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wtarzia
05-14-2012, 09:36 AM
Yes, do not anger Tangaroa! I carried a figurine of him with me during both EC attempts, and twice he punished us (I crewed for Carlos during #1) for not paying attention to every detail that could go wrong. But Tangaroa is just. I am not complaining or anything.... -- Wade

PeteCress
05-17-2012, 05:34 PM
I'm finding my brailing line tb problematic.

It works when the sail is in a relatively-normal attitude, but when it's straight downwind, it tends to bind. Starboard's not so bad, but port is pretty dysfunctional. Less bad if I replace the rings with pulleys, but still not good - and the pulleys introduce their own little twists...literally - in that they can flip around so the line hangs up on the body.

e.g.
Port: http://tinyurl.com/7o2ln9x
Starboard: http://tinyurl.com/75nlnjk

At first I thought it was my goofy boom/mast connection, but it seems like even with the standard U-interface the same problem would occur where the boom on one tack contends with the line.

Has anybody got a link to a setup that works for them?

DavePont
05-17-2012, 11:00 PM
I'm finding my brailing line tb problematic.
Has anybody got a link to a setup that works for them?

Hi Pete, I enjoyed also seeing your recent pics of the trolley setup and on the water - looking mighty fine!

Re brail line - I had that setup but only really used it to furl and unfurl the sail. But I have two ideas that might work?

1 - 'Reverse' the run of the brail line as follows: Tie the brail line at the boom (not the mast), run to a block on the mast (not the boom), back on the opposite side of the sail to a block on the boom (not the mast), then run along the boom to a small block hanging below the boom, near the boom jaws, then back to your hand. Same as standard but reversed if you follow me. The upshot is the line ends up running along the underside of the boom to a block and back to your hand - it should not get fouled up by the boom?

2 - Run the brail line as per the book, bring it to a small block on the front side of the mast slightly above boom jaws, run the line forward to a small block (perhaps at front manu?) then back to your hand. Again this will avoid getting trapped by the boom? Maybe a bit odd, uses an extra block, but could work?

I'd try option 1, you can probably leave all but one of the existing blocks where they are, just run the line 'backwards'.

Happy sailing - winter is descending here - I'm jealous, Dave

wtarzia
05-18-2012, 09:38 AM
On my crabclaw proa I used the brails all the time (double brails). They almost always worked well (almost = 95%), and I don't know why because I used only cheap Home Depot line and pulleys/blocks. I tried to use them ultra-native-like :-) so I experimented with cleating the WW one to add/substract draft (seemed to work a little in light air, but that was my pre-GPS days so this feeling is subjective), and the LW one to "cut" the sail to depower. Also, to rapidly brail up the sail (both brails hauled) when the sail went aback --the brailing brought COE forward and the bow fell off; I still do not know if this behavior was a quirk of my boat/rig or a general possibility.

The blocks were at the masthead (their positioning is important there; experimnent). I ran the brailing lines down the mast and stowed their ends on a home-made jam cleat on the mast within reach (eye level). I took care to untwist the lines so they ran free, and observe the behavior of the blocks to make sure they were lashed so as to not twist and jam. I did a lot of drive-way practice to test them, but wind will do funny things as the hardware is pushed, pulled, and pressed, so drive-way tests will not solve all.

Note that I used two separate lines (native style), WW and LW, and each had a dedicated jam-cleat off-set on the mast to keep track which-was-which. In a pinch one brail would always work, and putting a big U shape in the sail will de-power. When I lowered the sail and fed-out the two lines and cleated them, the bundled sail hung as on lazy-jacks. Very convenient at the ramp. However, I usually brailed the sail UP at the ramp (boom held up against the yard). Launch meant pushing off and unbrailing (dropping the yard) and ready to go. --Wade

Dusty Yevsky
05-18-2012, 10:02 AM
Wade,
What size lines did you use for the brailing lines/lazyjacks? Also, did you ever consider using cheekblocks on the masthead instead of lashed blocks?

wtarzia
05-18-2012, 11:04 AM
Wade,
What size lines did you use for the brailing lines/lazyjacks? Also, did you ever consider using cheekblocks on the masthead instead of lashed blocks?

--- Lines were quarter-inch poly (cheap yellow stuff from Home Depot). I was on a buget in those days, so, no, I didn't consider cheekblocks. If the angles worked out, and the blocks did not need a little free-movement to work, then they sound good. It *might* even be possible to build a swell in the masthead and drill big flaring holes, coated inside with epoxy-graphite, to run brails and halyard. I don't know, maybe. I used such a hole for the halyard but at the time felt that smooth-running was so important for the brails that they should have blocks. -- Wade

Dusty Yevsky
05-18-2012, 11:27 AM
--- Lines were quarter-inch poly (cheap yellow stuff from Home Depot). I was on a buget in those days, so, no, I didn't consider cheekblocks. If the angles worked out, and the blocks did not need a little free-movement to work, then they sound good. It *might* even be possible to build a swell in the masthead and drill big flaring holes, coated inside with epoxy-graphite, to run brails and halyard. I don't know, maybe. I used such a hole for the halyard but at the time felt that smooth-running was so important for the brails that they should have blocks. -- Wade

Thanks for the info. I'm working out/stumbling through the rigging of a crabclaw. I'm going use a pair of traditional WW/LW brailers but I was thinking of joining them past the blocks and using a single lead down to the cleat on the mast. I'm really trying to minimize the amount of lines in the cockpit. How much value was there in having two seperate leads? I envision mostly using the brailers as lazyjacks when raising or dropping the sail, or brailing the sail up against the yard, as you mentioned.

wtarzia
05-18-2012, 12:19 PM
...How much value was there in having two seperate leads? I envision mostly using the brailers as lazyjacks when raising or dropping the sail, or brailing the sail up against the yard, as you mentioned.

--- This depends on how you will typically use them. I strongly believe you ought to start out with separate brails, then use the boat. If it turns out you only use them for lazyjacks, fine, join thelines, simplify the cockpit mess. But if you begin with simple, that is like removing a whole cognitive category in the mind -- the world will have options that the mind will not soon recognize. But I wholly get the problem of a complex cockpit, especially in a narrow hull. The day I raised three sails in my tacking outrigger I was wishing to go back to the 'simple' cat-ketch, and that was with one-sheet to the boomed jib. The nice thing with the brails, though, is that they can cleat to the mast, thus confusion and tangling is limited compared to the scenario of all lines run to a single cockpit zone. I have found that the attachment points can be planned in non-confusing control-board style, but the line *after* the control points becomes chaotic and even dangerous if each fall (bight?) is not separately contained in a narrow hull. Narrow hulls focus the confusion into high-density confusion -- I must try a folksy proverb style to say that :-) . -- Wade

Dusty Yevsky
05-18-2012, 02:52 PM
Narrow hulls focus the confusion into high-density confusion -- I must try a folksy proverb style to say that :-) . -- Wade

Wade,
Thanks for the advice. Im really trying to avoid a big pile of spaghetti in the bottom of the proa.

Marine, marinara, .. hmm,... I sense a connection.

wtarzia
05-18-2012, 03:08 PM
Maybe each line could be wound on a spool that has light tension -- light enough to allow uncleating and re-cleating, but the tension would spool up the fall of the line -- it could powered by the hydraulics of passing water :-) --Wade

PeteCress
05-18-2012, 07:49 PM
I'm coming around to thinking that my brailing line issue is one more reason to get on with the stubby-mast setup.

To wit:


Even with the sail brailed, there is a *lot* of windage up there... lots of wind, lee shore where not all of it is something you'd want to run up on....
.
A brailed sail flogs noisely - not the way to win the hearts and minds of fellow beach-goers
.
If one wants do cut the power, nothing beats just dropping the sail.
.
Rigging on a windy day, it sb easier to insert just a stubby than to manage 16' of windsurfer mast/brailed sail/boom. This one is theoretical bc I have yet to experience any real problem inserting the rig the way it is.
.
A stubby setup should largely mitigate the recurring problems I have now with mis-orienting the mast when I insert it (as in inserting it twisted 180 so that my hold-down line doesn't line up or the brailing pulleys are on the wrong side, and so-on-and-so-forth.
.
Push-comes-to-shove on a really windy day recovering from capsize, I can easily imagine that a lowered stubby rig would be friendlier than the rig I have blowing this-way-and-that, maybe even capsizing the flooded boat again.... until I can crawl up into the hull.

OTOH, there have tb downsides to a stubby rig.

Can anybody enumerate some?

Dan St Gean
05-18-2012, 10:59 PM
One more stick? You should try a turning block up at the bow and rig a cleat at the mast base or on the aka. You could use the stub rig you have if you want to give it a try without having to fabricate everything. The flat side goes aft on it btw. Tie the line to the mast and make up a jaws setup. it doesn't have to be bulky and could also incorporate a line around the mast to secure the slim jaws from popping off the mast. I'd do the mast base right on the aka, but use the Dierking lashed style so you could cast off the whole mess to the akas once bundled or brailed. I did three things wrong with that mess. The first was using a sprit boom. nice for light sheet tension, but not so much when trying for simplicity. The second was using a regular windsurfing mast base. I lost the spring clip with the button to hold the mast extension and had to swim at the dick for what seemed like a very long time until I found it. Finally having a full battened design was no good for a sail I wanted to brail.

None of this was a problem in version 1.0 which was a halyard raised sail on a beefy mast. However, 128 squares of cloth on an open canoe was a bit muchn without stays. One thing affects the nest in boat design that's for sure.

Dan

trefor
05-21-2012, 11:07 AM
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7101/7225038662_7958d07892_z.jpg

On Friday, I finally got a real day of sailing in on my 16' Wa'apa. I couldn't be happier with it. If anyone is interested, I have a short account of my day and a very low quality video on my blog. This is going to be a fun summer!
http://trevor-whatever.blogspot.com/2012/05/official-waapa-outrigger-sailing-canoe.html

Trevor

PeteCress
05-21-2012, 11:58 AM
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7101/7225038662_7958d07892_z.jpg

On Friday, I finally
From another photo, I got the impression that the steering oar was lashed to the iako.

True?

If so, can you slide it fore-aft to use the blade differently? (i.e. way back and shallow as an oar or closer to the boat and more vertical as a sort of rudder?)

trefor
05-21-2012, 12:34 PM
From another photo, I got the impression that the steering oar was lashed to the iako.

True?

If so, can you slide it fore-aft to use the blade differently? (i.e. way back and shallow as an oar or closer to the boat and more vertical as a sort of rudder?)


I lashed the steering oar directly to the rear iako, in the same manner I lashed the iakos to the main canoe hull. I lashed a bit of bicycle inner tube to either side of it and on the upper part of the oar handle to keep it all from slipping much. I found that I didn't really need to slide the oar back and forth in the lashing, but I could easily lever the handle up and push more of the blade into a deeper vertical position in the water. I could also twist the handle side to side to adjust the oar blade in the water to act like a rudder.

I've done a lot of cost cutting measures on this boat, if you see something that looks odd, it's usually due to a limited budget and access to finer wood working tools. For example: the straight iakos over the designed curved ones. When working on them, I only had access to dimensional big box store lumber and no table saw or circular saw to cut planks up for lamination. Which lead to the strut setup on the ama. Also, I couldn't afford epoxy at the start and built the main hull with PL Premium adhesive and SurePly underlayment and glassed it in polyester. Later, more funds materialized and I was able to make a foam/epoxy glass ama instead of the hollow wooden one I had started fashioning. In the pic, the boom jaws are missing. I broke them last week while messing with the brailing line. I smashed off the epoxied jaws with a hammer and lashed it on through the bolt holes for the time being. The sail is also a $20 tarp and duct tape job. it'll have to do for now.

Nothing was done in thinking I'd better the design, but more on what will get by for now and have me sailing sooner. I've spent less than $600 on it, over 19 months construction. I'm lucky it sails and looks OK. If I had enough money at the start of the build, I'd have done it 100 percent to Mr. Dierking's plans, with no deviation.

Trevor

RKDJONES
05-21-2012, 01:36 PM
I just joined the discussion. I am getting off on a tangent, but wasn't sure how to navigate this forum to ask my questions. I'm just starting to mess around with outrigger boats. I have big dreams but am starting with modifying a glass kayak to make a kneeling canoe with a small ama (I want to kneel paddle with a single-bladed paddle for ergonomic reasons; the ama is to accomodate my high center of gravity). I am protoyping with a piece of ABS pipe for the ama. I can heat the ends and pinch them and epoxy the gap, to get sharp bow/stern (I have never seen anyone else try this method). I have 2 questions:
What is the minimum buoyancy I need for the AMA for paddling - what is found on OC1s?
I am thinking about using a 1" Al tube epoxied into the ama as my connection for the ama. I would run it all the way through the abs pipe top and bottom, and epoxy at both places (then round and seal the bottom of the Al tube). Do you think this would work? Robert (in Seattle)

John Bell
05-21-2012, 02:08 PM
We had a Wa'apa on the FL210 this week. He looked to go ok, but the very rough conditions at Pensacola pass on Saturday morning (wind against tide) got the best of him.

I was monitoring 16 from further up the bay when I heard the USCG Pensacola hail the sailing vessel Wa'apa to say 'no you can't land here in this restricted area' and lengthy radio conversation ensued. Someone took him in tow and saved a bad situation. I later heard he broke the oarlock that held his steering oar. In light of this situation, lashing seems like a sound idea to me.

PeteCress
05-21-2012, 02:35 PM
...I later heard he broke the oarlock that held his steering oar. In light of this situation, lashing seems like a sound idea to me.
IMHO it also speaks well for having a half-dozen 1" strips of truck inner tube handy at all times.

I'm coming around to preferring to use my steering paddle on trimaran tack and the steering oar on proa tack.

Maybe that will change if/when I put a pola on the other side and sit outboard instead on in the main hull on trimaran tack, but it's still nice to know I can get home if the steering oar breaks. It's also a comfort to know that if the steering oar goes overboard I can maneuver enough to go back and retrieve it under sail.

OTOH, the bottom of my main hull is looking pretty messy with a steering paddle, a paddling paddle, an Inuit paddle, a couple of bailers, a "glovebox" bag, 1 or more life jackets, 20 feet of mainsheet, 10 feet of brailing line.... and so-forth.

I've even cracked the Inuit paddle twice now by steping on it.

wtarzia
05-21-2012, 02:37 PM
...On Friday, I finally got a real day of sailing in on my 16' Wa'apa. I couldn't be happier with it. If anyone is interested, I have a short account of my day and a very low quality video on my blog. This is going to be a fun summer!
http://trevor-whatever.blogspot.com/2012/05/official-waapa-outrigger-sailing-canoe.html ...

--- Have fun! What a feeling it is, going out in a boat you made. -- Wade

DavePont
05-21-2012, 06:25 PM
On Friday, I finally got a real day of sailing in on my 16' Wa'apa. I couldn't be happier with it. Trevor
Way to go Trevor, your Wa'apa looks great and so does the sailing venue. How far is it from home?

I've noticed the threads I follow have gone quiet. My theory is in the Northern Hemisphere everyone has been busy doing final work to get on the water - no time for chit chat. Meanwhile here in the Antipodes it is getting a bit cold for sailing so we have nothing to report, but too soon to get into winter projects.

regards, Dave

DavePont
05-21-2012, 06:58 PM
I am protoyping with a piece of ABS pipe for the ama. I can heat the ends and pinch them and epoxy the gap, to get sharp bow/stern (I have never seen anyone else try this method). What is the minimum buoyancy I need for the AMA for paddling - what is found on OC1s?
I am thinking about using a 1" Al tube epoxied into the ama as my connection for the ama. I would run it all the way through the abs pipe top and bottom, and epoxy at both places (then round and seal the bottom of the Al tube). Do you think this would work? Robert (in Seattle)

Hi Robert, welcome to the thread. Your project sounds interesting, a little bit different to the usual.

Way back I did see pics and text online where someone did as you describe. They cut long narrow V shaped pieces out of the top and bottom of the pipe, rounded the side flaps a bit, heated and bent them in. Can't remember how they joined - but recently read about an 'airless plastic welder'. A large soldering iron might work too? Long narrow strips of offcut as welding rods?

Gary Dierking's blog is worth a look, his approach was to make a light nose cone, also some ideas for ama attachment there:

http://outriggersailingcanoes.blogspot.co.nz/search?q=pvc


I don't know much about buoyancy beyond the obvious - you probably won't need much. Would you have a smallish ama on a single crossbeam, or longer ama and 2 crossbeams? The latter will require approx 6' between crossbeams for paddling so easy 8' of ABS pipe, this is going to be plenty flotation. The other main variable is how far between hull and ama - the greater the distance the less flotation needed, but stronger crossbeam needed.

cheers, dave

PeteCress
05-21-2012, 08:00 PM
What is the minimum buoyancy I need for the AMA for paddling - what is found on OC1s?
I'd give Jude at Huki a call. He is roughly in your neighborhood and has been designing OC-1s for quite a few years.

For your application, I would say that finding a used OC-1 ama (and maybe iakos too) would be the brass ring.

Also look in to how they do the iakos on OC-1s. They make them tunable so you can have a lot, a little, or virtually no help from the ama. The flip side of help from the ama, of course, is speed.

wtarzia
05-21-2012, 08:48 PM
I should think you'd want at least 50 pounds of volume for paddling, but shape is important too, for the shape of the typical water of your area. Yes, ask WWTHD? They are the experts, though somewhat specialized toward surfing in bigger waves? Look at the shapes of the Indonesian amas on the double outriggers -- long straight thin sections. They do not seem to have surfing in mind during their day-fishing not too far out. -- Wade

Dan St Gean
05-21-2012, 09:38 PM
Yes, ask WWTHD?
Wade

Fantastic...I nearly spit my coffee on the screen.

Dan

trefor
05-22-2012, 09:13 AM
Way to go Trevor, your Wa'apa looks great and so does the sailing venue. How far is it from home?

I've noticed the threads I follow have gone quiet. My theory is in the Northern Hemisphere everyone has been busy doing final work to get on the water - no time for chit chat. Meanwhile here in the Antipodes it is getting a bit cold for sailing so we have nothing to report, but too soon to get into winter projects.

regards, Dave

Thanks, Dave!

Fellows Lake is only about 15 minutes drive north of town. Which becomes half an hour in any kind of traffic, living on the south side. It's a small reservoir (820 acres) that the city gets part of its drinking water from. It's the easiest sailing area to get to, when i only have a little time available to me. If I really wanted decent sailing, Stockton Lake is about an hour northwest of me and it's supposed to be one of the top sailing lakes in the country. There's always wind. The first weekend in June should see me camping and sailing up that way.

I've been pretty quiet, getting things ready on this boat and finishing up a couple of skin-on-frame kayaks with a friend of mine. We're hoping to have those done in the next 2-3 weeks. We've only been working on them one evening a week, so they've been a long project, as well.

But, I hope to start posting sailing adventure pics throughout the summer. Stockton Lake has a few islands that I'd like to sail out to and camp on. And so does Table Rock Lake, to the south about 45 minutes.

Trevor

Shan Skailyn
05-22-2012, 07:52 PM
Trevor, nice looking boat. I've been a silent observer of your construction process since I began dreaming of building Shan Skailyn. I appreciated the pix and details. I'm jealous! You get to take your creation out for a spin while mine sits under a roof on the other side of the world... still incomplete. Someday!

trefor
05-23-2012, 10:19 AM
Trevor, nice looking boat. I've been a silent observer of your construction process since I began dreaming of building Shan Skailyn. I appreciated the pix and details. I'm jealous! You get to take your creation out for a spin while mine sits under a roof on the other side of the world... still incomplete. Someday!


Thank you!

I'm a bit neurotic on recording things. Hence all the pics. I figure, photos are cheap anymore, with everything being digital, so there's not much excuse not to. Beyond a little apathy.

Sorry your boat is half a world away. I'd been following your progress, as well. Your boat has a much better paint job.

-Trevor

Rob Kearney
05-23-2012, 01:17 PM
Great looking job, Trevor! Definitely an inspiration. I'm gunning to spash mine some time this summer. I don't know
how I've managed to drag this out more than a year.

- Rob

trefor
05-23-2012, 02:33 PM
Rob,

Don't feel too bad. Mine took about 19 months. I had a few setbacks along the way — wrecked car, buying a new one, dog died (a yellow lab, more like a four-legged firstborn child than a pet), collapsed septic tank in the backyard, etc. Just basic life stuff. It happens. Just keep plugging away. Mine was built primarily over my lunch hours. I only have a 5-10 minute work commute, though.

Trevor

wtarzia
05-24-2012, 10:33 PM
Well folk, it just figures. I am ready at last to get the proa on the trailer and lash him together and set up the stays, when the contractor decides this is the week to start the siding and roofing job = a pile of debris in front of the garage door. --Wade

PeteCress
05-25-2012, 08:56 AM
Well folk, it just figures. I am ready at last to get the proa on the trailer and lash him together and set up the stays, when the contractor decides this is the week to start the siding and roofing job = a pile of debris in front of the garage door. --Wade
Have you built another proa? Or is it the old one from before Short Dragon?

wtarzia
05-25-2012, 11:17 AM
No, I meant Short Dragon. And if I can get him out of the garage on the trailer, and the sharpie in the backyard on saw horses, I can start the Tamanu in the garage (with a sailing duck punt on the side as a condiment). The nextdoor landlord is renting his garages for $75/month, dirt floors (no hassle for epoxy drips!), I almost could use one by now. In fact, it might even make sense just for a year of the Tamanu build so I can keep Short Dragon in the garage during sailing season. It is a tease having the yard I have -- 1/16 acre, enough room for a small fleet out back, but neighbor property and retaining wall on each side of house in practical terms prevents backyard for use as boat-on-trailer storage. -- Wade

PeteCress
05-26-2012, 09:12 PM
If I'm using the steering oar, there's a steering paddle, a paddling paddle, and an Inuit paddle laying in the bottom of the hull. Steering and paddling paddles aren't doing so bad bc their blades are up front and I'm only stomping on the handles when sailing solo. But the Inuit paddle is taking a beating.

Seems like if I strap something under the pola, I'll never know when it inevitably falls off. On top of the pola it would be contending with either my seating or the crew's seating.

Does anybody have a neat way to stow stuff like this in an open hull? The Inuit paddle doesn't have to be that readily accessible, but I need tb able to grab the steering paddle easily. Ditto the paddling paddle to a lesser extent.

Flat against the upper inside of the hull is calling out to me, but I don't want to start drilling holes until I hear about something that works for somebody.

Blades on the floor up front and handles/Inuit blade in some sort of sling under the passenger seat also has a certain ring to it.

Who has something that works for them?


Also, there's the capsize scenario... Everhthing else is tied down or at least 'binered to something. But paddles floating here, paddles floating there...... I'm thinking about leashes for the steering paddle and steering oar.

Dan St Gean
05-27-2012, 09:58 AM
Try one of the paddle clips that duckworks sells

wtarzia
05-28-2012, 01:46 PM
I use a wooden bracket at the end of my side seat to shove my short single-paddle (the one I use most); it is tight enough to wedge the paddle-blade in there. This is a good place when you know you will need sudden fast-draw access to a paddle -- for example, threading through a mooring area under sail, or getting away from a crowded launch ramp area where there is all sorts of craziness such as jetskis and goofs. For that I usually do not tether, but once cruising, I either tether the paddle or put it where it will not be likely to float free in a capsize (tether is best). Now, can lines tangle around a canoe paddle stowed like that? Yes. But lines can and will tangle around everything. Pick your poison.

A tethered paddle can be annoying during long periods, so I took my tether off during the EC. That was the paddle I lost overboard in a moment's exhausted oversight as I set it aside for a second. I think the carabiner was bothing me because I had a loop on the handle of the paddle, and the tether had the carabiner. But if you are going to paddle witgh a tether, the tether should be attached (a hitch or something) to the handle and have its 'biner on the end to attach to the boat for least annoyance while paddling. And carry a spare paddle. -- Wade

PeteCress
05-28-2012, 02:45 PM
And carry a spare paddle.
I'm coming around to thinking there is a corollary to the woodworker's "You can never have too many clamps..."

trefor
05-29-2012, 09:25 AM
http://youtu.be/pV6Myy1pS5Q

I took the Wa'apa out again on Saturday. Just for a couple of hours, but I got to test it out in a bit more wind than the previous weekend. I think it was out of the south and southeast at 10-15 MPH, changing directions often by about 35 degrees. Got the boat up to 7.22 MPH by my iPhone GPS. I'm not sure what speeds to be expecting from the boat, but it's still a lot faster than my pokey old sailing dinghy, so I'm quite happy.

I plan to take it to a larger, windier lake this coming Saturday, if the rain holds off. But, I'll be sailing two-up with my wife. I apologize for the low vid quality. Watching with sound isn't necessary and the shadow halo is the shroud on the waterproof camera housing. It shifts around quite a bit.

-Trevor

Dan St Gean
05-29-2012, 09:32 AM
Alright guys,

I'm trying to thin the herd boat wise at my house. I have already sold my strip built kayak and my Ulua as well. that leaves me with my SUP, a Hobie 18, and my Tamanu hull. I've been using the tamanu as a big beachcat for some volume and freeboard coupled with the Hobie 18 gear. It works well and is a huge boat. However, I've been thinking of doing something smaller and more of a solo + kind of boat. I've been thinking of using the Tamanu as a trimaran using some of the parts and pieces I have already and further thinning the herd. I could sell the 18 or just parts and recoup the initial investment (and then some since I bought it so cheap), use the parts and pieces I want and put together a nice tri based on these parts and Gary's folding setup--although Randy Smyth's pantographing setup hold some appeal for speedy lanches as well.

So...what do you all think, this:

http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/1246332763/Leaving%20Port%20Mansfield%20.jpg
or this:
http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/EasyRider-tri.jpg

Ultimately, I think I'd like to have a light solo+ boat & a big cat for cruising, but how best to use the Tamanu hull? Cat or tri? I'm kinda leaning tri since a cat would be better with a transomed hull. Your thoughts?

trefor
05-29-2012, 04:00 PM
http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/EasyRider-tri.jpg



Dan,

The tri setup looks really cool and stable. You already know how to build the amas and iakos from your ulua build. Seems like a logical choice. Will you go with the Hawaiian sailing rig, per the illustration?

Trevor

trefor
05-29-2012, 05:08 PM
I've got a couple of odd questions running through my head today. If anyone knows why I should or shouldn't entertain these ideas, please fill me in?

On the Hawaiian-style sail rig, would a snotter system work for holding the boom in place, much like a sprit rig? Using it instead of a boom jaw system?

And even though I actually like the steering oar on my Wa'apa, would a lashed on rudder system work? Something similar to the cassette rudder that Michael Storer often uses, only with the cassette part lashed to the rear iako like a James Wharram catamaran?

Trevor

Gary Dierking
05-29-2012, 05:21 PM
I've got a couple of odd questions running through my head today. If anyone knows why I should or shouldn't entertain these ideas, please fill me in?

On the Hawaiian-style sail rig, would a snotter system work for holding the boom in place, much like a sprit rig? Using it instead of a boom jaw system?

And even though I actually like the steering oar on my Wa'apa, would a lashed on rudder system work? Something similar to the cassette rudder that Michael Storer often uses, only with the cassette part lashed to the rear iako like a James Wharram catamaran?

Trevor

The snotter works fine as a replacement for jaws. I used that method in Fiji where I didn't want to bother with making jaws with the few tools I had. I'm sure the asymmetry puts some people off but I doubt that there's any loss of performance.
I've seen the Wharram lashed rudder work well on a Wharram, but it needs a long length to be stable enough. I've tried it over 6-8" but that isn't good enough and the rudder wags sideways too much. Lashing it down the length of the Wa'apa stern should work as well as a Wharram.

PeteCress
05-29-2012, 09:09 PM
On the Hawaiian-style sail rig, would a snotter system work for holding the boom in place, much like a sprit rig? Using it instead of a boom jaw system?
It worked for me: http://tinyurl.com/85gbk6e although I have since gone to boom jaws.

I got the idea from here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk5m6jJpmBI

PeteCress
05-29-2012, 09:14 PM
I plan to take it to a larger, windier lake this coming Saturday...
Is there a bailing bucket in there and I just did not see it?

flsail
05-30-2012, 08:56 AM
Just started a new Ulua build. I had a Wa'apa started, but after getting a pile of nice cedar and cypress free from some friends I couldn't resist the allure of the Ulua. Looking forward to a fun build and a nice light cartopable boat! I'm sticking close to the plans as closely as possible. For the rig I have an old Mistral windsurfing mast and 6.3m sail that I would like to use with a stub mast. I don't have the universal mast step, or a boom so I will have to fabricate those or find some used.

I will be posting pics and blogs to my site www.flsail.com (http://www.flsail.com)



Cheers!
Jon

Dan St Gean
05-30-2012, 09:29 AM
Jon,
Where in FL are you? I'm heading down next week to Sanibel.

Gary,
Do you remember how much the foam stripper Ulua weighed?

Dan

trefor
05-30-2012, 09:31 AM
The snotter works fine as a replacement for jaws. I used that method in Fiji where I didn't want to bother with making jaws with the few tools I had. I'm sure the asymmetry puts some people off but I doubt that there's any loss of performance.
I've seen the Wharram lashed rudder work well on a Wharram, but it needs a long length to be stable enough. I've tried it over 6-8" but that isn't good enough and the rudder wags sideways too much. Lashing it down the length of the Wa'apa stern should work as well as a Wharram.


Thanks, Gary!

It's good to know what's feasible and what isn't. I may temporarily do the snotter setup on my boom, since I broke my boom jaws before ever really sailing the boat. I'm used to sprit rigs, having sailed my previously home built dinghy with both a four-sided and leg-of-mutton sprit.

I'll toss out the rudder idea, though. I don't really want to muck up my rear stem with a rudder. If I move back to Florida anytime soon (which I'm trying to talk my wife into), I'd like to rig the boat as a proa. I'd have done it to begin with, but our winds are just too inconsistent in direction here. Often shifting by 34-45 degrees at a time.

Trevor

trefor
05-30-2012, 09:37 AM
Is there a bailing bucket in there and I just did not see it?

Yes! I have a 1 gallon milk jug with the bottom cut off, tied by the handle to a line on the rear stem of the boat. I also have a 3.5 gallon bucket that I sit on while paddling or sailing the boat from in the hull. And there was a collapsible canvas bucket in the yellow dry bag, which should have been on the outside of the bag and will be next time I sail. I plan to carabiner it to an iako for easy retrieval and use.

Trevor

wtarzia
05-30-2012, 12:40 PM
Trefor, build a frickin' rudder :-) and stop worrying about messing up the stern. If you sail longer than a few hours, you will like your rudder. You could also build a quarter rudder (that would mess up your side, just a little).

I think you can expect 6 knot speeds regularly in moderate winds (change your GPS over to knots, most of us talk knots, and that would aid comparison when we read your reports). Short Dragon, much heavier than your boat, generally touches 6 knots all the time in 10 knot winds and in significant chop. You can expect frequent higher bursts up to 9-10 knots in gusts. My favorite story, told before here perhaps, is the time a Cape Dory (25 feet, tall sloop rig), shadowed me for a couple of hours and finally passed by when I tacked, and he shouted out, "Took me a long time to catch up!" And I've passed big sloops that were not, admittedly, being sailed obsessively (once, in a fine/obnoxious mood, I fell back, circled one, and pulled ahead again :-). Of course, beach cats circle *me*. Fun times ahead for all you folk getting used to your new outriggers. Not sure what your sail area is. At least 70 sf? -- Wade

trefor
05-30-2012, 02:58 PM
Trefor, build a frickin' rudder :-) and stop worrying about messing up the stern. If you sail longer than a few hours, you will like your rudder. You could also build a quarter rudder (that would mess up your side, just a little).

I think you can expect 6 knot speeds regularly in moderate winds (change your GPS over to knots, most of us talk knots, and that would aid comparison when we read your reports). Short Dragon, much heavier than your boat, generally touches 6 knots all the time in 10 knot winds and in significant chop. You can expect frequent higher bursts up to 9-10 knots in gusts. My favorite story, told before here perhaps, is the time a Cape Dory (25 feet, tall sloop rig), shadowed me for a couple of hours and finally passed by when I tacked, and he shouted out, "Took me a long time to catch up!" And I've passed big sloops that were not, admittedly, being sailed obsessively (once, in a fine/obnoxious mood, I fell back, circled one, and pulled ahead again :-). Of course, beach cats circle *me*. Fun times ahead for all you folk getting used to your new outriggers. Not sure what your sail area is. At least 70 sf? -- Wade


Ha! Thanks, Wade!

I will probably build an iako-mounted bracket and quarter rudder at some point. Once I get tired of holding things in place so much. The App I'm using on my iPhone is meant for running/walking/cycling, etc. and only has things in MPH. I need to pick up a native nautical App, but haven't yet. They cost a little more. I guess I could just convert MPH to knots in my head and guesstimate. It's what, 1.15 miles to a knot? I'll keep that in mind for future posts.

My sail is only the 54sqft planned for the 16' Wa'apa in the book. If I eventually go with a Sunfish lateen, that should give the ability to drop everything and add 21 more square feet to the sail area. I'm waiting till I'm fully comfortable with it before experimenting any further with plan deviations.

Trevor

flsail
05-30-2012, 06:32 PM
Dan,

I'm in Tampa, we've spoken a few times on the various forums so I know you get down this way every now and then :) I have followed your Ulua and Tamanu adventures for a while.

Drop me a line if you have time. It would be fun to talk to someone who doesn't look at me crazy when I talk about proa's or outriggers. Private Message me and I will give you my contact info.

Although my wife is coming around. We almost bought a 19' Gcat with the front tramp and have since joined the Clearwater Community Sailing Center. She is taking he first sailing lessons this weekend, and I have her seriously talking with me about a Tamanu cat or Wharram Tiki 21 build down the road. So far she is a big fan of the Hobie Getaways at the sailing center and wanted to get lessons so she could take out her friends by herself.

Jon

PeteCress
05-30-2012, 08:11 PM
I also have a 3.5 gallon bucket that I sit on while paddling or sailing the boat...
Double duty... I like it.

Dan St Gean
05-30-2012, 09:19 PM
I'll be down next week. I'm staying in Sanibel for a couple weeks but is planning on driving back your way. I'm hoping to test drive Frank Smoot's little folder as well. Maybe I should drive back via small craft WBF guys...hitch a ride in Slider in the panhandle maybe?

Dan

DavePont
05-31-2012, 06:24 PM
Double duty

I have a plastic paint pail (10 litre) with a lid to keep stuff dry, tethered to the boat, and a second one without lid, slid over the bottom of the first one, for serious baling. The only trick is to make sure the buckets don't get wedged together, but it saves space.

PeteCress
06-03-2012, 05:40 PM
Purely as a matter of idle curiosity, I'm wondering how little draft a T2 operater has managed to sail in.

Had Ulua out yesterday doing sustained runs in 8" of water and I suspect it could have handled 6". Dunno about 4, but time will tell.

I'm guessing that T2 needs more like double that.... or does it.

Depends in part on crew weight, of course....

Can anybody relate some actual experience?

How about Waapa?

Dan St Gean
06-04-2012, 09:18 AM
From Gary's site:
T2 specs--
Length overall 17’ 9” (5400mm)
Hull width 16” (406mm)
Overall width 9’ (2740mm)
Draft 12” (305mm)
@ 350 Lb (160 Kg)Displacement
Hull weight 65 Lb (29.5 Kg)
Weight fully rigged 135 Lb (61 Kg)
Ulua specs--


Length overall 17’ 9” (5400mm)
Hull width 18 ” (470mm)
Overall width 6' 7" (2000mm)
Draft 8” (200mm) @ 400 Lb
(182 Kg) Displacement
Hull weight 64 Lb (29 Kg)
Weight fully rigged 122 Lb (55 Kg)
Tamanu specs--
draft NA, but my experience says even heavily loaded is substantially less than the Ulua. The middle section is nearly 16" broad, so flip the triangles of the bow and stern around to make a neat little box 16'x6". Water weighs about 64 lbs a square foot, Ignoring the rocker and the fine details that mases something like 700 lbs of displacement at 6" waterline. Even though my math stinks, you can see how much it can hold.
Wa'apa
draft NA

JimD
06-04-2012, 11:22 AM
I subscribe to the Hawaiian sailing canoe association on facebook and get all the race season updates. some great pics

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/600783_364879856913028_1098608859_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/560570_338003522933995_120822944652055_928381_3596 02086_n.jpg

PeteCress
06-05-2012, 12:44 PM
I subscribe to the Hawaiian sailing canoe association on facebook and get all the race season updates. some great pics

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/600783_364879856913028_1098608859_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/560570_338003522933995_120822944652055_928381_3596 02086_n.jpg

I call that Canoe Porn.

PeteCress
06-09-2012, 10:43 PM
This is just an FYI for those wondering about carrying capacity. Perhaps the other end of the spectrum from JimD's canoe porn.

Had Ulua out today with 3 up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-fwnw_cSd8 The herky-jerky motion is not your PC or your connection. It's the pitiful bandwidth between the IP cam, which is on 45 kB/s DSL and the camera server up the street. Detail isn't too bad viewed at 720 and full screen though...

This one is stretched by 3 feet (21' instead of 18).

That's 565 lbs of meat. Me at 215, one crew at 140, another at 210.

Not too bad. Ulua wasn't what I'd call *happy*, sort of like my 105 liter wave board with 7.5 meters of sail on it... but it worked. I think one could even claim a capacity of 600 pounds - at least on the bay....

Wind gusting into the low twenties (mph)...

On proa tack, I didn't sheet in too hard out of respect for the stubby. Used the steering paddle 100% of the time, since I had the luxury of sitting in the main hull while the crew did the moving-ballast work.

In fact, after nailing an innocent crew member with the butt of the steering oar a few weeks ago, I'm coming to prefer the steering paddle when not sailing solo.

Took it out again with 210# of crew and we were hitting the occasional 8 knots.

Took it out solo and I think I was on the verge of planing as we approached the beach: http://youtu.be/uNyoBwmgmj4

As an aside, I'm coming to appreciate the social aspect of this thing. Everybody that sails with me on it is jazzed - and it lasts from week-to-week.... it's not just try-it-once-and-lose-interest. They're actually waylaying me as I roll it down to the beach.... A totally-unexpected and very pleasant benefit.

Also, I'm coming around to thinking that the rigging thing is overblown. Today's time, from stepping out of my car to having the sail up and ready to launch, was 18:34, and I was not rushing it... just performing each step in order.

That includes flipping it off the trailer, loading it up with ama, iakos, rig and so-forth, wheeling it down to the beach, and rigging it to where the sail is up and it's ready to launch. Even includes stowing the rollers further up the beach...

I'm pretty sure I see windsurfers who take longer than that to rig.... and I suspect I can shave another minute or two by refining the procedure on the trailer end of the process.

PeteCress
06-09-2012, 11:05 PM
I use 1" strips cut from an old truck inner tube to lash ama to iakos.

But every time I do a lashing, I terminate it a little differently... kind of hunt around for a pass that offers the right angle and then tuck the bitter end under it... maybe once maybe twice... maybe three times depending.

When it's time to de-rig, sometimes they come undone easily, other times it's a fingernail-breaker.

There's got tb a standard way to do this.

But what is it?

Picture(s)?

granitefallscc
06-10-2012, 11:10 AM
I use 1" strips cut from an old truck inner tube to lash ama to iakos.

But every time I do a lashing, I terminate it a little differently... kind of hunt around for a pass that offers the right angle and then tuck the bitter end under it... maybe once maybe twice... maybe three times depending.

When it's time to de-rig, sometimes they come undone easily, other times it's a fingernail-breaker.

There's got tb a standard way to do this.

But what is it?

Picture(s)?

Hello! You have touched on a subject I know something about! I have used old innertube for decades for all kinds of lashing. Usually what I do is make sure the strip is long enough to get as many turns as I deem necessary to do the job and then enough for three or four more. After I have gotten the turns on that I want I make a peace sign with my fingers and stick it under the last two turns to make a slot for the tuck. Push the end between your fingers and pull them out with the end. After that you can reef it back into the tighter part if you feel the need for more security. You can pull a bight through instead of the end to make a quick release. Wrap some electrical tape over the tubing if it's in a critical area subject to a lot of chafe. If you need a lashing that is tight with no stretch put some turns of strapping tape over the tubing. I once made an ad-hoc kayak rack for my pickup to drive down from Alaska using this technique and some scrap lumber which ended up lasting almost 5 years! Tubing makes excellent clamps too! Two pieces of scrap 1x2 with a small block in between. Cheap and very effective.

granitefallscc
06-10-2012, 12:03 PM
Here are a couple of photos of the use of innertube for clamps. I no longer can post photos here. Something has changed since I last did that.
"http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/p3260008l.jpg/" "http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/171/p3200012.jpg/"

PeteCress
06-10-2012, 12:55 PM
I no longer can post photos here. Something has changed since I last did that.

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger.... I never did figure out how to post pix and reverted to Picassa/TinyURL early in the game.

JimD
06-10-2012, 01:51 PM
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg171/scaled.php?server=171&filename=p3200012.jpg&res=landing

Nothing's changed for me. :)

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-10-2012, 01:54 PM
I detest tinyurl - all manner of destructive attack stuff might lurk behind an apparently innocent "tinyurl" Link.

At least with a straight link you can must an educated guess as to the real destination.

Posting a pic is easy
if the link is http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg268/scaled.php?server=268&filename=p3260008l.jpg&res=landing
Then {img}http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg268/scaled.php?server=268&filename=p3260008l.jpg&res=landing{/img} and replace the { with [ does the job....

Thus:
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg268/scaled.php?server=268&filename=p3260008l.jpg&res=landing

PeteCress
06-10-2012, 02:06 PM
Posting a pic is easy
if the link is http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg268/scaled.php?server=268&filename=p3260008l.jpg&res=landing
Then {img}http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/268/p3260008l.jpg{/img} and replace the { with [ does the job....


I'm still doing something wrong.

http://picasaweb.google.com/108149798664924808733/Ulua#5730570122938005954

Links to the pic OK, but does not render the pic inline.

Could it be something around the forum app wanting to see an image file type?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
06-10-2012, 03:26 PM
Links which start https...... are likely to be problematic - the s in https stands for "Secure" and usually means that the user needs a user-id and password

That particular link is to a page with the picture on it - if you right-click the picture you get the option to "copy the image location" which gets the appropriate link address - ulually something ending in.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-41nXv94T4vI/T4cTKjovucI/AAAAAAAABuQ/_05Hrf1L6Mg/s640/PJC%2520at%2520Lakes.03.jpg

so
{img}https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-41nXv94T4vI/T4cTKjovucI/AAAAAAAABuQ/_05Hrf1L6Mg/s640/PJC%2520at%2520Lakes.03.jpg{/img}
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-41nXv94T4vI/T4cTKjovucI/AAAAAAAABuQ/_05Hrf1L6Mg/s640/PJC%2520at%2520Lakes.03.jpg
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-41nXv94T4vI/T4cTKjovucI/AAAAAAAABuQ/_05Hrf1L6Mg/s640/PJC%2520at%2520Lakes.03.jpg

Lovely looking boat by the way.

Dan St Gean
06-10-2012, 08:24 PM
Pete,

Anhinga is looking realy good in the new generation look with the as designed akas and the white lateen.

Dan

PeteCress
06-10-2012, 08:43 PM
Anhinga is looking realy good in the new generation look with the as designed akas and the white lateen.

Sail-wise, I'm not in love with the triangular look - although it *does* seem to work and I will probably stick with it. But I find Gary's spec tb significantly more aesthetic.

I think I've discarded bamboo as a boom material and settled on a couple sections of broken windsurfer mast jammed together. Exact jamming methodology pending advice from Those Who Know.

For bottom wear, somebody came up with a sort tape made of felted Kevlar - which I think is on my short list.

Here's Yours Truly trying his best to tear the bottom off in 15-20: http://youtu.be/uNyoBwmgmj4 (http://youtu.be/uNyoBwmgmj4)

DavePont
06-11-2012, 12:17 AM
I use 1" strips cut from an old truck inner tube to lash ama to iakos.

But every time I do a lashing, I terminate it a little differently... kind of hunt around for a pass that offers the right angle and then tuck the bitter end under it... maybe once maybe twice... maybe three times depending.

When it's time to de-rig, sometimes they come undone easily, other times it's a fingernail-breaker.

There's got tb a standard way to do this.

But what is it?

Picture(s)?

Hi Pete,

I've never tried this, but tucked it away in the pile of: that's cool, I should try it, thanks to Tim Anderson:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Outrigger-Lashing-Buttons/

If you try it let us know, I too manage to lash a bit different every time! This tells me I have yet to find a satisfactory way to tie off.
The exception is my Dierking / Wa'apa / Madagascar ama attachments where an upright board on the ama locates on a peg on the end of the beam. This is childs play to lash and tie off securely - I actually have to be careful not to overtighten.

Loved your video - I never would have believed an Ulua could plane - but you've shown you can get mighty close! No need to drag up the beach - just step out to dry land! You must practice this maneuver for when the wahines are sunning on the beach ;-)

cheers, Dave P

granitefallscc
06-11-2012, 09:30 AM
Thanks Stazzer!

Dan St Gean
06-11-2012, 11:10 AM
Sail-wise, I'm not in love with the triangular look - although it *does* seem to work and I will probably stick with it. But I find Gary's spec tb significantly more aesthetic.

I think I've discarded bamboo as a boom material and settled on a couple sections of broken windsurfer mast jammed together. Exact jamming methodology pending advice from Those Who Know.

For bottom wear, somebody came up with a sort tape made of felted Kevlar - which I think is on my short list.

Here's Yours Truly trying his best to tear the bottom off in 15-20: http://youtu.be/uNyoBwmgmj4 (http://youtu.be/uNyoBwmgmj4)

I think the aesthetics of Gary's drawings and designs are beautiful. You could, if you were happy with the sail area cut the luf and foot into a curve. You are now a seasoned pro at laminating stuff, so a couple little sticks would be nothing if you want to do that over the winter. It looks good though in the meantime. I'm trying to decide what to do with my tamanu hull, and I think I'm going to do a mix and match for next summer with the parts I have now. I have: a hull, a set of super beefy trimaran akas, two big 48"x11' tramps I think I'll cut down to 8' for all the reasons you are familiar with. I'll need to do a leeboard & a rudder setup as well as a pair of amas. To get some use out of it this summer, I'll probably use it as a cat--or not at all since I have a Wave up at the cabin and a couple of SUPs for river use.

Dan

Gary Dierking
06-11-2012, 04:46 PM
I never would have believed an Ulua could plane - but you've shown you can get mighty close!


I took my wife's cousin out for a sail on my Ulua once when we were hit by a tremendous gust coming down off a big hill. Fortunately we were on a broad reach. The canoe seemed to leap out of the water with huge sheets of water coming off both sides. No GPS on board that day but would love to know how fast we were going.

Dan St Gean
06-11-2012, 10:21 PM
Here's Yours Truly trying his best to tear the bottom off in 15-20: http://youtu.be/uNyoBwmgmj4 (http://youtu.be/uNyoBwmgmj4)

Now I know why you are looking into the kevlar felt rub strips!

Chris Ostlind
06-11-2012, 11:35 PM
Seems odd to me that the condition of planing can be assigned to a multihull when one very significant component of the overall design is virtually submerged in order to allow the vaka hull to appear to be lifted from the water totally due to hydrodynamic pressure on the bottom.

I say it can't happen for any multihull unless all the hulls of the craft are in a planing state and they got there exclusively due to hydrodynamic pressure coupled to boat speed.

If it were that easy, then just about any garden variety beach cat could be said to be planing by simply flying the windward hull until it was just kissing the surface. Now, who among us will be the first to make that claim? I've been sailing beach cats since the late 70's and I've never heard a single person claim that their cat was hooked-up and planing its butt off while the leeward hull was fully depressed and running in a semi-displacement status.

Show me the video of a sustained, planing multihull and I'll be happy to agree that it can happen. If your clip has one ama immersed (or even just getting wet with a weight transfer to that immersed hull) and the main hull of a tri skimming the wave tops, it doesn't count. Same is true for a cat, or outrigger. Let the search begin. To demonstrate the folly of the typical claims, go out and try this next time you have access to a beach cat... Get the crew over on the leeward hull, even in light air and crank on the main sheet until the windward hull lifts due to mechanical leverage to the skimming stage. Rush back to shore where all the rest of the cat fleet is hanging out and tell everyone you just had your boat planing and see what kinds of reactions you generate in the gathered group.

There might be planing multihulls out there now, or in the past. I can think of a couple off the top of my head, but it isn't the type of boat design that is being discussed on these pages.

PeteCress
06-13-2012, 05:35 PM
Show me the video of a sustained, planing multihull and I'll be happy to agree that it can happen.
There might be planing multihulls out there now, or in the past. I can think of a couple off the top of my head, but it isn't the type of boat design that is being discussed on these pages.

Long, long ago and far, far away I built something called a "Malibu Outrigger". IIRC, it was basically a 3-board canoe somewhat like Waapa or Tamanu, but with a daggerboard, a fully-enclosed hull, and a stern-mounted rudder.

I don't think it was *designed* to plane, but it carried a lot of sail area and I'd say I had it planing on occasion - as in a broad reach with trades gusting into the twenties.

Seems to me like anything with a flat bottom could do that in the right (or wrong, depending on one's outlook....) conditions, but I can't imagine an outrigger canoe that's actually designed to plane.

I claim no boat design knowledge, but just as a matter of practicality I'd think the prospect of snagging the ama on a swell or chop would mitigate against such a design.

As far as a planing catamaran goes, try this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbOr46fV4n0. As per your observation: not the kind of craft being discussed here.

Chris Ostlind
06-13-2012, 06:47 PM
The Itzacat is one of the boats I had in mind. Another is the Hydroplaneur of Yves Parlier. You can prowl through the various listings on Google at this link: https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&q=hydroplaneur&oq=hydroplaneur&aq=f&aqi=g-s4&aql=&gs_l=hp.3..0i10l4.0.0.1.1948.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0. ..0.0.3EDYlmSpMkM&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=1c7ed75405856571&biw=1059&bih=539

There are many multihulls with sufficient power to weight ratios and properly configured bottom sections that could get the vaka hull up on plane. Trouble is, though... they do it because they have transferred their weight over to the submerged and/or semi-submerged ama, which is not on plane, or even close. There are lots of multihull sailors, especially those with trimarans, who view this as planing and they'll tell you all about it. I do not view it as planing because the weight of the boat is not being carried on the planing hull. Call me old fashioned, or whatever, but as soon as that weight starts to transfer, the job of getting enough hydrodynamic pressure on the bottom to lift the boat gets a whole lot easier and that moves decidedly away from the typically agreed upon definition for planing. Now, if a trimaran could be sailed totally flat with the amas free of the water AND it could produce enough forward drive to allow the hydrodynamic pressure of the water-to-hull interface to actually lift the main hull free of the semi-displacement condition, I would agree that the boat is planing. Trouble is, that kind of scenario just does not exist for the typical multihull. A degree of heel is present for all of them so that the buoyant volume of the leeward ama can provide heeling resistance and keep the boat upright. You get some lift under the vaka hull and you give it right back through the immersed ama. Since the whole thing is one structure, I do not call that planing.

A possibility for this scenario exists... Get enough crew on board to hike out on the windward trampoline surface so that the boat, when it is generating enough drive, is sailing as flat as possible, keeping both amas out of the water. If the vaka hull climbs its own bow wave and exceeds semi displacement speeds, it would be planing. It's going to take a good bit of weight as far to windward as possible to do this. Another way is to design and build planing amas that can be driven at high speeds so that they, too, can climb their own bow waves while the vaka hull is doing the same thing. That'll get you to the promised land of planing, as well. One very big issue to contend with, however, is that planing amas are notoriously lousy friends at anything below planing speeds. To be more succinct, they absolutely suck.

I'm open to having my mind changed if someone can provide an explanation that takes into account all the component elements of the multihull.

By the way, Pete, I believe that your Malibu Outrigger could get the main hull up on plane. It had lots of power, a lightweight structure and enough, properly shaped, planing surface to get the job done.

Shan Skailyn
06-14-2012, 08:13 PM
I have purchased some pool noodles to mount on Shan Skailyn's non-ama side gunwale to add a little extra flotation in an attempt to aid water bailing as I recover from a capsize. Ie. extra flotation on the side dumps more water just before boat is righted. Problem I have is figuring out how to attach to the boat without having to drill a bunch of holes for lashing. Any good ideas out there? I'd like to buy any little pieces of hardware while I'm here in the states to be able to do this.

Tom the rower
06-14-2012, 08:19 PM
It was suggested to me as I build a trimaran out of my double pointy ended high sided flat bottom, looks like a canoe from the side, sliding seat rowboat with external outriggers, that I use tough inflatable beach rowers just outside the boat. They are bigger in diameter than pool noodles and should be easier to attach. you might want to think bigger. Nothing but respect for this thread as it is by far my favorite.

Shan Skailyn
06-15-2012, 01:35 AM
I googled 'inflatable beach rowers'. Not totally sure what you're talking about. Could you be talking about an inflatable mattress kind of thing by any chance?

Tom the rower
06-15-2012, 07:41 AM
I am very sorry for not checking my spelling more carefully. Beach rollers, such as these
http://www.praktek.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=8.
9 inch by 60 inches reinforced fabric $60


Tom

Gary Dierking
06-15-2012, 04:30 PM
I have purchased some pool noodles to mount on Shan Skailyn's non-ama side gunwale to add a little extra flotation in an attempt to aid water bailing as I recover from a capsize. Ie. extra flotation on the side dumps more water just before boat is righted. Problem I have is figuring out how to attach to the boat without having to drill a bunch of holes for lashing. Any good ideas out there? I'd like to buy any little pieces of hardware while I'm here in the states to be able to do this.

I fed a length of bamboo down the center hole in the pool noodle and just lashed it under the crossbeams. That seemed stiff enough without any other attachments.

PeteCress
06-15-2012, 09:10 PM
By the way, Pete, I believe that your Malibu Outrigger could get the main hull up on plane. It had lots of power, a lightweight structure and enough, properly shaped, planing surface to get the job done.

It seems possible that fingernail dents in the aft iako may support your belief... Or were they from the time we were trying to come in through the Outrigger Canoe Club channel when the swell was breaking 6-8 feet on the coral heads either side... and the wind died halfway in as a closeout set was looming..... -) "Paddle, Denny, PADDLE!!!!! For the love of God, PADDLE!!...." (at which moment, my loyal crew yelled "Are you f...ing crazy????" and jumped off)... -)

Shan Skailyn
06-16-2012, 01:28 AM
I fed a length of bamboo down the center hole in the pool noodle and just lashed it under the crossbeams. That seemed stiff enough without any other attachments.

Ahaaa... it's always the simple things. Why didn't I think of that?!!! I've been accused before (as has my father) of loving to solve problems so much that I invent them out of nothing so that there is indeed a problem to mull over. Could this be one of those cases?

spidennis
06-16-2012, 06:17 PM
subscribed!

I've been working on my adventure racing proa, making a model to see how things fit together. Hulls fold together for a 3' beam from 10', freestanding masts pivots, rotating rudder, ........ youtube video coming soon!

edit: I just noticed this is my first post by I joined in 2008?

and I'm thinking this most likely won't be a wooden boat, but this is a proa so ......

spidennis
06-16-2012, 11:41 PM
subscribed!

I've been working on my adventure racing proa, making a model to see how things fit together. Hulls fold together for a 3' beam from 10', freestanding masts pivots, rotating rudder, ........ youtube video coming soon!

edit: I just noticed this is my first post by I joined in 2008?

and I'm thinking this most likely won't be a wooden boat, but this is a proa so ......

http://youtu.be/LHwp0ZBbn84
here's the video of the latest features

spidennis
06-18-2012, 06:13 PM
http://youtu.be/LHwp0ZBbn84
here's the video of the latest features

http://youtu.be/6LvxzIp9XHIhttp://youtu.be/6LvxzIp9XHI


http://youtu.be/6LvxzIp9XHI

My rotating drum cassette rudders can now pivot!
Now for steering this contraption ......
I'm thinking about a pair of"pull-pull" cables in a jackets
to aid when I fold the boat up and when the rudder kicks up.
The distance changes to the controls so it need to take up the slack somehow.

there are other videos on my channel showing the rest of the boat.

tink
06-22-2012, 05:27 AM
Hello Proa people
I have created a blog detailing my proa developments at http://proasail.blogspot.co.uk/ . Briefly I am converting my proa to be a lug rigged schooner with a single leeboard, the leeboard can be moved fore and aft. Steering is achieved by sail trim and position of the dagger board. I have calculated the side load on the leeboard to be 16kg. Do away of you kind people have any figures of the side load on leeboards or daggerboards?

Thanks

Tink

Dan St Gean
06-22-2012, 02:03 PM
I'll be down next week. I'm staying in Sanibel for a couple weeks but is planning on driving back your way. I'm hoping to test drive Frank Smoot's little folder as well. Maybe I should drive back via small craft WBF guys...hitch a ride in Slider in the panhandle maybe?

Dan

Well,

I didn't get to sail as some serious rain spoiled my day sailing plans with Frank, but I gotta say that fella has the sickness BAD. Right now he has three fully rigged 16' trimarans in his garage and barn. I think he's on to something with his approach. I'm not sure I'll emulate it exactly, but he is curently building with 3mm, pl premium for sticking joints together, and glassing the outsides. Super light and tough enough for thise who don't abuse their boats. Look up the youtube video of him wailing on his huss with a 2 lb sledge. As for his folding setup, slick! It must be to have gotten the attention of Gary Dierking, Richard Woods, and Jim Brown.

Anyhow, bummed the weather didn't cooperate, but reinvigorated to talk to a fellow multihull boatbuilder. It's a pretty small world when you consider how small the sailing world is, then the tiny slice of multihull sailors, then the tiny slice of boatbuilders who are into that tiny segment of a tiny market. It would be easier to be into something like fishing or golf in that respect as there are many millions of them.

Dan

Chris Ostlind
06-22-2012, 02:58 PM
The non-glassed interior fillets of urethane construction adhesive may just work nicely for really small trimarans, 16' and less, with reduced loads and intended for less strenuous conditions, but I have serious reservations about that build methodology for boats that are going to run a larger, more powerful rig, such as the use of a second hand Hobie 16 rig. I'm waiting to see how the vaka hull is bulkheaded to prevent torsional twist, should the boat be fitted with a hull stepped mast. A deck stepped rig may be a better solution for some structures, but that creates a need for a stronger, ama, aka, vaka hull joining setup.

A smallish, simple tri may be a reasonable boat for this kind of build system that uses less fussy materials like epoxy/thickeners and can be applied from the premixed tube directly to the joint. About 7 years ago, I built a collection of pirogue style boats and a few jonboats with this method. The difference was that I embedded heavy duty fiberglass mesh, such as one sees in the roofing trades, in the urethane. When cured, it yielded a seriously strong join. Was it easier and more convenient than mixing-up a batch of epoxy , stirring in a dose of cabosil and then laying in a bias cut strip of glass with a peel ply skin to save time when making the fillet smooth? The answer is yes and no, depending on the location and size of the fillet needed.

Still, it's worth revisiting coupled with a good round of testing, so let's see what happens.

Dan St Gean
06-22-2012, 05:27 PM
I'll be building more robustly personally, but considering the B24 uses 4mm floats, it's not too extreme. Chris, check out this month's Surfers' journal--a good article on Palos Verdes and some Lunada Bay history too.

Dan

Chris Ostlind
06-22-2012, 06:18 PM
Thanks for the tip, Dan.

If properly designed for structural loading, there's no reason on the surface for thinking that the urethane fillets won't do the job as intended. It's more about the business of eliminating the fiber from the join, that concerns me. The pirogues and jon boats I did with urethane adhesive have had no problems, but they do not have similar, leveraged loading issues that one would see from a powered-up multihull. More, they simply roll with heavy loads and the forces are absorbed in a much different fashion.

Away from boats for a second... I'm on my way over to Redondo this afternoon for a classic car show. I'll be sticking my '65 Chevy Pickup in the mix. I always look forward to talking with the old truck crowd so I can get references and tips for how to change over the running gear to modern while keeping the appearance as stock 1965. I'm just about to install a late model, injected Chevy V8 with computer and 6 speed transmission in the old girl, along with a complete rear axle sporting disc brakes. Front discs will follow and it will be like a new truck underneath from front to rear.

DavePont
06-22-2012, 11:58 PM
Well, I didn't get to sail as some serious rain spoiled my day sailing plans with Frank, but I gotta say that fella has the sickness BAD. Right now he has three fully rigged 16' trimarans in his garage and barn. I think he's on to something with his approach. I'm not sure I'll emulate it exactly, but he is currently building with 3mm, pl premium for sticking joints together, and glassing the outsides. Super light and tough enough for thise who don't abuse their boats. Look up the youtube video of him wailing on his huss with a 2 lb sledge. As for his folding setup, slick! It must be to have gotten the attention of Gary Dierking, Richard Woods, and Jim Brown.
Dan

Hi Dan, great to hear about your visit with Frank. His build methods are interesting. Re doubts about PL Premium fillets with no reinforcement: maybe a big factor is his quick-cycle turnaround for new boats - he is such an innovator they just don't get used long enough to succumb to stress fatigue. I found his wife's site one day: a potted history of their non-stop design-build-test-replace program, well worth a look:

http://laura-smoot.com/

a few words about each boat, typically ending with "... it went to the dump."

With that in mind his boats are probably not under-built at all! I really like Chris's tip about using fibreglass mesh from the house building world, probably one aisle over from where you get your PL Premium at 'Home Depot'.

cheers, Dave

Dan St Gean
06-23-2012, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the tip, Dan.

If properly designed for structural loading, there's no reason on the surface for thinking that the urethane fillets won't do the job as intended. It's more about the business of eliminating the fiber from the join, that concerns me. The pirogues and jon boats I did with urethane adhesive have had no problems, but they do not have similar, leveraged loading issues that one would see from a powered-up multihull. More, they simply roll with heavy loads and the forces are absorbed in a much different fashion.

Away from boats for a second... I'm on my way over to Redondo this afternoon for a classic car show. I'll be sticking my '65 Chevy Pickup in the mix. I always look forward to talking with the old truck crowd so I can get references and tips for how to change over the running gear to modern while keeping the appearance as stock 1965. I'm just about to install a late model, injected Chevy V8 with computer and 6 speed transmission in the old girl, along with a complete rear axle sporting disc brakes. Front discs will follow and it will be like a new truck underneath from front to rear.


Chris,

Love it! I'm a big fan of old cars as my dad's daily driver for about 10 years was a 59 Impala. It's sat for about two years now while his current ride, the 96 impala with the 350 got more attention. Anyhow, you'll love the modern running gear.

As for another interesting and contrarian build method, check out the wizbang II build.

Dan

wtarzia
06-23-2012, 11:29 AM
... I'll be sticking my '65 Chevy Pickup in the mix. I always look forward to talking with the old truck crowd so I can get references and tips for how to change over the running gear to modern while keeping the appearance as stock 1965. ...

--- Oh, sudden memory of my first vehicle, 1966 Chevy pickup, 6 cylinder, three-on-the-column. My friends and I explored New England coastal communities dreaming our varied seafaring and Lovecraftian fiction fantasies, cruising for girl-sightings, and of course going north skiing, on snowy NH roads with bald tires (this is like being driven broadside to breaking wave with your boards pulled up: figure it out).

On a proa note: I am recently back from Texas where I got a chance to finish the Texas 200 on John Wright's sharpie (great cruise!). The week previous Kevin O'Neill, an internet proa friend, became a physical reality friend as he acclimated me to Texas heat before the Tx200 by a week of hanging out with him and his wife and a couple of days of sailing on his 20 foot shunting proa at Lake Sommerville (an ~10 mile long lake, great sailing). I recommend his fine design to anyone -- a schooner rig made from two dinghy sails and two roller furling jibs. The flawlessly operating roller-furling shunting with *home-made* roller furling and the shunting of two sails worked perfectly. ~30 second shunts, This is done by setting up the control board for the various control lines (two jibs, two rudders, leeboard with two downhauls, two sets of sheets for each sail for each shunt) in an ergonomically sensible way. His 600 pound displacement foam ama is light, low-drag, and tolerates crew sitting position anywhere. The dual kick-up rudders on pole-tillers (extendable painting handles!) rotated through180 degrees and also worked flawlessly. I must say I had to accustom myself to the psychology of shunting again, it has been so long. This boat moved in dragon-fly farts, and we also had many 7-8 knots runs in 10 knot wind. A few youtubes are posted on my youtube account 'wadetarzia'.

At the Texas 200 there were a few multihulls but no single-outriggers. The usual Hobie Tandem tri, and two home-built trimarans whose center hulls started as skiff hulls. I still try to be kindly when viewing such designs, though it is hard; I will at least say the crews had fun, and that is the point. One of the tris started as a Chesapeake Light Craft 20 foot sailing sharpie (cat ketch rig I think), and the owner made a graceful conversion to the trimaran with shapely amas and good construction and finishing values. The other boat, I am not sure how it started. It seemed a little shorter and squatter, had a cabin, flat bottomed boxy amas, and a lateen sail with jib.

Kevin also took me to see the Skip Johnson designed/built proa formerly named P52, which he has in storage awaiting some mods. I had seen only a couple of photos, but once seen in person, I was all over it. Very cool! I am sold on the cabin and cockpit arrangement (very conmfortable crusing, it would seem, once the rig is arranged), the telescoping hollow wooden akas, and the general hull design. It needs a little maintenance work and a different sail, but I'm looking forward to seeing this proa wet again.

There is some talk about group-project-building a 30 or 40 foot shunting proa for the Texas 200 event, or perhaps for annual cruises outside the Texas 200. I will mention no names and further plans yet, because much depends upon a muchness (much of thata a cheap storage site). No doubt you will hear of it if it comes to fruition. -- Wade

Chris Ostlind
06-23-2012, 01:20 PM
Nicely turned, Wade and a treat to read.

Chris

JimD
06-30-2012, 09:21 AM
kiko seemed to paddle solo in part I. Have you emailed him? He's a wealth of information. He runs charter trips out of the Big Island usually in his double canoe.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=T-0YFYpQcQ8
DanCan't get too much Hawaii.

PeteCress
06-30-2012, 09:43 AM
kiko seemed to paddle solo in part I. Have you emailed him? He's a wealth of information.

I emailed him a bunch of weeks ago asking how he got those things to go to windward - figuring that I'd get some advanced techniques from The Master.

From his reply, I deduced (correctly or otherwise...) that they just don't sail upwind.... period... - and their trips are all downwinders in light air.

JimD
06-30-2012, 09:50 AM
I'm hoping the deep vee of the ama will provide enough lateral resistance. We should find out as early as next week. Just a few finishing touches and its ready for water:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d808b3127ccef02fec4a46ee00000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d811b3127ccef0293261d33500000040O10CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D1/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

Chris Ostlind
06-30-2012, 02:37 PM
Nice work, Jim. I'm looking forward to your results.

JimD
06-30-2012, 03:09 PM
Nice work, Jim. I'm looking forward to your results.Thank you, Chris. For a while there I thought I was being shunned :ycool:. My only regret is the decision to flat deck the kayak at the chine rather than rebuild a deeper hull. But it may not matter. The cockpit combing should keep most water out and unless the foredeck ends up being absolutely swamped it'll be fine. Steering will be by a canoe paddle with an oarlock mounted on the aft aka. Initially it will be powered by a jib and aft mounted mast, like this:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d806b3127ccef02277ad31ba00000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Old Dryfoot
06-30-2012, 04:33 PM
Looking forward to reading about how she performs, and don't forget the action shots. :)

JimD
07-01-2012, 11:38 AM
Looking forward to reading about how she performs, and don't forget the action shots. :)
Me too. I'll try to get some pics. The south island is supposed to get a few days of sun and warm temps at the end of the week so I'm aiming for maple bay on thursday or friday. going to get all the lashings sorted out in the back yard today:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d920b3127ccef0d61621bf5700000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d920b3127ccef0d68f61ffc300000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

All lashed up and as ready as its going to get. The only thing missing is a proper seat and I won't make that until I find out how I end up sitting in it:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d920b3127ccef0d7b142dfb300000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d920b3127ccef0d634013e5600000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

I've decided to name it Zeno's Turtle. Unless I change my mind.

PeteCress
07-01-2012, 09:37 PM
On my instance of Ulua, water is hitting the aft iako/ama connection on anything but the most modest trimaran tack.

Photo pending a waterproof bag and being able to sail.

Is this strictly a weight distribution thing? Or could there be another cause?

Here's the canoe with just me in it - and it looks to me like it's stern-heavy: http://tinyurl.com/7mnndx6

Remedies besides moving weight foward?

sabalminor
07-01-2012, 09:48 PM
Can anyone offer any information on manufacturer or model?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/Outrigger1.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/Outrigger3.jpg

Close-up of sail insignia & sail maker's label;

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/Barefoot12.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/SailsByWatts.jpg

We can find no HIN nor Manufacturer's plate.
*AJ*

PeteCress
07-02-2012, 09:32 AM
Trefor, build a frickin' rudder :-)

It looks like even the "pros" have their hands full using a steering oar or steering paddle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tP2ToI9gNt8

(scroll forward to 2:06)

wtarzia
07-02-2012, 09:40 AM
At first I thought that was a a "Virus Proa" which some British company was building as a tacking outrigger, but then, the Virus had a pretty wide vaka, and company ad showed someone rowing it as a monohull. So, no, I guess not! -- Wade

wtarzia
07-02-2012, 09:43 AM
Me too. I'll try to get some pics. The south island is supposed to get a few days of sun and warm temps at the end of the week so I'm aiming for maple bay on thursday or friday. going to get all the lashings sorted out in the back yard today: ...I've decided to name it Zeno's Turtle. Unless I change my mind.

--- Interesting rig and boat, fairly unique in the annals of the tacking outrigger! Waiting for reports. -- Wade

JimD
07-02-2012, 10:08 AM
--- Interesting rig and boat, fairly unique in the annals of the tacking outrigger! Waiting for reports. -- WadeI just hope it isn't too wet a ride. This whole project turned out to be a lesson on how not to build a boat as I fear impatience and frustration got the better of judgement. And it occurs to me that if I really did need to change it the easiest way to give it more depth would be to build a new bottom working my way down from the chine, not building a new deck working up from the sheer. But I won't. I swear :o. Not this year, anyway. Maybe a pair of very small, very lightweight amas to try it as a tri. That would free up the big ama for the other conversion. But for now its done now so we'll see. However the other kayak hull conversion is 75% done and it has a good foot more freeboard and three times the volume so if this one is a disappointment I will get back to work quickly on the other.

PeteCress
07-02-2012, 10:29 AM
Can anyone offer any information on manufacturer or model?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/Outrigger1.jpg


The more I look at it the more it looks like a shrunken version
of my old Mailbu Outrigger. The rocker, the vee, the aka-ama
attachments... Dead ringer hull-wise.

Old Dryfoot
07-02-2012, 02:05 PM
Can anyone offer any information on manufacturer or model?

Close-up of sail insignia & sail maker's label;

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12%27%20Proa/Barefoot12.jpg

We can find no HIN nor Manufacturer's plate.
*AJ*

I was able to find a sail insignia of a bare foot but it was a mirror image of yours and belonged to the Hotfoot 27, a mono hull built right here in my backyard in Victoria. Is it possible that the sail is not original to the boat?

sabalminor
07-03-2012, 12:01 PM
I was able to find a sail insignia of a bare foot but it was a mirror image of yours and belonged to the Hotfoot 27, a mono hull built right here in my backyard in Victoria. Is it possible that the sail is not original to the boat?

Yes, I ran across that sail insignia too researching this boat. It is possible the sail is not original.

I am following a lead and awaiting a reply - I will post more when I have additional information.

Another interesting design detail is the molded half circle on each side of the bow. When viewed head on, the boat
looks like is has an eye!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/BowDesign2.jpg

Dan St Gean
07-04-2012, 01:04 AM
On my instance of Ulua, water is hitting the aft iako/ama connection on anything but the most modest trimaran tack.

Photo pending a waterproof bag and being able to sail.

Is this strictly a weight distribution thing? Or could there be another cause?

Here's the canoe with just me in it - and it looks to me like it's stern-heavy: http://tinyurl.com/7mnndx6

Remedies besides moving weight foward?

Way stern heavy. Remedies? Rudder with a hiking stick allowing you to sit forward or take out a beautiful young lady friend with you. Beats a sandbag up by the mast any day, and if you put her in the front seat, you get to look at her all day too!

Dan

Dan St Gean
07-04-2012, 01:08 AM
Yes, I ran across that sail insignia too researching this boat. It is possible the sail is not original.

I am following a lead and awaiting a reply - I will post more when I have additional information.

Another interesting design detail is the molded half circle on each side of the bow. When viewed head on, the boat
looks like is has an eye!

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/BowDesign2.jpg

I remember seeing something like this for sale in FL at one point a ouple year ago. Let me see if I can remember anything about it...

Dan

PeteCress
07-04-2012, 11:11 AM
Way stern heavy. Remedies? Rudder with a hiking stick allowing you to sit forward or take out a beautiful young lady friend with you. Beats a sandbag up by the mast any day, and if you put her in the front seat, you get to look at her all day too!

Seems like, given similar information, great minds reach similar solutions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk5m6jJpmBI&feature=my_favorites&list=FL_kvSiprr2nC9HgX5PxXJiw

JimD
07-04-2012, 04:22 PM
..so I took ZT for her maiden paddle this morning on maple bay and it was a resounding success. Just about everything I had hoped for. Will go for the first sail tomorrow or friday. just a few minor adjustments to do this afternoon. I may never look at our monohull again. The stability of lashing a little ama to a kayak is amazing. The whole boat only weighs about 100 pounds and transports in two 50 pound chucks requiring only two lashes to be tied at the beach. Quick, easy, no strain, no hassle. Really looking forward to sailing. summer is here at last. The ama I built by pure guess work is exactly what I had hoped for. With me in the kayak the proa sits perfectly level, and when I climb out to the ama and put all my weight on it I still have about a half inch of freeboard. Its deep vee also draws enough water that hopefully it will provide all the lateral resistance required for sailing. The steering paddle worked well, is ergonometrically very well placed, and being able to use it as a stern side thruster to turn on a dime is a nice feature. Pics under sail on friday if all goes well.

Shan Skailyn
07-04-2012, 06:51 PM
Just got Shan Skailyn's folding crossbeam hinges done yesterday. Since I haven't yet figured out how to post pictures I'll just refer you to the Shan Skailyn blog where I've posted them. Now we pack them up and get ready to take them back to Mibu, Papua New Guinea in just a couple weeks.

http://shan-skailyn.blogspot.com/2012/07/finished-crossbeam-hinge.html

Andrew Craig-Bennett
07-04-2012, 07:19 PM
Here is a picture of a proa in her natural habitat:



https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/246482_342748839134797_420205922_n.jpg



(I used to work for the company that owned that ship.... our toast was "Life's Hell in the East!...)

James Corduan
07-04-2012, 11:56 PM
Great pic.

Gary Dierking
07-05-2012, 04:48 PM
Here is a picture of a proa in her natural habitat:
(I used to work for the company that owned that ship.... our toast was "Life's Hell in the East!...)

French Polynesia....right??

JimD
07-06-2012, 06:43 PM
ZT's maiden sail:



Cathy searching for wind:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d927b3127ccef0d9720b15a400000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

My turn:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d927b3127ccef0d8664735ae00000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d927b3127ccef0d91ef6945f00000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

For a moment the sail almost filled:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d927b3127ccef0d893d6f4ed00000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Done for today. Will try again on Monday:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d927b3127ccef0d87a3735d000000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

JimD
07-07-2012, 10:42 PM
Thinking that the above jib won't be big enough even when there is some wind I'm switching to a bigger one. It meant using a 17 foot length of 2 inch aluminum tube for a mast. Being very bendy I added a backstay. The easiest way to do this was to turn the boat on its side:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d926b3127ccef0dbaad6cc0900000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

The new sail is about 18 sq ft bigger, and I've left plenty of head clearance (my head, the sail's foot) which should also provide better visability which was clear after the first sail was going to be a problem. Added a boom, too:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d928b3127ccef0c74d899b9300000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d928b3127ccef0c6f54dbb4700000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

PeteCress
07-09-2012, 12:02 PM
I've managed to ampute the glassed-in seat on my Ulua without doing any damage.... I hope...

Almost exactly 4 pounds.

Now I want to replace it with a sliding seat so I can move my weight forward when sailing solo.

Having the advantages of parallel gunwales and very long legs, I'm thinking of a seat that just sits atop the gunwales and slides on them.

On the surface it seems pretty obvious. Maybe even as simple as buying a ready-made canoe seat, triming the cross bars to size, and adding something to grab the gunwales from underneath.


Musts:



Slide fore-aft
.
Weigh less than 4 pounds
.
Not float free in capsize
.
Stay attached and in place with vaka upside-down, bouncing along on a trailer



Wants:



Minimal weight
.
Lock fore-aft in place easily and unlock easily or, at least, not slide *too* easily.



Anybody been here?

Gotchas?

wtarzia
07-09-2012, 12:45 PM
Pete, I never had your problems since my outrigger was meant to be a solo-boat, so I sit in the same place all the time except on the proa tack. Perhaps i do not do fine-tuning that way, but if anything I should be sitting further back (but alomost out of room there)because as I move to taller rigs, the bow is decidedly being pushed down. My seat is just screwed down 3/4 pine with a PFD-cushion to sit on. I was going to saw out the pine and replace with something lighter, but haven't yet. I can stand on the seat if I want, while holding on to the mizzen mast behind my back, to get a look at something, so I keep the heavy seat. Seems to me my personal mistakes in building a bullet-proof hull outweigh (pun intended) the smaller weight issues like this.

But if you build a light hull, you are nearly all the way there, and if a couple of accessories are a little heavy, (like 4 pounds :-) then I don't see much of an issue. You don't want to put your ass or foot through something.

For sliding, I wonder if some mast-track sections that take a T-slug (used to sell these at Jamestown Distributors) would be a light, strong, and elegant way to rig a sliding seat? --Wade

PeteCress
07-09-2012, 03:57 PM
But if you build a light hull, you are nearly all the way there, and if a couple of accessories are a little heavy, (like 4 pounds :-) then I don't see much of an issue. You don't want to put your ass or foot through something.

If you could see my bike (34+ pounds as ridden...) you'd know I'm not a weight weenie.

The goal here is mainly the functionality of movement and not losing the seat under adverse conditions.

But the main hull is already 113# (spec is closer to 85) and I don't want to add any more.

Maybe I'm dreaming, but it seems like 4 pounds max is generous for a seat, considering the weight of the average el-cheapo alu beach chair.



FWIW, here's part of what makes me think I'm running stern-heavy: http://tinyurl.com/6v4xbwd

The rest is in finding I can point quite a few degrees higher with my weight forward plus the aft ama/iako connection catching water on trimaran tack.

Dan St Gean
07-09-2012, 04:13 PM
Pete,

Since youVe taken the step of taking out the seats, why not go while hog with your planned mods and go with an 8' span between the iakos? Find where you want to sit, and move the iakos (and ama) to where it will work best for solo usage. My intenet all along was to sit on a tramp/pola 18" to windward or more and steer with a rudder. Steering with a canoe paddle solo is a whole different ball of wax. It's a tough situation as all the HSCA guys have a steersman way aft, but they have 3-6 paddlers. Solo wants you just aft af the middle for best trim. The pic on Wikiproa shows me sitting forward of the aft seat on the gunwale on a throwable cushion. That got my weight formard nearly to the front seat location. Did you take out both seats? That might make the canoe pretty wiggly unless you add a thwart. If it was the aft seat only, I'd say you're fine. You could hack out another couple pounds by removing the stupid 2x2 inside the canoe as well, but that's a fair bit of work. The Manu are also a bit big and heavy if you are really going whole hog on the weight reduction. If you realy want to go crazy with weight reduction, tear out the 2x2's, the mast step, both seats, and more decking and go with Gary's plan to a T. More work for sure, but the hull was glassed before any of those components were added, so you do have an indicator of when to stop. The hull could continue it's diet, and your back will thank you for every unnecessary pound you rip outa there. You could easily do a totally stock Ulua with the 3' stretch and save lots of weight.

As for the slidable seat that stays put to some degree, I'd buy a commercially made canoe sear, cane or webbing, and make an L shaped block of wood or aluminum angle that hooks under the gunwale. The inside would be prettier. The seat would be retained by the clips and slide along anywhere it's parallel.

Is the leeboard location still the same with the new rig or are you paddling upwind or dealing with the angles? I really like Gary's hiking seats he's made too that run from gunwale to pola. Tough to paddle steer from there though. Ed Van Belcom runs his single outrigger Raptor 16 with water balast on the ama since that boat doesn't permit hiking out and he doesn't realy like the foil ir came with.

Dan

PeteCress
07-09-2012, 04:52 PM
Did you take out both seats?

No. Gary says the front one is structural, so it stays glassed-in. Later on, I may drop it down to his spec location so the leverage on the gunwale by the leeboard works as intended. But that's for later.


As for the slidable seat that stays put to some degree, I'd buy a commercially made canoe sear, cane or webbing, and make an L shaped block of wood or aluminum angle that hooks under the gunwale. The inside would be prettier. The seat would be retained by the clips and slide along anywhere it's parallel.

That's the first thing that came to mind. I was just trolling for any fatal flaws... or better ideas...


Is the leeboard location still the same with the new rig

Same location. Of course the whole rig works "right" with leeboard down.... But I'm sailing it a lot with leeboard up mainly bc I'm not pointing - but also bc it's interesting to see how well I can point without it... weight placement, sail trim, and all that.....

The original leeboard was too massive for me, so I recruited the long rudder for leeboard duty and it seems to work pretty well so far. Put a little reinforcement around the bolt in the form of a 2" x 8" hunk of 3/4" oak in lieu of Gary's spec'd Alu... once I find a source of Alu, I'll probably use that bc my implementation of the oak is kind of ugly.

If I go to a rudder, I think it will be Gary's cassette implementation... but that's way down the pike.

JimD
07-09-2012, 09:14 PM
So I took the vaka only out for a paddle to see how serviceable it is as a kayak and the answer is not very serviceable. This is a narrow, responsive kayak hull and without a snug cockpit it really isn't much good as a kayak any more. Oh well, live and learn. The gears are already turning as to the best way to deepen the hull a foot or so. I'm thinking I will just add a simple dory bottom to it, not even remove the old bottom except in the cockpit for a foot well. So it will be double hulled so to speak. Very strong and safe, with not too much weight penalty. Probably no more than ten pounds. Any thoughts anyone? Constructive criticism as well as ridicule will be given equal consideration ;)

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d920b3127ccef0d68f61ffc300000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Dan St Gean
07-09-2012, 11:01 PM
No. Gary says the front one is structural, so it stays glassed-in. Later on, I may drop it down to his spec location so the leverage on the gunwale by the leeboard works as intended. But that's for later.



That's the first thing that came to mind. I was just trolling for any fatal flaws... or better ideas...



Same location. Of course the whole rig works "right" with leeboard down.... But I'm sailing it a lot with leeboard up mainly bc I'm not pointing - but also bc it's interesting to see how well I can point without it... weight placement, sail trim, and all that.....

The original leeboard was too massive for me, so I recruited the long rudder for leeboard duty and it seems to work pretty well so far. Put a little reinforcement around the bolt in the form of a 2" x 8" hunk of 3/4" oak in lieu of Gary's spec'd Alu... once I find a source of Alu, I'll probably use that bc my implementation of the oak is kind of ugly.

If I go to a rudder, I think it will be Gary's cassette implementation... but that's way down the pike.

Another weight savings idea that wouldn't mess with the structural nature of the front seat is to cut the middle out and staple in a webbing seat. If you go with a webbing aft seat it'll match & look good too.

Additionally, look up the leeboard stuff from the www.diy-tri.com (http://www.diy-tri.com) guy, Frank Smoot. His it much like the rudder foil you are using, but holds tight at any angle you set. He mentioned that he has set the tension on one of his tris a year ago and it still stays put without any fiddling anywhere he sets it. The secret? He bores a big hole to allow more bearing surface for friction to work it's magic. That's a simplification of the BSD leeboard with a cone shaped projection that gets tightened. Frank uses a double nut to keep it where he wants it. Slick, cheap, and right on the money.

I did a little calculation and came up with 4.72#/ft. of boat length of a regular Ulua hull, while the stretched and overbuilt hull is 5.38#/ft. Ripping out the excess stuff and making it a "stock" ulua at 4.72#/ft would make for a hull of 99#. Going for broke in the lightweight category would have to include new akas that are hollow. At some point, it's only a couple # though.

Dan

Dan St Gean
07-09-2012, 11:06 PM
So I took the vaka only out for a paddle to see how serviceable it is as a kayak and the answer is not very serviceable. This is a narrow, responsive kayak hull and without a snug cockpit it really isn't much good as a kayak any more. Oh well, live and learn. The gears are already turning as to the best way to deepen the hull a foot or so. I'm thinking I will just add a simple dory bottom to it, not even remove the old bottom except in the cockpit for a foot well. So it will be double hulled so to speak. Very strong and safe, with not too much weight penalty. Probably no more than ten pounds. Any thoughts anyone? Constructive criticism as well as ridicule will be given equal consideration ;)

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d920b3127ccef0d68f61ffc300000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

That's absurd, preposterous, and insane! So, why not? Have you thought about using thigh straps like some SOT's do for control on thin kayaks? Easier to try that a false bottom/double bottom thingie first.

Dan

JimD
07-09-2012, 11:44 PM
That's absurd, preposterous, and insane! So, why not? Have you thought about using thigh straps like some SOT's do for control on thin kayaks? Easier to try that a false bottom/double bottom thingie first.

Dan
Dan, even when it was a real kayak I had lost interest in paddling, hence the conversion to proa. I think I took it out today just to remind myself that its ok to complete the transformation of this boat into, um, I dunno, something else. Even thigh straps wouldn't make much difference for me. Some sort of kayak sponsons would be more like it:

http://www.sponsonguy.com/jack13.jpg

I don't know the guy in the photo. I picked it because he looks so happy standing on his kayak.
Or mini amas

http://www.sailboatstogo.com/images/hd_kayak.jpg

I'm thinking the double bottom thing will work quite well since I can just cut four or five 1/4 inch cross section slits through the existing vee bottom up to the chine, slide ply bulkheads into the slits. From there adding the bottom and side panels should be fairly straight forward. Won't do it until October, though. This is going to be a fun beach boat as is for the summer. But it clearly has its limitations with such a shallow, low volume greenland kayak hull.

PeteCress
07-10-2012, 09:07 AM
His it much like the rudder foil you are using, but holds tight at any angle you set. He mentioned that he has set the tension on one of his tris a year ago and it still stays put without any fiddling anywhere he sets it.

Adjustment-wise, mine is working pretty well now since I bit the bullet, bought an el-cheapo MAPP gas brazing torch form Home Depot, and brazed an SS bolt on to the head of the existing bolt - essentially duplicating Gary's design, except with an SS bolt instead of SS rod.

sabalminor
07-16-2012, 09:30 PM
Barefoot 12 Outrigger ~
I received B&W copies from Dick Medve in Hawaii, co-owner designer for Barefoot Enterprises who produced the 'High Performance Sailing Outrigger Barefoot 12'.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/B%26WBrochure1.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/B%26WBrochure2.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/B%26WFlyer.jpg
We are currently exchanging information, however, the story goes ... In 1960(s) the boat was produced to compete in price with the then new, Hobie 14 catamaran. In 1970(s), a small fleet was shipped to Walt Disney World Florida to be sailed off the beach for the opening celebration of the Polynesian Resort. Each boat had a very distinctive 'Tiki' mask affixed to the bow, carying the Outrigger theme and the hulls were available in 6 custom colors.

PeteCress
07-17-2012, 09:45 AM
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/26309604/12'%20Proa/B%26WFlyer.jpg


Pricey little thing...

Assuming 1970, I get about $6,000 in 2012 dollars per
http://www.minneapolisfed.org/

JimD
07-17-2012, 12:22 PM
Sabalminor, any idea how it fared in performance to the Hobie 14?

JimD
07-17-2012, 10:55 PM
Found a colourful second hand dinghy sail for $45 that I can use on the forward mast step of Zeno's Arrow so it looks like my experiment with aft masts is on hold for a while. Got it rigged today and hopefully will sail tomorrow:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d936b3127ccef0f63b57253c00000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d936b3127ccef0f70a1b45bc00000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

PeteCress
07-18-2012, 11:33 AM
At http://www.tacking-outrigger.com/kir8.html

It looks like the thanks go to Peter Evans.

Question:

In http://www.tacking-outrigger.com/kir8a.pdf towards the lower right of the page, it seems to say that the "Empty" displacement of the main hull plus outrigger is 220 kg (484 pounds) and the "Loaded" figure is 515 kg (1, 133 pounds).

Is "Displacement" the same as weight in this context? I'm guessing that it means that the referenced object, when dumped in water, pushes that weight of water out of the way to float itself.

Is this to say that, for the purposes of pulling the boat up-and-down the beach or on-off a trailer, the weight of hull + outrigger is almost 484 pounds and iakos, pola, sailing rig, rudder, rigging are extra?

Also, is that to say that the carrying capacity at the designed freeboard is 649 pounds? (1,133 - 484) minus whatever aforementione iakos/pola/rig weigh?

Grzegorz
07-19-2012, 05:43 AM
You may find it interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS0nQNUM4x8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS0nQNUM4x8)
|;)

wtarzia
07-19-2012, 10:23 AM
Finally took Short Dragon out for its first cruise of the season. I let a lot of things get ahead of me (including some fun things such as the Texas 200 and hanging out with proa-sailor Kevin O'Neill) thus the late start.

The 'big' modification for this season was not so big -- add provisions to support a 17 foot mast carrying a new battened mainsail, 75 square feet, almost square-top (14 foot luff, 6.5 foot bottom) -- includng a third outrigger and a short bowsprit. I also am again trying a push-pull tiller. Last year this capsized me when I pushed instead of pulled, but I added a longer yoke (about 20 inches) which adds leverage and also slows down the steering rate so that I have a split second longer to change my mind, which does help. I had to add an aka on the non-ama side to carry that side's shroud. I will add another aft soon to carry the inflatable safety ama (should ride 12-14 inches over flat water). For shrouds I used 1/8 inch Vectran, attahing them to the akas horn cleats (this synthetic does cleat pretty well unlike some others). I use a 20 squarefot mizzen sail to complete the rig, which maintains my old total sail area but redistributes it more to the mailsail, and little higher on tthat main sail (tip of former standing lug main was 12 feet over bottom of boat, new sail is 17 feet over the bottom). Finally, add the new 5 loot long leeboard (adds one foot over old one, for total of three feet clear under the boat). The idea was to get to windward better. Photo here: http://www.facebook.com/wade.tarzia?ref=tn_tnmn#!/photo.php?fbid=10151262016952646&set=a.467043567645.251781.814012645&type=1&theater

I took the boat to Bantam Lake (almost 3 miles long) to test it all out, conditions 7-9 mph, gusts to 16 mph. Set up time was 30 minutes (wheels stopped in marina to wheels stopped after launching the boat), which surprized me a little -- I thought it would take longer given the addition of stay and shrouds. I thought at first the boat pointed higher than ever, but perhaps this was the first flush of excitement with a new rig.

Later on I was not so sure -- the GPS track did not seem much higher than my old standing lug cat-ketch. But perhaps I was sailing lower for more speed. I was going to windward at about 5 knots which was faster than usual, which tells me I need to pinch a little higher to make a comparision with the old rig. So I am disappointed to say that increased windward performance did not leap out at me and slap me in the face with a "wow!" (especially with all the work done on that bigger board). I was expecting a 7-10 degree kind of 'wow'.

The longer board does stress the aircraft aluminum bearing-rails more, but the bending does not alarm me yet (maybe an inch to inch and a half over their 40 inch length).

As ever, the trimaran tack was best, the proa tack was not too bad, but the taller rig definitely wants to kncok the boat down if I am not attentive (= getting out on the side seat fast). The shroud-outrigger (made from my curved EC trimaran-inflatable aka, cut down) caught water once = could trip boat? I intended for the big (400 pound displacement) safety ama for that side, and I had better get on that immediately, certainly for coastal sailing. Then, though the boat will still essentially be made to sail as a single-outrigger on the old wooden deep-V ama, I guess that safety ama will catch water often enough to make it a trimaran in that 2 foot chop on the coast and during gusts.

One problem (maybe 2) with the new sail I need to iron out is the sheeting angle. The used sail arrived as a boomless rig (batten at bottom). The former owner, who did not use it much, mentioned thinking about adding a boom. (I have an old wooden one that will fit, but the bad sheeting angle will remain since the boom end would not extend to the aft aka where the traveler rope can be set up.). For this first test cruise, it is still boomless; I mickey-moused the "traveler" at an angle that bisected the clew angle, but I did this foolishly by sheeting it in tight to centerline. In reality of course the sail goes to lee, and the angle will be different (in fact will change in the different sailing courses. The foot of the sail is too short to reach the traveler rope used on the old rig -- which, ending at the non-ama aka end, was always too narrow on the proa tack, but extending along the ama, gave good sheeting angle on the trimaran tack. The current sheet had only about 15 inches of travel along the bottom of the cockpit seat.

Thus, all told I believe the top of the sail was twisting off too much. I am not skilled at judging twist angle and certainly not with this new battened square-top sail, so I need to work this out.

Also, I had the feeling that sail shape is not good at the top of the sail. There are two battens up there: the diagonal that acts like a leech batten to hold the leech (roach) out, and just under that, the first in the series of horizontal battens. I am thinking that may be a lot of stiff stuff up there interfering with the potential shape of the head of the sail. I will Todd Bradshaw would drop in on this thread and comment :-) .

Yes, I need to take some still photos (it was good sailing and my hands were pretty full), though I managed a video which I will post soon. I need to pay more attention to the curve of the battens as indicators of sail shape, but if memory serves, the head seemed a little flat. This is a pretty new sail (former owner did not use much then sold his canoe I believe) so perhaps it nbeeds some breaking in? Do sails need that?

I leave for Ireland for stint of bike-camping and folklore/archaeology research for three week, so alas, may not get back to this for a while. Hope your collective sailing season is going well. Apologies to a couple of people who sent private mail I have not gotten to yet or replied with less detail than usual -- been very busy with balancing both fun and some family issues! -- Wade

JimD
07-19-2012, 10:26 AM
Dang, Wade, your facebook page wouldn't open. Will have to try again later.

wtarzia
07-19-2012, 10:54 AM
Dang, Wade, your facebook page wouldn't open. Will have to try again later.

--- Sorry. Maybe referring to facebook photos will not work here. I did open up my FB to the public.... don't know. --Wade

sabalminor
07-19-2012, 11:44 AM
JimD wrote;

Sabalminor, any idea how it fared in performance to the Hobie 14?


Dick Medve the designer stated that on a broad reach 'she would fly' and accelerates very quickly, if you didn't pay attention
you would end up in the water, thrown off the back and holding onto the main sheet!

I have had contact from the second owner back (who purchased her in early 1990s). He stated that like many multihulls
it was easy to get into irons, you needed speed to tack and that she was a very stable boat. With two on board, she was not fast.
Dick Medve also concurred about the stability and said that she made an excellent fishing platform - with ample room for cooler and fishing gear storage in the vaca.

Once I complete the rebuild/refit and get her in the water, we'll see how she sails!

*AJ*

TDSoren
07-19-2012, 12:35 PM
It opened for me just fine Wade, but I didn't find any pictures of the new rig.

Tom


--- Sorry. Maybe referring to facebook photos will not work here. I did open up my FB to the public.... don't know. --Wade

wtarzia
07-19-2012, 01:16 PM
It opened for me just fine Wade, but I didn't find any pictures of the new rig.

Tom

--- I click on the link and it brings me right to the photo, but I guess the difference, the site recognizes my membership.

Anyway, the 'going to windward' video is up, here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXvmU8ic9x0&feature=youtu.be I may also post the downwind video for a week or so. --W

Daniel Noyes
07-19-2012, 02:08 PM
Here is a picture of a proa in her natural habitat:



https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/246482_342748839134797_420205922_n.jpg



(I used to work for the company that owned that ship.... our toast was "Life's Hell in the East!...)

what a beautiful thing, any more shots of that boat. for some reason the real proas make a much bigger impression on me than the western copies.

wtarzia
07-19-2012, 02:51 PM
...for some reason the real proas make a much bigger impression on me than the western copies.

--- Ha! Mine looks a little more like that one now that I have an outrigger for the starboard shroud too ;-) -- Wade

trefor
07-19-2012, 04:15 PM
what a beautiful thing, any more shots of that boat. for some reason the real proas make a much bigger impression on me than the western copies.


Dan,

You can see some similar outriggers here.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tahitipix/sets/72157606008005567/detail/

Trevor

Tiki Pirate
07-22-2012, 11:10 PM
Well I finally made some saw cuts and started my 16' two piece Wa'apa build. I'm taking any and all advice.

So far I have my side panels cut out (4mm HydroTech) marine ply. I used the default bottom rocker but left the top sheer straight; so I have 22 3/8" freeboard at station 1 and 23 7/8" freeboard at station 2(amidship). I've got some lumber ripped for the bulkheads, etc..

I am still a bit undecided on if it is going to be a tacker or a true proa. I live in the SF Bay Area and the wind can be pretty constant from east to west -with things like islands, bridges, and ridges to mess that up. It can blow really hard here, and the tides rip pretty good as well.

If built as a tacker I'd deck the entire front and make a wood hatch (16" x 18" or so) to create a seat/paddle station in the front. As a proa.. or even a tacking rig I thought a self draining cockpit 12"-14" up form the bottom might be good on either the front or both ends. All this has been discussed here before.

After cutting out the sides I did notice the freeboard is quite high, but really only a few inches more than the boat as designed. I am a bit concerned about windage during tacking. (Another reason a proa might be a good option) I could "fix" the look of the flat sheer by adding some dashboards. I am a big boy (215 lbs) and figure I will be sailing alone most of the time(realist). My wife is just over a hundred pounds soaking wet, and daughter weighing in at 27 lbs currently. If I had them aboard it would be in calmer waters. I'd like to camp cruise (ex-climber/backpacker so I can keep it light). I'd build the longer 24'er but I want to cartop for now.

Planning on glassing the bottom inside/out with 6oz glass and the outsides of the top with 4 oz glass. I have 2 gallons of the duckworks economy epoxy and some wood flour. Any advice on additives for fairing etc? Also I plan on using a cassette style quarter rudder (or two? if proa)

Anyhow. I will post pictures once it goes 3-D. Right now it is still a pile of lumber. Hope to get some more done this week before I head out for a camp trip.

Thanks again everyone for the great thread/info.

wtarzia
07-23-2012, 11:58 AM
...So far I have my side panels cut out (4mm HydroTech) marine ply. I used the default bottom rocker but left the top sheer straight; so I have 22 3/8" freeboard at station 1 and 23 7/8" freeboard at station 2(amidship). I've got some lumber ripped for the bulkheads, etc.. ...After cutting out the sides I did notice the freeboard is quite high, but really only a few inches more than the boat as designed. I am a bit concerned about windage during tacking. ....

--- I guess the wa'apa is supposed to have around 19 inches freeboard, which is good for a light boat. My 16 foot 3-boarder has 24 in the center and rockers up (symmetrical) to 19 in both ends. I do like freeboard despite windage in a narrow boat that will have more sinkage than a dinghy. I find my bow often buries as I sail through steep waves, and in rough weather is sluices a few gallons down my decks and into the cockpit footwell every 20 minutes or so-- nothing that is immediately dangerous, but it it does build up if I am really hanging on to things and cannot devote time to pumping. I was going to add wash boards on the bow (like Tamanu) just for this reason, but did not get around to it. I advise trying the hull as is. If you will take a passenger often then you might like that extra freeboard. The good part is, if you have more, you can saw it off later over winter (a little easier than adding if you do not have enough?). -- Wade

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
07-23-2012, 03:04 PM
--- I guess the wa'apa is supposed to have around 19 inches freeboard,....

Is that freeboard - height above waterline - or hull depth, i.e. height of sheer above the keel line.

Tiki Pirate
07-23-2012, 07:36 PM
Thanks for the advice Wade. I guess I could always chop the top down later.

Indeed P.I., freeboard was not the proper term from my OP. I guess hull depth would be better at this point. Either way I am going to stick with the increased hull depth for now.

I am trying to build as light as I can; while still adding a few mods. I plan on building a 14' ama nui for it; but, it is difficult finding blue foam here in California since it typically doesn't get that cold here.

I am thinking of extending the front deck just past the mast collar area on the plans and putting in a raised cockpit floor. If I built both ends identical I could use it as a proa a w/schooner rig, and/or a traditional crabclaw. I could always configure it as a tacking rig later. I plan on using throwable seat cushions/life preservers on the deck seat areas to increase some legroom that is lost w/raised cockpit floor.

In the future I may add a 4'-6' middle section; but, I want something small for now. I'd like to stay under 23' as not to run afoul with the USCG for not having fixed nav lights if I ever find myself sailing at night.

wtarzia
07-24-2012, 10:24 AM
Sorry, my mistake, that was ~19 inches hull depth at center, not freeboard, for the Wa'Apa. The Tamanu is deeper, around 22-23. --Wade

PeteCress
07-24-2012, 02:32 PM
I plan on using throwable seat cushions/life preservers on the deck seat areas to increase some legroom that is lost w/raised cockpit floor.
Another possibility is raising the iakos off of the deck by some significant amount as is done in Tahitian OC-1s viz: tinyurl.com/btzmvrn

... and also laminating some bend into the iakos so they rise up further under the polas.

I did this on a Mailbu Outrigger I built many moons ago and found it to increase comfort substantially over, say, a HobieCat. You sit on the pola on either side, and your heels rest on the vaka deck below the level of your hips.
Only problem I had was that I made the support structures that connect to the iakos and then pass through the deck and bond to the hull insufficiently strong. 3/4" ply broke under stress. 2x6's proved tb plenty strong. The sweet spot is probably somewhere in-between.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
07-24-2012, 05:14 PM
Thanks, I have one on the drawing board - and thought for a moment that I had the proportions horribly wrong.

Tiki Pirate
07-24-2012, 10:20 PM
Another possibility is raising the iakos off of the deck by some significant amount as is done in Tahitian OC-1s viz: tinyurl.com/btzmvrn

... and also laminating some bend into the iakos so they rise up further under the polas.

I did this on a Mailbu Outrigger I built many moons ago and found it to increase comfort substantially over, say, a HobieCat. You sit on the pola on either side, and your heels rest on the vaka deck below the level of your hips.
Only problem I had was that I made the support structures that connect to the iakos and then pass through the deck and bond to the hull insufficiently strong. 3/4" ply broke under stress. 2x4's proved tb plenty strong. The sweet spot is probably somewhere in-between.


I plan on using Gary's quick lashing method he uses on the decked area of the Tamanu. I was pretty quick and handy with lashings in when I was younger; but, have no desire to thread my lashings through a few small holes on the hull near the gunwale. I like the idea you the raised/bent iakos; however, I think I am going to go with straight box beams at first to keep it simple.

I'm thinking of running 2x4 type mounting brackets out of the hull for the rudder(s) attachment(s). Gary had posted a picture of this once, and I think it is used on the Tamanu as well.

I had to take the last few days off of working on my boat due to a bad back and will be camping until Monday. Thankfully, my back is doing better. I hope to get some more work done on my bulkheads during the week next week and assembling the hull on the following weekend.

DavePont
07-27-2012, 01:20 AM
I plan on using Gary's quick lashing method he uses on the decked area of the Tamanu. I was pretty quick and handy with lashings in when I was younger; but, have no desire to thread my lashings through a few small holes on the hull near the gunwale. I like the idea you the raised/bent iakos; however, I think I am going to go with straight box beams at first to keep it simple.

I'm thinking of running 2x4 type mounting brackets out of the hull for the rudder(s) attachment(s). Gary had posted a picture of this once, and I think it is used on the Tamanu as well.

I had to take the last few days off of working on my boat due to a bad back and will be camping until Monday. Thankfully, my back is doing better. I hope to get some more work done on my bulkheads during the week next week and assembling the hull on the following weekend.

Hi Tiki,
I agree with you re the lashing. I had a thread-through-the-holes setup on my cartopper and it got tiresome pretty quickly, I changed to Tamanu style and it is much faster.

I also did the 2x4 through the hull. Apart from mounting a bit low and having to re-cut and fit they are excellent. The full 2x4 is only necessary for an outboard motor mount. After my re-cut and fit I ended up with two 2x1s spaced about 4" apart vertically (like a 'hollow' 2x4). This is quite adequate for rudder mounting, and lighter, and less draggy if waves hit it.

looking forward to following your progress, Dave P

PeteCress
08-02-2012, 12:05 PM
... have no desire to thread my lashings through a few small holes on the hull near the gunwale.

I am using stainless steel ratchet straps (from http://www.shipperssupplies.com/store/item.asp?ITEM_ID=131) for iako-vaka and 1" strips cut from truck inner tubes for iako-ama.
viz: http://tinyurl.com/bmx4afj

Last time I put a stopwatch on it, my rigging time for Ulua (from trailer to beach ready to sail) was 19 minutes and 38 seconds.

I transport it totally taken apart except for the leeboard. If/when I work out the way to load/unload/transport it with iakos/ama/pola rigged (as in http://johnrollit.com/Ulua/Ulua18 or http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sA9rL4KUioA/TthDuancUtI/AAAAAAAAA54/U-PstQQYqiM/s400/trailer.jpg or http://www.flickr.com/photos/outrigger/7335835/in/set-185726/, I think the time will go down to under 10 minutes - which is faster than most windsurfers can rig.

I'm pretty sure the ratchet straps are faster than nuts/bolts if they are left in place and the iakos just slid under them before tightening as per http://tinyurl.com/7lxanz7 . Also, besides being finger-friendly (the ratchet mech is *big*) there are no nuts/washers to get lost in the sand or grass.

Only caution I see is not overdoing the tension. The leverage is enough so an average person could damage the hull if they tried hard enough.

Dan St Gean
08-02-2012, 12:44 PM
Pete, the Ulua is looking better and better! Losing the useless 2x2's will be more weight saved. I love the ratchet straps too, the Hawaiians are using them on the HSCA canoes as are the Holopuni canoes. There is some trad. rigging going on but it's more for decoration IMHO.

Dan

Tiki Pirate
08-03-2012, 11:43 PM
Got some more done on my build today. It is not progressing as fast as I hoped; but, it is moving along. All bulkheads/stations and sides are now cut out. I still need to do a little more trueing and planeing on my station 1 bulkheads. I am hoping to get some more build time in on Sunday and hope to epoxy the station 2 perimeter timber into place.

My next main task will be ripping the gunwale and chine stock.

I like the idea of rubber lashings for the cross beams across the iakos; but, will stick with traditional lashings vs cam straps for the main hull attachment.


PeteCress I like your modified 2x4 idea for the rudder attachment. Did you incorporate the cross beams into your station 1 bulkhead for added structural support? I am thinking just fore or aft would be best to keep things light;but, worry about interference issues between the rudder system and the iakos. I might have to move the rudder more aft.

PeteCress
08-04-2012, 09:48 AM
PeteCress I like your modified 2x4 idea for the rudder attachment. Did you incorporate the cross beams into your station 1 bulkhead for added structural support? I am thinking just fore or aft would be best to keep things light;but, worry about interference issues between the rudder system and the iakos. I might have to move the rudder more aft.

Wrong guy. I don't use a rudder. Just steering oar or steering paddle depending on tack and crew.

PeteCress
08-04-2012, 10:14 AM
..Ulua is looking better and better! Losing the useless 2x2's will be more weight saved.
Not that much weight. As Those Who Know have aleady advised me, the weight-to-work ratio is poor. I'll know how much weight when I weigh the thing after all the work is done, but it's not going to be much - whatever wood those 2x2's are is pretty light.

I started doing it mainly for three reasons:


I'm recovering from surgery to correct complications from a prior surgery which complications The Wife is convinced arose because I did too much, too soon, too intensly after the original surgery. I can't really disagree with that... and I think she's gonna change the locks on the doors if I need yet another operation. That being the case, I'm restricted to the surgeon's and (more importantly) The Wife's most conservative restrictions vis-a-vis physical activity. In a nutshell, the summer of 2012 is shot to hell and I'm SOL until mid-October.... so I've gotta do *something*....
.
I've got all these cool tools and it seemed like a good opportunity to gain some proficiency with them.
.
Poor judgement....


In the process, I'm converting the back seat to a sliding webbed canoe seat. That's good for about 3 pounds and I am hoping will let me get the bow down where it belongs when one-manning it.

I'm also going to lower the front seat to the spec'd location so the leeboard works as designed. That *might* be good for a couple pounds if I choose the right seat material.... but weight isn't the driving reason.

JimD
08-04-2012, 11:19 AM
Wrong guy. I don't use a rudder. Just steering oar or steering paddle depending on tack and crew.
Glad I decided to stay with an steering oar, too. My self design tracks like a train but unfortunately, tacks like a train, too. Meaning it tacks very poorly but with an oar and not a rudder I can turn the bow across the wind by 'rowing' a few strokes with the oar on tacks.

Dan St Gean
08-04-2012, 04:50 PM
Not that much weight. As Those Who Know have aleady advised me, the weight-to-work ratio is poor. I'll know how much weight when I weigh the thing after all the work is done, but it's not going to be much - whatever wood those 2x2's are is pretty light.

I started doing it mainly for three reasons:


I'm recovering from surgery to correct complications from a prior surgery which complications The Wife is convinced arose because I did too much, too soon, too intensly after the original surgery. I can't really disagree with that... and I think she's gonna change the locks on the doors if I need yet another operation. That being the case, I'm restricted to the surgeon's and (more importantly) The Wife's most conservative restrictions vis-a-vis physical activity. In a nutshell, the summer of 2012 is shot to hell and I'm SOL until mid-October.... so I've gotta do *something*....
.
I've got all these cool tools and it seemed like a good opportunity to gain some proficiency with them.
.
Poor judgement....


In the process, I'm converting the back seat to a sliding webbed canoe seat. That's good for about 3 pounds and I am hoping will let me get the bow down where it belongs when one-manning it.

I'm also going to lower the front seat to the spec'd location so the leeboard works as designed. That *might* be good for a couple pounds if I choose the right seat material.... but weight isn't the driving reason.

Yeah the weight to work ratio is gonna be really bad there. It's WRC and light as 2x2's go. The only heavy wood used in the whole canoe is the ply in the mast step area which could be completely choped out if you go fwith Gary's specs for the step. Unless you have a narrow butt, I wouldn't lower the seat much. The lower location gives the board better support on the off side. Either way light is right.

Dan

PeteCress
08-04-2012, 08:17 PM
Looking at the drawings on page 11 of Building Outrigger Sailing Canoes, it's not clear to me whether that fore seat has tb glued in place or it can just be screwed to the cleats.

On Station 12 it looks spretty clear that the rear seat is screwed.

But on the fore seat's drawing to the right of Station 15, I can't tell - and, since this seat is obviously structural....

My agenda is that screwing would allow trying different seats and also simplify replacement of a seat where rot has set in.

JimD
08-04-2012, 08:34 PM
Our kayak proa Zeno's Turtle out looking for a breeze to sail in this afternoon but not much to offer apart from a few puffs here and there:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d625b3127ccef09d241963b200000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d625b3127ccef09d9131235800000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d625b3127ccef09c89f503dc00000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Paddle power

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2d625b3127ccef09c3936827700000030O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Tiki Pirate
08-05-2012, 01:24 AM
Wrong guy. I don't use a rudder. Just steering oar or steering paddle depending on tack and crew.

My mistake, I had been milling the idea over in my head for a few days before I replied. When I scrolled back up I mistook a post by DavePont for one of yours.

Gary Dierking
08-05-2012, 03:40 PM
Looking at the drawings on page 11 of Building Outrigger Sailing Canoes, it's not clear to me whether that fore seat has tb glued in place or it can just be screwed to the cleats.

On Station 12 it looks spretty clear that the rear seat is screwed.

But on the fore seat's drawing to the right of Station 15, I can't tell - and, since this seat is obviously structural....

My agenda is that screwing would allow trying different seats and also simplify replacement of a seat where rot has set in.

Just screw it.

Dan St Gean
08-05-2012, 05:51 PM
I can't imagine how screwing the seat is much less structural than gluing. The book shows smal cleats that extend fore and aft a bit so varying seating placement would be easy with screws. I placed the front seat there so it would balance portaging it. Kinda brutal on a canoe that skinny though as it hits the traps as well as the deltiods. With a trailer it's pointless to hoist it overhead & with your back, not a good idea in any event. You could however help the trim be moving both seats forward some. I put the seats and the spacing where I did for paddling reasons, but it is really loose without a rudder. Huge props to the hawaiian canoe steersmen.

Anyhow, I'd be leery of placing the leeboard bolt that high up. You can see the initial hole up high. I felt that sailing in any breeze over about 8-10 knots on the tack that wants to pull the board away from the canoe (port) would nearly rip the gunwale off. That's why the hole(s) were below the seat to give a bearing surface that could stand the torque.

Whoops, Gary answered it before I had a chance to finish.

King Erik the 14th
08-07-2012, 12:08 AM
Come on Gary, how much longer?

Gary Dierking
08-07-2012, 04:06 PM
Come on Gary, how much longer?

I got involved with a landlubber type project (shame!!) that I need to finish by spring, and it has taken all of my spare time.
http://teardropbygary.blogspot.co.nz/
The Va'a Motu drawings are complete and there are a hundred or so construction photos, but it hasn't been put in a step by step format yet. If you are an experienced builder, I could release what I have.

PeteCress
08-07-2012, 05:26 PM
Just screw it.
The older I get, the more those three words come out of my mouth.

King Erik the 14th
08-07-2012, 08:09 PM
I got involved with a landlubber type project (shame!!) that I need to finish by spring, and it has taken all of my spare time.
http://teardropbygary.blogspot.co.nz/
The Va'a Motu drawings are complete and there are a hundred or so construction photos, but it hasn't been put in a step by step format yet. If you are an experienced builder, I could release what I have.
I was looking at the van last week, it caught my eye as I'd been thinking about something similar (as a project after the boat)
No I'm not experienced, just impatient! I'm not starting my build until about April next year, it 's just that I haven't decided what to build yet. All of your designs have their attractions, but at the moment the Va'a Motu is winning, partly because of the anticipation of finding out a bit more about what she's like.
Can you at least post a couple more pics of the boat, or even a drawing or 2? Have you tried a differrent rig?

Tiki Pirate
08-07-2012, 11:57 PM
Yeah, I was waiting for the Va'a Motu plans as well; but, figured I could put the 16 foot Wa'Apa to use sooner at less cost. I am pretty jazzed about being able to break it down and will be honing my skills for another larger more complex build in the future.

My workshop consists of two folding tables under some trees. I keep telling myself guys sailed all over the pacific in boats that were built with stone age tools under the shade of trees. It's my inspiration in really.

I do plan on moving operations into the garage once the hull is assembled. Just not much space in there to work unfortunately. I just cover everything up outside when finished working and store assembled pieces in the garage. I do have a fanatsy of a proper canoe shelter built of palm fronds.

I am glad I chose the Wa'Apa for my first build. The design is straightforward enough to keep me out of trouble(so far). :)

PeteCress
08-08-2012, 05:11 PM
I was looking at the van last week, it caught my eye as I'd been thinking about something similar
Here's a project that is probably worth looking at: http://www.boardlady.com/trailer.htm

If you read the rest of the site, you'll see that Eva is a *serious* craftsman in the area of boatbuilding and fiberglass work in general.

Tiki Pirate
08-09-2012, 11:30 PM
Progress update on my Wa'apa build.

I just finished epoxying my last gunwale on, still need to attach all my chines. I will try to pick up some bronze ring nails for that task tomorrow at a large Marine supply store tomorrow after work.

I epoxied up one of four stations. The wood is all cut out for the others.

I found my first mistake today as I revisted my station 1's to plain the edges and true them up - one was about an inch too narrow. Oops, it seems I got confused in my rush to beat sundown and didn't loft it properly. I've had to increase the station heights to match my increased hull depth and connected the wrong dots. I promptly cut out a new one and everything is moving along just fine. If I am not careful, it might just start looking like a boat soon.

DavePont
08-11-2012, 07:04 PM
I like your modified 2x4 idea for the rudder attachment. Did you incorporate the cross beams into your station 1 bulkhead for added structural support? I am thinking just fore or aft would be best to keep things light;but, worry about interference issues between the rudder system and the iakos. I might have to move the rudder more aft.

Hi Tiki, there are photos on Garys' blog where you can see this rudder (and outboard) mount, search for Tamanu Easy Rider Fiji. Particularly as you are doing a Wa'apa.

I did my own take on this and it works well.

http://wikiproa.pbworks.com/f/1326357093/DPUluaRudder.jpg

Fore and aft, it is between two stations: the rear iako station (bottom of image), and the station behind that (towards stern, sealed bouyancy). So rudder (outboard) mount is about 12"? behind rear iako. Simply cutting rectangular holes in the hull (4mm ply) for the 2x4 to pass through, gusseted with some 6mm ply and epoxy glued in was incredibly rigid and strong - brilliant idea Gary.

Later I modified - borrowing more of Garys' innovation (seen on his Fiji Tamanu).
On the right in image it is effectively two 2x2"s, with a 6mm ply bridging their rear faces to form an outboard mount.
On the left it is effectively two 2x1"s, lower one about 1" below my 40mm gunwale, upper one blocked up off gunwale by about 1". On far left I added 2x2" blocks, 1" thick, to give some meat and more separation for rudder hinges.
Hopefully not too confusing. As you see it is a work in progress - so no beautification. The tiller setup was flimsy, have re-worked that, still flimsy! Overall, it works quite well. Main current issue: might have been good to move it all aft to allow more room for tiller, but is about ideal fore-aft for outboard... hmmm. Probably need to re-think tiller setup completely.

Time to apply the Lotus mantra: "simplificate, then add lightness" !

cheers Dave

PeteCress
08-13-2012, 10:21 AM
I'm ready to put new seats into Ulua, but cannot find a spec for how far down the seats go from the top of the gunwale.

Seems tb a critical measurement bco the forces generated by the leeboard.

I notice that my hull is starting to fail in the vicinity of the leeboard bc, I'm guessing, a non-standard seat installation...

To Wit:


Fiberglass weave beginning to separate from resin: http://tinyurl.com/8utrf7l
.
Cedar strip starting to bulge out in vicinity of leeboard: http://tinyurl.com/9x4lrmm

Bottom line : this time I want to get it right.

Distance from top of gunwale to top of cleat under seat? (as opposed to top of seat - to take seat variations out of the picture)

Gary Dierking
08-14-2012, 04:04 PM
Distance from top of gunwale to top of cleat under seat? (as opposed to top of seat - to take seat variations out of the picture)

Three inches from the top of the gunwale to the top of the cleat.
Note that the 1/4" thick aluminum angle, that the pivot bolt passes through, is bolted to the seat so that the seat takes the load more than the side of the hull.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/Ulualeebd.jpg

peterchech
08-20-2012, 09:18 AM
Havent posted here in a while! Well I've been super busy with my plastic keelboat and haven't had time to use my outrigger even once this season. It's taking up space and I'm moving so it has to go, despite all the fun I've had with it. Anyway, if anyone wants it I will give it away for free just pm me. Someone should enjoy it!

http://i961.photobucket.com/albums/ae96/peterchech/DSCF0233.jpg

davlafont
08-20-2012, 09:32 AM
...I'm moving so it has to go...
Bummer! I knew I should have worked faster to finish my GIS so you could show me around Sandy Hook and vicinity. Where are you moving to? No Proa opportunities there?

JimD
08-20-2012, 10:39 AM
Havent posted here in a while! Well I've been super busy with my plastic keelboat and haven't had time to use my outrigger even once this season. It's taking up space and I'm moving so it has to go, despite all the fun I've had with it. Anyway, if anyone wants it I will give it away for free just pm me. Someone should enjoy it!

Such a generous offer. If I didn't live at the other end of the continent I'd be first in line to take it off your hands.

PeteCress
08-20-2012, 12:11 PM
... if anyone wants it I will give it away for free just pm me.

I tried to PM, but no joy.

Sent you a regular eMail at your gMail account.

Let me know if you received it?

wtarzia
08-20-2012, 12:40 PM
Back again from 3 weeks of biking Ireland; great time, but I have only sailed my own outrigger once this season :-( Fervently hoping for a warm fall and winter to get in as much time as possible and get used to the new mainsail. I decided not to attend the North Carolina Challenge starting in a month -- After 5 weeks of traveling this summer, I'm tired, there are job-related complications, and I started (admittedly while being tired) that Short Dragon is not the boat to paddle that long canal in the NCC, but perhaps I am just making excuses for being tired! I hope your sailing season(s) have gone well! -- Wade

peterchech
08-21-2012, 04:18 PM
Bummer! I knew I should have worked faster to finish my GIS so you could show me around Sandy Hook and vicinity. Where are you moving to? No Proa opportunities there?

Haha I'm not moving out of the area I'm simply moving to a place where storage will be an issue.

I have kept it stored in my girlfriend's father's backyard since last season. I thought my next place would have a garage but alas it wasn't an option for me and I can't keep it at his hous forever. Frankly someone should enjoy it if I'm too busy with my plastic boat.

I would still love to sail your GIS with you on sandy hook bay Dave! Stay in touch! I'm over at sailnet alot these days so pm'ing me there is the best way to reach me.

As much as I love my Hunter 25, it was pretty dissapointing at first maxing 6 knots on the GPS, when my homemade boat's averages were closer to 6-7 :)

wtarzia
08-25-2012, 11:55 AM
New photos posted on my website (link below). The photo of the leeboard rails is for someone off-list who was wanted a closer look. The photos of the sail and rigging, with accompanying explanation on the webpage, are for anybody who wants to comment about my new sail issues. I sailed with this new rig only twice so far, on a lake, the first time in 5-10 mph wind, and yesterday in variable 3 mph. Since I averaged 2.5 knots in that terrible 3 mph yesterday, I guess I cannot complain much, relatively speaking, but the flat shape in the top of this squared-out sail disturbs me. The other issue (the foot) I can probably solve easily. An issue not mentioned on the webpage is the crappy halyard the sail came with. I thought it was low-stretch, but turns out, no, it is nylon, so the low-stretch downhaul was just stretching the halyard, so some shape improvement (ie, getting rid of the diagonal wrinkle) will come from replacing the halyard.

http://www.wtarzia.com/NewSaiilforShortDragon.html

-- Wade

PeteCress
09-01-2012, 11:12 AM
Three inches from the top of the gunwale to the top of the cleat.


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/Ulualeebd.jpg

"Cleat" being "Seat Stringer" in the diagram, right?

Yeah, sounds a little inane.. but the penalty for failure is severe...

Gary Dierking
09-01-2012, 03:46 PM
"Cleat" being "Seat Stringer" in the diagram, right?

Yeah, sounds a little inane.. but the penalty for failure is severe...

Yep, seat stringer, cleat, all the same.

granitefallscc
09-05-2012, 01:33 PM
Looks exactly like a finwhale!

granitefallscc
09-05-2012, 01:45 PM
actually more like a humpback!

granitefallscc
09-05-2012, 01:49 PM
I just checked some photos of whales on google. I work in western alaska and I see this profile all the time, I guess I must mis-identify whales oftener than I think.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
09-05-2012, 04:26 PM
Has it been overtaken?

granitefallscc
09-05-2012, 05:31 PM
Very cool. Who's Zeno? Great build by the way, looks like a lot of fun. Any photos of the sailing rig?

Dusty Yevsky
09-05-2012, 06:09 PM
Since it's a double of sorts, how about naming it "Zeno's PairofDucks"?

granitefallscc
09-05-2012, 09:07 PM
I seem to recall reading about Zeno some time in the past now that you refresh my mind.

I found your photos of your rig, nice! I have built a Waapa. There's some photos on GD's website and way back on this thread. How are you planning to change your rig? I see you have a yulogh, how's that working for you? I want to make one for my Gypsy and one for my Waapa. I just can't seem to get started on that. I spent a couple of years on China and I was impressed by how they get around with them.

Co-incidentally I happen to work in your backyard! I just transferred from Western Alaska and now work delivering fuel from Anacortes to Vancouver (city).

flsail
09-07-2012, 12:00 PM
Hey all!

I finally have an outrigger project underway! Most of the strips are on my Ulua hull now, and I'm starting on the iako laminations this week. It has been great fun so far. I have been following this thread (along with Yahoo groups, duckworks, proa wiki, proafile etc) for years now and am excited to be close to actually having an outrigger. I have the Wharram Melenesia plans, and have built the frames for a Wa'apa but this is the farthest I have progressed on a project in a long time.

I want to stick as close to the plans as possible and have really appreciated the posts over time that prove that to be a solid course of action. I recently joined the Clearwater Community Sailing Center to scratch my sailing itch, since I sold my monohull a few years back. Sailing the Hobie Getaways has been great fun, but I can't wait to splash this one!

I will be updating periodically on my site and would appreciate any comments/suggestions!


http://www.flsail.com/projects/59-ulua-blog.html

Thanks
Jon

Dan St Gean
09-07-2012, 01:33 PM
Hey all!

I finally have an outrigger project underway! Most of the strips are on my Ulua hull now, and I'm starting on the iako laminations this week. It has been great fun so far. I have been following this thread (along with Yahoo groups, duckworks, proa wiki, proafile etc) for years now and am excited to be close to actually having an outrigger. I have the Wharram Melenesia plans, and have built the frames for a Wa'apa but this is the farthest I have progressed on a project in a long time.

I want to stick as close to the plans as possible and have really appreciated the posts over time that prove that to be a solid course of action. I recently joined the Clearwater Community Sailing Center to scratch my sailing itch, since I sold my monohull a few years back. Sailing the Hobie Getaways has been great fun, but I can't wait to splash this one!

I will be updating periodically on my site and would appreciate any comments/suggestions!


http://www.flsail.com/projects/59-ulua-blog.html

Thanks
Jon

Good stuff, but it is pretty hard to read blue text on a blue photo background of your blog...

Dan

Sgali
09-07-2012, 02:38 PM
Question for Ulua owners. Do you have trouble tracking when paddling ? Do we need to add a skeg? The boat is fairly unmanageable unless one person steers and the other paddles. We have tried shifting weight with some improvement but still not what we were hoping for. Anyone else experience this?

flsail
09-07-2012, 02:50 PM
Thanks Dan,

I know the site is goofed, I just was messing around when Joomla 1.5 came out a few years back. Joomla 3.0 is coming out soon, so I may get motivated to change again for that. In the mean time, I will poke around and see if I can remember how to change the color of links before they are clicked, I forgot they are blue.

Jon

PeteCress
09-08-2012, 09:43 AM
Question for Ulua owners. Do you have trouble tracking when paddling ? Do we need to add a skeg? The boat is fairly unmanageable unless one person steers and the other paddles. We have tried shifting weight with some improvement but still not what we were hoping for. Anyone else experience this?

Yes.

I still cannot paddle Ulua reliably without using a rudder. Seems like once the bow deviates a certain amount from course, it's all over and no amount of corrective stroke will save it until the boat comes almost to a stop. The worse of the two sides is the ama side, but they are both unmanagable after a certain point.

When I was playing around with a rudder, I found that rigging a line to the tiller, running it through a couple of pulleys on the rear iako, and sitting on the line to stabilize the rudder gave me a sort of skeg - and that more-or-less worked.

The concensus, however, seems to be that Ulua needs a rudder with foot controls for enjoyable paddling.

Dave Pont shows an elegantly-simple foot control at http://tinyurl.com/8rmtvt7.

Gary Dierking built a dedicated "Paddling" ulua with lower freeboard, more floatation, and - of course - a rudder: http://tinyurl.com/9bpev9m

Not being ready for a rudder yet, I have temporarily given up on just paddling. When I want to paddle, I put up the sail and "Paddle Sail". Light air, of course, is vastly preferable. Somehow Ulua becomes more controllable with the sail up and a enough wind to fill it. My guess is that the added momentum under sail lets me paddle-steer more without coming to a stop.

granitefallscc
09-08-2012, 10:27 AM
Yes.

I still cannot paddle Ulua reliably. Seems like once the bow deviates a certain amount from course, it's all over and no amount of corrective stroke will save it. The worse of the two sides is the ama side, but thery are both unmanagable after a certain point.

Rudders and skegs really sap the energy out of paddling. They are like having the emergency brake left on. Try and solve the imbalance by using some ballast forward or aft. If you are not loaded for a trip take a sack of gravel or something and move it around until you find out where it will do you some good. Moving your seat forward or aft if you are able is also a good way. Ballast will not slow you down and might actually speed up the boat by adding water length and carry. Loading the boat for the prevailing conditions is a good habit to get into. Load heavy forward if you are going to weather and aft if you are running or neutral for a beam reach.

granitefallscc
09-08-2012, 10:37 AM
I like the little balanced lug! I first tried that type of rig on my Waapa because I was using bamboo for the spar and had to have a sail that didn't have parrel lines to run up and down because of the joints in the bamboo. After I got used to them I really like them. They are much more efficient than you would think. No wonder they were the most common rig on small working boats for hundreds of years.

Gary Dierking
09-08-2012, 03:44 PM
Question for Ulua owners. Do you have trouble tracking when paddling ? Do we need to add a skeg? The boat is fairly unmanageable unless one person steers and the other paddles. We have tried shifting weight with some improvement but still not what we were hoping for. Anyone else experience this?

It comes down to a design compromise. The Ulua was designed primarily as a sailing canoe and requires a high volume ama to handle the pressure of the sail when it is to leeward. This works against you when paddling and produces extra drag on the left side. Practice time will improve things when you anticipate and react more automatically. To make it a good paddling canoe though, you need a smaller more banana shaped ama that has just enough buoyancy for balance, like you see on the OC1's. Foot pedals connected by lines to the sailing rudder also work very well. I did experiment with a skeg but found it to be worse because the steering strokes became less effective.

PeteCress
09-08-2012, 04:00 PM
It comes down to a design compromise. The Ulua was designed primarily as a sailing canoe and requires a high volume ama to handle the pressure of the sail when it is to leeward..... To make it a good paddling canoe though, you need a smaller more banana shaped ama that has just enough buoyancy for balance....
Sounds like that might also work for sailing if one is willing to hike out on the non-ama side.

Tiki Pirate
09-09-2012, 08:37 PM
Quick update and question on my Wa'apa build. All bulkheads and side panels are done, cleaned up, and ready to assemble - with the exception of the access hatches in STA 1 bulkheads. Since this is going to be a 16' Wa'apa(for now); if I put the hatches on the STA 1 bulkhead they will be blocked by the mast. The easy solution would be to move them to the fore and aft decks; but, the top of the STA 1 bulkheads have a curve which I like because of increased deck strength, improved water shedding ability, and good looks. Is there a good way to mount a flat hatch (8"deck plate)to a rounded deck?

Otherwise, I may just plain the STA 1 tops flat and have flat decks with stringers on the underneath on each side of the hatch. This might be my best option; which would allow me to attach some storage netting on the bulkheads.

I am still planning on a raised floor with scuppers, might be a crabclaw proa, schooner proa, or a tacking rig. It is all still up in the air. I do plan to build a mast step on each end, and one pivoting one(that can be lashed/bolted on top) in the middle for a crabclaw rig, so I can play with the rig some.

I will post some pictures soon, just have to tune up the stems a bit and I should be ready to assemble the main hull.

Any input or advice is welcome.


Edit: Decided to mount the deck plates to the top of the decks and build shims to mount them on a flat surface. I also decided to simplify things greatly by going with a tacking rig initially and building a raised cocpit floor on the front half only - this should add substantial reinforcement to the leeboard attachment area while allowing me to stand in the rear area to adjust the sail, stretch my legs, catch fish, store bulky items lower, etc..

Jim Cummings
09-10-2012, 09:30 AM
Want to add a new mast step location to the Wa'apa Peter gave me. I am going to add a piece of 1/4" plywood at "deck/seat" height, the question is how wide should it be? Gary's book calls for a 12" x 8" x 1/2" ply doubler in one of the drawings in his book, should the 1/4" be larger? The mast are 2 1/2" diameter wooden. The new deck/mast step will connect to a frame at one end.

Sgali
09-10-2012, 04:07 PM
Thanks for all the info regarding Ulua paddling performance. We will continue to experiment to find the best setup.

Gary Dierking
09-10-2012, 04:09 PM
Want to add a new mast step location to the Wa'apa Peter gave me. I am going to add a piece of 1/4" plywood at "deck/seat" height, the question is how wide should it be? Gary's book calls for a 12" x 8" x 1/2" ply doubler in one of the drawings in his book, should the 1/4" be larger? The mast are 2 1/2" diameter wooden. The new deck/mast step will connect to a frame at one end.

The 1/4" is okay but you need the extra thickness around the area where the mast hole is located. Make that 3/4" thick at least 2'' wide around the hole.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
09-12-2012, 05:36 AM
Interweb goldust.

United Nations F.A.O. plans for coastal fishing boats - some sailing outriggers.

http://www.spc.int/coastfish/en/publications/posters/boat-plans.html

http://www.spc.int/DigitalLibrary/Doc/FAME/Posters/Plans/KIR-7.pdf << minimalist 4.7 metre singlehander

N.B. He doesn't say so but the rig on the KIR7 is a shunting proa - however he does detail the tricky two axis bend in the keel.....


http://www.spc.int/DigitalLibrary/Doc/FAME/InfoBull/FishNews/121/FishNews121_49_Blanc.pdf <<< background and build account.

trefor
09-17-2012, 11:04 AM
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8447/7994662834_b2df061a5e_o.jpg

Well, after nearly an entire summer of waiting for the state to tell me my boat was legal to put on the water, I finally got out for a decent afternoon of sailing on Saturday. If interested, more pics on my blog, here, http://trevor-whatever.blogspot.com/2012/09/sailing-stockton-lake-9-15-2012.html

Trevor

wtarzia
09-18-2012, 08:56 AM
You're a better man than I. I was going to go to salt water last weekend when the load of essays to read and a slow pace of workshop work ruined it all. I really want that safety ama set up before I take the taller rig to salt water, as the higher COE definitely makes things more interesting. -- Wade

PeteCress
09-20-2012, 02:46 PM
Three inches from the top of the gunwale to the top of the cleat.
Note that the 1/4" thick aluminum angle, that the pivot bolt passes through, is bolted to the seat so that the seat takes the load more than the side of the hull.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/21351227/Ulualeebd.jpg

Assuming I want to screw this seat in place instead of gluing it (against the day when I need to move it), can anybody suggest a number of screws?

When I did the test fit it became clear that the seat, in addition to being compressed, also needs to keep the hull from being pulled apart - so I'm thinking the screws need to do more than just keep it from falling out of place.

Every inch? Every two inches? 3/4" seat....Cedar Seat Stringer 1.5" screws? or longer?

Dan St Gean
09-21-2012, 08:33 AM
Linked via Gary's excellent blog. Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=JdraOWe59wc

Dan

Dan St Gean
09-21-2012, 08:36 AM
And another. This 27' Ulua is built and tweaked by West coast guy Mike Litter. I like his setup!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-YYvI7R_tU&amp;feature=player_embedded

Dan

PeteCress
09-24-2012, 12:34 PM
And another. This 27' Ulua is built and tweaked by West coast guy Mike Litter.

I'm trying to figure out what he's using for the broken wing ama.

Maybe an old-but-very-skinny SUP turned upside-down?

Dan St Gean
09-24-2012, 02:39 PM
I'm trying to figure out what he's using for the broken wing ama.

Maybe an old-but-very-skinny SUP turned upside-down?

He builds his own surfboards, and it looks like a SUPish design specifically for the broken wing ama. Flat to sit on, and topped with a deck pad. I really like his setup, especially how he's making speedier launches possible with a SS pin to locate the beams and ratchet straps to hold them. He's got a nice setup for multiple guys, but I'm still at a loss how to singlehand effectively without a rudder. those videos make me want to build the tamanu into something like it. I'd have to shorten my tramps a bit, and maybe go with something more like Flaquita's flop over safety ama. Inspirational stuff for me.

I think a Sup would make a great safety ama & have a nice alternate use once at the campsite....this is making me think a bit. There are some good pics of this over on the Hobie AI forum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=wyPdBbnbFoc

Dan

PeteCress
09-24-2012, 07:53 PM
... but I'm still at a loss how to singlehand effectively without a rudder.

I use a steering paddle on trimaran tack and a steering oar on proa tack.

Another option would be to load whatever gear is being carried out over the ama, but I don't carry much gear.

Now that you've got me obsessing on it.... I think I'll try filling my bailing buckets and hanging them over the ama to see if they stabilize things enough. My expectation is that I'll be also be using them for their intended purpose from time to time.... -)

Dan St Gean
09-25-2012, 08:32 AM
The HSCA rigs are prety cool as well. I think if there was any sort of push to make a boat like this quicker to assemble, it would really be a fantastic camp cruiser to shame even the beauties that McMullin & co. are touting over on the sail & oar thread.

Easy to paddle, fast under sail, lightweight, great tramp to sleep on if one wants, etc. However, for any serious user, assembling a HSCA rig or even the very cool Holopuni is a bit long even for the die hard. Now, if one of those rigs has the Flawuita folding method, or Gary's folder allowing quick launch times, it would really be something special.

At this point though, using a rudder is the way to go--I especially like Gary's rudder in his Va'Motu. Gary, any idea when you will release plans for that one?

Dan

wtarzia
09-25-2012, 07:25 PM
I took Short Dragon out with the safety ama rigged yesterday. The akas for the safety ama (and the starboard shroud) were cut down from the box-beams used for the Everglades Challenge trimaran conversion. As such they look gawky and mickey-moused, but they worked. I flipped them to curve upward to hold the safety ama over the water. (The ama is one of the 16 foot, 400 pound displacement inflatables). The curve is not too great, so the ama at its lowest (fore) position is only about 10-12 inches over the water. The ama is strapped to the akas, and the akas are lashed to the hull with line on horn-cleats.

The safety ama takes about 5 minutes to rig, so set-up time with the new sail, stays, and safety ama is now 35 minutes (now getting annoying). Backing up this wider boat now must be considered more carefully as well (total beam now about 11 feet).

The wind in the area was around 9 knots with higher gusts. The sailing was a disappointing 5-6 knots, usually more like 5, as the rig still suffers from excessive twist (haven't had time to rig vang). Tightening down the downhaul really hard did improve things a little -- took out some of the wrinkles seen in the last cruise.

If I sailed in the cockpit, the boat was essentially a trimaran. The taller rig definitely puts us over sooner, so if I didn't get on the side seat opposite the safety ama, it was like sailing a trimaran. And that was OK, really. I did get on the seat and practised keeping the wooden ama unloaded to the extent that the safety ama was just touching water.

I would like to make more graceful amas that curve up a little more to keep the safety ama about 14 inches off the water. But I perhaps when I sail in coastal chop it won't matter much -- it will usually be in the waves given its high volume. I have the infltable and might as well use it, but as a safety ama its profile and windage is perhaps too great -- maybe better to have a purpose-designed foam-under-glass as Gary has used on his outriggers. 3.19 min. video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tvBu9XmL1oo -- Wade

PeteCress
09-25-2012, 07:39 PM
... so the ama at its lowest (fore) position is only about 10-12 inches over the water. ... Backing up this wider boat now must be considered more carefully as well (total beam now about 11 feet).

I wonder how far out the safety ama has to be to do it's job.

If I ever try fooling around with one, I think I will start with it very close to the vaka - maybe just enough room to paddle.

Then try capsizing and keep moving it out until the rig becomes sufficiently capsize-resistant for my own comfort.

I'm thinking that, with it close enough, recovery from swamp is possible by sinking the safety ama as the real ama is pulled up to vertical and the water is dumped out as the vaka goes on it's side, but clear of the water..... and then unloading the safety ama and just letting the real ama fall back down.

Yeah, it's not supposed to capsize with the safety ama in place...... but I can still imagine getting swamped regardless... and I would rather be able to recover from swamp using the safety ama than be prevented from doing so by it.

wtarzia
09-25-2012, 07:46 PM
...If I ever try fooling around with one, I think I will start with it very close to the vaka - maybe just enough room to paddle. ... I'm thinking that, with it close enough, recovery from swamp is possible by sinking the safety ama as the real ama is pulled up to vertical and the water is dumped out as the vaka goes on it's side, but clear of the water..... and then unloading the safety ama and just letting the real ama fall back down...

--- I may experiment, but I would want it far enough away to paddle, which for me includes having to make some wide swings of the paddle for big steering motions. In such a case, I estimate my safety ama might be moved inward about a foot and still allow that. For 180 capsize, the ama could be removed pretty easily (the straps are NRS buckle-type). I think Gary worked out a quick disconnect for his? The ama if removed should have a tether onit to avoid its loss during righting. -- Wade

Dan St Gean
09-27-2012, 09:24 AM
--- I may experiment, but I would want it far enough away to paddle, which for me includes having to make some wide swings of the paddle for big steering motions. In such a case, I estimate my safety ama might be moved inward about a foot and still allow that. For 180 capsize, the ama could be removed pretty easily (the straps are NRS buckle-type). I think Gary worked out a quick disconnect for his? The ama if removed should have a tether onit to avoid its loss during righting. -- Wade

Here 'ya go.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HM-7M5mUf6I/ToOyKUniFTI/AAAAAAAAA2M/276o5GyvItU/s1600/safetyama.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bBSxbuntopU/ToTVOz4-FEI/AAAAAAAAA2U/23S6_7Bqm-w/s1600/safetyama2.jpg

Tim Eley
09-30-2012, 01:36 PM
My Boat started life as a trimaran but after an accident with my' lashings' it became a tacking outrigger and now I would not go back! I am much more relaxed knowing that I can recover from a capsize without any outside aide. Hope the picture works?

PeteCress
09-30-2012, 02:20 PM
... For 180 capsize, the ama could be removed pretty easily (the straps are NRS buckle-type)....a quick disconnect

Seems like disconnecting would defeat the functionality of using that ama as floatation to raise the vaka out of the water while righting - so that the water inside gets dumped.

The idea being to be able to right the boat without having to bail.

Dan St Gean
09-30-2012, 05:14 PM
The challenge is getting that displacement right. How much can you push under? If it's turtled, you'll have to pull the ama over as well as pushing your safety ama under. Get that ama too buoyant, and it'll be a nice upside down raft. One thought the Mike Leneman had was having a sliding beam for the main iako that dould effectively be using the ama as an outrigger to windward or leward as one wished. In a capsize situation, shift it closer to the centerline and right the boat easier.

Your ideal of having a buoyant enough float to bail the hull is spot on though--but it has to be enough to support your weight, prevent dumping in the first place, all while not being so big one would have a hard time flipping it back upright form a 180 degree capsize.

PeteCress
09-30-2012, 08:13 PM
Get that ama too buoyant, and it'll be a nice upside down raft. One thought the Mike Leneman had was having a sliding beam for the main iako that dould effectively be using the ama as an outrigger to windward or leward as one wished. In a capsize situation, shift it closer to the centerline and right the boat easier.


That's what I did when concept-testing the idea. Took it out the local lake, swamped it, loosened the herc straps holding the iakos in place, slid the iakos in till it looked right, and then righted the boat. Worked like a charm.

What was missing was 3-foot chop and gusts into the low thirties.... -)

And I was afraid to stand on the ama - not trusting the iako-ama interface as it was at the time.

But it did seem to indicate that the right-sized, properly-spaced broken-wing ama could do the job.

Having enriched the medical industry significantly back in June, I have not been able to do anything physical for the past 4 months... but the mutually-agreed-upon time to resume activity (If I get into a mess like this again, The Wife's gonna change the locks on the doors....so I am bound to observe the most conservative cautions/limitations) is approaching....

wtarzia
10-01-2012, 08:56 AM
Seems like disconnecting would defeat the functionality of using that ama as floatation to raise the vaka out of the water while righting - so that the water inside gets dumped. The idea being to be able to right the boat without having to bail.

--- I prefer to think that the safety ama is big enough to prevent capsize but if unforseen troubles arise, it should be removable or floodable (a lightly built wooden safety ama with a hatch or a permanently open transom as on some small trimarans -- but I fear that a wooden safety ama is not feasible b/c of weight and you might as well have a trimaran). As for raising hull to bail it: I want a hull that will not need much bailing in the first place (compartments, raised floor, scuppers), although a safety ama that can raise the hull on righting would allow you to build a light, open hull. The factors can be traded off. My reduced cockpit pit can be bailed pretty quickly now, and I can open a scupper to drain it to a couple of inches above waterline (leaving me about 7-10 gallons in there I guess; I did sail it home with a full cockpit last year after a knockdown on the first cruise when I had forgetten to pack the pump and bailer, and before I had installed the drain, must have had 30 gallons of cargo in there :-). -- Wade

Dan St Gean
10-01-2012, 03:32 PM
One could also use an inflatable sup like the pic above for several hundred pounds of displecement and a nice alternate means of enjoyment once at a destination! I really don't think a safety ama need be more than 30# max weight...after all the ama for the Wa'apa is something like 40# and it's big at 16'. A foam and glass ama (why not just get a SUP?) isn't much lighter--although it is solid. I'm sure the HSCA mandates solid amas for a reason.

Dan

Jim Cummings
10-08-2012, 05:56 PM
I want to change the lashing on my Wa'apa to a Tamanu style lashing block. My idea is to cutting away the outer gunwale at the hull joints and replace it with a piece of 3/4' plywood that incorporates a ioka saddle slightly about the deck and acts as a base for the lashing block and block cover. How far back should I extend the plywood from the hull joint and how far down from the deck?

wtarzia
10-09-2012, 12:15 PM
I want to change the lashing on my Wa'apa to a Tamanu style lashing block. My idea is to cutting away the outer gunwale at the hull joints and replace it with a piece of 3/4' plywood that incorporates a ioka saddle slightly about the deck and acts as a base for the lashing block and block cover. How far back should I extend the plywood from the hull joint and how far down from the deck?

--- Want to save time? Butt them under the gunwales. I retrofitted to the lashing blocks simply by butting, gluing, and screwing. Yes, on principle I would rather have the blocks butting up against the akas, with the lashings pulling them together, as in Gary's design, but my retro-fit has proved strong enough, and this set-up has been plenty tested in rough water and some rough landings over the years. Aesthetics rather than strength is probably the theme, then. --Wade

trefor
10-17-2012, 02:28 PM
I finally have a few pics of my 16' Wa'apa sailing. From the Sail Oklahoma Messabout a week and a half ago. And in the third image, that's Frank Baedke's 24-footer in the background. The fourth image is also his.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8333/8096933857_25fdef501a.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8184/8096930031_7e23c26ff1.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8469/8096941270_dc2701fb58.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8309/8067301167_7841f30e0d.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8457/8067300462_490be0ae83.jpg

Great event. Lots of boats with outriggers, actually. From canoes with drop-in sail rigs to our Wa'apas and Dave Gentry's really cool skin-on-frame outrigger canoe.

Trevor

wtarzia
10-19-2012, 09:57 AM
That looks like good fun. Any photos of the skin-on-frame? Did it fly?

Your second to alst photo is either an optical illusion or you stretched your boat to 24 feet with a third section. --Wade

trefor
10-19-2012, 11:38 AM
I didn't see it sailing, but I did help Dave test paddle it two-up. It's more stable than one would think, given the solid 2x4 plank ama. Dave said it sailed fairly well, the following day. I had to leave before he got the chance to check it out under sail. Hope he doesn't mind me posting pics, here. It's still in the prototype phase.

The 24 foot Wa'apa is Frank Baedke's. It's also seen sailing in the background of my third pic. It was cool to have another boat on the water that was similar to my own. My first time to even see another outrigger canoe, in person.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8461/8067299652_f175691a6e.jpg

Trevor

DGentry
10-19-2012, 01:44 PM
Here's the thread I just started: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?154423-Yes-but-what-have-you-done-quot-lately-quot

Dave

James Corduan
10-19-2012, 04:32 PM
Trefor, whats the little red the red boxy thing with the Chinese lug sail?

trefor
10-19-2012, 05:28 PM
Trefor, whats the little red the red boxy thing with the Chinese lug sail?

That would be Gene Berry's junk-rigged PDGoose, "Andy's Junk". Based off a sketch that Andrew Linn made for a possible boat build. Gene built it and I believe Andrew provided the sails.

Trevor

RKDJONES
10-31-2012, 02:04 PM
I've lingered on this forum off and on, looking for the time and patience to move a project forward. I am starting with adding a wood and foam ama to a kayak so I can paddle it as a canoe from a high seat (I eventually would like to build a tandem sailing/paddling proa or tri for weekend trips on Puget Sound). I am paddling some big chilly water with wind waves, but no ocean conditions. I'd like to avoid making stupid mistakes so I am hoping I can get some feedback on my plans.

I want to make the ama from Dow 1.5" blue styrofoam sandwiched between 2 pieces of 8"x8' cedar lap siding (about 40 lbs of buoyancy). I plan to taper the bow and stern but have completely vertical bow and stern. And the ama will have no rocker at all. I don't know what kind of glue to use yet, but heard that Titebond III might be sufficient (does it adhere to styrofoam, and is it really waterproof?). It is a prototype but if it works I will plan to cover it with fiberglass.

Robert

trefor
10-31-2012, 03:04 PM
I'd recommend making your foam ama the way Gary Dierking suggests, here...
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/garyd/quikama.html

I built mine the same method, using blue construction foam and bumping up the dimensions to 11'x8"x8". I also used PL Premium construction adhesive. It sticks to the foam nicely. My only issues have been where the struts meet the ama. Make sure you make the epoxy fillets fairly beefy there and maybe wrap up your struts a little ways with glass tape or cloth. I'll be redoing mine over the winter months.

With planks being on the outside, I'd worry about any moisture eventually seeping in and cupping or warping your siding and pulling it off of your foam sandwich. Maybe somebody else with more knowledge can chime in and refute that, though.

Trevor

Dan St Gean
10-31-2012, 04:17 PM
I'd either build it like Gary recommends (like a surfboard), or make a ply box in which you can stuff some foam for emergency flotation. Alternately the 2x4 being used above by the 2x4 plank ama would give lots of stability compared to the kayak as is. How do you want to use the boat? Stable raft? Use a big ama. A bit of stability for paddling? Use as small as shapely an ama as you can.

Dan

DGentry
10-31-2012, 05:03 PM
I am starting with adding a wood and foam ama to a kayak so I can paddle it as a canoe from a high seat . . .
Robert
Well, if that's all you want to do with your kayak, then just try a 2x4 (or even just a long stick) like my outrigger canoe. It adds far more stability than one would expect, and certainly is easier to make than what you are proposing. You can always glue foam to it, later, if you think it necessary. {FYI, in the same aisle as the PL Premium there are adhesives designed just for foam . . . .}

My canoe is 18 inches wide, but with the outrigger it's the most stable boat I've built in years.


Here she is being paddled by my friend Paul - he says he never noticed the waves until he saw this pic.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w117/alias1719/Paul5.jpg

RKDJONES
11-02-2012, 04:20 PM
Dave, Thanks for the suggestion. I think I will give something really simple like that a try. I should be on the water tomorrow or Sunday with any luck (before the water gets any colder). Robert

Jim Cummings
11-05-2012, 10:46 AM
Was having a nice sail Saturday with my youngest, when we heard a loud pop, the Wa'apa lurched a little and we were both looking to see what we had hit. It turns out the mizzen mast step, boat is rigged as a cat ketch, had sheared off the bottom of the boat. I think i'll rework all 3 of the mast steps I'm using on the boat this winter. I looking for design advice for the step attachment to the bottom of the boat. Solid or hollow wooden mast. The hull was build stitch/glue, so not chines.

granitefallscc
11-05-2012, 11:32 AM
[QUOTE I looking for design advice for the step attachment to the bottom of the boat[/QUOTE]

I used a 1" thick piece of hard wood 12" wide with a square hole cut through for the step mounted on the chine battons and along the bulkhead. If you are not mounting the mast step that far aft then you'll want to add some stringers under the step thwartship. I use bamboo for my masts so I glued a piece of hardwood into the bottom of the bamboo and shaped it to fit into the square hole just shy of the bottom of the boat. I installed a seat with a notch in it above the mast step to accept the mast. I drilled at pattern of holes in the seat to allow lashing the mast into the seat by wrapping around the mast and lacing through the holes. A notch is better than a hole I thought because it would allow the use of different sized mast replacement if a feild repair were necessary.

Jim Cummings
11-05-2012, 01:21 PM
This hull was built with no chines. On close examination the existing mast step blocks are stacked plywood, about 4" x 4" x 2 1/2" thick glued to the bottom of the boat. The one that sheared broke at the limber hole layer of plywood, looks like it had been absorbing water.

wtarzia
11-05-2012, 02:29 PM
Well, if that's all you want to do with your kayak, then just try a 2x4 (or even just a long stick) like my outrigger canoe. It adds far more stability than one would expect, and certainly is easier to make than what you are proposing. You can always glue foam to it, later, if you think it necessary. {FYI, in the same aisle as the PL Premium there are adhesives designed just for foam . . . .}

--- An intermediate solution would be to use a 2 x 4 and glue-and-shape-and-glass a single strip of foam under it. It would look better and be slightly more functional, would not take too long, and would be practise toward making a more dedicated foam ama someday. -- Wade

Wooden Boat Fittings
11-05-2012, 05:57 PM
I know I'm butting into an on-going discussion here, but multihulls are not my forte and I need some help with identification of what seems to be a 15' trimaran hull. Could I encourage you aficionados to have a look at the photos on this thread (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?155121-Help-wanted-with-dinghy-identification-please) and give me the benefit of your opinions please?

Thanks guys, Mike

wtarzia
11-06-2012, 09:28 AM
I know I'm butting into an on-going discussion here, but multihulls are not my forte and I need some help with identification of what seems to be a 15' trimaran hull. Could I encourage you aficionados to have a look at the photos on this thread (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?155121-Help-wanted-with-dinghy-identification-please) and give me the benefit of your opinions please? Thanks guys, Mike

--- Doesn't look like a trimaran hull at all (though I do not know the commercial boat types much). Havbe you considered that this fat sailing/outboard skiff had outriggers for some other purpose (fishing? no, doesn't seem right; some kind of bimini gizmo?).

Perhaps, though, someone wanted to try a trimaran on a fat boat --an older sailor let's say? I saw a standard plastic weekend cruiser fitted with outriggers presummably to allow the aged couple sailing it on a small lake a degree of safe-feeling. Of course, the Sea Pearl has accessory floats, making an already fine monohull design into an ugly, possibly stupid, multihull :-) so who knows? I guess I vote for the latter behavior -- a one-off trimaran conversion as an experiment on a skiff. A lot of people have tried this in the past. -- Wade

Dan St Gean
11-06-2012, 10:04 AM
--- Doesn't look like a trimaran hull at all (though I do not know the commercial boat types much). Havbe you considered that this fat sailing/outboard skiff had outriggers for some other purpose (fishing? no, doesn't seem right; some kind of bimini gizmo?).

Perhaps, though, someone wanted to try a trimaran on a fat boat --an older sailor let's say? I saw a standard plastic weekend cruiser fitted with outriggers presummably to allow the aged couple sailing it on a small lake a degree of safe-feeling. Of course, the Sea Pearl has accessory floats, making an already fine monohull design into an ugly, possibly stupid, multihull :-) so who knows? I guess I vote for the latter behavior -- a one-off trimaran conversion as an experiment on a skiff. A lot of people have tried this in the past. -- Wade

On the other hand Wade, there seems to be a decently successful J24 conversion to trimaran: Keel cut off, H20 amas, etc? I saw it over on boatdesign.net I favor the slim beach draggable designs, but I suppose there's room for fatter than normal fineness ratios as long as they are shallow displacement types.

Dan

granitefallscc
11-06-2012, 11:17 AM
It looks to have to low a Bruce number to sail as a multihull. Maybe the outriggers were for hiking tramps? Kinda looks like a planing hull.

wtarzia
11-06-2012, 11:21 AM
On the other hand Wade, there seems to be a decently successful J24 conversion to trimaran: Keel cut off, H20 amas, etc? I saw it over on boatdesign.net I favor the slim beach draggable designs, but I suppose there's room for fatter than normal fineness ratios as long as they are shallow displacement types.

Dan

--- What is the tradeoff for getting rid of ballast and then adding ama drag? Aside from ugliness? :-) -- Wade

bwd
11-06-2012, 01:50 PM
--- What is the tradeoff for getting rid of ballast and then adding ama drag? Aside from ugliness? :-) -- Wade
With the keel you do lose 400# of lead, and potentially gain beachability, plus a big tramp to lie on while sailing slowly along in your franken-tri.
To some people that's a win....

RKDJONES
11-13-2012, 01:15 AM
--- An intermediate solution would be to use a 2 x 4 and glue-and-shape-and-glass a single strip of foam under it. It would look better and be slightly more functional, would not take too long, and would be practise toward making a more dedicated foam ama someday. -- Wade

Wade,
I ended up sandwiching 2" of foam between two 2x3s (layered horizontally). I just ran some screws through to keep it together (I can glue it up later). I used a couple 1" dowels to attach it to the akas. It was relatively quick and dirty. And it seems to work OK. And as Dave Gentry suggested it has plenty of flotation and ballast. I'm still messing around with a better way to attach the akas to the hull, and need to put a rudder or skeg on it.
Robert