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John Smith
12-12-2010, 10:11 AM
I think we need to accept several facts. Not all American familes are like the ones traditially shown on television. Not all parents are able to help their children with homework, as they don't have the knowledge, or they have a language problem, etc. Not all children have a computer at home. Not all children can easily got to craft stores and such for projects.

Schools, I think, need to begin from the concept that the parents cannot help.Therefore, I would suggest the school be open for a period of time after the classes end and the students would have a place to do their homework, work on projects, etc. with resources, including teachers who can help.

No matter how loudly people yell about parental responsibility, they cannot make every parent able to help with Math homework. I can only imagine the outcry if we made a high school diploma a requirement to give birth.

Paul Pless
12-12-2010, 10:14 AM
Not all American familes are like the ones traditially shown on television. thank god
Schools, I think, need to begin from the concept that the parents cannot help.Therefore, I would suggest the school be open for a period of time after the classes end and the students would have a place to do their homework, work on projects, etc. with resources, including teachers who can help.every school i attended had/has this policy

Phillip Allen
12-12-2010, 10:16 AM
I tutored college algebra...if I had to do it again, I would have to first learn it all over again

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 10:18 AM
Sounds like an assembly line...goes back to the video clip on an earlier thread

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 10:29 AM
Are you assuming that teachers can teach because they have a pice of paper saying they can do better? In theory yes but I have had good teachers and bad ones. Ones with certificates ones without. Saying a school should take on the responsibility for the parents is, I think a mistake and sounds just like a governmental snow job.

McMike
12-12-2010, 10:33 AM
improve parenting.

John Smith
12-12-2010, 10:37 AM
thank godevery school i attended had/has this policy
You were lucky. Schools around here don't. My schools never did.

C. Ross
12-12-2010, 10:39 AM
Schools, I think, need to begin from the concept that the parents cannot help. ...

No matter how loudly people yell about parental responsibility, they cannot make every parent able to help with Math homework.

I disagree strongly.

Every parent, even an illiterate or innumerate parent, can help their kids in school. If they can do nothing else they can and should get their kids excited about school, support them even if they can't help with homework, remove distractions, and insist that their kids lives be better than theirs.

In my community Hmong, Somali and Ethiopian parents understand this, even those who were refugees or have had lives of hardship and danger that few American-born parents can imagine.

Most schools where I live have plenty of in-school and after-school enrichment programs. That's great.

But the parent who does not value education, who undercuts their kids with bad examples and bad choices, is a lousy parent. Period. I feel awful for the kids who are being "raised" by these bozos and morons, and I'm glad my community helps and I'm happy to pay taxes for it (even though my kids don't go to public schools). But I'll never accept letting parents off the hook for parenting.

I think schools need to begin from the concept that EVERY parent can help. It's just a matter of finding out how.

John Smith
12-12-2010, 10:39 AM
Are you assuming that teachers can teach because they have a pice of paper saying they can do better? In theory yes but I have had good teachers and bad ones. Ones with certificates ones without. Saying a school should take on the responsibility for the parents is, I think a mistake and sounds just like a governmental snow job.

You would hold the child accountable for his parent's lack of skills? Or knowledge. You take my post a step too far. A child who has homework he cannot manage on his own and has no help is a frustrated child who really hates school. How does that help?

John Smith
12-12-2010, 10:40 AM
improve parenting.

How about expanding on how we do that? Do we put bad parents in jail? Do we make them pass some kind of test before we allow them to be parents?

Phillip Allen
12-12-2010, 10:42 AM
You were lucky. Schools around here don't. My schools never did.

I think he attended school in the ignernt south

Canoeyawl
12-12-2010, 10:44 AM
I went through what's often called the "golden age of education" in this country and it was very good. Everything was provided in abundance, discrimination was rampant.
And I rarely "liked it"...

However when we were staying with grandmother I really did want to attend full time the local school. Grades one through 12 in only four rooms, a coal fired furnace, and an intimate environment where talking in class about the days work was generally encouraged. The older kids would help the younger ones. To me it looked like fun, which may be the key to education.

Today I own the original one room schoolhouse in that town...

Ian McColgin
12-12-2010, 10:44 AM
You can have an education system that perpetuates families of failure by requiring parental involvement for the child to succeed, or you can have an education system that opens opportunities for each child, regardless of the accident of his or her parents' fitness.

Paul Pless
12-12-2010, 10:44 AM
improve parenting.


How about expanding on how we do that? its a generational thing

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 10:45 AM
improve parenting.

Good luck!

Paul Pless
12-12-2010, 10:46 AM
I think he attended school in the ignernt southi did, in what was the former school for non-whites

Michael D. Storey
12-12-2010, 10:46 AM
improve parenting.
Judith used to teach in a previously existent city on southeast Michigan that shall remain unnamed but starts with the letter Detroit, and during the sparsely-attended parent-teacher conferences, the thing that parents wanted most was answers to simple parenting questions, stuff like 'I realize that my child falls asleep in class, but how should I make her go to sleep?'

John Smith
12-12-2010, 10:48 AM
I disagree strongly.

Every parent, even an illiterate or innumerate parent, can help their kids in school. If they can do nothing else they can and should get their kids excited about school, support them even if they can't help with homework, remove distractions, and insist that their kids lives be better than theirs.

In my community Hmong, Somali and Ethiopian parents understand this, even those who were refugees or have had lives of hardship and danger that few American-born parents can imagine.

Most schools where I live have plenty of in-school and after-school enrichment programs. That's great.

But the parent who does not value education, who undercuts their kids with bad examples and bad choices, is a lousy parent. Period. I feel awful for the kids who are being "raised" by these bozos and morons, and I'm glad my community helps and I'm happy to pay taxes for it (even though my kids don't go to public schools). But I'll never accept letting parents off the hook for parenting.

I think schools need to begin from the concept that EVERY parent can help. It's just a matter of finding out how.

How do you force parents to be good parents? And who suffers if they aren't?

Let's take two homes. One child comes home and needs to go to the local Library. Mom drives him. Second home, there is no car. Mom can't take her child to the library; too far to walk, and there's no bus.

You cannot force all parents to meet your standard of parenting. You open up a huge "pandora's box" if you try. Remember, we need to pass a test to drive a car, but anyone can give birth. No test, no marriage required.

The schools work for the children. The ultimate goal is to educate the children to the best of our ability. We have NO control over what kind of parents these children have. We have some control over how our schools function.

To try to improve the part of this equation you cannot improve is, to my mind, a pointless effort. If we focus on the part we can improve, we can make things better.

John Smith
12-12-2010, 10:50 AM
its a generational thing
That means what? Kids suffer due to their choice of parents and the year they choose to be born in?

Paul Pless
12-12-2010, 10:51 AM
That means what? it means it takes a generation to 'improve parenting'

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 10:55 AM
You would hold the child accountable for his parent's lack of skills? Or knowledge. You take my post a step too far. A child who has homework he cannot manage on his own and has no help is a frustrated child who really hates school. How does that help?

That smells like a teaching issue. Homework comes after class. Not before. I would like to think the students I taught knew what they were practicing at home. If the teacher can not teach, of course the student would be confused by the homework assignments. Punnet squares an example. The teacher spends 45 minutes or an hour going over these in class. Gives them trials in class on creating them checks the students' work, asks them questions.. Class ends. Homework practice doing the work already covered.

Canoeyawl
12-12-2010, 10:56 AM
What is the point of homework?

Phillip Allen
12-12-2010, 10:57 AM
What is the point of homework?

to prevent me from playing

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 10:58 AM
That means what? Kids suffer due to their choice of parents and the year they choose to be born in?

Kids can't choose their parents. They can choose a wife or a husband but

John Smith
12-12-2010, 10:59 AM
I'm pleased with the response to this thread.

I would suggest, however, that we not believe that all school systems are like the one we went through, not all parents are like our parents, etc.

For a wide variety of reasons, our school age children do not get the help and encouragement at home that we believe they are entitled to. The simple fact is that we cannot force all the parents in the country to give that support and encouragement.

Just like we depend on the schools to teach math, English, and other subjects, which we don't expect all the parents to teach them, we need the schools to fill in the other voids, because it's the only part of this picture we can do something with. Failing to do this is simply failing many kids, for which, IMO, we all pay later.

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 10:59 AM
to prevent me from playing

I think a lot of kids think that. When the schoolbell rings it's a pavlov moment.

Michael D. Storey
12-12-2010, 11:00 AM
A few thoughts: education is likely the most political thing we have goin for us. Major involvement at every level of government.
K-12 has broken down and fallen off of the tracks.
We can not expect it to be fixed by a short-term, self-help technique. Stated by others above, it is by now a multi-generational thing.
In my experience teaching, I would say that children are held back by parents who did not do well themselves, educational professionals who start out with the very best of intentions, but after so many years, become worn down by lack of support from above, blame for everything that goes wrong, and they end up spending time counting the days until June.
They have a feeling of hopelessness caused by the fact that children have only a single shot at a years worth of work. If they don't get it in second grade(say,) they will be in deeper in third, as third is not a re-frying of second, but a move-ahead into new territory, built on the foundation of second.
Judith taught second. She would be sent a classroom in the fall that could not (at all) read, but knew the name of every country in Africa.
In our country, both urban and rural, there is a very serious crisis that will take much money and much long-term attention to correct.

Paul Girouard
12-12-2010, 11:03 AM
Kids can't choose their parents. They can choose a wife or a husband but



And some do while they are still kids, not that any of that is "new", but we accept , support , and in doing so encourage that behavior, maybe even nurturer it. And the cycle repeats , and grows.

C. Ross has it right , BUT it's never gonna work for everyone. We will always have the "poor", hey some ones gotta work at low level jobs, we can't export all those type of jobs / or people.


Parenting is a big player in creating productive adults. Duh! Lets have the state do it? Nanny state Smith sez!

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 11:04 AM
No one has mentioned overcrowding in the classrooms. A reason for overcrowding is often a lack of money or buildings. It is obviously more difficult to teach more students but on the same wavelength, developing programs etc maybe just as expensive to develop. I would prefer smaller classes. A manageable number of students and not 25 or so. An impossible task to overcome

Canoeyawl
12-12-2010, 11:06 AM
No one has mentioned overcrowding in the classrooms. An impossible task to overcome

Why?
Don't want to pay taxes maybe?

Paul Girouard
12-12-2010, 11:06 AM
No one has mentioned overcrowding in the classrooms. A reason for overcrowding is often a lack of money or buildings. It is obviously more difficult to teach more students but on the same wavelength, developing programs etc maybe just as expensive to develop. I would prefer smaller classes. A manageable number of students and not 25 or so. An impossible task to overcome



I bet third world counties make education work in over crowded class rooms! Maybe because their parents have taught social skills to the kids BEFORE they send them off to school?

Michael D. Storey
12-12-2010, 11:08 AM
And, the biggest help that a child could get from a parent in schooling is to know that school work, including homework, is valued in the home. The parent, at least until say, 8th grade, should be able to offer something to the child. If there is a language problem, it is incumbent on the child and the parent to overcome this; if the child has to educate the parent, so be it. A parent needs to show approval for work well done. A parent does not have to master the subject matter to do so. I am sure that everyone here has been able to help their child succeed in an area where they (the parent) had no direct experience. A poor-speller of a parent can still help a lower-grade child improve their skills. I never studied calculus, but I was able to find numerous ways to help my son (the one going to Stanford) do well in higher math.

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 11:09 AM
I bet third world counties make education work in over crowded class rooms! Maybe because their parents have taught social skills to the kids BEFORE they send them off to school?

Then here the camel's back is broken.

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 11:11 AM
Judith used to teach in a previously existent city on southeast Michigan that shall remain unnamed but starts with the letter Detroit, and during the sparsely-attended parent-teacher conferences, the thing that parents wanted most was answers to simple parenting questions, stuff like 'I realize that my child falls asleep in class, but how should I make her go to sleep?'

What does this say to you? Sparsely attended parent teacher's conferences.

Paul Girouard
12-12-2010, 11:14 AM
What does this say to you? Sparsely attended parent teacher's conferences.



Parental laziness, to expect more than that out of the students is wishful thinking. The nuts don't fall far from the tree, as they say.

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 11:17 AM
I just don't know how to tackle this. Until 10th grade I left on a school bus at 6:30Am..My sister drove me to the bus. I spent the day in school Picked up the bus at 4:30 and got home around six. Saw my mother, played for a while, did homework without being told, Saw my father at dinner... Homework done, no questions asked of me, went to bed.

I know I didn't glue myface to the TV. Not allowed except on weekends and even then was way too busy.

Ian McColgin
12-12-2010, 11:20 AM
To those preaching that the answer to education reform is responsible parenting, exactly how will the children of educationally, morally, and/or socially disadvantaged parents - jerks, slobs, sluts, and losers - become productive citizens, how will they break free of family dysfunctions, if effective public education is systematicly and deliberatly denied them?

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 11:21 AM
Showing an interest in the kids is not expensive.

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 11:24 AM
The old ads "Do you know where your children are?" If you don't well.. If you don't care or don't expect a great deal from them well.

Lew Barrett
12-12-2010, 11:31 AM
What is the point of homework?

Or properly, too much homework. And I think it is a fair question.

They are giving kids homework in kindergarten and first grade now.

PhaseLockedLoop
12-12-2010, 11:32 AM
What is the point of homework?

Excellent question. I notice no one has offered a serious answer.

Ian McColgin
12-12-2010, 11:38 AM
Like everyone, I certainly agree that parental involvement helps a child's education. The successful Head Start and some other programs show marked success in the part of their program that is really parental education. Any good school system should be taking this into account. However, all real educators know that there are plenty of children with real potential who have parents who will never (being nice here) be helpful. Real educators teach those children, just like they teach others. The secondary fad of blaming the parents, secondary to blaming the teachers, is really just a pseudo-elite justification for forcing children out of any opportunity at the American Dream.

C. Ross
12-12-2010, 11:42 AM
To those preaching that the answer to education reform is responsible parenting, exactly how will the children of educationally, morally, and/or socially disadvantaged parents - jerks, slobs, sluts, and losers - become productive citizens, how will they break free of family dysfunctions, if effective public education is systematicly and deliberatly denied them?

My answer was in my original post. It's quite clear, even if one disagrees with it.

Provide an educational system of quality and care.

Never excuse parents from their number one duty - to care for their children. It's more important than their own dreams, their own wishes, their own choices. They made their choices, or had one thrust upon them. Doesn't matter. They must parent.

When we stop demanding this of ourselves, we all die a little.

Heck the liberals among us should understand this better than anyone. How do you build a compassionate and caring State if you don't first insist that each person have a moral and ethical responsibility for those closest to them?

Garret
12-12-2010, 11:48 AM
Or properly, too much homework. And I think it is a fair question.

They are giving kids homework in kindergarten and first grade now.

How much is always a difficult question. However I think a certain amount is a good thing. It's been my belief that it helps teach a kid to learn on his/her own.

No kid wants homework, but there are a lot of things we have to do that we don't really want. Maybe that's another reason: to teach us that life is full of things ya gotta do, but don't really want to do... ;)

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 11:49 AM
Or properly, too much homework. And I think it is a fair question.

They are giving kids homework in kindergarten and first grade now.

I don't know what too much homework is.
I do know that kids are tested out of the jing jang at every opportunity due to state or fed regulations. Whether it is kindergarden or first grade. I personally think that schools should be allowed to follow their own curriculum based on the needs of the students In essence, give the schools a chance. A kid in Az and a kid in NY are completely different kids and should not be classified as the same just because of age or class.

Ian McColgin
12-12-2010, 11:53 AM
I fear that no matter how many times I pointedly honor the role of parents and the value of schools that help parents do better, I am not getting across the fundamental point that those things are good, parents should not be excluded, but the education system is there for all the children, no matter how worthy or unworthy the parents are. Public education must indeed be designed to work regardless of parental availability.

One might note in passing that many private schools already to this and help young men and women from the most dysfunctional of affluent families achieve more of their potential. Many prep schools can look with realistic pride at children turning into adults better than their parents or at least well educated despite an at best remote home life. Quite the opposite of blaming parents or children, those schools welcome the challenge.

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 11:54 AM
Why?
Don't want to pay taxes maybe?

I don't want to waste taxes. A difference

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 11:56 AM
I fear that no matter how many times I pointedly honor the role of parents and the value of schools that help parents do better, I am not getting across the fundamental point that those things are good, parents should not be excluded, but the education system is there for all the children, no matter how worthy or unworthy the parents are. Public education must indeed be designed to work regardless of parental availability.

One might note in passing that many private schools already to this and help young men and women from the most dysfunctional of affluent families achieve more of their potential. Many prep schools can look with realistic pride at children turning into adults better than their parents or at least well educated despite an at best remote home life. Quite the opposite of blaming parents or children, those schools welcome the challenge.

Well private schools have the flexibility to do that.

Michael D. Storey
12-12-2010, 12:05 PM
Excellent question. I notice no one has offered a serious answer.
When I taught I found a number of uses for homework. As I had mentioned in a previous post, children are often not properly equipped for their current grade. (In this case, the solution is not as simple as 'well, keep 'em back a year.' There is a lotta ****typolitics in keeping a kid back. And it is not always the solution) In addition, it reinforces what has been learned in class. i found that it did not serve well as an introduction to new material. It did not replace classroom teaching well, either. And it is a bad, bad punishment, and should never be used as such.

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 12:08 PM
Homework is practice. You practice what you learn n class. Or you ad to what you learn as in history. In theory it may perk your interest to read additional material.

But now it is to pass the mandatory tests.

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 12:14 PM
I think we should try to take a lesson from Asian parents. Many have no education, can't speak the language, may be poor, hard working and yet they seem to instill a desire to learn. that education is important.

We have lost that apparently

C. Ross
12-12-2010, 12:21 PM
I fear that no matter how many times I pointedly honor the role of parents and the value of schools that help parents do better, I am not getting across the fundamental point that those things are good, parents should not be excluded, but the education system is there for all the children, no matter how worthy or unworthy the parents are. Public education must indeed be designed to work regardless of parental availability.

Actually Ian, I think at least you and I are in almost complete agreement, which I would value.

My rant this morning is because I see our nation slipping, for many reasons, but mainly because of erosion of a sense of - call it what you like: responsibility, duty, fidelity, community. I like it that different kinds of families are recognized. I know that some parents need help. But I see so many parents who are disengaged from their kids, focused on their own selfishness and self-seeking, who have embraced the idea that raising, and teaching, and mentoring, their own children is no longer their job. These are not just people without education and means., they are often those most able to parent. You made a very similar point about private schools, and so I think we might even agree on this point.

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 12:28 PM
It's a "me me " society

pipefitter
12-12-2010, 12:31 PM
I agree with parental involvement too but it has gotten ridiculous. Especially now that we have a lot of single parents raising children who also have to work full time. My favorite homework was the type that had me get a magazine and cut out a certain kind of picture as if everybody keeps a selection of magazines in their homes. Let's see, do I go up to the store and spend my last 4 bucks on a magazine for this assignment, or do I put it in my gas tank so I can get to work the next day. When you are scraping along, the magazine subscriptions are pretty much one of the first things to go. I would often try to have my son draw the picture instead, and somehow that wasn't good enough and the tone of the teacher suddenly has me somehow placed as a parental pariah.

It seems that teachers only recognize two classes of students. Those with parent/s and money and those with parent/s who are on public assistance, totally disregarding that there is a whole class of people who have neither. Same with the work place. I remember having to awkwardly ask if I could exchange my lunch period for being at work later than everyone else because I had to see my kids off to school every day. Employers couldn't quite wrap their heads around that. I had one employer that suggested I drop my kids off at school early and I had to explain to him that the consideration was with me already dropping them off at school early. Interestingly enough, the Ethiopian parents most likely had public assistance.

What the school was really good at? Their dress code policies and enacting the school uniform code, where struggling parents had to now have two sets of wardrobe for their kids, who at school age, grow so rapidly, that you are left to purchase new uniforms a couple times a year and more at times. And recalling a few times where my child got ISS for me trying to substitute another type of white shirt on the fly because he spilled chocolate milk on his other one and I couldn't get the stain out because I was too busy looking for friggin magazine pictures to cut out till 10 at night and that dinner for all kids does not come from a box that is conveniently shoved in the cancer grill. What kind of MORON, picks bright whites for elementary aged children???

The book load. Here are elementary aged children carrying a BACKPACK so ridiculously heavy with books to and from school every day and they can't use the homework exercises contained within, none of which had any requirement of having magazine pictures in which to supplement the lessons?

It got to a point to where if it hadn't been illegal to do so somehow, and with weighing the implications associated with the rampant student behavioral issues at school these days, I would have had less worry home schooling my kids. No daycare to worry with, no repeat offender problem children trying to fight with my kids and suspensions for them daring to defend themselves along with the legal ramifications of such.

I learned to read and write in school and there was maybe one student in a class of about 30 who didn't do so well in these areas. Now, with all this special, sesame street styled homework, internet, calculators, political correctness, etc., you do well to find 1 out of 5 who can even separate sentences in a paragraph with the most basic capitalization and punctuation considerations.

Spend an hour reading the kids facebook pages and see if it doesn't give you a headache in short order and yet many of these kids have been accepted to the university! Parental involvement or not, how in the hell did they pass grade school?

G.Sherman
12-12-2010, 12:41 PM
Clearly, every school aged child in this nation "needs" the following: A computer, access to the internet, a cell phone with texting capability, a set of doting, oblivious parents, and a curriculum that is so dumbed down even a tree slouth could successfully graduate. Let's not forget about a lifetime of being over indulged and the inability to critically think or accept responsibility. After all, no child should be left behind.

S.V. Airlie
12-12-2010, 12:45 PM
I don't advocate a school uniform. I think some of the outfits border on the ridiculous though. Some of the clothes seem to be more expensive than the uniform.
Sneakers $150.00 Baggy pants $70 Bucks (estimates ) all because of image.
Baseball caps..um, $25.00

There are pluses for a dress code.

Canoeyawl
12-12-2010, 05:29 PM
No kid wants homework, but there are a lot of things we have to do that we don't really want. Maybe that's another reason: to teach us that life is full of things ya gotta do, but don't really want to do... ;)

A smart kid will figure that out in about a week. The rest of the year will be a waste of time.
And a genuine disservice to him.

Ian McColgin
12-12-2010, 05:35 PM
Garret has a point. In their very different ways Dewey, Hitler and Stalin and many others saw the value of education as socialization to industrial discipline, a way to break people of the natural rhythms of agrarian life. Of course there's a different meaning to that realization if your goal is to have self-actualizing citizens who can be part of democratic decision making verses wanting docile workers and obedient warriors.

John Smith
12-12-2010, 07:54 PM
No one has mentioned overcrowding in the classrooms. A reason for overcrowding is often a lack of money or buildings. It is obviously more difficult to teach more students but on the same wavelength, developing programs etc maybe just as expensive to develop. I would prefer smaller classes. A manageable number of students and not 25 or so. An impossible task to overcome

My home town sold two schools, as did a neighboring town, and, I suppose, hundreds of towns across the country. They did this when the number of school age children had gotten quite low. Of course, the number of school age children grew again, and space became a serious problem. Budget cuts have also ended the terrific shops those schools had.

It is, to my mind, a huge cop out to say the parents should do this and that. That would be quite nice, but you can't make them do what you'd like, and if these things don't get done, the children suffer. With luck and health, these children will grow to be adults, but they'll not be as productive members of our society, or as successful, as we would like them to be, or they would like themselves to be, and, long term, this is bad for all of us.

John Smith
12-12-2010, 07:56 PM
I bet third world counties make education work in over crowded class rooms! Maybe because their parents have taught social skills to the kids BEFORE they send them off to school?

Based on?

So, if the parents don't teach their children "social skills" we just accept they never learn them? Do we arrest the parents?

John Smith
12-12-2010, 07:59 PM
Parental laziness, to expect more than that out of the students is wishful thinking. The nuts don't fall far from the tree, as they say.

AGain, based on what? Your position is like saying all homeless people are homeless because they want to be.

John Smith
12-12-2010, 08:00 PM
To those preaching that the answer to education reform is responsible parenting, exactly how will the children of educationally, morally, and/or socially disadvantaged parents - jerks, slobs, sluts, and losers - become productive citizens, how will they break free of family dysfunctions, if effective public education is systematicly and deliberatly denied them?

Which category are the parents who filed a lawsuit when their child was throwing his grapes at lunch, and a teacher took the grapes?

Paul Girouard
12-12-2010, 08:01 PM
Based on?

Different bits and pieces of film I've seen when westerners visit schools in poor countries. So a very small sampling.

So, if the parents don't teach their children "social skills" we just accept they never learn them?

Some do , some don't , we pay for jails for those that don't.


Do we arrest the parents?



Maybe we should in some cases. And we do take kids away from some parents , it's called CPS, works some times , fails some times. Like most things in life , one size / solution don't fit all.

John Smith
12-12-2010, 08:07 PM
Or properly, too much homework. And I think it is a fair question.

They are giving kids homework in kindergarten and first grade now.
My oldest daugher was an excellent student. In 4th grade she was placed in the academically talented class. Homework load kept growing. One Saturday my wife call me at work. My daughter is in tears at the homework load she has for the weekend. I asked to speak to my daughter. I told her to spend the weekend playing with her friends, and I'll address the homework issue on Monday.

A bit of history. This class, or, more properly, these classes, began with tremendous coordination. She could use the book she read for history for her book report in English. They strayed. We'd be visiting friends, and my daughter would be in one of their other rooms doing homework.

Monday, I called the Superintendent. He simply asked that I bring her weekend homework assignments to him. I put them in his hand 15 minutes later. He looked over them carefully and got quite upset. She had a biology report they gave her a weekend to do that is the exact report the high school gives to students and gives them three months to do.

He asked his secretary to come in, and he told her to instruct all the academically talented teachers that there will be no more weekend homework, and they should cut down on homework considerably.

John Smith
12-12-2010, 08:18 PM
Excellent question. I notice no one has offered a serious answer.

There is, actually, little valid point to homework. In my limited exposure to college (migraines forced me out) I had a course; "Education". According to that course, many studies have been taken that show homework is of little help, and discourages many students. There are several types of homework. Some is simply busy work, like doing 100 subtaction problems, when ten is enough to show you've figured it out. Some are designed to get you to pay attention in class, like giving you some sort of puzzle that you've not yet been taught how to solve. Theory here is that you'll pay attention when the teacher explains the solution.

Then, of course there were science projects and stuff, and we start getting into what resources the parents have available.

John Smith
12-12-2010, 08:21 PM
My answer was in my original post. It's quite clear, even if one disagrees with it.

Provide an educational system of quality and care.

Never excuse parents from their number one duty - to care for their children. It's more important than their own dreams, their own wishes, their own choices. They made their choices, or had one thrust upon them. Doesn't matter. They must parent.

When we stop demanding this of ourselves, we all die a little.

Heck the liberals among us should understand this better than anyone. How do you build a compassionate and caring State if you don't first insist that each person have a moral and ethical responsibility for those closest to them?

You've made this point:" Never excuse parents from their number one duty - to care for their children. It's more important than their own dreams, their own wishes, their own choices. They made their choices, or had one thrust upon them. Doesn't matter. They must parent."

You have failed, however, to explain HOW you do this. Do you put them in jail because they cannot/will not help their kids with homework? Suppose their child is failing and will stay back. You send them a certified letter. They don't respond. Do you call the police? Without an enforcement mechanism, you cannot force anyone to do anything, and, as I've said, one need not pass a test to have a child.

John Smith
12-12-2010, 08:27 PM
As a final thought for the night, I think one thing missing from our schools is the teaching of the role education plays in our society. We learned about the Wright brothers, but we didn't learn about how what they did was passed on and improved on over each successive generation, via education, and led up to our modern aircraft.

It might make a decent class project to work back from the modern jets and look at how all the technology came to be, got imporved, etc. to give us today's planes.

C. Ross
12-12-2010, 08:47 PM
You have failed, however, to explain HOW you do this. Do you put them in jail because they cannot/will not help their kids with homework? Suppose their child is failing and will stay back. You send them a certified letter. They don't respond. Do you call the police? Without an enforcement mechanism, you cannot force anyone to do anything, and, as I've said, one need not pass a test to have a child.

Again, an assumption that enough laws and enough government power is sufficient to solve any problem. A common and fatal illusion.

Good parenting will come most from a culture that demands it, in a community that supports it. It's your job and my job, not the government's.

And if the government manages schools with your original assumption that parents cannot help, they will almost certainly make things worse and not better.

Ian McColgin
12-12-2010, 08:54 PM
If we rephrase "parents cannot help" to "parents must not be depended on for a school's success or blamed for its failure" I think we can get a bit further along. Then we realize that we absolutely must not have an education system that consigns to failure children who's only sin was being born to losers.

Blaming parents for it all is like blaming teachers or indeed blaming any one thing. It's a way to evade responsibility for the mature hard work it takes to be a person.

pumpkin
12-12-2010, 10:24 PM
I was an advanced automotive instructor for a while until March of this year.

I became a teacher not for the money but because I wanted to teach, share my knowledge and experience with those who wanted to become mechanics. Most of my students came to me with substandard education and issues. Many students came with a time diploma. They put in enough time to get a diploma whether they were educated or not. I found that I had to back up to a grade 7 level to move forward successfully. This was not a problem. By doing so, I had successful students who have entered the workforce and for the most part been quite successful.

What I found wrong with the education system is that it is a business. Kids are treated like inventory and unless they are profitable they are not worth anything. The reason I quit was I was taken into the administrators office 1 too many times and told to terminate students because they were taking too many resources and not bringing in enough revenue. Inventory roll over was the name of the game. Our administrators received bonus’s based on new enrollment and profit margin and they wanted their bonus. The instructors I worked with pleaded with the administration to “Just let him teach! Look at his success.” The administrators bluntly stated that profits come first, period. Their mandate is to be profitable, nothing more. I couldn’t fight the system and I tried.

And I quit. If the students weren’t the reason I was there, then it wasn’t worth the pay cut, putting out the effort and tears to continue. If I was to be constantly controlled by the accounting dept and not student success then I was there for the wrong reason.To see kids on the edge of success have it constantly taken away was heart wrenching. My students have thanked me and stood behind my decision. I now work with a few of them and my boss says they are among the best entry-level employees he has had.

A problem with today’s education system is that many teachers no longer teach because they want to teach. It’s a pay check, nothing more. No child left behind tied grades to dollars. Education has been lost to profits and business is business. Inventory roll over and inventory control have taken a front seat to quality. Parents fit nowhere in the profit scheme. Unfortunately, neither do the students.

Matthew

Ed Harrow
12-12-2010, 10:43 PM
Tough call.

As I've said before, and before, and before - once a kid is two years old they've left the rifle barrel and any change to their trajectory will be difficult, expensive, and painful...

Mathew had some good observations.

Of all the stuff I've read on the subject, I still like The Quality School by William Glasser.

Garret
12-12-2010, 11:30 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Garret http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=2805049#post2805049)
No kid wants homework, but there are a lot of things we have to do that we don't really want. Maybe that's another reason: to teach us that life is full of things ya gotta do, but don't really want to do... ;)


A smart kid will figure that out in about a week. The rest of the year will be a waste of time.
And a genuine disservice to him.

Please note the smiley! I was not being serious about that. I was serious about homework teaching a kid to learn on his/her own. That line did not have a smiley.....

Lew Barrett
12-13-2010, 01:03 AM
How much is always a difficult question. However I think a certain amount is a good thing. It's been my belief that it helps teach a kid to learn on his/her own.

No kid wants homework, but there are a lot of things we have to do that we don't really want. Maybe that's another reason: to teach us that life is full of things ya gotta do, but don't really want to do... ;)

You and I would agree better Garret had you let it go after your first sentence, but I don't think it's that difficult to come up with reasonable assignments. Three to four hours of homework a night has become routine in many schools. That sort of load may be understandable in college, but is often counter productive in elementary school, and is cruel and unusual punishment for most first graders.

Med school or engineering? Yeah sure. Three R's? Demotivating for too many, which is a damned shame.

S.V. Airlie
12-13-2010, 08:57 AM
There is, actually, little valid point to homework. In my limited exposure to college (migraines forced me out) I had a course; "Education". According to that course, many studies have been taken that show homework is of little help, and discourages many students. There are several types of homework. Some is simply busy work, like doing 100 subtaction problems, when ten is enough to show you've figured it out. Some are designed to get you to pay attention in class, like giving you some sort of puzzle that you've not yet been taught how to solve. Theory here is that you'll pay attention when the teacher explains the solution.

Then, of course there were science projects and stuff, and we start getting into what resources the parents have available.

In a way, I do agree but there is the actually discipline that is learned as well. Developing study skills. Once at college, there is no discipline in the way you have professors leaning over you 24/7. You have to develop discipllne yourself to study.

I saw a lot of college freshman that once had the home leash cut went wild. No discipline to study.

Garret
12-13-2010, 09:55 AM
You and I would agree better Garret had you let it go after your first sentence, but I don't think it's that difficult to come up with reasonable assignments. Three to four hours of homework a night has become routine in many schools. That sort of load may be understandable in college, but is often counter productive in elementary school, and is cruel and unusual punishment for most first graders.

Med school or engineering? Yeah sure. Three R's? Demotivating for too many, which is a damned shame.

Hi Lew -

As I mention above to Canoeyawl - the 2nd line was an attempt at humor (hence the smiley). Very lame one I guess - but I thought that smilies denote someone making a joke. I don't believe that it's another reason (though I do believe that no kid wants homework!).

S.V. Airlie
12-13-2010, 09:59 AM
Hi Lew -

As I mention above to Canoeyawl - the 2nd line was an attempt at humor (hence the smiley). Very lame one I guess - but I thought that smilies denote someone making a joke. I don't believe that it's another reason (though I do believe that no kid wants homework!).

Many parents vowed to give their kids more than they had.. the American Dream. No wonder they don't want homework. Hanging on the street corner is more fun. LOL And the complaints "I'm bored " still ring in my ears..There are a lot of things I don't want to do as well but at times, they have to be done..