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View Full Version : Raw Faith is now a Bilge topic



Chris Coose
12-07-2010, 03:41 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?123406-RawFaith-Bulletin!!!!

In case you don't get out into the upper levels. Some of us have been interested for some years over this home built craft that really was never about the boat but of it's builder and master.

McKay has had years of problems in Rockland, last year in Portland and most recently in Salem, where it is reported he was recently arrested.

A few days ago he slips away with one crew member into the N. Atantic on his longest voyage, to Bermuda.
Today he has been separated from his dream mission by the Coast Guard in a rescue South of Nantucket.

This is now Jon Krackaur and bilge material. As afr as I was concerned it always was Bilge topic.

It appears what'll be landed is McKay and his crew and no boat.
What he had in mind, trying to make Bermuda could make a couple pages here in the bilge.

James McMullen
12-07-2010, 10:24 PM
I'm not very surprised how this all ended, I have to say. He has been practicing getting rescued by the Coast Guard for years and years.

What a sad and wretched tale of misguided faith overwhelming reason and common sense from the very get-go.
Just think what all that energy and determination could have accomplished if it had been aimed properly and started with the right foundations of training and education!

The549
12-08-2010, 12:36 AM
his mistake though wasn't necessarily that he didn't build what your typical wealthy boat artiste lover wants tho - he could have built SOMEthing awesome, unproper, and original, with or without the materials given - with time and effort (and maybe paint). it was all the romance entwined with the necessary idea about a Galleon that made no sense. a galleon? that's tough to build.

a hunk of stainless steel from spain with fancy jewels on it do not constitute a sword, even though you could cut and stab with it. you could make a real good knife out of the materials though...

.: he coulda made it to bermuda on a pirate ship, and on budget too. dreams are funny.

Chris Coose
12-08-2010, 07:17 AM
Years ago when I sobered up some of the recommended practices to maintain a good and different life and sobriety was to determine my will from God's will.
Not knowing a God, so to speak, I began to develop just letting my will go and found serenity.
When looking over this faith based effort by G. McKay I don't think he ever attempted to sort out his will from his God's.
He'd get this thought/vision and believe the entire thing was a delivery from God (like Noah) and kept going.

After Noah completed his mission he got hammered and bedded family members.

From here, G. McKay would do well to sit, take a break and counsel with some wise folks to help sort out his will from God's.

ahp
12-08-2010, 12:11 PM
Since they have closed the other thread I will vent here. Raw Faith should be used as a gunnery practice target. The claim that she is a replica of a 16th century vessel is absurd.

pefjr
12-08-2010, 12:31 PM
Is he a Democrat or Republican. We know he is religious , so he has at least one strike against him already. Did he buy insurance before the suicide sail? Life ? or Property? Was he denied an anchorage? Was he educated in the inferior schools of the South? Did he favor arresting Cheney for Treason?. Was he a Yankee fan? Did he dress up in a Oregon Duck uniform and dance in front of the mirror? The panel must know all these kind of facts before proceeding any further.

Steve Paskey
12-08-2010, 12:51 PM
Since they have closed the other thread I will vent here. Raw Faith should be used as a gunnery practice target.

That would be a bit challenging in her current state. From the Portland Press Herald:


Coast Guard Petty Officer Connie Terrell said the 118-foot, three-masted ship went down at about 7:30 a.m. in approximately 6,000 feet of water. "It's not considered a hazard to navigation and there are no plans for salvage since it's so far down," Terrell said.

paladin
12-08-2010, 01:10 PM
Hey...seems like a nice place to scuttle a vessel.

skipper68
12-08-2010, 01:12 PM
Is he a Democrat or Republican. We know he is religious , so he has at least one strike against him already. Did he buy insurance before the suicide sail? Life ? or Property? Was he denied an anchorage? Was he educated in the inferior schools of the South? Did he favor arresting Cheney for Treason?. Was he a Yankee fan? Did he dress up in a Oregon Duck uniform and dance in front of the mirror? The panel must know all these kind of facts before proceeding any further.
We should learn all these questions,and more while he goes on tour,and signs a book deal,that will be the basis of the screen play.
My PC was terrible yesterday with the storms here. When I finally pulled up the thread up top,I was amazed from beginning till end. I never herd about that thing till a few weeks ago. Good riddance,no disabled kids will be endangered.

Yeadon
12-08-2010, 01:14 PM
Too much to learn from this for it to be a bilge topic already.

skipper68
12-08-2010, 01:30 PM
Davy Jones Locker topic? ;)

pefjr
12-08-2010, 02:22 PM
Q: What do you call a doctor that graduates at the bottom of his class? A: Doctor.

If this guy is really a Captain, as in Captain McKay, it makes the word about as meaningless as the word 'hero' has become.

http://a57.foxnews.com/static/managed/img/U.S./397/224/rawfaith640.jpgHe didn't have enough raw faith to go down with the ship? That water is too cold.

Yeadon
12-08-2010, 03:03 PM
I like how they just caught a final glimpse of the stars and stripes just before she went under. Which ever coastie took that photo, nice work.

sailboy3
12-08-2010, 03:16 PM
http://cgvi.uscg.mil/media/main.php?g2_itemId=1066888

The video of the rescue. Nice work by the coasties.

BarnacleGrim
12-08-2010, 03:29 PM
Has anyone else noted that the coast guard says she was 88 ft long, while rawfaithadventures.com says 118 ft?

Eric D
12-08-2010, 03:29 PM
so how does it go from bobbing like the cork to 6000' under???

Rich Jones
12-08-2010, 03:30 PM
At the risk of repeating myself from another thread, was this a planned scuttle/rescue by McKay? If so, is that fraud? If he owned the vessel outright, could he have just taken it offshore with an escort vessel and scuttled it, since it had no fuel or pollutants on board? What are the international laws about this?

Hopefully, the man will now move to Kansas...

Steve Paskey
12-08-2010, 03:30 PM
Has anyone else noted that the coast guard says she was 88 ft long, while rawfaithadventures.com says 118 ft?

I believe that's 88 feet on deck, 118 overall.

Steve Paskey
12-08-2010, 03:31 PM
At the risk of repeating myself from another thread, was this a planned scuttle/rescue by McKay?

I doubt it. Here's how Randall Rice, one of the Coast Guard rescue swimmers, described the situation. (From Foxnews.com)

=============


Randall Rice, a 17-year Coast Guard veteran, said waves up to 25 feet and wind gusts reaching 50 mph contributed to precarious and potentially life-threatening conditions as he saved the ship's captain, George McKay, and another man who was not immediately identified.

"She was getting hit by some pretty hard waves, like 25-footers," Rice said. "I just went, 'Wow.' I was pretty impressed by it. If you've ever seen the 'Pirates of the Caribbean,’ that's exactly what it looked like. It was a really rough ride."

Rice said the ship had taken on about two feet of water by the time the Coast Guard arrived. Following the rescue, Rice said he immediately saw the "uncertainty" in McKay's face.
"It's like he lost his house, it's pretty much the same thing," Rice said. "Emotionally, as we were flying back, I could definitely see it in his face. It's just uncertainty."

pefjr
12-08-2010, 03:44 PM
At the risk of repeating myself from another thread, was this a planned scuttle/rescue by McKay? If so, is that fraud? If he owned the vessel outright, could he have just taken it offshore with an escort vessel and scuttled it, since it had no fuel or pollutants on board? What are the international laws about this?

Hopefully, the man will now move to Kansas...I never had any doubt. Proving it might be a different story. And I don't see any 25'ers in that video.

BarnacleGrim
12-08-2010, 03:52 PM
Hopefully, the man will now move to Kansas...
What, there's an opening for a science teacher?


I believe that's 88 feet on deck, 118 overall.
Thanks

Tom Hunter
12-08-2010, 04:17 PM
I've followed this from 2004 to the end, and listened to the radio interviews with Capt. McKay.

He is certainly a Capt. in that he owned the vessel and holds ultimate responsibility.

I don't think he ever planned any kind of fraud. He very consistently believed that he had a well built, well found vessel. In his earlier misadventures he insisted that "there was not a drop of water in her" and that this proved he was never in any danger. He was wrong about this, but it is what he believed.

Capt. McKay has always been very consistent in his ability to see the world his way, regardless of the opinions of others or facts he had not experienced himself. We all do this occasionally, and it usually ends badly. McKay chose to take his wishful thinking to sea, and the sea treats that behavior harshly.

Some people are asking about insurance fraud or other types of fraud. If you read the threads you will see that McKay never had any money. The idea that he sailed to Bermuda to make money on the insurance is like the idea of sailing Raw Faith to Bermuda in December. Both ideas look good if you ignore a great many inconvienent facts.

nw_noob
12-08-2010, 04:34 PM
After seeing the construction photos, and subsequent discussion here regarding inadequate keel bolts, undersized framing, and incorrect planking methods, am I right to view this as the best possible end to the R.F. saga? It ends with zero dead kids, and one sunken boat. Could the vessel's defects ever have been fixed if a competent builder got his hands on it?

Tom Hunter
12-08-2010, 04:42 PM
@nw_noob

The only way it could have ended better is if the rescue had been less expensive. If he had been hit with a bigger storm, or gotten farther before she started leaking people might have died. So I think you are correct, and this is more or less the best possible end.

There was never any chance of making the vessel a better boat. Perhaps the effort could have been channeled into a better boat, but that is a different question.

nw_noob
12-08-2010, 04:45 PM
Perhaps the effort could have been channeled into a better boat, but that is a different question.

Yeah, that was a lot of lumber used to produce that... thing.

Yeadon
12-08-2010, 04:53 PM
In 2002, George gave an interview to the Working Waterfront (http://www.workingwaterfront.com/articles/Raw-faith-builds-RAWFAITH/9667/).


(George McKay estimates they have spent about $300,000 so far, including most of their savings and funds from the house sale).

Eight years later, I wonder what that final bill came to? Or will come to in the very end.

BrianY
12-08-2010, 05:00 PM
I heard the report twice on the radio this morning during my drive to work. Both times, the newsreader called the boat the "Raw Fish". Talk about a Freudian slip...

bobbys
12-08-2010, 06:08 PM
This is the first i have read about it, Very odd for sure, Seems he is out there a bit.

Its interesting reading the comments, Its as if some have found a "live one" to blast because he has some sort of religious thing going on.

Desperation to link a way out guy there with Christan's..

If the dude was a pot smoking hippy lib i doubt there would be as much outrage..

Either way im sending for the plans

S/V Laura Ellen
12-08-2010, 06:17 PM
This is the first i have read about it, Very odd for sure, Seems he is out there a bit.

Its interesting reading the comments, Its as if some have found a "live one" to blast because he has some sort of religious thing going on.

Desperation to link a way out guy there with Christan's..

If the dude was a pot smoking hippy lib i doubt there would be as much outrage..

Either way im sending for the plans

What the the hell are you smoking?

bobbys
12-08-2010, 06:21 PM
What the the hell are you smoking?.

I have access to pallets from roofing plus a Hot tar pot so i believe i can improve on the design

S/V Laura Ellen
12-08-2010, 06:26 PM
.

I have access to pallets from roofing plus a Hot tar pot so i believe i can improve on the design

Burning all copies of the plans would be the only safe improvement to the design.:d

Tom Montgomery
12-08-2010, 06:27 PM
.
This is the American Dream personified.

Pursue your Dream. Screw governmental regulations, preconceived notions, previous history, and nay-sayers. Go for it.
.

bobbys
12-08-2010, 06:53 PM
.
This is the American Dream personified.

Pursue your Dream. Screw governmental regulations, preconceived notions, previous history, and nay-sayers. Go for it.
..

First your sore about a ark being built on dry land now your mocking cause it would be cool to have a Raw Faith 2 built with recycled materials.

Seems there is no pleasing you...

Tom Montgomery
12-08-2010, 06:55 PM
.
I am mocking?

Not at all. I could not be more serious.
.

S/V Laura Ellen
12-08-2010, 06:58 PM
.
This is the American Dream personified.

Pursue your Dream. Screw governmental regulations, preconceived notions, previous history, and nay-sayers. Go for it.
.
:D


The only caveat is that in fulfilling your dream you should do no harm to others. In the case of Raw Faith the dream was putting unsuspecting people at risk. That is my only problem with the whole issue, some government regulations, preconceived notions and previous history should be heeded.

I have met a couple of eccentric weirdos and they all had dreams and visions, as long as they don't harm others, they add to the social fabric and make the world an interesting place.

Tom Montgomery
12-08-2010, 07:04 PM
:D


The only caveat is that in fulfilling your dream you should do no harm to others.

But that possibility is only theoretical until we set our Dream into motion. Yes?

All REAL AMERICANS accept the consequences. Just DO NOT DARE to prevent me from behaving exactly as I please. If you stand in my way I may plug you.

"Hold my beer and watch this!"

bobbys
12-08-2010, 07:05 PM
I wonder if its still floating around, Not sure if salvage rights apply, Would save a LOT of time starting over although im sure the Right thing to do if one found it would be to give it back to its rightful owner.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-08-2010, 07:07 PM
Better yet, why don't you give Blackjack a call, and go for a sail.;)

S/V Laura Ellen
12-08-2010, 07:10 PM
"Hold my beer and watch this!"

Doesn't this one line sum up the issue in many cases?

I have never hear that beer was involved in the fiasco that was called Raw Faith, but it would explain so much. George could wake up tomorrow and say "hey dude, where's my boat?".

bobbys
12-08-2010, 07:11 PM
Better yet, why don't you give Blackjack a call, and go for a sail.;).

http://drbristol.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/robert-mitchum-love-hate.jpg

Garret
12-08-2010, 07:13 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=2801199#post2801199)
"Hold my beer and watch this!"


Doesn't this one line sum up the issue?

That's what a real Vermonter says as his pickup starts to go into the ditch.

botebum
12-08-2010, 08:01 PM
Nobody died and the threat lies at the bottom of the ocean.
I'd call that a happy ending.

Doug

BarnacleGrim
12-08-2010, 08:13 PM
Speaking of which, what happened to the other disasters-in-the-making?

OrangeAfroMan's OSB transomed boat, and that Absolu 80 luxury yacht?

botebum
12-08-2010, 08:24 PM
I lost a lot of posts for responding to OAM's threads. I wonder if Scot ever slapped himself in the forehead and said "Wow! Doug was right!(again)"
Yeah, prolly not huh?:D

Doug

S/V Laura Ellen
12-08-2010, 08:46 PM
I wonder if Scot ever slapped himself in the forehead and said "Wow! Doug was right!(again)"


Only in your dreams!

Steve Paskey
12-08-2010, 11:34 PM
But that possibility is only theoretical until we set our Dream into motion. Yes?

All REAL AMERICANS accept the consequences.

If someone dies as a direct result of your reckless conduct, how exactly are YOU going to "accept the consequences"?

jroe650
12-08-2010, 11:59 PM
Having been aboard the RF (while at the dock...) I get to add one more comment- Thanks to all in the USCG who acted professionally and risked everything to drag skipper George out of the water. They did a better job than anyone could ask, have treated him with grace, and shown incredible restraint in the media. Yes, there may be action or fines, but that will come later.

We all plan and work to ensure that we'll not be the ones calling for help, but it's good to know that there is one last line when everything goes to hell.

About the RF? You can tell your opinions to anyone, but don't try to bull**** the ocean.

CK 17
12-09-2010, 12:17 AM
is this the same area the Leavitt was lost?

brad9798
12-09-2010, 12:28 AM
Sh*t ... I thought it said BLIND FAITH ... was looking for Clapton ... sorry, carry on!

Nicholas Carey
12-09-2010, 01:06 AM
Burning all copies of the plans would be the only safe improvement to the design.:dPlans?! We don't need no steenking plans! |;)

BarnacleGrim
12-09-2010, 04:19 AM
Having been aboard the RF (while at the dock...) I get to add one more comment- Thanks to all in the USCG who acted professionally and risked everything to drag skipper George out of the water. They did a better job than anyone could ask, have treated him with grace, and shown incredible restraint in the media. Yes, there may be action or fines, but that will come later.
If he broke any laws, sure, that's for a judge to decide.

I don't agree with charging him for the rescue, no matter how irresponsible he was. Saving lives at sea is one of the few sacred things, and if not picking up idiots, shouldn't they be out practising anyway? I'd also hate to see SAR stations close down and people perishing because it takes too long to fly from a centralised station. Or worse yet, an Amoco Cadiz situation, but with people.

RichKrough
12-09-2010, 09:37 AM
I felt sorry for McKay and was secretly hoping he would make Bermuda and prove us all wrong. However after watching the CBS Boston interview (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2010/12/08/captains-tale-of-failed-roll-of-the-dice-nantucket-sail/) and seeing him blame the NPS he is proven himself undeserving of anyone's sympathy or respect

I'll give it about 72 hours before some talking head or congress critter calls the National Park Service anti-christian and pushes this as an excuse to reduce NPS funding .

Bob Adams
12-09-2010, 09:43 AM
I felt sorry for McKay and was secretly hoping he would make Bermuda and prove us all wrong. However after watching the CBS Boston interview (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2010/12/08/captains-tale-of-failed-roll-of-the-dice-nantucket-sail/) and seeing him blame the NPS he is proven himself undeserving of anyone's sympathy or respect

I'll give it about 72 hours before some talking head or congress critter calls the National Park Service anti-christian and pushes this as an excuse to reduce NPS funding .

Like I said in the now closed thread, he's gonna blame everyone but himself. I still find myself feeling a little sorry for him, my God what a waste of effort and
material.

pefjr
12-09-2010, 09:49 AM
I felt sorry for McKay and was secretly hoping he would make Bermuda and prove us all wrong. However after watching the CBS Boston interview (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2010/12/08/captains-tale-of-failed-roll-of-the-dice-nantucket-sail/) and seeing him blame the NPS he is proven himself undeserving of anyone's sympathy or respect

I'll give it about 72 hours before some talking head or congress critter calls the National Park Service anti-christian and pushes this as an excuse to reduce NPS funding . OK, we now know the answer to this question. [QUOTE] Was he denied an anchorage?[QUOTE]The NPS is guilty of not supporting religion and letting this preacher homestead in the park. They must be unfeeling Republicans. And now, all his possessions are in two garbage bags. Wanna bet he is a democrat?

PhaseLockedLoop
12-09-2010, 10:30 AM
Geez, folks: it was the first boat McKay built. Everybody goofs a little, building his first boat. Even I have run into trouble building my first boat. I'm sure McKay's next boat will be an improvement.

rbgarr
12-09-2010, 10:43 AM
I feel worst for his son, Robert McKay, who according to the PPH article, was the second crew member. I wonder if his father guilted him into sailing with him: "I'm going to jail if I don't move RF!" The crew memeber was reported as being sea-sick even before leaving Salem. I might have been legitimately sick for fear of my life!!

James McMullen
12-09-2010, 10:56 AM
Which son of George was the one who came on to the forum to "defend" his dad from all us nay-sayers who showed that we were "filled with hate" for criticizing Raw Faith and its construction? Is this the same son?

Yuck! I feel sick to my stomach about this whole thing. And his poor son. . .How do you cope with the dawning realization that your own dad is a dangerous crackpot who nearly killed you? I bet the twin powers of Denial and Cognitive Dissonance will come into the mix strong, but I still hold out hope that reason and compaassion will eventually triumph, and he'll be all right in the end. Good luck to McKay's kids, and may the sins of the father not be visited on the next seven generations!

huisjen
12-09-2010, 12:47 PM
Now that the ship is gone, McKay doesn’t know what to do next. “So what happens from here,” he asked. “Like I said, I hope this isn’t the death of the dream. The ship was a tool we were using to help facilitate that dream.”

Ignorance can be fixed, but there's no cure for stupid.

Dan

Canoeyawl
12-09-2010, 12:51 PM
OK, we now know the answer to this question. Wanna bet he is a democrat?

I'll take that bet...

from rawfaith.org



They''ll need to comply with the Federal handicap rules- like installing hydraulic lifts and specially equipped bathrooms- which are very expensive. This is good news, though, no nay sayers will be able to tell them they can't do what they've been trying to do all along! It will take an enormous amount of funding- but we Christians are willing to give. Together, we can help realize this dream, all it takes is our prayers, our continued faith, and most of all, our money!!! Please give all that you can. With all good Christian's help, we can help them do it.

13 May 2006
Our lord and savior must have great things planned for the RawFaith and her crew. Oh what a test of the Captain's true faith; to be buffeted by the sea on both attempts to go south. And now to be buffeted by the non-beliving heathens. Be strong, persevere, don't give in, you have heard the voice of God and he will continue to show you the way. Pay no heed to the naysayers, they have no idea of the power that belief gives us.

Chris Coose
12-09-2010, 01:09 PM
The belief system must go somethhing like this.
Everything that happens in the truely devout's life must be God's will.
Therefore, in this case, harbormasters (and you know who I'm talking to!!) and the national park service can only be representative of the Devil.

pefjr
12-09-2010, 01:17 PM
I'll take that bet...

from rawfaith.orgDig down deep and give until it hurts.

Canoeyawl
12-09-2010, 01:23 PM
There are all kinds of pain, jr.

BarnacleGrim
12-09-2010, 01:27 PM
I haven't seen rawfaith.org before, who's running that? I see it was registered in 2003, but it doesn't say by whom.

pefjr
12-09-2010, 01:40 PM
There are all kinds of pain, jr.That Raw Faith I think was a pain to Mckay and he planned the whole affair to rid himself of that pain. But ,this is gonna be hard to prove so I can't hang him yet, but we can get ropes and tackle ready.

adampet
12-09-2010, 02:47 PM
Well this is about the best end I could have imagined. No loss of life and no chance that any lives will be endangered by this vessel in the future.

Reading over at Sailing anarchy finds some interesting links, including the Port risk assessment from Portland.
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0BwqhCfWih7yWNTFjZmY4ODQtZmQ1YS00NDZlL Tk1MmQtN2RmMGViY2U4MzA0&hl=en&authkey=CLST_9kD&pli=1

Notable for what it doesn't say.
Adam

rbgarr
12-09-2010, 02:56 PM
Not even registered, so mcKay hasn

Bruce Taylor
12-09-2010, 03:17 PM
http://0.tqn.com/d/animatedtv/1/0/b/1/1/simpCaptMcCallisterFL.jpg



[The raft sinks.]
Captain McCallister (sadly): Arr, I don't know what I'm doing."

Eric D
12-09-2010, 04:38 PM
sad you have the engine, you place it in the boat but never hook it up. Imagine if it was actually working, then I bet you could have at LEAST gotten the bow INTO the waves and maybe saved the ship. Why was there NO sail up at all, nothing to help get the bow into the wind????

Wait a minute, I will retract my statements/questions and remember who was the "captain" of the "ship"......I am personally saddened and slightly amused at people when they say it is "God's plan" and place all this Trust in to God when just having some basic HUMAN thought could save them so much grief.

Reminds me of the joke, man's house if flooding, sitting on the porch, boat comes by, Nah, I am waiting for God. Water is higher, second floor window, boat again comes, nah, waiting for God, water is still higher, man is on his roof, Helicopter comes, Nah, waiting for God. Man dies, goes up to the pearly gates. Man asks Gee God, why didn't you save me, He says what more do you want, I sent 2 boats and even a helicoptor but you were too stupid and proud to take them up on the rescue....

Always interesting to see how media wants to spin things too...

genglandoh
12-09-2010, 05:04 PM
I am not a religious scholar but I thought God gave man the ability to reason and free will.
So McKay and others who put all there faith into Gods hands are not really following the Bible.

If he believed that God gave him a mission thats great, but he should have used his ability to reason to make the mission a success.

huisjen
12-09-2010, 05:39 PM
What if god gave someone the mission of taking fools bungee jumping on the cheap?

Dan

S/V Laura Ellen
12-09-2010, 05:53 PM
What if god gave someone the mission of taking fools bungee jumping on the cheap?

Dan

Hey back off ... that's my mission!

huisjen
12-09-2010, 06:06 PM
Allan, it's so wonderful to see dedicated individuals like yourself carrying out God's holy work. May the Lord bless you and help your ministry grow to it's full potential.

Praise Jeebus.

Dan

S/V Laura Ellen
12-09-2010, 06:18 PM
Allan, it's so wonderful to see dedicated individuals like yourself carrying out God's holy work. May the Lord bless you and help your ministry grow to it's full potential.

Praise Jeebus.

Dan

God ... oops I thought it was mission from Dog!