011, 03:58 PM
You put gloss on the deck?I did, but I might rethink that if there's too much glare. Might change to an oyster white too if that's the case. Looks good in the meantime though. I havn't put the gloss red on the hulls yet--still semi gloss that looks pretty flat to me. More pics forthcoming.

Dan

peterchech
07-31-2011, 10:17 PM
A waapa sail report if anyones interested:

Well we hit 9.3 knots today no sweat on a reach, with the ama just skimming and both myself and crew hiked as far out as possible on our windward "plank". Before that we had some serious mainsail set issues. After moving the downhaul forward on the boom we got a much cleaner set and started hitting some decent speeds. I am beginning to think that a lug is just too powerful and not fast enough for multihulls. With the wind to starboard, in some steep short chop and some pretty rough water we were burying the ama every ten seconds or so but only hitting about 6 knots. I've never seen the aka bent like that, the mast either....

I think the lug was overpowering the boat, giving "torque" but not speed. Anyway, nothing near a pitchpole, the ama just submerged and came ba k up.Big amas for big conditions has to be my mantra though. A smaller ama would have kept our speed unnecessarily low...

We nearly did a huli after tacking though. We didn't move our weight to the ama side ahead of time, so when the wind filled the sails after recovering from the tack the ama flew and the boat got at least to 45 degrees. I jumped up and put my weight on the ama, and we were just able to recover. Nerve wracking in the rough conditions we were sailing in! If I ever built another waapa, besides decking the ends and building light, I would make it a trimaran. Just less stressful :-)

Dan St Gean
07-31-2011, 10:36 PM
A waapa sail report if anyones interested:

Well we hit 9.3 knots today no sweat on a reach, with the ama just skimming and both myself and crew hiked as far out as possible on our windward "plank". Before that we had some serious mainsail set issues. After moving the downhaul forward on the boom we got a much cleaner set and started hitting some decent speeds. I am beginning to think that a lug is just too powerful and not fast enough for multihulls. With the wind to starboard, in some steep short chop and some pretty rough water we were burying the ama every ten seconds or so but only hitting about 6 knots. I've never seen the aka bent like that, the mast either....

I think the lug was overpowering the boat, giving "torque" but not speed. Anyway, nothing near a pitchpole, the ama just submerged and came ba k up.Big amas for big conditions has to be my mantra though. A smaller ama would have kept our speed unnecessarily low...

We nearly did a huli after tacking though. We didn't move our weight to the ama side ahead of time, so when the wind filled the sails after recovering from the tack the ama flew and the boat got at least to 45 degrees. I jumped up and put my weight on the ama, and we were just able to recover. Nerve wracking in the rough conditions we were sailing in! If I ever built another waapa, besides decking the ends and building light, I would make it a trimaran. Just less stressful :-)

Thanks for the report Peter. I think you're right on the lug. Teh faster you go the flatter the sails seem to get. How about a used beachcat rig with the top cut off and a bit of a sprit like Gary's yellow Tamanu? I've had good success with my H18 rig on my Tamanu cat.

Dan

PeteCress
08-04-2011, 09:36 AM
"Deltro" as in http://www.wingo.com/proa/deltro/index.html

D (http://www.wingo.com/proa/deltro/index.html)oes anybody know the fate of this design?

I'm guessing it never made it to production, but wonder if there are plans available.

wtarzia
08-04-2011, 08:56 PM
Peter, sounds like good sailing! Consider a stiffer mast for the lug. The lug gets draft put into it as the mast bends, unlike marconi type sails which usually become flattened (de-powered) as the mast bends. So the lug is becoming more powerful just when you wouldn't mind if it were becoming less powerful!

Just returned from a light-air cruise out of New Haven, where I shelled out $130 for a season pass to the ramp (this is per boat, sticker goes on boat, got 2 boats, then you have to buy 2 stickers). Last summer it was $10/day $50/season. Man was I pissed when they wouldn't take a credit card, had to find an ATM or waste 3 hours of prep and driving time...-- Wade

Dan St Gean
08-04-2011, 11:19 PM
Peter, sounds like good sailing! Consider a stiffer mast for the lug. The lug gets draft put into it as the mast bends, unlike marconi type sails which usually become flattened (de-powered) as the mast bends. So the lug is becoming more powerful just when you wouldn't mind if it were becoming less powerful!

Just returned from a light-air cruise out of New Haven, where I shelled out $130 for a season pass to the ramp (this is per boat, sticker goes on boat, got 2 boats, then you have to buy 2 stickers). Last summer it was $10/day $50/season. Man was I pissed when they wouldn't take a credit card, had to find an ATM or waste 3 hours of prep and driving time...-- Wade

That stinks Wade. Municipalities are constantly looking for new sources for revenue and hey, why not get it from boaters--they've all got money! It's similar in Sanibel where my in-laws live, but the sticker goes on the car and you can launch any boat you want and leave the car and the trailer for up to 48 hours. That sticker for residents is 100 bucks for the year, but at least the boating season is longer...On the flip side the local area chain of lakes in Chicago has a boat sticker to use that stretch of the river--even though on either side of it you can boat for free depinding on what you're launching. Waterfront developmnet is frustrating at times.

Dan

PeteCress
08-07-2011, 10:18 AM
Looks like a single Hobie 16 hull works bidirectionally: http://www.mit.edu/people/robot/oldhome.html. (scroll down to "Hobenstein Proa") or just the photo: http://tinyurl.com/3hdsxcc (http://tinyurl.com/3hdsxcc)

The next step would seem tb to cut two hulls roughly in half and join the bow halves to get a better look - although I am not sure if it would give more, less, or the same floatation....

Is this even possible?

Decomposing it into three tasks:
Cut the hulls at the exact point where the ends will precisely match up.
Jig the halves so that the leeward surface forms a smooth plane.
Join the halves.
Seems like 1 and 2 would be no problem to somebody who knows what they are doing. (although that's not Yours Truly....)

#3? Cutting out a rectangle in the decks would give room to work - and, from what little I know about repairing delaminated pylons on 16's I'm pretty sure the rectangle could just be dropped back in place bedded in fiberglass cloth/resin.

But could scarfing the two halves give the strength needed to avoid a vaka folding amidships under way?

Maybe some sort of reinforcements/stringers bonded to the insides?

peterchech
08-07-2011, 10:21 AM
Peter, sounds like good sailing! Consider a stiffer mast for the lug. The lug gets draft put into it as the mast bends, unlike marconi type sails which usually become flattened (de-powered) as the mast bends. So the lug is becoming more powerful just when you wouldn't mind if it were becoming less powerful!

Thanks Wade I have noticed the mast bending alot that may be what the problem is. I don't know what to do about it though because the stays are as tight as I can get them, there is just so much flexibility in a completely lashed together boat.

You can't hand launch your outrigger at a kayak/canoe launch? Usually those are free... or how about at the beach?

peterchech
08-07-2011, 10:23 AM
Looks like a single Hobie 16 hull works bidirectionally: http://www.mit.edu/people/robot/oldhome.html. (scroll down to "Hobenstein Proa") or just the photo: http://tinyurl.com/3hdsxcc (http://tinyurl.com/3hdsxcc)

The next step would seem tb to cut two hulls roughly in half and join the bow halves to get a little more floatation (assuming that the point that can be joined is aft of amidships) and a better look.

Is this even possible?

Decomposing it into three tasks:
Cut the hulls at the exact point where the ends will precisely match up.
Jig the halves so that the leeward surface forms a smooth plane.
Join the halves.
Seems like 1 and 2 would be no problem to somebody who knows what they are doing. (although that's not Yours Truly....)

#3? Cutting out a rectangle in the decks would give room to work - and, from what little I know about repairing delaminated pylons on 16's I'm pretty sure the rectangle could just be dropped back in place bedded in fiberglass cloth/resin.

But could scarfing the two halves give the strength needed to avoid a vaka folding amidships under way?

Maybe some sort of reinforcements/stringers bonded to the insides?

If they were plywood hulls I would say use butt blocks on the flat side, and several layers of glass on the round side. Not too sure how epoxy will stick to the glass in a hobie though...

wtarzia
08-07-2011, 10:46 AM
...You can't hand launch your outrigger at a kayak/canoe launch? Usually those are free... or how about at the beach?

--- Depends on the launch. Most I have seen do not physically allow backing a trailer into the water and really require that you can carry your kayak to the water, either over boulders or to a narrow spit of mud (often too through some twists and turns). My assembled-and-rigged outrigger is ~280 pounds. I can take 80 pounds off that if I used the trimaran-inflatable-amas, but then I cannot trailer the assembled boat. Yes, I dragged it 40 feet down a sandy beach for the start of the Everglades Challenge, but this is not to be repeated too often (preferrably once every couple of years :-) --Wade

Dan St Gean
08-08-2011, 12:03 AM
No fun sailing report, but a less than fun trailering report. Coming back from my in law's cabin in WI, we were on the home stretch of a 6+ hour drive (actually 8 with kiddy stops & so forth) the driver's side trailer tire blew out. Probably happened due to having to cross some construction debris. Fun stuff dumping out ALL the stuff in the Jeep to access the jack and then realizing the jack handle is under the rear seats (and the kid seats too). At least it wasn't raining...

Dan

Wavewacker
08-08-2011, 08:54 AM
Question and hope this is the right spot. I found an AMF Cat, it appears to be about 16' and it's an old one. Would the hulls make the amas for a tri build? A main hull like a freighter canoe about 20 to 24 feet? Or, a dory style hull, 6' beam at about the same length?


The cat has all rigging, sails and is ready togo and is really cheap with a trailer.

PeteCress
08-08-2011, 09:12 AM
...to cut two hulls roughly in half and join the bow halves ...
Is this even possible?

Looks like somebody has already attempted it: http://forum.yacht.de/showthread.php?118227-Hobie-Proa.

(http://forum.yacht.de/showthread.php?118227-Hobie-Proa+)Pix only available to members, so I uploaded them to Picassa: https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/HobieProa#

(https://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/HobieProa#)More on the subject: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file/message/28169
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/proa_file/message/28169)
I think this helps redefine the question to: How to join two sealed hull sections. I was thinking in terms of joining the two sections "as-is" and then re-sealing the result. Never thought of putting a bulkhead on each section and then joining the two - which seems more logical.

Seems like my next avenue of inquiry is the kayak world - where somebody, somewhere, has to be marketing a two-piece double kayak or surf ski.

Dusty Yevsky
08-08-2011, 09:30 AM
Question and hope this is the right spot. I found an AMF Cat, it appears to be about 16' and it's an old one. Would the hulls make the amas for a tri build? A main hull like a freighter canoe about 20 to 24 feet? Or, a dory style hull, 6' beam at about the same length?


The cat has all rigging, sails and is ready togo and is really cheap with a trailer.

Check out Dick Newick's Tremolino. I don't know anything about it other than the info in these links but apparently the Hobie 16 amas were too small. They may work with a smaller vaka but I'd research this thoroughly before committing to a project.

http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=605

http://www.tremolinotri.com/

Wavewacker
08-08-2011, 09:57 AM
Check out Dick Newick's Tremolino. I don't know anything about it other than the info in these links but apparently the Hobie 16 amas were too small. They may work with a smaller vaka but I'd research this thoroughly before committing to a project.

http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/?p=605

http://www.tremolinotri.com/


Thanks much! While that's for the Hobbie, the AMF appears to be a knock-off. That's pretty much what I had in mind.

One other question, as I saw the displacement of the Tremlino was 950 lbs, can the hulls be burried some to add flotaion while under power? The idea of the tri would be for stability, less roll with some sailing in favorable conditions, otherwise motoring. Andusually there is some storage in the hulls, I was thinking that was a good spot for additional fuel. Any suggestions? Thanks

JimD
08-08-2011, 11:13 AM
Question and hope this is the right spot. I found an AMF Cat, it appears to be about 16' and it's an old one. Would the hulls make the amas for a tri build? A main hull like a freighter canoe about 20 to 24 feet? Or, a dory style hull, 6' beam at about the same length?


The cat has all rigging, sails and is ready togo and is really cheap with a trailer.
Not long ago I looked into buying an old Hobie 16 with exactly the same idea as you. Most of the feedback I got was negative regarding the suitability of the amas and I decided not to. I'm sure you could build plywood amas that would come in at half the weight and increased volume as well. I almost bought it anyway, for the sails, rigging, rudders, and other salvagable bits and pieces, though. And if it had come with a trailer I definitely would have bought it, but still not used the hulls.

wtarzia
08-08-2011, 11:19 AM
No fun sailing report, but a less than fun trailering report. Coming back from my in law's cabin in WI, we were on the home stretch of a 6+ hour drive (actually 8 with kiddy stops & so forth) the driver's side trailer tire blew out. Probably happened due to having to cross some construction debris. Fun stuff dumping out ALL the stuff in the Jeep to access the jack and then realizing the jack handle is under the rear seats (and the kid seats too). At least it wasn't raining...

Dan

--- That's something I dread. I don't have a spare tire for the trailer, only some repair/inflate cans, which only sometimes work. Good reminder to get me a spare tire. -- Wade

Wavewacker
08-08-2011, 11:25 AM
Thanks, I kinda thought so,almost three times the work! They are asking only 600 bucks and sails are in good shape. Sounds like I should get it for the rigging and hardware, put a battery box on it with a trolling mtr. and let the kids play with it as a swim platform. Don't know what I'd end up with and if the rigging and sails would be applicable for what comes next.

wtarzia
08-08-2011, 11:26 AM
Looks like somebody has already attempted it: http://forum.yacht.de/showthread.php?118227-Hobie-Proa.
... (http://forum.yacht.de/showthread.php?118227-Hobie-Proa....).

--- Just remember that new epoxy over cured epoxy (as in a modified fiberglass hull) will make only a mechanical join (latching into the scuffed-up cured stuff) to the cured surface, NOt a molecular join. That mechanical join will probably not be as strong as the one made to bare prepared wood, where the epoxy seeps in a little. I am not saying that the method will not work, just do the joining very carefully. Try to talk to somebody who has done surfboard repairs, maybe, or pose this question on the "building" forum here. Now, if you add transoms to make a bolt-up job, you can add some mechanical fasteners to incerase strength. -- Wade

Dan St Gean
08-08-2011, 12:07 PM
--- That's something I dread. I don't have a spare tire for the trailer, only some repair/inflate cans, which only sometimes work. Good reminder to get me a spare tire. -- Wade

& get one of the quick jacks that you sit on the axle & pull forward 6" to lift the wheel rather than try to access the buried jack and handle under al carload of stuff. I need to get a new spare and one of those jacks. I had what I needed, but it was a hassle. Another reminder is to check and lube your bearings--repack as necessary.

Dan

Dan St Gean
08-08-2011, 12:11 PM
Check out time anderson's version of this over at instructables. Big old yellow proa. What I liked about it was he used transomed boats to maximize the length of the proa. Lots of grinding, and some heavy glass did the join as I recall.

Dan

Chris Ostlind
08-08-2011, 12:25 PM
... Another reminder is to check and lube your bearings--repack as necessary.


And that's where Bearing Buddies, when properly maintained, can serve you well. The external Zerk fitting allows the bearing volume to remain packed with fresh lubricant under a mild bit of pressure and the bearings stay flush with grease while in use. None of the strategies involved with trailer bearing maintenance will free you from the business of taking care of things properly, but there are ways to reduce the futzy aspects of screwing around with the bearings each and every time one hauls their boat to the water. My practice is to hoist and overhaul the wheel bearings once each year for inspection. Any pitting of the races, or wobbly clicking of the bearings themselves, once cleaned... and a new set is installed. A hassle, well, maybe it is, but it's a far shake better than having that wheel come adrift on the freeway with parts scattering all over the highway along with the resultant issues with your towing vehicle.

This process was brought home to me after watching the trailer of a friend crater itself on a long drive down to Baja for a sailing week with our cats. My wife and I were waving/flashing lights, honking frantically for our buddy to pull over before he went down on the axle. Many hours later, after a couple of trips to the auto parts store near San Diego, the issues of maintenance and wheel integrity were hammered home for all involved. Pay attention to the rolling stock that takes your boat to the water.

Dan St Gean
08-08-2011, 01:08 PM
And that's where Bearing Buddies, when properly maintained, can serve you well. The external Zerk fitting allows the bearing volume to remain packed with fresh lubricant under a mild bit of pressure and the bearings stay flush with grease while in use. None of the strategies involved with trailer bearing maintenance will free you from the business of taking care of things properly, but there are ways to reduce the futzy aspects of screwing around with the bearings each and every time one hauls their boat to the water. My practice is to hoist and overhaul the wheel bearings once each year for inspection. Any pitting of the races, or wobbly clicking of the bearings themselves, once cleaned... and a new set is installed. A hassle, well, maybe it is, but it's a far shake better than having that wheel come adrift on the freeway with parts scattering all over the highway along with the resultant issues with your towing vehicle.

This process was brought home to me after watching the trailer of a friend crater itself on a long drive down to Baja for a sailing week with our cats. My wife and I were waving/flashing lights, honking frantically for our buddy to pull over before he went down on the axle. Many hours later, after a couple of trips to the auto parts store near San Diego, the issues of maintenance and wheel integrity were hammered home for all involved. Pay attention to the rolling stock that takes your boat to the water.

Good insight Chris. Every long trip I see more trailers and RV's on the side of the road with tire issues. Clearly trailers are easy to neglect, but at one's own peril if you would actually like to go boating rather than hang out at parts stores in some remote location. Another reason why my ancient trailer has bearing buddies.

Another tip is to check out the load rating on your tires. Partial inflation lowers the load rating significantly. Mine were at 37 PSI when I blew it out. The trailer hoped in the air as I had to make a lane change in a construction zone. When it came down it must have blown because I noticed it making that noise & wobble of a flat tire. However since the cat is so far under the load limit of the tires, it still rolled for a while on a total flat just with sidewall stiffness. That wouldn't happen with a heavy trailer & yet another reason I love light boats!


Future vows include having not only a spare accessable, but a lug wrench and a jack as well. All's well that ends wel as it turns out.


Dan

PeteCress
08-08-2011, 01:14 PM
Check out time anderson's version of this over at instructables.
Will do - if/when I ever figure out how to search the site.

Maybe I've been looking right at it and not seeing it, but so far have been unable to dope out the Search function there.

Posted a "How To Search" question in the "Burning Questions" forum, so I should be able to see it pretty soon.

EDIT:
Thanks again. I found his address at MIT and send a request for links.

Dan St Gean
08-08-2011, 04:32 PM
http://www.instructables.com/id/Trimaran/

That's the one I was thinking of...and a Paraw rather than a proa but cool nonetheless.

Dan

kenjamin
08-12-2011, 12:43 PM
I recently gained the ability to scan old slides and negatives from my sorted past and thought you guys would get a kick out of this dory/proa I built some thirty years ago. It was great in that it was perfectly balanced so you could paddle on the starboard side and it would track straight as an arrow. It didn't sail very well but the motor was so undependable that it was hard to relax on a fishing trip unless the sail rig was aboard also. It's downfall was the set up and take down time at the landing. Even though it didn't take a lot of time, it still gave the "No-see-ums" and other bugs plenty of time to eat us alive. I sold the boat, motor, sailing rig and trailer to my sister for $200 so I could build a single hulled dory skiff that launched much faster.

http://www.bodaciousboats.com/ProaDory.jpg

Dan St Gean
08-12-2011, 10:12 PM
Was it wider than 8'6"? Couldn't you slap it on a flatbed trailer and go? Speedy setup with multis is the holy grail, hence the folding trimaran thing, the single outrigger, and the narrow beam cat. And 99% of beachcats too for that matter--in addition to easing righting after too much fun....

Dan

kenjamin
08-13-2011, 08:56 AM
Was it wider than 8'6"? Couldn't you slap it on a flatbed trailer and go? Speedy setup with multis is the holy grail, hence the folding trimaran thing, the single outrigger, and the narrow beam cat. And 99% of beachcats too for that matter--in addition to easing righting after too much fun....

Dan

A decent sized truck pulling a nice flat-bed trailer would have been great but all I had at the time was a homemade wooden trailer and a wimpy Chevette (the worst car I ever owned) and no money for anything better.

http://www.bodaciousboats.com/ProaChevette.jpg

JimD
08-13-2011, 10:06 AM
A lot of the old Chevettes were rigged with an auxiliary sail stepped on the roof. But even so when you needed the extra power the most, against a head wind, the sail was of no use.

Petewp
08-13-2011, 08:34 PM
Peter, sounds like good sailing! Consider a stiffer mast for the lug. The lug gets draft put into it as the mast bends, unlike marconi type sails which usually become flattened (de-powered) as the mast bends. So the lug is becoming more powerful just when you wouldn't mind if it were becoming less powerful!

Just returned from a light-air cruise out of New Haven, where I shelled out $130 for a season pass to the ramp (this is per boat, sticker goes on boat, got 2 boats, then you have to buy 2 stickers). Last summer it was $10/day $50/season. Man was I pissed when they wouldn't take a credit card, had to find an ATM or waste 3 hours of prep and driving time...-- Wade

Hi Wade,

Sorry to hear about the issues with boatlaunching. Last summer anyway, I used the West Haven Boat Ramp. The lady was a doll and said I could unload on the ramp so long as I parked my car on the public street and not in the parking lot - a very very minor issue. Alas, it was free. Sailing out of that ramp is good - you parallel a peninsula for the first 300 yards or so and then its the wide open bay and its inherent chop. The fortune of the peninsula is that its a wave brake that affords good wind and flat water so by the time you are in the chop just past it, you're settled in and sailing comfortably.

Ive been so busy with the running of a new tattoo shop this spring/summer its really eaten into my building time and so the aka/ama rebuild I wanted done by my birthday [sept. 9] will not be.
Not too much a pity - Ill just sail with the other aka/ama. I wont do any heavy water work with the smaller volume 10' ama but with chop up to 2 1/2 feet and 15 knots wind its seemed stable so long as the sail is reefed properly. Its a pity - I did want the other ama finished with its higher volume and the longer 7 foot akas . The current akas as 5 1/2' so, that has its own limits and there is no hiking out from my kayak!!!! Who knows, maybe with a detachable spray barrier I can actually hike out with the high volume ama? Ive seen too much LI Sound chop at over a thousand feet from shore where the water is high and steep - maybe hiking out will never be practical from a kayak cockpit. I love all the seaworthy issues of the enclosed craft however.

Im seriously considering putting some fishing pole holders on the 5 1/2' akas as the lesser beam makes for more ease in fishing off either side where as the 7' beam requires a surf pole to clear it. I like the idea of trolling lures under a very small reefed sail area. What a blast itd be to bring home a striper while sailing eh?

Tell me whats going on Wade - what have you been up to? lol - and go to West Haven Boat Ramp finally!

Pete

wtarzia
08-14-2011, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=Petewp;3089006]...Sorry to hear about the issues with boatlaunching. Last summer anyway, I used the West Haven Boat Ramp. The lady was a doll and said I could unload on the ramp so long as I parked my car on the public street and not in the parking lot -...Who knows, maybe with a detachable spray barrier I can actually hike out with the high volume ama? Ive seen too much LI Sound chop at over a thousand feet from shore where the water is high and steep - maybe hiking out will never be practical from a kayak cockpit. ...Tell me whats going on Wade - what have you been up to? lol - and go to West Haven Boat Ramp finally!]

--- Hi Pete -- Well, with global warming maybe you will be able to finish those akas late in the season and still get in some October and November sailing. Yes, there's a lot of annoying chop in NH bay but it is good training. The first day of the Everglades Challenge this year had some of the roughest conditions, everybody was saying, and all sorts of boats dropped out, some that were undamaged even, but truthfully it seemed just like a brisk choppy day in New Haven Bay and immediately past the breakwaters into the Sound where the water piles up despite the 40 foot depths. So go out there and know that you will be ready for a lot of coastal-type annoyance short of actual storms. I do understand that I say this with the advantage of a deeper hull that protects me somewhat from some of the wetness you get in a sailing kayak -- but my boat is very wet, a regular garden-hoser. I have to wear rain stuff if the air will get a little cooler than a hot summer day, and even so I've come back wet and shivering on a few summer evenings. Armor up!

I drove by the West Haven ramp recently (right after Chick's, that one, right?). I would hate to park my car and trailer right on the road, but otherwise it's good. This is when I want one of those 60 pound 80/20 sailing canoes for the roof-top. Howard Rice et al. are making that sound very alluring. But I paid for my Lighthouse Point sticker and will go there, and it is at least as easy to get to as WH, probably easier (a good place to practice launchings in the tteth of the wind with the pier on one side and rocks on the other, you have to be ready to tack and make good windward progress immediately :-).

I sailed my outrigger twice only this summer. I was gone almost 2 weeks sailing on a big trimaran down south and generally being spoiled on big boat cruising. Came home and trailering an hour and setting up and paying $130 for a parking stikcer suddenly was depressing. But I spent down time buulding a curved laminated tiller to get around my mizzen mast and to clean up the rudder linkage back there, and I finally set up my 113 ft2 balanced lug properly. Though not much more than the 91 sf feet of my cat-ketch rig, it is taller as a single sail -- a 15 mast with the peak of the lug standing a little higher than that, whereas the peak of my cat-ketch main is only about 12 feet (and substract the hull sinkage from that). A few feet up into better air, and no power loss from the back-winding of the mizzen sail, makes a big difference. Last summer I used it once and it was amazing in 10-15 breeze, gusts to 20, also a little nerve wracking. I am consdiering making a little mizzen about 10 s.f. to help tame the big lug, especially if I have to reef. It drives my ama right under water and still pushes the boat to 9 knots in the gusts -- it needs taming. That was a lake; now I am bringing it to the coast.

The next task to make a set of short curved akas (~6 feet) to lash a safety ama on (on top of my current amas where they lash to the hull). I will use one of my 16 foot inflatable amas as the safety ama, and it will be about 3 or 4 feet out to the side. It will be lifted up so that I will usually be sailing it like a single-outrigger, but possibly it will have trimaran characteristics depending on how much I curve the akas to keep the inflatable ama out of the water when heeling. If it is too high, windage comes into play much more even if it still saves the boat from capsize.

I did capsize on my first lake cruise this summer, a slow-motion fiasco when I tried a push-pull rudder pole, and I pushed or pulled the wrong way as I was going over. F__ that, I went back to the tiller linkage and am working to improve it. But it was good capsize practise. The foot well and under-thwart filled, and I sailed back with 300 pounds of water inside, having forgotten my bailing bucket and pump on that shake-down run! (When I got back, besides putting the bucket and pump in, I installed a hull drain right above waterline as an additional measure.) Now it is raining and I didn't go to NH today, and I am here typing this, and that's what I've been doing. -- Wade

David Lowry
08-15-2011, 12:18 PM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/huskyrunnr/Waldo1.jpg



http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/huskyrunnr/Waldo2.jpg

Hi, thanks to all for a very interesting thread. I ran across it at the first of the summer and it inspired me to build some hollow box beams. The above photos are from four days ago at Waldo Lake, no gas motors and water so clear you can see down 120 ft. Just an amazing place to sail. I got a somewhat morbid kick out of the second photo. It appears the gods had set a deadfall trap for us on that little beach. We were entirely unaware of it until we got home and looked at the photos. I guess one shouldn't get too caught up in all the beauty... intentionality and all that.

David

Gary Dierking
08-15-2011, 03:43 PM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/huskyrunnr/Waldo1.jpg

What are you using to grip the halyard onto the luff spar when you have it partially rolled up?

David Lowry
08-15-2011, 04:34 PM
When I first tried reefing by rolling up around the mast (in my pre stub-mast rig days) I could never easily get a clean roll. I didn't like how the sail set. So, when I went to a stub-mast rig, I decided to try putting in two sets of vertical reef points to the luff spar with one of the points at the correct height for attaching the halyard. I blew up that photo here. I'm using a Chinook mast extension and I should have lowered it a bit, but I was lazy and left it where it was. I cannot easily reef on the fly, but I can still reef on the beach, which is very important to me as I often sail overloaded with family. This setup worked well for the gusts that came up on the lake every afternoon.

David

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/huskyrunnr/reefpt.jpg

Wavewacker
08-15-2011, 05:29 PM
Maybe it has been mentioned.....The Yellow Banana, the ET 26, is on Ebay for sale, $9,500.00 or best I guess, But it's not wood. Interesting tri...

Petewp
08-15-2011, 09:14 PM
David,

Excellent craft - looks like a dynamite design.

Wade,

Im glad your capsize went better than the first. Frankly, the whole idea scares the hell out of - not because I think Ill be hurt, but becsause I havent a clue how Id flip that heavy as hell ama the heck up into the air to right it. As a result, my sail loading and speeds are rather tame and nothing like yours. My sail can reef to 25 sq. ft. if need be and Im ok with that - though Im happy to say I havent needed it - even with the undersized ama. The 25 sq.ft. sounds awfully unimpressive but keep in mind my craft is at best, 100 lbs. Theres not that much mass to push along so minimal sail does wonders. Down side is that it has a higher chance of stalling through a tack. But really - its a kayak so a paddle assist isnt so bad - and I have sailed through tacks too. Sailing through it is the key though.

Im sailing late in the season. I was so hell bent on the new ama/aka I REFUSED the old rig to sail with and now reflecting on it, I missed some nice oppurtunities. I dont blame myself for not having the new rig done, but I do wish I used the old rig atleast.

Winter destinations...

Probably sometime in mid to late October Ill switch to lake and or river sailing ass the rie is a lot dryer than the sound. There is a pleasantness about sailing the better freshwater venues. The connecitcut river comes to mind.

Your trimaran experiences

After sailing ina trimaran yacht I feel bad for your craft! It did nothing wrong but the big tri is a hard act to follow. Its funny though how my own perceptions of what a better sailing craft is
has changed...

It used to be that I didnt GET day sailoing boats. Whats the point I mean - whats sailing without a sleep aboard cabin - where are you REALLY going if you cant have a cabin down below [even though I never owned a big sailboat I had that mind set as I dreamt of a yacht one day]. They seemed like craft only for superficial sailors.

Then one day - my dream came true. I was to get a 23 foot sailing yacht complete with cabin, even a double keel [so it would stand at low tide strandings in the Bay of Fundy]. All I had to do was vacate this old mans property of tree choppings this guy left behind a year ago and never returned. If I did it Id get the boat - the man was honest - the deal was solid.

I turned it down.

At first I was euphoric - a FREE yacht - used but excellent. The more I thought about it however the heavier the baggage got. I had a brand new family coming along, a baby daughter and all this thing began to look like was a white elephant thatd suck money out of me everytime I so much as thought of using it. Theres the mooring, a new trailor, the huge sails, the up keep. Had I been single - oh hell - Id have been living in it and possibly tossing everything and sailing off in it. But with a family it looked more and more like some humongous white elephant the kids would eventualy use as a treehouse more than any kind of boat it truly was.

I passed on the deal. The guy who cut the wood actually came back to clear the property and I never regretted not taking it. Now the true charm of daysailing bloomed within me. First off - Im not locked into a mooring. I can launch virtually anywhere. Maintenance is nothing and quite frankly makes for a neat little hobby. Everything about it is manageable and open ended too. Daysailing can be for as many nights as work allows and where here isnt a cabin, I can surely stow some camping gear. Simplicity became the seduction of daysailing and all else opened up from there.

If I made WELL into 6 figures I could see a yacht. Even then however remains the things I have issues with - even if you're moored for free in Nantucket - you're still moored in Nantucket. How easy is it to shoot up and down the east coast with a cabin cruiser compared to a small sail craft? But thats whats lost the moment the craft becomes a floating small apartment. Its luxurious, but again the baggage is heavy.

Sorry for the typos - I know they are there but Im packing it in and Im to tired to check.



To hell with that silly trimaran Wade!

Pete

David Lowry
08-15-2011, 11:26 PM
David,

Excellent craft - looks like a dynamite design.

Pete

Thanks Pete, the design is entirely Dierking.

Gary Dierking
08-16-2011, 02:34 AM
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/app2_KJ02a.jpghttp://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/app2_KJ02a.jpg1632
This is a roller reefing claw. They are seen on some older boats with roller reefing but don't seem to be available anymore. It would work well with the stub mast rig, but you'd have to make it yourself. I'd say cut it out of some 1/4" aluminum plate and put some rubber roller wheels on the ends.



When I first tried reefing by rolling up around the mast (in my pre stub-mast rig days) I could never easily get a clean roll. I didn't like how the sail set. So, when I went to a stub-mast rig, I decided to try putting in two sets of vertical reef points to the luff spar with one of the points at the correct height for attaching the halyard. I blew up that photo here. I'm using a Chinook mast extension and I should have lowered it a bit, but I was lazy and left it where it was. I cannot easily reef on the fly, but I can still reef on the beach, which is very important to me as I often sail overloaded with family. This setup worked well for the gusts that came up on the lake every afternoon.

David

Dan St Gean
08-16-2011, 10:39 AM
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/huskyrunnr/Waldo1.jpg



http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b24/huskyrunnr/Waldo2.jpg

Hi, thanks to all for a very interesting thread. I ran across it at the first of the summer and it inspired me to build some hollow box beams. The above photos are from four days ago at Waldo Lake, no gas motors and water so clear you can see down 120 ft. Just an amazing place to sail. I got a somewhat morbid kick out of the second photo. It appears the gods had set a deadfall trap for us on that little beach. We were entirely unaware of it until we got home and looked at the photos. I guess one shouldn't get too caught up in all the beauty... intentionality and all that.

David

David, your Ulua is looking great! I'm glad you joined us over here at WBF...lots easier to view photos and so forth. Anyhow, keep 'em coming!

Dan with the 21' Ulua and double tamanu

Dan St Gean
08-16-2011, 10:51 AM
There are a couple boats that might prove inspirational for rigs for these boats. The roller furling Hobies, the Raptor 16, etc. all have a nice set furled. I like the Raptor 16 setup with an aluminum Y to hold the freestanding mast and boom. I have a R16 sail I'd like to mess with, but it's hard to not use my sail I had custom built.

Dan

David Lowry
08-16-2011, 11:35 AM
Thanks Gary and Dan. As you all well know, I'm fairly ignorant of most of this, working in a vacuum except for what I can glean from Gary's book and sites like this. Never heard of a reefing claw. That looks much better. I have some hole saws that I've used to make light steel collapsible tent stoves and I bet they could mill thick aluminum if I took my time. Otherwise I wonder if a thick UHMW cutting board would be strong enough? Certainly would be easier for me to mill.

David

Gary Dierking
08-16-2011, 04:05 PM
You can cut any shape from 1/4" aluminum plate with your jig saw. I use a coarse wood cutting blade. I doubt that any plastic other than carbon would be strong enough.



Thanks Gary and Dan. As you all well know, I'm fairly ignorant of most of this, working in a vacuum except for what I can glean from Gary's book and sites like this. Never heard of a reefing claw. That looks much better. I have some hole saws that I've used to make light steel collapsible tent stoves and I bet they could mill thick aluminum if I took my time. Otherwise I wonder if a thick UHMW cutting board would be strong enough? Certainly would be easier for me to mill.

David

David Lowry
08-16-2011, 11:06 PM
Yes, I remember cutting aluminum for jigs for particle detectors for Fermilab in '84-5. Jeez, I'm glad I didn't go into that nearly extinct field. We used bandsaws. I have one, but not a metal cutting blade. I don't want to trash my wood blades. OK, it is first on the list for mods. Thanks Gary!

David

wtarzia
08-18-2011, 10:49 AM
I took Short Dragon out in New Haven harbor yesterday afternoon for a very slow 12 nm cruise (reported wind in the Sound, 4 knots, cruising average 3 knots). [Note: the NOAA weather report while I was on the water stated 4 knots somewhere out on the Sound some miles from New Haven, but when I got home to check the hourly readings on the NOAA site at New Haven Tweed Airport, the reported winds were south, from calm to 7 knots, though averaging 7 knots. I think I ought to get a hand-held windmeter to better learn about what is happening around my small space. The weather tower at Tweed is about 35-40 feet high and a little inland.] I rigged the 114 square foot balanced lug (about 23 sf more than my combined cat-ketch) as a pure cat rig (sure missed the mizzen mast as my back rest; I must make a dedicated seat back, something the air can go through). But, in those winds, I couldn't get any good performance comparison.

In theory, this rig should be a few feet higher in the better air (peak of sail about 16 feet over water, old rig peaks a little under 12 feet), and there is no performance loss from backwinding of the mizzen. As a disadvantage, more heeling force brings me closer to capsize (and my ama-center-to-vaka-center beam is about 6 feet). I think this was a better light-air sail but this is merely intuition. I did follow a 26 foot sloop with a ~quarter mile lead tack for tack and overtook it in about 30 minutes beating, which was nice, because I was having depressive issues over how well I was trimming the sail (no tell-tales on this sail).

I got some reasonably good GPS track info on tacking angles made good as I did a series of short tacks in the light wind within feet of the shore: I would tack when I was about 40 feet from the rocks on shore at Lighthouse Point, go out about 500 feet and tack again, pinching up to keep speed about 3.5 knots (which is my pinching speed no matter what the wind is, it seems) and did that many times (it was the most funof the entire cruise, actually). The track show about 60 degree angles over the bottom, which includes the leeway of course and does not say how the boat was pointing. It didn't seem to point as well as with the cat-ketch rig (leaving me wondering about the effect of the back-winded luff on the 'bad tack' of a balanced lug), but none of my GPS tracks, in any wind, have shown angles better than 60 degrees, ever.

I am still working on my bigger leeboard: it warped after the first lamination (two layers of dry 3/4 pine) so I have been flipping the board over to try to straighten it out before I hog out the basic foil shape. When I do that, I will check again for warping as the stress is relieved from the hogging, final shape, then glass it.

As I was being very lazy, sailing in zephyrs -- laying back, feet up, I saw what I though was a mass of weed, but it wasn't -- bump...scrape! I aground at mid-vaka on some flat rocks covered in barnacles, a few inches udner water at high tide south of Bradley Rock -- my mind-chart had them a 1,000 feet to the west (no marker -- this would destroy a jet-skier who didn't know about them). They were a good test for my epoxy-graphite bottom, exactly what this bottom-covering method is meant to protect against. I got off the rocks by putting one leg over and standing on them to lift the hull an inch. A quick inspection when boat was back on trailer showed some scratching but the black stuff was intact under it. I will have to get a better look by titling the whole boat up; will try to get a meaningful photograph: I know Carlos would like to see it. -- Wade

rob denney
08-19-2011, 03:37 AM
"Deltro" as in http://www.wingo.com/proa/deltro/index.html

D (http://www.wingo.com/proa/deltro/index.html)oes anybody know the fate of this design?

I'm guessing it never made it to production, but wonder if there are plans available.

I sailed it in Germany when it was first launched. I am the guy at the back in the non wave scenes in the video. The boat was a disaster. Reached ok, but would not go upwind without the guy down the back of the leeward hull working really hard to keep it on course. Relax for a moment and it would luff up and the rig fall down on the ballast crew. Also made a lot of leeway. This gets boring very quickly. It was also near impossible to steer on a run without dragging feet in the water and kicking really hard occasionally. Again, get it wrong, you gybe and the rig crashes down on the other crew.

The boat was very well built, no expense spared and some good ideas. Peter is a nice guy, loves to party, but realised that there was a lot more to do before it would be a sailing success and a whole lot of price cutting if it was to become commercial. It put me off crabclaws, weight shift steering and leeway reducing hull shapes and was instrumental in deciding that harrys should take more advantage of modern designs and less of traditional ones.

The video was shot in the harbour at Kiel in November with a northerly breeze. Probably the coldest I have ever been on a boat, which did not help me fall in love with the concept!

rob

PeteCress
08-19-2011, 10:05 AM
I sailed it in Germany when it was first launched... The boat was a disaster. Reached ok, but would not go upwind without the guy down the back of the leeward hull working really hard to keep it on course. Relax for a moment and it would luff up and the rig fall down on the ballast crew. Also made a lot of leeway.

The boat was very well built, no expense spared and some good ideas. ...leeway reducing hull shapes
Thanks for the refreshing splash of reality.

I take "leeway reducing...." tb "asymmetrical", right?

wtarzia
08-19-2011, 10:36 AM
Jim Brown built a small proa to solve some of the shunting and (I assume) downwind difficulties. Unfortunately I have photos only of the pieces, not the assembled boat. But FWI, he began with his son Russel's concept of having a jibheaded rig with mast amidships with the boom shunting around. He did NOT use dual jibs at each end, as Russ tends to do, to keep shunting simpler (he sails a lot on a river to get out to a bay, thus short-tack capability is required). Dual dagger boards at each end, like Russ's proas. Now, he did something different with the ama. It mounts to two akas narrowly spaced, and the ama moves back and forth in parallelogram fashion. Guylines control the swing. A board is in the ama. The swinging ama helps with steering and balance, though the dual daggerboards do the big work of CLR adjustment. He reports it sailed just fine, including to windward, and he'd like to develop it further when he can find the time. -- Wade

PeteCress
08-19-2011, 02:29 PM
So, how does this ama flying stuff work then? I was out with my brother this weekend and we started flying the ama. We were able to keep it just skimming the surface for long distances, but keeping it flying was really difficult to sustain more than 10 seconds or so without capsizing or having the ama crash back down. Is ama-flying really done for long distances? Do we just need some more practice? Or is ama-skimming more practical?
My experience, with Hobie 16's and 14's is that the quality of the wind plays a big part.

In Hawaii, I used to routinely fly my Hobie 14's hull all the way from off the Outrigger Canoe Club down to the Ilikai - which is a couple of miles. The wind there was steady and clean.

Sailing in New Jersey/Pennsylvania, OTOH, there's no way I could keep a hull up for that long. The wind here tends to be shifty, gusty, and dirty compared to the wind off of Waikiki - and it's much trickier to keep a hull up for any length of time.

Buncha years ago, I was sailing my 16 on a local lake when a killer gust hit and I wound up on the grass about fifty feet in from the water - squatting on the windward hull which was 90 degrees in the air... People were cheering and clapping their hands.... Luckily I didn't mow down somebody's kid....

PeteCress
08-19-2011, 08:48 PM
I've built the Malibu Outrigger and, aside from an episode of teredo worms in the daggerboard trunk and collapsing the aka attachments, it worked pretty well for me.

It was *really*heavy: the first time I'd built a boat and I over-glassed it and probably used the heaviest possible plywood.

But that was in Hawaii and I had a mooring inside the reef, so weight was a non-issue.

Now my venue is the beaches and back bays of New Jersey (USA) and I'm feeling the urge....

I'm starting to think I've become irrationally attracted to the aesthetics of the T2 and that another design might be more appropriate for bay/beach use.

The "Must" list:

Light enough for one person to manhandle up and down the slope of a beach. 165 lbs for the T2 sounds pretty good to me - even if it's optimistic. Looks like Wa'apa weighs a *lot* more. True? My Hobie 16's 240+ was doable too - albeit on the edge for one person and definately requiring beach wheels.
Ability to strike the rig on the water, pass under a bridge, and then re-erect the rig. The Malibu's stub mast rig was ideal for this: the stub is low enough to pass, and the rest can be quickly lowered/raised.
Ability to recover from a full swamp in 3-4' cross chop. i.e. one or more hatch overs come loose or leak and one can bail faster than new water comes in.
Able to be righted from turtle by one person.
Can be paddled for an extended period of time without undue contortions by the paddler.
No daggerboards. The dag was the Malibu Outrigger's fatal flaw. Launching in and out of the surf isn't so bad bc it could be pulled up, but reaching across a bay and encountering a sand bar, crab trap, (or V8 engine block.... -) doesn't work for me.
Can be sailed standing up. I could sail the Malibu standing up, also a Sunfish that I owned. Not something one wants to do all day every day.... but when done it adds significantly to the sailing experience - especially in shallow, clear water.
The "Want" list:

Not too much draft. What is "too much"?..... not sure.... maybe somebody can offer some wisdom. My thinking is that, even though the T2 has what?.... 15" of draft? hitting a bar or obstacle wouldn't be so bad because it would tend to slide up and over.... or maybe it's just the beauty of the thing bending my mind...
Ability to reduce sail under way. "Brailing"?
Ability to run different sail sizes and still be managable. Center-of-effort?
Ability to mount a small outboard motor. Dunno why..... just seems like a nice-to-have in this area.
Transportable via pickup truck w/6'5" bed and roof racks. I'll go to a trailer if I have to, but being able to haul it in/on the pickup would be a definate plus. FWIW, I can carry my 20' surf ski that way - however the ski only weighs about 35 pounds.
If I had to pick an absolutely 100% safe option - i.e. one that I knew for sure met all my requirements - it would be a Malibu Outrigger with a centerboard instead of a dag.

So.... What's the wisdom of the experienced?

peterchech
08-19-2011, 11:15 PM
Hey Pete if you want to get some real world waapa experience u can come sailing with me in sandy hook bay. Pm me if ur interested.

peterchech
08-20-2011, 07:22 AM
I took Short Dragon out in New Haven harbor yesterday afternoon for a very slow 12 nm cruise (reported wind in the Sound, 4 knots, cruising average 3 knots). [Note: the NOAA weather report while I was on the water stated 4 knots somewhere out on the Sound some miles from New Haven, but when I got home to check the hourly readings on the NOAA site at New Haven Tweed Airport, the reported winds were south, from calm to 7 knots, though averaging 7 knots. I think I ought to get a hand-held windmeter to better learn about what is happening around my small space. The weather tower at Tweed is about 35-40 feet high and a little inland.] I rigged the 114 square foot balanced lug (about 23 sf more than my combined cat-ketch) as a pure cat rig (sure missed the mizzen mast as my back rest; I must make a dedicated seat back, something the air can go through). But, in those winds, I couldn't get any good performance comparison.

In theory, this rig should be a few feet higher in the better air (peak of sail about 16 feet over water, old rig peaks a little under 12 feet), and there is no performance loss from backwinding of the mizzen. As a disadvantage, more heeling force brings me closer to capsize (and my ama-center-to-vaka-center beam is about 6 feet). I think this was a better light-air sail but this is merely intuition. I did follow a 26 foot sloop with a ~quarter mile lead tack for tack and overtook it in about 30 minutes beating, which was nice, because I was having depressive issues over how well I was trimming the sail (no tell-tales on this sail).

I got some reasonably good GPS track info on tacking angles made good as I did a series of short tacks in the light wind within feet of the shore: I would tack when I was about 40 feet from the rocks on shore at Lighthouse Point, go out about 500 feet and tack again, pinching up to keep speed about 3.5 knots (which is my pinching speed no matter what the wind is, it seems) and did that many times (it was the most funof the entire cruise, actually). The track show about 60 degree angles over the bottom, which includes the leeway of course and does not say how the boat was pointing. It didn't seem to point as well as with the cat-ketch rig (leaving me wondering about the effect of the back-winded luff on the 'bad tack' of a balanced lug), but none of my GPS tracks, in any wind, have shown angles better than 60 degrees, ever.

I am still working on my bigger leeboard: it warped after the first lamination (two layers of dry 3/4 pine) so I have been flipping the board over to try to straighten it out before I hog out the basic foil shape. When I do that, I will check again for warping as the stress is relieved from the hogging, final shape, then glass it.

As I was being very lazy, sailing in zephyrs -- laying back, feet up, I saw what I though was a mass of weed, but it wasn't -- bump...scrape! I aground at mid-vaka on some flat rocks covered in barnacles, a few inches udner water at high tide south of Bradley Rock -- my mind-chart had them a 1,000 feet to the west (no marker -- this would destroy a jet-skier who didn't know about them). They were a good test for my epoxy-graphite bottom, exactly what this bottom-covering method is meant to protect against. I got off the rocks by putting one leg over and standing on them to lift the hull an inch. A quick inspection when boat was back on trailer showed some scratching but the black stuff was intact under it. I will have to get a better look by titling the whole boat up; will try to get a meaningful photograph: I know Carlos would like to see it. -- Wade


Yeah I mean I am becoming more and more disenchanted with the lug rig myself... I might do a polytarp hawaiian rig before the season ends just to see how that alters performance...

peterchech
08-20-2011, 07:29 AM
I sailed it in Germany when it was first launched. I am the guy at the back in the non wave scenes in the video. The boat was a disaster. Reached ok, but would not go upwind without the guy down the back of the leeward hull working really hard to keep it on course. Relax for a moment and it would luff up and the rig fall down on the ballast crew. Also made a lot of leeway. This gets boring very quickly. It was also near impossible to steer on a run without dragging feet in the water and kicking really hard occasionally. Again, get it wrong, you gybe and the rig crashes down on the other crew.

The boat was very well built, no expense spared and some good ideas. Peter is a nice guy, loves to party, but realised that there was a lot more to do before it would be a sailing success and a whole lot of price cutting if it was to become commercial. It put me off crabclaws, weight shift steering and leeway reducing hull shapes and was instrumental in deciding that harrys should take more advantage of modern designs and less of traditional ones.

The video was shot in the harbour at Kiel in November with a northerly breeze. Probably the coldest I have ever been on a boat, which did not help me fall in love with the concept!

rob


I have had similar experiences with the "traditional" steering methods on my wa'apa. Paddle steering worked fine, but gets old quick and means the paddle steerer himself can't adjust sheets or act as ballast when necessary. Weight shift steering kind of works, but if there is any swell/chop you are constantly adjusting. Again, gets old. Same with adjusting CLR by shifting leeboards. Steering oar works the best of the traditional methods, but gets tiring, is not precise enough to avoid other boats in a crowded harbor under windy conditions (don't ask how I know), and can get overpowered and stall on certain tacks and in certain conditions. Once I put a rudder on the boat, the difference was night and day.

PeteCress
08-20-2011, 11:19 AM
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/mexproa.jpg

This guy's been doing some serious proa sailing lately. http://grillabongquixotic.wordpress.com/
Last time I read the blog, he was putting the boat up for alterations.

Seems to me like he should have one of the most debugged/practical T2's around by the time he finishes his trip.

Also, I notice he added rudders early in the game.

Wavewacker
08-20-2011, 12:46 PM
Interesting guys. Since this was titled the proa..thread I assume all questions about them go here, or should this be a new thread? Please excuse...


When using an outrigger, I see that they are usually fixed, how do you know how deep to set them. On larger tris it looks like the proa bottom is just touching the water or at the water line, are they only to stabilize the boat when healed or do the also provide flotation for the capacity of the boat. At moorings they appear to stablize the boat preventing rolling. Yes, I'm a newbie to these.

Dan St Gean
08-20-2011, 01:06 PM
I've built the Malibu Outrigger and, aside from an episode of teredo worms in the daggerboard trunk and collapsing the aka attachments, it worked pretty well for me.

It was *really*heavy: the first time I'd built a boat and I over-glassed it.

But that was in Hawaii and I had a mooring for it inside the reef, so weight was a non-issue.

Now my venue is the beaches and back bays of New Jersey (USA) and I'm feeling the urge....

I'm starting to think I've become irrationally attracted to the aesthetics of the T2 and maybe another design would be more appropriate for bay/beach use.

The "Must" list:

Light enough for one person to manhandle up and down the slope of a beach. 165 lbs for the T2 sounds pretty good to me - even if it's optimistic. Looks like Wa'apa weighs a *lot* more. True? My Hobie 16's 240+ was doable too - albeit on the edge for one person and definately requiring beach wheels.
Ability to strike the rig on the water, pass under a bridge, and then re-erect the rig. The Malibu's stub mast rig was ideal for this: the stub is low enough to pass, and the rest can be quickly lowered/raised.
Ability to recover from a full swamp in 3-4' cross chop. i.e. one or more hatch overs come loose or leak and it's recoverable.
Able to be righted from turtle by one person.
Can be paddled for an extended period of time without undue contortions by the paddler.
No daggerboards. That was the Malibu Outrigger's fatal flaw. Launching in and out of the surf isn't so bad with a dag bc it can be pulled up, but reaching across a bay and encountering a sand bar, crab trap, (or V8 engine block.... -) doesn't work for me.
Can be sailed standing up. I could sail the Malibu standing up, also a Sunfish that I owned.
The "Want" list:

Not too much draft. What is "too much"?..... not sure.... maybe somebody can offer some wisdom. My thinking is that, even though the T2 has what?.... 15" of draft? hitting a bar or obstacle wouldn't be so bad because it would tend to slide up and over.... or maybe it's just the beauty of the thing bending my mind...
Ability to reduce sail under way. "Brailing"?
Ability to run different sail sizes and still be managable. Center-of-effort?
Ability to mount a small outboard motor. Dunno why..... just seems like a nice-to-have in this area.
Transportable via pickup truck w/6'5" bed and roof racks. I'll go to a trailer if I have to, but being able to haul it in/on the pickup would be a definate plus. FWIW, I can carry my 20' surf ski that way - however the ski only weighs about 35 pounds.
If I had to pick an absolutely 100% safe option - i.e. one that I knew for sure met all my requirements - it would be a Malibu Outrigger with a centerboard instead of a dag.

So.... What's the wisdom of the experienced?

I'm not "the experienced" like Gary and others, but I do know that my Ulua was a bit much for solo work. It is stretched to 21'. The Tamanu is too much for truck work as well IMHO. The closest to what you want is the Raptor 16. Kind of like a short surfski/outrigger in it's paddleability. The boat is light!

You could do something like it with a Dart hull, small outrigger, and roller furling. Scaling everything down is a must for keeping it light enough to Truck it. I'd also say keep it plug & go so there's minimal setup time.

My hobie wave takes 1/2 hour to set up from broken down into components. I'd shoot for less. Some ideas might be grabbing some hobie components and adding them to a dart hull or your surfski if you don't mind modifying it.

Fast assembly and light weight are mission critical. Doing a Wave or dart style hull will eliminate centerboards, leeboards or daggers with some loss of pointing efficiency.

Dan

Wavewacker
08-20-2011, 01:20 PM
Guess I was interupting....sorry

Gary Dierking
08-20-2011, 04:54 PM
Interesting guys. Since this was titled the proa..thread I assume all questions about them go here, or should this be a new thread? Please excuse...


When using an outrigger, I see that they are usually fixed, how do you know how deep to set them. On larger tris it looks like the proa bottom is just touching the water or at the water line, are they only to stabilize the boat when healed or do the also provide flotation for the capacity of the boat. At moorings they appear to stablize the boat preventing rolling. Yes, I'm a newbie to these.

With a single outrigger, you want the fully loaded canoe to be about level or leaning slightly towards the outrigger. Note that this can be somewhat tuned in after the canoe is built by shimming under the crossbeams where they cross the gunwale.
With double outriggers, the floats should be just clear of the water when the hull is level, to make tacking quicker. This can be annoying when paddling though because the whole thing flops side to side, so it is useful to load some weight on one side to keep it heeled in one direction. Cruising tris have their floats just touching the water to avoid the annoying flopping at anchor.

Wavewacker
08-20-2011, 08:28 PM
Thanks Gary! Just sold my jet boat...Hoooraaay, happier now than the day I bought it! Now I'll put that toward a build or a better suited boat for my adventures. Thanks, again, I have a canoe that I'd like to put a small sail on and thought a this arrangement would really add to the stability. Thanks again.

Dan St Gean
08-20-2011, 11:08 PM
Guess I was interupting....sorry

No worries. I didn't know what you were asking, but Gary got it & answered it. (and a million of my questions as well)

Dan

Gary Dierking
08-21-2011, 04:30 PM
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/rollout2.jpg

I rolled the Va'a Motu out for some sun yesterday. I still have to glass the ama and do a hundred other small jobs.

trefor
08-21-2011, 06:44 PM
That pic makes me smile. :)


-Trevor

Clarkey
08-21-2011, 07:08 PM
I am really pleased to see how wonderful Va'a Motu looks. I have Gary's book and have contemplated building a Wa'apa more that once but for all the excellence of the design and its undeniable practicality I could never come to terms with the rather plain appearance. Obviously this marks me out as a rather shallow individual but now I see a chance to build something well sorted, fit for many purposes and beautiful too.

I can't wait to see it on the water and will be really interested to hear how the rig works out....

rob denney
08-21-2011, 09:06 PM
Thanks for the refreshing splash of reality.

I take "leeway reducing...." tb "asymmetrical", right?

yes. Can't remember how much, but the hull is quite deep v so this would have helped as well.

Wade, paralellogramming is great, but in bigger boats gets heavy and the loss of rm from the reduced beam needs to be considered in a performance proa. However, the thing that put me off when I tried it was getting my arse pinched by the moving beam! Could you email me any pics etc you have of Jim's boat, please. Ta.

rob

wtarzia
08-22-2011, 02:11 AM
...Wade, paralellogramming is great, but in bigger boats gets heavy and the loss of rm from the reduced beam needs to be considered in a performance proa. However, the thing that put me off when I tried it was getting my arse pinched by the moving beam! Could you email me any pics etc you have of Jim's boat, please. Ta...

--- I can see how it would be tough on a larger boat, but I do not think Jim intended it for such. I think he loves his WindRider 17 so much that he had in mind simply a like-scaled proa; he loves trimarans obviously but also loves the idea of the elegant simplicity of a proa. The photos I have are of the disassembled hulls lying in the weeds, so they would not be informative. They look like anybody's temporarily abandoned proa except for the nicely fashioned daggerboard slots that show the shape of shunting foils. I did see the fine scale model he made of it, and no doubt he had a way of rapidly and positively un-clamping and re-clamping those guy wires during a shunt, and stoppers to make sure the paralleogramming didn't get out of hand. Perhaps even butt-pinching was fixed! :-) -- Wade

Jim Cummings
08-22-2011, 09:55 AM
I'm thinking of building a Wa'apa, but the set up and breakdown times worry me. I have to trailer or car top. What have been people real world times?

wtarzia
08-22-2011, 11:49 AM
There are a lot of variables you need to firsty supply. If you have to assemble the entire boat then rig it, that takes a little time. Assembly time should be figured to include how you are storing and carrying the boat. Are you keeping the pieces in a shed and have to move them to a pick-up truck or van (or up on truck racks or car roof rack = more time), then drive to site, then off-load, then assemble? (and do it all in reverse going home). A 24 foot wa'apa has three hull sections and 12 bolts. If you are thinking of a T2, then you are not assembling the hull (as in a wa'apa), so that saves time.

As for the ama-akas, you are essentially having the time it takes to rig a small sailboat with shrouds and stays (if T2, less time for wa'apa usually), then adding on the time it takes to lash the ama and akas on. If you were day-sailing (I mean, actually arriving early in the morning and intending to sail to nearly dusk) then assembly time may not seem to bad. But it is when you want to escape for a couple of free hours for an afternoon cruise that any assembly time seems x10 :-(

One trick is to make sure the akas and amas are as quick-assembly as possible. When I sailed my 14 foot proa, stuffed into the back of an old Izusu Rodeo, I eventually devised a T-connector on the hull (bolt through an oak piece) and a slot cut into the end of each aka. The akas plugged in to the T-connector on the lee side of the hull, and then I lashed the akas on with a line and horn cleat (one oer akas). It was flexible but strong, and fairly quick. I lashed the ama to the akas with one line and a horn cleat (each). The only time consumption is making the lashings tight. Were I to do this again, I would devise something like Joe Henry did for his Flaquita outrigger: aka ends go into a tight box/slot in the ama, and the lashing line mostly is just for keeping it pulled together. That could be very fast, comparatively.

But if you have around 8 lashing points on the outrigger -- two on each ama-to-vaka atatchment, and two for each aka-to-ama attachment, then your two hour afternoon cruise will begin on some frustration. That will be better for a permanent set-up, not a daily routine.

My personal comparison is this: My 14 foot proa took 45 minutes to set up but that included bolting the two halves of the hull together (subtract 7-10 minutes time from T2 assembly, keep about same for 16 foot wa'apa, or add some time for a 24 foot wa'apa). Otherwise I had a shunting crabclaw, much like a T2 rig. My current outrigger, assembled on a trailer, takes 20 minutes (very dedicated, no lollygagging) of unwrapping sails from their protective canvas tarp, un-lashing and plopping in two stayless masts, clipping in the sheets, and raising/tensioning two standing lugs. My guess, then, is for T2, 35 minutes assembly time (including unlashing and carrying pieces off a roof rack) with no distractions or mistakes, and assuming a quick-connect ama-aka-vaka system. For a 16 foot wa'apa, maybe the same if you use a drop-in rig. For 24 footer, more.

One thing with assembling hull sections is getting the initial alignment to push in the bolts and NOT dropping nuts and bolts into the sand :-) You wouldn't believe the time that can gobble. If possible, assemble hulls on a flat hard, clean surface (good luck with that at launch site). My cursing time was spent aligning the hulls, avoiding getting sand and shells lodged between the two hull-halfs, pushing the bolts through, then ratcheting them tight (top bolts first worked best for me). I did a LOT of fantasizing about permanently hinging the hulls to negate alignment and reduce bolting. Possibly some permanent pegs and matching holes, alongside the top bolt holes on the top of the "transoms" of the hull pieces, might aid alignment without adding complications or through-hull compromises. Also, I fantasized about a battery powered ratchet wrench, I was so desperate to reduce set-up time :-)

There is some consolation: some people bring boats on trailers that take as much or more time to assemble. I have often seen a small HobieCat gobble 45 minutes of mast, stay, shroud, and sail raising, and a Nacra and a WindRider hydrofoiler that each took over an hour, and these guys had their faces turned down to the job and often had some crew help! -- Wade

peterchech
08-22-2011, 12:04 PM
In my opinion, the 16'morning waapa is about the most boat that can be reasonably carhopped for daysailing. Any monohull would be extremely limited and you would be lying down as low as possible to keep from tipping the whole time (I had a bolger cartopper before waapa so I know from experience).But if you take this route, you absolutely must make some mods to the design. First, build as light as possible, using 4mm okoume for the sides andonly glass the bottom if at all. Second, build it in one piece not two, to keep it light. Third, figure out either a bolting or else quick lashing system for it. Mine has the lashings as in the plans, and it is such a pita to lash through all those little holes that I would never ever be able to daysil the boat. The lashings tdzake me and my crew about 40 hot and frustrating minutes to do.

Dan St Gean
08-22-2011, 12:50 PM
My 21' Ulua took about an hour of steady work to assemble. It was enough of a hassle that I would assemble it once and leave it in the water for a week's vacation on a mooring. However, like has been mentioned, the Hobies and similar do take some time as well. If you have a *sailboat* boat that gets in the water from trailer to sailing in under 15 minutes, you have both a simple boat and a well thought out launch and retreival process.

For that reason, most like trailers here for anything more than a canoe and kayak. I prefer a flatbed trailer so I can use it for my double tamanu cat, my Ulua already lashed up, or anything else a flatbed is typically used for.

I've thought there are some general principles that apply. For a solo craft light and simple is right. Even A cats with their level of sophistication are simple uni rigs. Light too.

Double handed boats need the buoyancy and therefore greater weight than a light solo boat. One thing with some of these outrigger designs (although Joe Henry's Flaquita nailed it with this) is the ability to set up quickly from the trailer. It does me no good to have a single outrigger that's got a 12-13' beam as that makes me disassemble all the components. Being able to leave a boat assembled at 8'6" on the trailer and then adding a few components vastly increases the speed of launch, and therefore the amount of use the boat gets.

.02

Dan

Jim Cummings
08-22-2011, 12:59 PM
The dream is to build the 24' and leave the 2 front sections assembled on a trailer through the sailing season. Drive to launch site, connect stern section, lash on amas and ama-to-vaka. I have a Klepper Master now, a fun little boat, but a hour + assemble and 45 minutes break down at the end of the day. There is a guy with a Melonseed who's son has the boat ready to sail by the time the father has walked back across the parking lot from the launch ramp. I don't have to be that fast, but is 30 minutes realistic for my schema? Also is a crew of 4 realistic for a 24' Wa'apa?

wtarzia
08-22-2011, 01:43 PM
The dream is to build the 24' and leave the 2 front sections assembled on a trailer through the sailing season. Drive to launch site, connect stern section, lash on amas and ama-to-vaka. ...There is a guy with a Melonseed who's son has the boat ready to sail by the time the father has walked back across the parking lot from the launch ramp. I don't have to be that fast, but is 30 minutes realistic for my schema? Also is a crew of 4 realistic for a 24' Wa'apa?

--- I think 30 minutes is barely possible if you do not have to assemble the outriggers very much and if the rig is a drop-in -- you'd need a VERY quick-connect system. This is when a telescoping or a swing-wing design starts to look interesting. When I get to my Tamanu I will encounter all sorts of these kinds of problems. It will fit lengthwise on the trailer in the garage, but will have to be pulled back on trailer after egress (or I could leave trailer tongue sticking out udner a partially raised garage door), and the akas will have to swing or telescope to pbring a 10 foot beam down to a 7 foot beam, because I will NOT be doing any from-scratch assembly. Let the headaches begin! You have to really love outriggers because, yes, otherwise, a Melonseed or a surf dory with a stayless rig or a monohull sailing canoe starts sounding like the call of the sirens, for the trailer-sailer. -- Wade

Dan St Gean
08-22-2011, 02:17 PM
The dream is to build the 24' and leave the 2 front sections assembled on a trailer through the sailing season. Drive to launch site, connect stern section, lash on amas and ama-to-vaka. I have a Klepper Master now, a fun little boat, but a hour + assemble and 45 minutes break down at the end of the day. There is a guy with a Melonseed who's son has the boat ready to sail by the time the father has walked back across the parking lot from the launch ramp. I don't have to be that fast, but is 30 minutes realistic for my schema? Also is a crew of 4 realistic for a 24' Wa'apa?

What Wade said +1

The more you can leave assembled, the less you have to do at launch. Simple enough I know, but what you described is an hour unless that crew of 4 has a checklist and gets after it.

Dan

PeteCress
08-22-2011, 03:08 PM
but is 30 minutes realistic for my schema?
FWIW, in my Hobie 16 days, my best time was well under 20 minutes minutes - beginning with the boat in the parking lot on a trailer. My recollection is nine minutes - but it doesn't seem possible to me so many years later.

- Off the trailer, on to beach wheels

- Roll about 30 feet to edge of lake

- Boat is facing water and beach wheels abaft of amidships (i.e. boat tilted forward)

- Step and raise mast - forward tilt stabilizes mast on shrouds while forestay secured.

- Mount boom

- Raise sails

- Remove beach wheels

peterchech
08-22-2011, 03:50 PM
If built light the 24' waapa will take 4 people in calm water. Mine is built too heavy (~450#) and I have taken 700# crew plus cooler, beer, extra tools/lines, etc into some rough stuff the loading was fine. I have a 100% ama though which h helps. The waapa can be built in any length from 16' to 32', from one section to at least 4to so dont feel constrained by the plans in that sense. The twenty footer version I built was far more maneuverable than the 24 footer, but the 24 foot version handles swell and chop in stride, with much more space for crew/stuff. Seating the 4 crew may be more problematic though...If you must lash, do not follow the plans, rather use the tamanu lashing system which is much faster.

Wavewacker
08-23-2011, 09:51 AM
I hesitate in suggesting anything since I know so little about these, but as far as attaching the amas, can't you fabricate connections with two pins, like hood pins on race cars, 2 from different directions to lock the commections vertically and horizontally to prevent movement, or one pin depending on how the connection is fabed? The pins are tied on so you don't lose them.

wtarzia
08-23-2011, 11:07 AM
I hesitate in suggesting anything since I know so little about these, but as far as attaching the amas, can't you fabricate connections with two pins, like hood pins on race cars, 2 from different directions to lock the commections vertically and horizontally to prevent movement, or one pin depending on how the connection is fabed? The pins are tied on so you don't lose them.

--- You can. Pins can work loose so you'd want to tie them down, and if you do that, you can just lash and the cleat the connection without a pin. Much depends on whether the end of the aka fits into a slot or other form and how precise that fit is. (And the more precise, the more stress will transfer to it). I have used a loose oak dowel through the aka and into the vaka bearing to fix the relationship, but that is not necessary. What it does though is give you a little failsafe if the lashings loosen: the oak dowel can maintain the location while you relash or jam a wedge in there to temporarily tighten. And yet my lashings loosened only once in all these years, at the Everglades Challenge when I was using for the first time a a new set of akas and the race was the shakedown cruise. On my usual set up though, everything is lashed and cleated, and it stays tight enough. I use large-diameter ss eyebolts on the ama and run the lines through them twice, which flexibly sets up the location to the akas, and then continue the lashings carefully around then onto the cleat. Each ama strut has two dedicated lashing lines, and one cleats over the other. There is some failsafe feature there, or at least plenty of warning if one loosened while the other stayed tight -- never happened to my ama-aka lashings, and it takes a lot of stress on the trimaram tack. -- Wade

slidercat
08-23-2011, 01:15 PM
You have to really love outriggers because, yes, otherwise, a Melonseed or a surf dory with a stayless rig or a monohull sailing canoe starts sounding like the call of the sirens, for the trailer-sailer. -- Wade

I don't know. I just took Slider out of the water for bottom paint, and it was literally 5 minutes from rig up in the water to rig down on the trailer. Most of that time was wiggling her around to pull onto the trailer straight. All you have to do to take down the mast is cast a lanyard off a cleat on the forebeam, and lower the mast into its crutch. Done. Wait, usually I do bungee up the topping lifts and stays to keep them from getting tangled, so that's another 15 seconds.

wtarzia
08-23-2011, 10:55 PM
Today, nice afternoon in New Haven with winds 7-8 knots and gusting to 16 (NOAA). I went there today expecting light winds as I got last week when the winds were forecast to be 8-9 knots but were zephyrs. So I arrived with just the big balanced lug sail and was greeted by whitecaps and big chop. Soaked in 5 minutes flat, doing 6-7-8 knots for most of the afternoon, bow burying (the tall lug brings us down by the bow a little, and I see the difference), 5 gallons of water taken on evey 5 minutes (my next outrigger is getting full cockpit-length sidedecks, I think), and finally the gear tore out of the foredeck, bang! Shear ripped out the 3/16 screws. Luckily this was downwind, so the mess brought me surfing back to the ramp where I made use of the former belaying pin hole and a dowel I had in the toolbox, and for the downhaul, my "nomad cleat" as documented at Instructables, the ever simple, ever useful, go-anywhere horn cleat, I love that thing! One more hour bashing through chop, running bow into wave in front of me, catching up to the big sail boats all reefed down! What a blast, but also, was nice getting back and taking a sigh of relief, and uncramping the sheet-hand. Not a good sail for those conditions, ama buried on trimaran tack, near capsize every 45 seconds on the proa tack. Good times! Short video on Youtube in a few days. -- Wade

wtarzia
08-23-2011, 11:00 PM
I don't know. I just took Slider out of the water for bottom paint, and it was literally 5 minutes from rig up in the water to rig down on the trailer. Most of that time was wiggling her around to pull onto the trailer straight. All you have to do to take down the mast is cast a lanyard off a cleat on the forebeam, and lower the mast into its crutch. Done. Wait, usually I do bungee up the topping lifts and stays to keep them from getting tangled, so that's another 15 seconds.

--- My take-down includes the time of pumping water and sponging out the boat, re-attaching magnetic tail lights, strapping boat in, carefully securing the rig for the ride home, most of which is wrapping up the main and mizzen sails in canvas (a large bag would be faster perhaps), and rinsing salt off some of my gear some of the deckhardware, all of which is seldom less than 30 minutes. Setting up is shorter because minus the rinsing and pumping. -- Wade

David Lowry
08-24-2011, 12:26 AM
I'm not an innovator in this field. I do what Gary does, but with a 24' Ulua. This works for me with my light ama. When I'm toting my larger ama, it rides alongside the vaka and gets quickly lashed with light tie down straps. I use the Marquesan quick connect boards that are spec'd on the wa'apa's ama. This is fast, like 10 minutes fast.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/outrigger/7335835/in/set-185726/

David

wtarzia
08-24-2011, 01:31 AM
Those Marquesan attachments look good for that. I've blocked them from my options only because I imagine them punching a hole in my head in a bad capsize. To be fair, that probably wouldn't happen in a boat whose mast will not fall back in a capsize, but bad memories linger :-) -- Wade

David Lowry
08-24-2011, 01:43 AM
I remember running across that story you wrote after you had informally warned me of the possibility! (http://www.wtarzia.com/files/First_Day_with_Crabclaw_Rig.rtf) Made my hair stand up! Well, I'm always overloaded or underpowered or both, but it is something that lurks in the back of my mind now as well, Wade.

David

Dan St Gean
08-24-2011, 12:10 PM
I don't know. I just took Slider out of the water for bottom paint, and it was literally 5 minutes from rig up in the water to rig down on the trailer. Most of that time was wiggling her around to pull onto the trailer straight. All you have to do to take down the mast is cast a lanyard off a cleat on the forebeam, and lower the mast into its crutch. Done. Wait, usually I do bungee up the topping lifts and stays to keep them from getting tangled, so that's another 15 seconds.

I think that's the goal. BUT...you have everything but stepping the mast done right?


Some of these outriggers could use a lesson from the cat guys where everything is left attached so the trailerable platform can be launched, rig stepped, and sail raised.


If you had to assemble the hulls with crossbeams, attach your hard deck, rudders, mast, sails, etc. then you'd be doing the hour dance that some of us have been doing.


I think we have something to learn from your example there. (and why i'm messing with a 8'6" cat where I can step the rig, raise the sails and go.

Dan

peterchech
08-24-2011, 02:22 PM
The lug rig is a pita to set up too I noticed. It is guaranteed to tangle and force you to restep at least twice every time u set up.

Jim Cummings
08-24-2011, 02:25 PM
Wasn't there someone who hauled their proa with the outrigger attached, but vertical in the air?

slidercat
08-24-2011, 02:37 PM
I think that's the goal. BUT...you have everything but stepping the mast done right?



The mast is all there is to do. Even the main is stored on the boom with its cover on. So I guess you have to add the time you spend furling the main and taking off the jib, but those are things you'd do if you were in a slip, so they really don't count against launch time.

wtarzia
08-24-2011, 04:36 PM
Wasn't there someone who hauled their proa with the outrigger attached, but vertical in the air?

--- Yes, Gary Dierking and I think Harmen Hielkemma. A nice option if you have a light ama. --Wade

wtarzia
08-24-2011, 04:43 PM
The lug rig is a pita to set up too I noticed. It is guaranteed to tangle and force you to restep at least twice every time u set up.

--- It can be a little awkward, and you have to fool around two parrels and a downhaul besides the halyard. What infuriates me are the things your lines can tangle with: the paddle, the side seat, the ends of the akas sticking out a few inches over the gunwales, the tiller, the leeboard stowed in the hull. I've tried to keep horn cleats down but I still have too many (mizzen halyard, especially noxious, main halyard, main downhaul) and I think I will convert over to jams or cams. -- Wade

Rob Kearney
08-24-2011, 06:39 PM
--- What infuriates me are the things your lines can tangle with: the paddle, the side seat, the ends of the akas sticking out a few inches over the gunwales, the tiller, the leeboard stowed in the hull. I've tried to keep horn cleats down but I still have too many (mizzen halyard, especially noxious, main halyard, main downhaul) and I think I will convert over to jams or cams. -- Wade

Isn't it amazing how that happens - it's like the boat has gremlins or something.

BTW, I meant to ask you a while back about where you sailed on the Chesapeake on your trimaran trip. I'm a northern Chesapeake sailor but I've got a list of places around the bay that I want trailor-sail out of at some
point. Last week I canoed at Janes Island State Park near Crisfield, MD. which I had been wanting to get to.
Unfortunately I didn't bring my sail rig with me which was a shame because the conditions were perfect for
sailing.

- Rob

PeteCress
08-24-2011, 07:23 PM
(http://www.wtarzia.com/files/First_Day_with_Crabclaw_Rig.rtf)
That one is priceless. If anybody has not read it yet, I would recommend a read.

wtarzia
08-25-2011, 01:19 AM
Brief video of yesterday's fun at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGp1EZAQDqY -- Wade

wtarzia
08-25-2011, 01:27 AM
...BTW, I meant to ask you a while back about where you sailed on the Chesapeake on your trimaran trip. ...

--- We rounded Pt New Comfort, passed The Wolftrap (10 knot surfing!), and wandered around the lower Chesapeake, anchoring at Onancock River, docking in the village next night, crossing over to Fleetsville, then up the Potomac to Indian Creek, and more or less back the same way. You folk are blessed -- the Chesapeake seems to be ideal sailing grounds -- you can cross and really get out there but get to land on the other side soon enough to find an anchorage, good anchorages and interesting villages -- the heat wave and bugs were our only complaints. We were going to head up to the northern Chesapeake for another week when the heat wave and bugs beat the crap out of us (the cockpit has a nice mosquito net but the UV got to the zipper and it was turning to powder before our eyes, and in the end we were buying spring clamps to hold it up. Ilearned how important the sun shade and bug net could be, for sure. -- Wade

wtarzia
08-25-2011, 01:33 AM
That one is priceless. If anybody has not read it yet, I would recommend a read.

--- Glad you liked it. Making fun of yourself is the only safe humor. I'm writing a book with this tone called right now "In Search of Tim Severin" which sort of says it all. I was hoping my Everglades Challenge attempt would make a few good chapters in it, but alas, no, my 2011 failure means I need to enter another EC (I hope in a Tamanu outrigger) to get those 'lost chapters' in there :-) As odd as it may sound, the journal Sea Stories is interviewing me for some of this kind of material, despite that I implied to the editor my life has been too sedate to be interview-worthy. But she is going ahead anyway, and I hope the power of words makes adequate recompense for a mundane life! -- Wade

peterchech
08-25-2011, 08:09 AM
--- Glad you liked it. Making fun of yourself is the only safe humor. I'm writing a book with this tone called right now "In Search of Tim Severin" which sort of says it all. I was hoping my Everglades Challenge attempt would make a few good chapters in it, but alas, no, my 2011 failure means I need to enter another EC (I hope in a Tamanu outrigger) to get those 'lost chapters' in there :-) As odd as it may sound, the journal Sea Stories is interviewing me for some of this kind of material, despite that I implied to the editor my life has been too sedate to be interview-worthy. But she is going ahead anyway, and I hope the power of words makes adequate recompense for a mundane life! -- Wade


lol.

Great video Wade, looks like so much fun. But kind of proving something to me, you are topping out at 6.5 knots in what are pretty much ideal sailing conditions. The ama is starting to dig in. These boats shouldn't be limited to 6.5 knots, I think we limit them by putting the wrong sail types on. I want to see a 16' waapa (or short dragon ;-)) with a Hobie 14 uni rig.

I mean, I have ~170 sq ft of sail on my 24' waapa, and in a gust, teetering on capsize, with one crew to help me hike waaaay out on the ama side, flying the ama, we got to 9.3 knots. Briefly. Once. Top sustained real speed with my rig (stayed balanced lug and genoa) is usually about 7 knots, 5-6 knots is average cruising speed and even that digs in the ama sometimes...

What speeds have others been getting on these boats? Does the hawaiian rig work better for anyone? Has anyone put a beach cat main on their boats?

wtarzia
08-25-2011, 10:13 AM
Peter, the hull speed for a boat like Short Dragon is something like 5.1 knots, so it is already breaking that on most days, or attaining it easily on mundane days. My particular boat is much heavier than most modern proas of its size, its beam is narrower, and its ama poorly shaped (though it was meant to be a shunting proa ama, always to windward, and I think it would be a good shape for that, and its 80 pound weight appropriate for a weight-to-windward outrigger). Add to that the sailing conditions of beating into a chop, and add to that the fact that I am pinching to the limits of the sail during the film (I could only film at the slower speeds). The sail was not even hauled in as close as it could have been since things were making bad sounds and the mast looked like it had an extreme bend in it -- a little while after that video the deck gear tore out. Before and after, the sailing speeds were *reguarly* 7-8 knots, and a max of 10. So the news isn't so bad in my opinion, for a heavy, crude, home-built boat with a doubtful rig sailed with minimal skill.

If the ama were properly shaped, that would be a BIG help. With volume forward on the ama, and in a general a larger volume ama, I would not have to be sailing to control speed, and the regular speeds in a good wind of 15 knots would be regularly closer to 9 and 10, with some more of those 12s I have hit briefly in the past. I wonder if such sailing would be very comfortable in a 16 foot boat?. You can perhaps finnesse things to regularly go faster, but then the boat is getting closer to racing speeds and with that, the racing life-style of capsizing more often than is fun. But I am no expert having NEVER sailed on a well designed and set-up outrigger, so what do I know? I only know how happy I am at 7-8 knots :-) But then aspects of competitiveness come out that are not pretty, such as wanting to catch up to and pass a 25 foot boat because you can :-)

In your 24 footer, though, if you can sail in a sustained wind, 10 and 12 knots would be pretty comfortable I guess. 170 feet is pretty good, so I would *guess* your performance (without knowing the wind conditions, or the pitching/rolling of the hull) has something to do with the rig as much as the ama. How well does a balanced lug function with a genoa? Was your mast bending with that load, putting draft into the lug when you needed it to be flatter? And etc. Neither am I an expert of sail tuning. -- Wade

Dan St Gean
08-25-2011, 12:07 PM
These boats beg to be experimented with...but not all rigs area good match. A fast boat with a "slow" sail will not go fast unless on a reach or run. Too full and the boat really just won't shine. If you want beachcat speeds, look at beachcat sails. Outhaul, downhaul, batten tension, sheet and traveller all need to be tuned to your conditions to get best performance. Minimize wetted surface and maximize the righting moment (twin traps) and you can see why you're not attaining their level of speed. Add a high aspect rig (more efficiency), and you're there.

To get modern multi performance out of an outrigger, it kinda needs to look like a modern ~Tornado and following~ boat with those attributes. It can still look the way you want if the Polynesian visual is what does it for you. Aesthetically, it does for me.

If I were to design an outreigger for speed it would end up looking like the Ninja.
http://www.sail-the-difference.com/uploads/pics/q-bl-airbreeze_01.JPGhttp://www.sail-the-difference.com/uploads/pics/bl-Ninja_Spider_R.JPG

Here it is as a tacking outrigger and a tri. Skinny hulls of minimum wetted surface (for a chined hull), high beams to help eliminate wave slap, good foils, High aspect tunable rig, and lots of sail area to take advantage of the righting power on the hiking tack, and the trimaran shaped ama on that tack.

If you are using a baggy sail of low aspect ratio on a boxy hull with bad jjfoils and still hitting 10 knots, you have just experienced the magic of this form--so forgiving...

Rob Kearney
08-25-2011, 01:00 PM
--- We rounded Pt New Comfort, passed The Wolftrap (10 knot surfing!), and wandered around the lower Chesapeake, anchoring at Onancock River, docking in the village next night, crossing over to Fleetsville, then up the Potomac to Indian Creek, and more or less back the same way. You folk are blessed -- the Chesapeake seems to be ideal sailing grounds -- you can cross and really get out there but get to land on the other side soon enough to find an anchorage, good anchorages and interesting villages -- the heat wave and bugs were our only complaints. We were going to head up to the northern Chesapeake for another week when the heat wave and bugs beat the crap out of us (the cockpit has a nice mosquito net but the UV got to the zipper and it was turning to powder before our eyes, and in the end we were buying spring clamps to hold it up. Ilearned how important the sun shade and bug net could be, for sure. -- Wade

Sounds like a cool trip. It's unfortunate that you happened to be here while we were getting record-breaking heat. The bugs will definitely let you know that they rule the neighborhood any time the breeze is down.

That's a great video and it really gives a feel for the speed you were going.

- Rob

slidercat
08-25-2011, 05:26 PM
lol.

I mean, I have ~170 sq ft of sail on my 24' waapa, and in a gust, teetering on capsize, with one crew to help me hike waaaay out on the ama side, flying the ama, we got to 9.3 knots. Briefly. Once. Top sustained real speed with my rig (stayed balanced lug and genoa) is usually about 7 knots, 5-6 knots is average cruising speed and even that digs in the ama sometimes...

What speeds have others been getting on these boats?

Peter, you're probably tired of hearing this stuff, since Slider is neither a proa nor an outrigger, but I've gotten this 16 foot boat with 140 sq. ft. of sail to 10 knots on a number of occasions, in flat water, so no surfing. Once I was sitting in the lee hull. To be fair, there was about a hundred pounds of camping gear in the windward hull, but she didn't fly the hull. I have to admit that I was clutching the mainsheet, ready to yank it out of the cam cleat if we started to go over. Frankly, however, I'm not a daredevil. If that sort of speed was sustained for more than a minute or two, I'd luff up and reef, so I wouldn't have to worry about capsizing.

Petewp
08-26-2011, 06:47 AM
I am going to use ZIPTIES the next time i set up my akas and ama to my sailing kayak. Not a means to an end in itself, but simply to keep the craft assembled as i go about lashing to the hull.
The zipties ought to act as that extra set of many hands you wish u had holding the whole craft together as the lashing is done. At the end of the day, snip em off with wire cutters. Homedepot makes some serious serious seriously strong zip ties. They are thin enough to lash right over.

Im curious, EXACTLY how are you guys lashing your amas - how long a rope and how many wrap arounds? I "lashed" in the past with straps and rachets [worked loose amazingly].



Pete

peterchech
08-26-2011, 08:06 AM
Well, I have the lashing system in the plans for wa'apa for the vaka. Using 1/4 inch (good) polyester line, I use about 25', which gives me a good 8 or 9 wraps plus some frapping. It is lashed neatly, the way you might have learned in boy scouts to lash two stick together.

I have used cheaper polypropylene line from home depot and it works fine too, just not as uv resistant for leaving it on the beach and the sheathing wears much quicker in hard use.

People use far less rope than I for lashing, however, and it takes FOREVER to lash my akas on. This is because each wrap I must pass 25' of line through two small holes on either side of the aka. My boat stays on the beach, so no prob.

I will say though, they are bulletproof now. I was sailing hard the other day, in swells and steep chop, ama to lee, and the ama was just punching through all these waves, I saw the aka bending like I never had seen before. At that point I was pretty happy I over did it on the lashings :-)

Tie down straps worked loose on you? Interesting, I have heard they work great...

wtarzia
08-26-2011, 12:50 PM
...Im curious, EXACTLY how are you guys lashing your amas - how long a rope and how many wrap arounds? I "lashed" in the past with straps and rachets...Pete

--- I use ~8 feet of line, two per strut on the ama-aka connection. 1/4 inch cheap poly. Each ties to the strut diagonal with a bowline, goes through (from under) the ss eyebolt in the upright strut (aka sort of rests/locates on the eyebolt), then up through a veritical hole in the aka aligned with the eyebolt and around the aka and the ama cross-piece (the corss-piece joins the two upright struts going down into the ama, and these are braced by the diagonal struts). The lines goes around again, up through the eye bolt again, then wraps three times around the ama crosspiece and ama. Finally, the line goes down through a hole in the ama cross-piece, exits near a large horn cleat UNDER the ama cross-piece (where its horns are less likely to tangle stray lines or puncture skulls), and cleats off. The second line on the other ama strut does the same thing, and cleats over the first line. Ditto for the other set. This has proved strong enough, but I should go for dacron line instead. The cheap Poly has stood two years of use without a problem, and I could have re-used it but I replaced it last week.

Previously for THIS season only I was using NRS rachet-strap tie-downs to lash the amas on. They worked well for my inflatables but are not the thing for my typical set-up -- they let the ama work too much. I do recommend carrying a pair of these for emergency lashings. They would get you back to shore if pirates boarded and slashed your lashings :-) These straps are ideal for temporary lashing when setting up the boat ashore!

The ama-to-vaka set-up on Short Dragon is much like the way Gary Dierking illustrated it for his Tamanu, from which I adapted the idea. 3/8 cheap poly line attached to the hull with a stopper knot over a heavy washer. The line exists the hull through a well rounded off hole through a backing pad glued to the hull (I coat these holes well with epoxy and double-check their interior smoothness, of course; this zone might be a good candidate for epoxy-graphite). The line goes under a -- what do you call it? a bearing? -- a two inch diameter round bearing of oak glued to the hull (plus back-up screw), over which is glued a larger "cover" (lug? lip?) of oak that will retain the lashings on the oak bearing. The wrapping goes three times around, then down into a hole, into the hull (and backing pad), and over to a large horn-cleat screwed UNDER the ama-vaka bearing cross-piece. Same for other side, which cleats over the first line, and ditto the other set.

Only drawback so far is that I stow my anchor and rode just in front of the fore aka, and possibly a loop of rode could hook on the horn-cleat. (This can be solved by gluing in a little plywood bulkhead that effectively makes that part of the fore-deck a separated anchor well, then drill a drain hole to the outside. So far I have not done this as I dislike yet another place where water can collect, and the bow does dive into waves often, and despite the bow deck over the canoe deck 6 inches below, that area can flood -- the anchor does have to come out through a cover, right? -- and want it cleared as fast as possible. A little canoe can go bow-down awfully fast, and Murphy reminds us that this will happen downwind in brisk wind at a bad time.). -- Wade

wtarzia
08-26-2011, 01:53 PM
For the trimaran enthusiasts I put up 5 short videos on Youtube from my Chesapeake cruise. They are 5 minutes or less each. The first one is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij0S_NX87kQ -- Wade

trefor
08-26-2011, 09:55 PM
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6189/6084430674_eb4f9ddf3e.jpg

Posting this just 'cause it's kinda proa related. This evening, I sketched this proa from a pic I nicked off the internet somewhere. More than likely, Flickr. Not my best, but I haven't drawn anything in a while. Just figured I'd share with the class. :)

Trevor

Gary Dierking
08-26-2011, 11:17 PM
Posting this just 'cause it's kinda proa related. This evening, I sketched this proa from a pic I nicked off the internet somewhere. More than likely, Flickr. Not my best, but I haven't drawn anything in a while. Just figured I'd share with the class. :)

Trevor

Very nice. I've been waiting for some outrigger art from you having seen some of your other work. Keep it up.

Gary Dierking
08-26-2011, 11:22 PM
Consider that four wraps of 3/16" polyester braid fails at about 3000 lbs. Two wraps would probably hold everything together in the worst event but would probably stretch more than I like. How much of the rest of your canoe could handle 3000 lbs of load?

wtarzia
08-26-2011, 11:52 PM
Trevor, that's great! Didn't know you were an artist. -- Wade

trefor
08-27-2011, 09:32 AM
Thanks Gary and Wade! I appreciate the compliments. I plan to do a few more of these. Trevor

Petewp
08-27-2011, 09:18 PM
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6189/6084430674_eb4f9ddf3e.jpg

Posting this just 'cause it's kinda proa related. This evening, I sketched this proa from a pic I nicked off the internet somewhere. More than likely, Flickr. Not my best, but I haven't drawn anything in a while. Just figured I'd share with the class. :)

Trevor

Trevor,

That's a seriously good piece. The subtelties make the piece too - the water, the light on the sail and the very natural pose of the sailor. Not overworked and an solid honest piece. Bravo!

Pete

Petewp
08-27-2011, 09:20 PM
Well,

The tropical storm is on the heels of LI Sound - Wade I say its time tomorrow morning we head out to New Haven Harbor and try out our reefing techniques. ;)

Pete

trefor
08-29-2011, 09:08 AM
Trevor,

That's a seriously good piece. The subtelties make the piece too - the water, the light on the sail and the very natural pose of the sailor. Not overworked and an solid honest piece. Bravo!

Pete

thanks pete!

i'm happy to report that my epoxy and cloth to glass the foam ama of my wa'apa will arrive wednesday. i'm pretty excited about it. i've got the main hull glassed and painted, as well as the steering oar, iakos and leeboard. originally i was going to paint everything a bright orange, but i caved and used leftover almond and white from the previous sailing pram project. all topsides and stems are almond, the rest is white. it's pretty workboat finish, you can definitely see my crap job of fiber glassing. but i'm not real concerned about it. just happy to be back at it again with a possible splash before fall rolls in.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6068/6067067759_c108b65336.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5190/5625392141_847aaf006a.jpg

trev

trefor
08-29-2011, 09:11 AM
hope all you guys in new england are safe and sound. same goes for your boats.

trev

wtarzia
08-29-2011, 10:20 AM
...The tropical storm is on the heels of LI Sound - Wade I say its time tomorrow morning we head out to New Haven Harbor and try out our reefing techniques. ...

--- It would have been a good training, but as in flying, the landing might have been rough. I hope all you East Coasters came through OK. I am without power (though 3 miles away at school, we have power), but my yard looked as though just a bad thunderstorm had passed through. Even the palstic lawn chair I had forgotten about was in its same position. Basement flooded, but all torrential rain storm do that to me, but this time I cannot wet-vac it all out. Flooding can't go over an inch any way -- it drains out through my garage over that, luckily. Empty a bottle of bleach in it and wait... -- Wade

trefor
08-31-2011, 02:42 PM
Kind of nice to see a Marshall Islands proa in the "Launchings" section of the October 2011 WoodenBoat issue, pg. 93. :)

-Trev

peterchech
09-01-2011, 09:24 AM
dam I never get woodenboat in the stores by me early enough...

trefor
09-01-2011, 10:31 AM
it's just a small blurb. but better than the usual none. :)

trev

Shinchan
09-01-2011, 08:30 PM
Aloha, quick question: what would be the stongest method to put together a hard-chined outrigger hull of 1/4' ply, using the stringer screw and glue method (like Gary D's Tamanu/Waapa build) or stitch and glue with epoxy/fiberglass? I'm just looking to build something durable that me or my kids can't destroy(easily) since I'm a newb sailor.....

Dan St Gean
09-02-2011, 09:19 AM
Aloha, quick question: what would be the stongest method to put together a hard-chined outrigger hull of 1/4' ply, using the stringer screw and glue method (like Gary D's Tamanu/Waapa build) or stitch and glue with epoxy/fiberglass? I'm just looking to build something durable that me or my kids can't destroy(easily) since I'm a newb sailor.....

Properly constructed, they should be similarly strong. However, the chine logs do make for a quick and fair hull in less time at potentially a slightly heavier weight. Glassing the bottom over the chine is one other way to get some additional strength. I've thought of building a lightweight Tamanu hull stitch and glue style since I have a set of bulkheads already built. As for strength, 6mm bottom is plenty.

Dan

wtarzia
09-05-2011, 11:41 AM
ANNOUNCING THE TEXAS PROA CHAMPIONSHIP! The only (so far as I know -- the world IS pretty big) proa championship in the western hemisphere. Please go to this link for more information: http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/w/page/14592541/2011%20Texas%20Proa%20Championships -- Wade

JimD
09-07-2011, 10:40 AM
My latest iteration uses both my kayaks. The vaka will be a beamy 15 foot reworked Tursiops, and the ama will be a narrow 17 foot greenland style kayak hull, ballasted to whatever degree is required for stability. I'm hoping a 50# sandbag will do it. Likely it will be an 8 foot beam so I can leave it assembled. I have a couple designs for smaller amas under construction, almost built, but they will wait for a tri configuration.

Wavewacker
09-11-2011, 01:04 PM
Why are the proas lashed on instead of bolted? Are they to have some flex at the attachment instead of being fixed?

JimD
09-11-2011, 01:41 PM
Why are the proas lashed on instead of bolted? Are they to have some flex at the attachment instead of being fixed?

A little flexing is a big part of it. And its traditional as well. Even the big fiberglass outriggers in Hawaii are lashed.

trefor
09-12-2011, 09:38 AM
Happy to report that my Wa'apa has gone fully 3d. I glued the struts into the ama yesterday afternoon. There's still quite a bit to do, but I may actually get to paddle or sail this sucker around a bit before it gets too cold.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6061/6140373486_6d0ceee95d.jpg

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6167/6139822015_68d99014e7.jpg

Trevor

JimD
09-12-2011, 09:45 AM
Nice to see, Trevor. Looks awesome.

wtarzia
09-12-2011, 03:21 PM
Why are the proas lashed on instead of bolted? Are they to have some flex at the attachment instead of being fixed?

--- What JimD said. Bolts are stress concentrators. Well, to put it another way, all attachments points concentrate stress, but (1) lashings spread the stress out over time, ie, the flex (even if that is measured over only a second or so), and (2) lashings spread stress out over space as well, since the amount of surface area touched by lashings is larger that the bolt shaft and washer. For people who assemble their outriggers, sometimes (often?) a well-thought-out lashing scheme using cleats is faster than bolting-up (A speed exception might be for systems that use captured nuts, such as T-nuts, wherein you need only drive a bolt into it. That still might be relatively slow unless you use a battery-powered wrench. Also, you need to keep an eye on bolts since little jiggles can work them free. Really, lashing is one of the good things about outriggers that is not immediately evident). -- Wade

wtarzia
09-12-2011, 03:22 PM
Trevor, almost ready for its baptism! -- Wade

trefor
09-13-2011, 09:27 AM
Yes, almost ready to take her first swim! I've certainly taken long enough to get this far. Had a few roadblocks to completion over the summer, but things seem to be evening out now. Hope it stays that way for a bit, I'm tired of the added stress.

Is Duckworks the cheapest place online to get rigging items? Things like blocks, line, etc? I think I need one 1/4" block for the outhaul and another for the brailing line and three 3/8" for the mainsheet. Unless someone tells me different.

I've got plenty of time to get those. I don't know that I'll end up sailing the boat until March or April, when things warm back up again. Not sure how long it's going to take me to get the boat registered after the sailing bits are completed. I hope to have it painted in the next week or so. The first trip to the water will likely be to just paddle it around and see if I have the lashings tied correctly.

My focus in November will shift to building a couple of skin-on-frame kayaks with a friend of mine. Can't have too many boats, right?

Trevor

wtarzia
09-13-2011, 03:20 PM
Trefor, Duckworks prices are not bad, but factor into them the shipping cost. I order some stuff from Jamestown Distributors, whose prices are a bit higher, but they work quickly (if you need that) and have proven themselves quite professional as when they corrected an order error for me and saved me a few bucks.

As for "how can you have too many boats?" issue -- I don't know any more! I am wondering if we can get more out of your life style by having one superb boat that fits most of what we do, and focusing our time on that one. I sometimes think having a one boat for afternoon quickies (such as a light sailing monohul canoe) and one for full days and cruising (such as a ~20 foot multihull on a trailer) covers most of what would be needed. But then, a boat on a roof vs. a fairly light boat on a trailer are not as different as they might seem, time-wise, unless launching location dictates boat type (for example, when you could sneak a light sailing canoe down some muddy launch areas or twisty-turny access routes.)-- Wade

PeteCress
09-13-2011, 05:26 PM
This is the most idle of curiosity, but I can't help wondering.

"Boomless Lateen Sail" as in 1:18 of http://tinyurl.com/6127ej6.

Seems attractive from a simplicity standpoint: one less hard part flying around for one thing, less weight for another.

But over hundreds (thousands?) of years of Pacific Proa evolution they seem to have been discarded and I'm guessing there is a good reason.

Anybody tried one on as a shunting rig?

PeteCress
09-13-2011, 05:41 PM
A little flexing is a big part of it. And its traditional as well. Even the big fiberglass outriggers in Hawaii are lashed.
If the issue of speed in putting things together is an issue, it looks like some people use racheting cargo straps instead of lashing.

At about :42 they can be seen: http://tinyurl.com/6h55zow


(http://tinyurl.com/6h55zow)

peterchech
09-14-2011, 08:31 AM
Looking good trev! As one serial boat builder to another, I suggest u concentrate on finishing the current boat before starting any new projects. Otherwise when u get stuck on something for the outrigger, it will be too easy to lose interest and just stop building out of frustration.

Rw ropes is the best place for high quality line. They have surplus lengths at very good prices. Duckworks sells racelight blocks for $3.50 each, which are also of good quality. But to be honest, I sailed the first monthps on my boat using just home depot rope and blocks. Before I powered up the rig they were fine. Hell, the Polynesians would have taken cheap poly rope over coir any day! And the cheap poly they sell has some similar qualities, in that it sticks to itself just like coir.

Bootless lateen sails are used in Zanzibar, an island off the east coast of africa with Austronesian influence. Look like tackers to me but not sure.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/39/ZanzibarBeach.jpg

wtarzia
09-14-2011, 08:46 AM
...Bootless lateen sails are used in Zanzibar, an island off the east coast of africa with Austronesian influence. Look like tackers to me but not sure.


--- They are tackers. These double-outriggers use "plank amas" canted at an angle. When to leeward they get some hydrodynamic lift when pushed to leeward. The thickness of the planks of course provides some buoyancy, but not much. Very interesting. Tim Anderson built a plywood hull version of one on a beach in Kenya and has a few things to say about that at www.instructables.com (http://www.instructables.com) in one of his essays. -- Wade

trefor
09-14-2011, 03:33 PM
Looking good trev! As one serial boat builder to another, I suggest u concentrate on finishing the current boat before starting any new projects. Otherwise when u get stuck on something for the outrigger, it will be too easy to lose interest and just stop building out of frustration.

Rw ropes is the best place for high quality line. They have surplus lengths at very good prices. Duckworks sells racelight blocks for $3.50 each, which are also of good quality. But to be honest, I sailed the first monthps on my boat using just home depot rope and blocks. Before I powered up the rig they were fine. Hell, the Polynesians would have taken cheap poly rope over coir any day! And the cheap poly they sell has some similar qualities, in that it sticks to itself just like coir.


thanks!

maybe i'll go the cheap route at first, just to be quick about it and see how the initial rigging goes together. it's not like i haven't gone fairly inexpensive on the boat, already.

trev

PeteCress
09-14-2011, 10:03 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Canoe_Hawaii.jpg

Can anybody identify this canoe.

Call me a wuss, but I'd rather buy than build and that one looks like it might fit my application.

I'm guessing it's about 24' long....maybe a little *too* long... But it looks rightable by one person.

Gary Dierking
09-15-2011, 02:42 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Canoe_Hawaii.jpg

Can anybody identify this canoe.

Call me a wuss, but I'd rather buy than build and that one looks like it might fit my application.

I'm guessing it's about 24' long....maybe a little *too* long... But it looks rightable by one person.

It looks like one of the models from Kailua Kanu in Hawaii:
http://www.kailuakanu.com/Canoes/canoes.html

Shinchan
09-15-2011, 07:37 AM
I asked Jay Dowsett (Kailua Kanu) about the Opae and Opelu canoes back in April and he quoted me $4400 for the Opae and $6600 for the Opelu with ama and set of iakos and lashing lines or quickstraps. He said build time is about 2 weeks.As far as the sailing rigs, you'll have to ask Jay. BTW, the pic is taken outside of Maunalua Bay, Oahu near my house...

OconeePirate
09-16-2011, 03:48 PM
I -think- I've been through this entire thread now... lots of fun stuff in here.

I have a copy of Gary's outrigger book and am considering building a Wa'apa. I'm still kind of torn between it and the Michalak Wooboto. Very different boats, but both meet my (current?) criteria. Before my move I'd finally sort of decided on a build, now I'm on the coast rather than a lake so I get to start the whole game over again.

I've got a question on the construction of the Wa'apa that I haven't been able to find a clear answer to yet. When building it in three sections, how fair is the boat between the ends and the center? The book says that the center isn't quite straight but it seems to me that in that case in either the 16' or the 24' configuration there would be some oddness about the joints. Am I missing something?

Gary Dierking
09-16-2011, 04:12 PM
I -think- I've been through this entire thread now... lots of fun stuff in here.

I have a copy of Gary's outrigger book and am considering building a Wa'apa. I'm still kind of torn between it and the Michalak Wooboto. Very different boats, but both meet my (current?) criteria. Before my move I'd finally sort of decided on a build, now I'm on the coast rather than a lake so I get to start the whole game over again.

I've got a question on the construction of the Wa'apa that I haven't been able to find a clear answer to yet. When building it in three sections, how fair is the boat between the ends and the center? The book says that the center isn't quite straight but it seems to me that in that case in either the 16' or the 24' configuration there would be some oddness about the joints. Am I missing something?

You're absolutely right. It is impossible to have a perfectly fair rocker curve in both the 2 and 3 part configurations. The 3 part is fair and the 2 part 16'er has a slight ridge. If you only wanted a 16'er, it is possible to alter the frames slightly to have it perfectly fair.
Viewing from the top, however, there is no noticeable discontinuity because the mid body is very close to parallel.

Gary

peterchech
09-17-2011, 09:55 AM
Hi oconee welcome to the thread! The rocker profile is barely noticeable and in fact joins up quite well. U read all 30the pages of the thread? Wow! What r u looking for in a boat?

PeteCress
09-17-2011, 10:10 AM
Using a rating scheme of 1-10 with #1 being an OC-1 (e.g. www.huki.com/index.php?page=Outrigger_Bargains (http://www.huki.com/index.php?page=Outrigger_Bargains)) and assuming you had to paddle 10 miles on flat water; how would you rate - for ease of paddling:

- T2

- Wa'Apa

- Tamanu

- Ulua

Assume all 3 are de-rigged - mast/booms/sail lashed to akas.

Would the relative ratings differ in 2-3 foot chop?

In-and-out through small surf?

OconeePirate
09-17-2011, 10:23 AM
Thank you for the quick answer Gary! Thanks for the welcome Peter! It took me a few days, but yes, I think I've read every page of this thread, lol.

Some of my criteria are serious, some are more fun.

I've read every trailer vs. cartop argument on the forum but right now being able to cartop the boat is necessary. My lease doesn't allow me to store a trailer at the house. I'd like something that can easily take two adults, maybe two and a child, camp cruising or at least for long picnic trips. Something stable enough to fish from, I'm not a serious fisherman but do enjoy drowning worms occasionally. Relative ease of build. I know what my woodworking skills are, I don't want to bite off more than I can chew and wind up taking forever to build the boat, or worse yet ditch it unfinished. In dealing with the local tides and river currents everyone tells me a motor is a necessity, so something that will push with a small motor.

For fun I do want something with character. An outrigger canoe definitely has character.

I wanna be able to cartop it, build it from two sheets of plywood, rig it with a tarp sail and a weedeater motor, then singlehandedly circumnavigate the Milkyway in it!

Wavewacker
09-17-2011, 11:33 AM
Speaking of a canoe (sorry to but in, but it's difficult having to keep tri-s in one thread)

I was on an outing a couple years ago and decided we needed to get a canoe. I bought a Dakota, RAM-X 15 1/2 foot canoe at Academy Sporting goods. I do like the material as it is tough, but only used it that one time and it's like new today. To really improve the boat, I would take out the seats and add better framing and replace the plastic gunnels, maybe put a canvas or ply deck on it, sail and try an outrigger set up. OR,

would it really be better to sell the Ram-X boat, buy wood and build a canoe/narrow hulled boat??? Thanks guys!

(This would be a past time sail rig, not my real boat)

peterchech
09-17-2011, 08:36 PM
Waapa isn't a great paddler. Tracks well, but takes alot of work to get anywhere imo.

Canoe with outriggers is so much quicker than building from scratch. But u will be stuck to hull speed. For a lake its fine, but for the coast the low fretboard and higher winds favor an actual build I think.

Iconee an outrigger gives u stability, character and speed, and seaworthiness, but takes longer to build and longer to assemble. The assembly time can be worked out. Build time will be significant though. Lots of parts! But the finished product can probably circumnavigate if it had to. At least it could cross the atlantic.... ask the burlesque brothers lol

JimD
09-18-2011, 10:46 AM
Speaking of a canoe (sorry to but in, but it's difficult having to keep tri-s in one thread)

I was on an outing a couple years ago and decided we needed to get a canoe. I bought a Dakota, RAM-X 15 1/2 foot canoe at Academy Sporting goods. I do like the material as it is tough, but only used it that one time and it's like new today. To really improve the boat, I would take out the seats and add better framing and replace the plastic gunnels, maybe put a canvas or ply deck on it, sail and try an outrigger set up. OR,

would it really be better to sell the Ram-X boat, buy wood and build a canoe/narrow hulled boat??? Thanks guys!

(This would be a past time sail rig, not my real boat)

If it were me, and I already had a canoe, I would likely just modify it rather than start from scratch. For info and ideas on sailing canoes, with or without outriggers, have a good look at this site. Some great vids: http://www.solwaydory.co.uk/

Wavewacker
09-18-2011, 11:35 AM
Thanks, I thought so too, but mine has little rocker to it and might go well with a modest rig and leeboard. It will still be alot of work changing the gunnels, seats and small bulkheads in that skin. The seats (with cup holders) are too high IMO. A spray skirt arrangement might keep it dryer too. Thanks!

wtarzia
09-19-2011, 09:12 AM
(This post mostly cut and pasted from an e-mail to one of the Outrigger Pete's I know, because I would have said the same things to you-all).

Had a nice single-outrigger day yesterday which as ever highlighted the joy's and terrors of small single-outriggers. I will post some Youtubes titled "Sept 18, 2011 sailing" today [ the firdt of three is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0LdKAE_B_k ] -- some good stuff going downwind but less exciting to experienced sailors no doubt. The proa tack is always wet and a little exposed sitting up there on the side seat over the water, and thr trimaran tack is less wet, safer, more comfortable, and faster (in my canoe, anyway).

Left New Haven Lighthouse Point, and headed around the corner to the east as the wind was supposed to NE. But the wind shifted a lot around east, and seemed mostly east, so I felt the full effects of the dictum "gentleman do not beat to windward" as I tried to make Branford Harbor. But then I had a two-day weekend scruff and had not the look of one, FYI.

I went to the NOAA site later and looked at the day’s history; it registered wind directions ENE/E/ESE, and some NE. Wind speeds were centering around 6 and 7 and gusts to 16, which made me feel better at my average 4 knot speeds on the up-wind tacking. That is not terribly bad speed in a crude heavy outrigger when making progress to windward in a chop, getting beat-up in some vicious chop (especially bad between East Breakwater and the shore where the water really piles up at low tide; I was amazed that I made it through there because I have in the past tack back and forth and never made it through, so slowed down by vertical-faced waves and tide that I have to wear around to some other exit. I think I found the limit: any wind under 5 knots and I will not have the power to go through).

Free of the constrictions I headed east to Branford (I thought). Pinching up up produced 3 knots, sometimes necesary to clear jetties and such, but after Iopted for a close reach, speed was better, more like 5 and 6 knots. I would tack out (proa tack) about a mile (buoy #36 was my first mark and set the rhythm for the tacks) then tack back (trimaran tack) until the folk on shore were worried I was going to touch their sacred beach, and tack again. These comparalively short tacks let me stay on the more agreeable trimaran tack a little more than the proa tack. And I could measure windward progress that way by noting which house on the beach I could have hit. (Not much! A quarter mile progress each tack, I would guess.

By 3 PM I was still not at Branford and was unusually cold (despite full waterproofs -- dry skin but evaporative cooling) and tired. I poked into a place called Short Beach, which a pretty little cove -- would love to anchor there and sleep some night, some well protected spots -- as always rich folk own every square inch of land, though there was a little lonely beach on an almost-island that looked inviting for stealth-landing/camping). I wandered around there and decided to head back, though Branford was around the corner. Later that day the Small Craft Advisrory was extended westward to envelope the area, so maybe that was a good idea -- in any event I turned around because I was not interested in beating to windward another hour as the day aged.

The downwind run home was faster and sometimes a little hairy: 7 knot runs until I hit the wave in front of me, plummet to 3, back to 7. Fun except for the constant fight with my rudder, which I suddenly found twists its cheek piece so that the angle of the tiller was far greater than the working angle of the rudder. I would have the tiller as far over as it could be forced and the following wave would still be turning me. That was when I leaned out to see the twist in the cheekpiece. You know, I had better luck with my quicky (but annoyingly sloppy) Indonesian style quarter-rudder! Then I lowered my leeboard, slid it all the way aft in its long rails and bearings, which put its trailing edge 20 inches aft of amidships, and that let me control the boat much better. A clunky-looking leeboard system but man I love it.

But I must solve this damned rudder and tiller-linkage problem. I like the idea of cat-ketches though now I like better the idea of cat-yawls (ketch-mizzensail loses too much power upwind from back-winding), so for the forseeable future I will have a mizzen mast. Right now I have a curved tiller and new linkage made (still must get around the mizzen mast), with altered angles, so I hope something will improve. I do NOT know why I didnot notice this problem during the Everglades Challenge; perhaps because the trimaran conversion with those big inflatable amas changed some variable? -- Wade

Dan St Gean
09-19-2011, 09:43 AM
Well, your different amas, and tri configuration would have made some changes both in the ama buoyancy and in your propensity to hiking out. I'll warrent you did have some rudder twist issues in the EC as the blade had to work loose somehow.

What's the law in your area as to the public/private ownership of the intertidal zone? if you could find a quiet cove, you could set up aboard for a nice little ovenight. How about something like Jim Brown's deck he put together for the W17?

Thanks for the writeup!

Dan

wtarzia
09-19-2011, 02:27 PM
...I'll warrent you did have some rudder twist issues in the EC as the blade had to work loose somehow.

What's the law in your area as to the public/private ownership of the intertidal zone? if you could find a quiet cove, you could set up aboard for a nice little ovenight. How about something like Jim Brown's deck he put together for the W17?...

--- That's true about the twist -- it would have imparted some differential force on the nut that could loosen it up and continue to loosen it. Huh. The CT laws allow beaching in the intertidal zone I think. But I would happy to anchor. I slept aboard once in trying conditions, and to sleep aboard a canoe made for that wouldn't be so bad. Not the W17 deck on my boat, though. I am thinking of a half-deck on the Tamanu (ama side). --Wade

PeteCress
09-19-2011, 09:23 PM
... and to sleep aboard a canoe made for that wouldn't be so bad....I am thinking of a half-deck on the Tamanu (ama side)
Grill seems tb sleeping on the ama side of his T2 on a fairly regular basis. ref: GrillabongQuixotic.wordpress.com

He even has a sort of tent that he rigs at night.

My guess is that it depends on body size and a few other characteristics that luckier people than Yours Truly have.

The Bigfella
09-19-2011, 09:33 PM
I've posted a few outrigger photos over on my trip thread (sorry, haven't got the link.... damn slow 'net here)

Here's one... a dugout with a couple of planks on top and bamboo outriggers. There's half a dozen shots or more on the other thread.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Cape%20and%20Asia/b38.jpg

Took this one on Saturday on Atauro Island (Timor-Leste)

upchurchmr
09-19-2011, 09:47 PM
Wtarzia

I enjoyed the Video you posted above. Is there somewhere I can see a discription of Short Dragon? You have posted a lot about it but I don't have a clear understanding of the geometry and the reasons for your design.

Thanks,
Marc

wtarzia
09-20-2011, 09:01 AM
...I enjoyed the Video you posted above. Is there somewhere I can see a discription of Short Dragon? You have posted a lot about it but I don't have a clear understanding of the geometry and the reasons for your design. ...

--- I have a page about Short Dragon at www.wtarzia.com (http://www.wtarzia.com), click on the "outrigger" button. I have a full construction description (though sometimes more creative than technical in writing style) at www.instructables.com (http://www.instructables.com), search for the article "How to Build a Short Dragon." There is a bunch more videos on Youtube, but after a while they all start looking the same :-) .

The geometry is simple: a symmetrical 16 foot long hull (a little over 3 inches of rocker centered) meant to be a shunting proa but actually used as a tacking outrigger. Sharpie construction (CDX ply, 6 oz glass epoxied outside) to suit my low skills and budget; built too heavy because it organically grew from open-hull experiment to decked-in, compartmented hull for sea worthiness; 14 foot deep-V ama for simplicity (but it is not a bad shape for a shunting proa). Overall beam 7 feet (too narrow) because of my garage storage necessity. Cat-ketch rig to keep forces low and sail expenses cheap (store-bought production sails from the Nutshell and Shellback kit boats that the Wooden Boat store sells). -- Wade

wtarzia
09-20-2011, 09:14 AM
Grill seems tb sleeping on the ama side of his T2 on a fairly regular basis. ref: GrillabongQuixotic.wordpress.com ....

--- I've seen that. What an amazing cruise! I prefer sleeping in the main hull. Maybe that is wrong but after waking up anchored off Venice Inlet and watching big rollers passing by my eyeballs, I was sold on the concept of staying inside the hull. I had 16 inche clearance amidships between the ribs, and about 17 inches at my shooulders -- a little cramped but it was snug. The 6 inch topsides over the sleep-deck were a bit too low for comfort, so I slept on my back (I prefer my side) given that the water began right outside the gunwales.

A deeper sleep deck would be preferred, but probably not possible on a Tamanu or most skinny outriggers (I think I can go deeper than 6 inches, though). But what I would like is more width to set up a dodger-tent on hoops (easy fold up/down), sort of what Steve Isaac and Matt Layden designed on the Tridarka Raider trimaran. With a side deck on the ama side, there is room for sitting on the proa-tack, and width for a minimal roofed area (the tent) and a platform to put things when setting up and taking down. I am thinking, ~ 18 inches of side-deck along the cockpit on the ama side, with some provision in the aft cockpit to move out further if extreme hiking is called for (or a desperate final leap for the ama in a capsize situation).

One of the un-thought-about problems during my one night in the EC was where to put things on a 22 inch hull as I delved into the center compartment for stuff. It was a horror story -- I had to sit on things to keep them from going in the water, etc. A side deck for sitting (with a lip some inches high) would have been just the thing. I did not use a net because I wanted the hull sides clear for paddling (and I ended up having to do a lot of that). A Tamanu might be just wide enough for a pair of short oars -- who knows? I will find out. --Wade

PeteCress
09-21-2011, 09:38 AM
I'm not an innovator in this field. I do what Gary does, but with a 24' Ulua. This works for me with my light ama. When I'm toting my larger ama, it rides alongside the vaka and gets quickly lashed with light tie down straps. I use the Marquesan quick connect boards that are spec'd on the wa'apa's ama. This is fast, like 10 minutes fast.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/outrigger/7335835/in/set-185726/

David

Great series of pix!

Two Questions:

- Do you experience any issues with stability at turnpike speeds? I'm thinking tipping with
the narrow wheelbase and higher COG.

- How did the weight come out with the longer build?