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S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 09:07 AM
Picked up in London. If case can be brought against him may be extradited to Sweden. Not sure why Sweden but this was on the news.
Can't spell the guy's name

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-07-2010, 09:09 AM
Poor guy... piss off a couple of major governments, and this is what happens. ;)

SMARTINSEN
12-07-2010, 09:57 AM
Picked up in London. If case can be brought against him may be extradited to Sweden. Not sure why Sweden but this was on the news.
Can't spell the guy's name

Because there is a warrant out for his arrest in Sweden, pretty simple, really.

TomF
12-07-2010, 10:01 AM
The warrant's recent then. Last night, the news report I'd heard said it didn't exist.

Interesting that as I understand it, he's wanted for questioning regarding a sexual offence which doesn't exist anywhere except in Sweden, and the chief prosecutor who originally looked at the case threw it out.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 10:02 AM
the operative word is...pretext

now there is gonna be a serious fishing expedition

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-07-2010, 10:05 AM
Within Europe we now have a high speed extradition system based on the assumption that all our legal systems are much the same - it is now difficult to avoid extradition to another European country.

Of course, the Liar allowed the USA unequal access whereby the US can extradite whom they like from Britain such as people with Aspergers syndrome and a fascination with UFOs, but we cannot do the same with Americans - the Eurowarrant system however is fair and equal.

The first Eurowarrant was not made out to require the UK to take any action - the new one, however, does.

The interesting problem is that the alleged offence only seems to be a crime in Sweden.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 10:06 AM
The warrant's recent then. Last night, the news report I'd heard said it didn't exist.

Interesting that as I understand it, he's wanted for questioning regarding a sexual offence which doesn't exist anywhere except in Sweden, and the chief prosecutor who originally looked at the case threw it out.

Of course public radio didn't say it as a sexual offense in the broadcast. Explains his being possibly extradited to Sweden. When I heard Sweden I basically said WTBlazes!.Why? It didn't make sense.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 10:07 AM
Within Europe we now have a high speed extradition system based on the assumption that all our legal systems are much the same - it is now difficult to avoid extradition to another European country.

Of course, the Liar allowed the USA unequal access whereby the US can extradite whom they like but we cannot do the same - the Eurowarrant system is fair and equal.

The first Eurowarrant was not made out to require the UK to take any action - the new one, however, does.

The interesting problem is that the alleged offence only seems to be a crime in Sweden.

what offence?

Allison
12-07-2010, 10:08 AM
The Swedish Chief Prosecutor has refused to rule out him being extradited to another country if he gets to sweden and someone asks.
Let me guess who that someone might be!

TomF
12-07-2010, 10:11 AM
what offence?Having consensual sex (presumably outside of marriage), without a condom. Can get you 2 years, apparently. The two women in question have admitted it was consensual sex - actually boasted on Twitter about having bedded the celebrity Assange - but reportedly approached authorities when Assange didn't return their calls.

More info here (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?entry_id=78430).

As Phillip said, a pretext.

McMike
12-07-2010, 10:29 AM
Fishing expedition by the US government will produce.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/210/452726959_522038843c_b.jpg

TomF
12-07-2010, 10:31 AM
BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11937110)Yes, strangely the CBC used almost precisely the same words. Assange does not deny having had consensual sex with these two women in August 2010.

"Rape" is a mistranslation, and "molestation" seems rather far-fetched. The Swedish law defines the offence being translated as "rape" as consensual sex without a condom. The women in question pursued Assange, willingly had sex with him, and became miffed when he (a) had sex with both of them in a 4-day period, and (b) didn't call them as he'd promised ... or take their calls when they tried to stay in contact with him.

It's a case of buyer's remorse, not of rape.

McMike
12-07-2010, 10:38 AM
Yes, strangely the CBC used almost precisely the same words. Assange does not deny having had consensual sex with these two women in August 2010.

"Rape" is a mistranslation, and "molestation" seems rather far-fetched. The Swedish law defines the offence being translated as "rape" as consensual sex without a condom. The women in question pursued Assange, willingly had sex with him, and became miffed when he (a) had sex with both of them in a 4-day period, and (b) didn't call them as he'd promised ... or take their calls when they tried to stay in contact with him.

It's a case of buyer's remorse, not of rape.


The coming few weeks and months will be interesting for the Swedish legal system. Don't you find it kind of odd that sex without a condom is called rape and punishable by "up to" 2 years in prison? Rape is rape, no matter what the language, this makes no sense to me, and this is all very odd.

TomF
12-07-2010, 10:55 AM
For what it's worth, this blog (http://www.georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2010/12/sex-charges-and-arrest-warrant-against.html)posting provides quotes and links from published reports by Newsweek, The Daily Mail, Reuters, The Guardian, AOL News etc., including this tidbit from the lawyer representing the women who are allegedly the victims here.
Claes Borgstrom of the Stockholm law firm Borgstrom and Bostrom, who is representing two women who said they had sexual relationships with Assange, said his clients complained to the police of Assange's reluctance to use condoms and unwillingness to be tested for sexually transmitted disease.
***
Borgstrom said that specific details about the the allegations had not yet appeared in Swedish media. But he acknowledged that the principal concern the women had about Assange’s behavior—which they reported to police in person—related to his lack of interest in using condoms and his refusal to undergo testing, at the women’s request, for sexually transmitted disease. A detailed, chronological account of the women’s alleged encounters with Assange—which in both cases began with consensual sexual contact but later included what the women claimed was nonconsensual sex, in which Assange didn’t use a condom—was published on Tuesday by The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/aug/24/assange-wikileaks-swedish-prosecutors-charges)...

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 10:57 AM
SamF.. Please note the importance of using condoms.. I guess that the Swedish Government thinks that using a condom has benefits.

Y Bar Ranch
12-07-2010, 11:02 AM
Heh

http://hville.hostzi.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/cateatingpopcorn.gif

TomF
12-07-2010, 11:05 AM
FWIW, I think that Assange is ... er ... a bit of a scumbag. :D

I am not a fan of Wikileaks' publication plans, or of their use of those documents as a lever to try and halt these charges.

But I think it's also important to understand what is actually happening here to Assange. He's being charged for being a cad, under rather obscure Swedish laws which have no counterpart in most of the rest of the world. And which aren't rape, whatever the news reports say.

And the charges have been shifted within Sweden to a district where there's an amenable prosecutor ... because the prosecutor where the offences allegedly happened threw them out for lack of evidence months ago.

What is important here is that Sweden has an extradition treaty with the US, and the US wants to try him for his Wikileaks' behaviour. This is rather like prosecuting Capone for tax evasion.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-07-2010, 11:12 AM
First, the Swedish extradition request has got to be approved by an English court.

I have a funny feeling that this one will be appealed to the Supreme Court, and I have a funny feeling that the Supreme Court is going to chuck out the request. As I said earlier, sauce for Chilean dictators is sauce for Australian computer hackers.

As for Assange, I suspect that he was jet lagged and in a strange country with a different code of behaviour, with women apparently throwing themselves at him; a situation which thousands of businessmen find themselves in every week.

Y Bar Ranch
12-07-2010, 11:16 AM
As for Assange, I suspect that he was jet lagged and in a strange country with a different code of behaviour, with women apparentlt throwing themselves at him; a situation which thousands of businessmen find themselves in every week.
Allison, can you confirm that women in general have the hots for jet lagged businessmen? This is important information that needs to be leaked!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-07-2010, 11:36 AM
If you don't know what I mean, you must have led a very sheltered life.

Y Bar Ranch
12-07-2010, 11:43 AM
If you don't know what I mean, you must have led a very sheltered life.
I have often been a jet-lagged businessman. The number of women throwing themselves at me for it numbers in the zeros.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 11:45 AM
I have often been a jet-lagged businessman. The number of women throwing themselves at me for it numbers in the zeros.
You gotta fly first class all sorts of perks.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 11:45 AM
I have often been a jet-lagged businessman. The number of women throwing themselves at me for it numbers in the zeros.

has a lot to do with if you're searching for contact or not...I have known guys who can find a willing partner just about at the drop of a hat...not partners I personally would be interested in though

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-07-2010, 11:49 AM
has a lot to do with if you're searching for contact or not...I have known guys who can find a willing partner just about at the drop of a hat...not partners I personally would be interested in though

Philip gets it.

leikec
12-07-2010, 11:51 AM
I have often been a jet-lagged businessman. The number of women throwing themselves at me for it numbers in the zeros.


A change of cologne might be in order, perhaps? :)

Jeff C

TomF
12-07-2010, 11:53 AM
I have often been a jet-lagged businessman. The number of women throwing themselves at me for it numbers in the zeros.It seems that you likely have some blessings to count.

Y Bar Ranch
12-07-2010, 12:03 PM
You gotta fly first class all sorts of perks.
Actually I was thinking of wearing a CD labeled "State Department Cables" around my neck. Kind of like this guy. Irresistable, I'm sure.

http://www.zoogstercostumes.com/images/products/fm61215.jpg

Hwyl
12-07-2010, 12:34 PM
Picked up in London. If case can be brought against him may be extradited to Sweden. Not sure why Sweden but this was on the news.
Can't spell the guy's name

He was not "picked up" he turned himself in.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 12:45 PM
He was not "picked up" he turned himself in.

I saw that but it didn't register...

yzer
12-07-2010, 01:07 PM
Gemma Lindfield, representing the Swedish authorities, told the court he was wanted in connection with four allegations.
The first complainant, a Miss A, said she was the victim of "unlawful coercion" on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange was alleged to have "forcefully" held her arms and used his bodyweight to hold her down. The second charge alleged he "sexually molested" her by having sex without using a condom, when it was her "express wish" that one should be used.
A third charge claimed Assange "deliberately molested" Miss A on 18 August.
A fourth charge, relating to a Miss W, alleged that on 17 August, he "improperly exploited" the fact she was asleep to have sex with her without a condom.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/07/assange-bail-request-refused-wikileaks

It seems that Sweden has some advanced legislation to protect the rights of women. Some may not like that, but it is what it is. Dismissing the claims of these women as "buyer's remorse" seems a tad misogynistic to me.

Assange's solicitor, John Jones, said the case was not about WikiLeaks but was a simple accusation case with the right to bail.

Jones is playing it smart here. The court decided that Assange did not have proof of community ties in the UK and was at risk for skipping bail. None of the people who offered to post bail knew Assange personally.

McMike
12-07-2010, 01:44 PM
Dismissing the claims of these women as "buyer's remorse" seems a tad misogynistic to me.

I would agree unless it is true that both women boasted on twitter after the alleged "rape" that they had a relationship with him. This would call into question (note: not completely disprove) the "rape" charges. At any rate, it would have been nice, that if these women felt violated they would had gone to the hospital and reported that they had been raped. Without that, it will take a lot more than an accusation to convict him. At least I hope he won't be convicted on their word alone.

This smells way too fishy.

TomF
12-07-2010, 01:53 PM
I'm being misoygenistic, characterizing this as buyer's remorse? Perhaps. But what then of Naomi Wolf? She's posted (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-wolf/interpol-the-worlds-datin_b_793033.html)this today.
Dear Interpol:

As a longtime feminist activist, I have been overjoyed to discover your new commitment to engaging in global manhunts to arrest and prosecute men who behave like narcissistic jerks to women they are dating.

I see that Julian Assange is accused of having consensual sex with two women, in one case using a condom that broke. I understand, from the alleged victims' complaints to the media (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336291/Wikileaks-Julian-Assanges-2-night-stands-spark-worldwide-hunt.html?ito=feeds-newsxml), that Assange is also accused of texting and tweeting in the taxi on the way to one of the women's apartments while on a date, and, disgustingly enough, 'reading stories about himself online' in the cab.
Both alleged victims are also upset that he began dating a second woman while still being in a relationship with the first. (Of course, as a feminist, I am also pleased that the alleged victims are using feminist-inspired rhetoric and law to assuage what appears to be personal injured feelings. That's what our brave suffragette foremothers intended!).

Thank you again, Interpol. I know you will now prioritize the global manhunt for 1.3 million guys I have heard similar complaints about personally in the US alone -- there is an entire fraternity at the University of Texas you need to arrest immediately. I also have firsthand information that John Smith in Providence, Rhode Island, went to a stag party -- with strippers! -- that his girlfriend wanted him to skip, and that Mark Levinson in Corvallis, Oregon, did not notice that his girlfriend got a really cute new haircut -- even though it was THREE INCHES SHORTER.

Terrorists. Go get 'em, Interpol!

Yours gratefully,
Naomi WolfYzer,
It is unsurprising that the Swedish authorities described the alleged offences as they did. It is also unsurprising that things like Twitter feeds show that the women involved had rather different views of Assange's actions, up until they realized that he really was boffing them both, and really wasn't looking for a relationship with either. And yes, it seems that he doesn't like using condoms during such romps.

We should, to be sure, wait to hear all the evidence - if there's to be a trial. But it ought to be instructive that the first prosecutor - the one in the district where the offences may have occurred - threw the cases out entirely, pronouncing that there's not a scrap of evidence to suggest that the sex was anything but consensual.

I strongly feel that Assange acted like the worst of cads, but I do not find the accusation of illegality credible - especially considering the women's own reactions over Twitter. I find it much easier to believe that the two are being, erhmm, encouraged to bring the case against Assange ... to get him to a place where he could be extradited on quite other concerns to the United States.

yzer
12-07-2010, 01:56 PM
We'll have to see how that issue argues in court, which is the right place to do it.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the Assange and the 'leaks to issue their doomsday code. That should be happening soon unless Assange was bluffing.

bobbys
12-07-2010, 02:04 PM
He was a hero when he was blasting GW , now its getting close to Obama he is a sexual pervert and needs to be stopped .

TomF
12-07-2010, 02:06 PM
BTW, the link in Naomi Wolf's letter to a chronology of events in today's Guardian is an enlightening read. It does indeed sound like Assange is a jerk I'd want nowhere near anyone female I cared about ... and frankly, his attitudes with the women involved seem quite consistent with my opinions on him as a leaker of confidential documents.

That is - while it's perhaps not all about him, there's a strong and rather noisome streak of narcissism running through the man.

yzer
12-07-2010, 02:10 PM
Looks like Assange's approach to lovemaking resembles hacking and stealing.

Dr.Spoke
12-07-2010, 03:11 PM
It will be interesting to see how this plays out...
Until recently, I would have felt that Sweden would be accommodating to requests from the US: provided they did not contravene Swedish law. We should also remember that Sweden ( the government, in secrecy) has been complicit in "illegal-extradition" of Swedish citizens to places unknown in aircraft owned by US government agencies or companies.
Recently, however, there has been a "cooling" in relationships. At the end of the summer came allegations ( still under investigation) that the US, through their embassy, had been involved in data acquisition that contravened Swedish "grundlagen" ( we'll call it similar to US constitution). This is S.O.P. for most embassies; however it is usually done with the host country's approval ( and often sharing of data) if they are allies. The US specifically did not inform the local security police ( who are sufficiently autonomous that they would not need to inform the government) even when questioned on the point. The embassy's method of acquisition and handling of the data also has broken Swedish "Grundlagen". This is not yet being called spying... But we'll see.
The other thing that may change Sweden's attitude to the US in this matter is the information that was released by WikiLeaks. It would seem the US ambassador's opinion of our current prime minister and our foreign minister is less than complinentary....
This may backfire if the US wants Assange for doing something that is legal in Sweden.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 03:13 PM
He was not "picked up" he turned himself in.
A bit picky but okay. He turned himself in and was picked up and arrested at the precinct.

Happy now.

Uncle Duke
12-07-2010, 03:40 PM
This may backfire if the US wants Assange for doing something that is legal in Sweden.
Probably legal in the U.S., actually - leaking classified information is illegal, but publishing it after someone else leaked it is not - U.S. vs New York Times over the "Pentagon Papers" leak established that. I think....

yzer
12-07-2010, 03:42 PM
Tom,

Do you mean this article in the Daily Mail? LOL!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1336291/Wikileaks-Julian-Assanges-2-night-stands-spark-worldwide-hunt.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Look at the front page of this rag.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ushome/index.html

I've added Daily Mail to my bookmarks should I ever need a Lynda Carter, Brangelina, or Christina Aguilera fix. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, it does seem to be a somewhat informed, if not well supported article

TomF
12-07-2010, 03:48 PM
Many (though not all) of the UK papers have rather interesting front pages, Yzer. Consider it a cultural difference.

yzer
12-07-2010, 03:49 PM
We have papers like that in the US. Sometimes they get lucky.

TomF
12-07-2010, 03:55 PM
We have papers like that in the US. Sometimes they get lucky.Like Assange? :D

Allison
12-07-2010, 03:56 PM
Allison, can you confirm that women in general have the hots for jet lagged businessmen? This is important information that needs to be leaked!

Y-Bar, you've been listening to your mate Popeye if you think I'm in the position to know what those sort of women think!

As for your lack of luck with women I have no idea as I don't know you other than asa bunch of empty electrons. If I may make a suggestion though I think your attitude could be a bit of a problem.
Most women would pick up pretty quickly from just your posts on this topic that you and Assange are actually a lot closer to each other than you'd probably like to admit, especially in regards to your shared attitude to women.
Just as I've said repeatedly on several threads, from what I've read I think Assange has behaved like a total jerk to these women and I don't have a problem with him being prosecuted to the full extent of the Swedish law for any of those actions if indeed he is guilty. I have zero interest in creeps that abuse women and that is putting it very mildly!!

As for you Y Bar, I am a lifelong Anarchist and the things I dream about doing to businessmen like you are not the stuff of your fantasies! If they are then I suggest that you seek medical help immediately before you have the misfortune to pick up one of my "sisters".:D

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 04:01 PM
Hey Allison...do you keep your teeth filed to points? :) (just askin) :)

yzer
12-07-2010, 04:01 PM
Tom,

(I have diet coke on the keyboard. tnx.)

Allison
12-07-2010, 04:31 PM
Phillip, as one commentator on this forum observed, I;m a dried up old hag so actually at my age it's dentures!
I keep several different sets depending on what I'm biting!
The ones filed to points are for the people that I have compassion for, I want to make it a clean wound. For those I have less compassion for I prefer to switch to the blunt and broken ones.
It makes the job a bit harder, a lot more effort is required, but I find the wounds are far more hideous and take a lot longer to heal!

Does that answer your question Phillip. Its a bit hard to arrange a demonstration. You may have noticed that I tend to post at very irregular hours compared to you guys!

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 04:33 PM
Phillip, as one commentator on this forum observed, I;m a dried up old hag so actually at my age it's dentures!
I keep several different sets depending on what I'm biting!
The ones filed to points are for the people that I have compassion for, I want to make it a clean wound. For those I have less compassion for I prefer to switch to the blunt and broken ones.
It makes the job a bit harder, a lot more effort is required, but I find the wounds are far more hideous and take a lot longer to heal!

Does that answer your question Phillip. Its a bit hard to arrange a demonstration. You may have noticed that I tend to post at very irregular hours compared to you guys!

laughing

WX
12-07-2010, 04:45 PM
He won't expect any assistance from our government, they are happy to see him hung out to dry...anything for our boss in the oval office it seems.

Y Bar Ranch
12-07-2010, 04:57 PM
Most women would pick up pretty quickly from just your posts on this topic that you and Assange are actually a lot closer to each other than you'd probably like to admit, especially in regards to your shared attitude to women...As for you Y Bar, I am a lifelong Anarchist and the things I dream about doing to businessmen like you are not the stuff of your fantasies!

I dunno, I think you and I might do well together. I'm not demanding at all...

http://i.bnet.com/blogs/schlitz-ad.jpg

Allison
12-07-2010, 04:59 PM
As I said Ybar, seek medical help urgently!
It's the safer alternative!

skuthorp
12-07-2010, 05:17 PM
Quote; "Until recently, I would have felt that Sweden would be accommodating to requests from the US: provided they did not contravene Swedish law. We should also remember that Sweden ( the government, in secrecy) has been complicit in "illegal-extradition" of Swedish citizens to places unknown in aircraft owned by US government agencies or companies."
I am glad someone else posted this, I was about to. No wonder he doesn't want to go to Sweden! And I hope the UK autorities are very careful with him in prison, it's probably quite a dangerous place for him.
Personally, it looks like a fit up to me.

seanz
12-07-2010, 06:31 PM
He won't expect any assistance from our government, they are happy to see him hung out to dry...anything for our boss in the oval office it seems.

I thought J.Gillard promised consular support? Or to put it another way, if they thought they copped flak about Jihad Jack and Hicks, wait till this really gets going.


Quote; "Until recently, I would have felt that Sweden would be accommodating to requests from the US: provided they did not contravene Swedish law. We should also remember that Sweden ( the government, in secrecy) has been complicit in "illegal-extradition" of Swedish citizens to places unknown in aircraft owned by US government agencies or companies."
I am glad someone else posted this, I was about to. No wonder he doesn't want to go to Sweden! And I hope the UK autorities are very careful with him in prison, it's probably quite a dangerous place for him.
Personally, it looks like a fit up to me.

Read something just after the allegations were made....one of the women has conservative christian connections.....what was she doing with Assange?
Then he checked with prosecuters and was told he was allowed to leave.
It's got hair on it.

Ah, the trials and tribulations of being a freelance spy.


He is freelance, isn't he?

nw_noob
12-07-2010, 06:58 PM
Both women are socialist activists.

And one of them has had some... interesting former associates.

http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy/2010/12/04/assanges-chief-accuser-has-her-own-history-with-us-funded-anti-castro-groups-one-of-which-has-cia-ties/

TomF
12-07-2010, 09:11 PM
very interesting link there, Mr. noob.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 09:19 PM
there ain't no free lunch...beware of geeks recieving "gifts"

Allison
12-07-2010, 09:38 PM
Thank you Noob, Donn I hope you took the time to read that link. I'll excuse you from your homework tonight so that you have the extra time!

skuthorp
12-07-2010, 10:07 PM
The son of Mr Assange lives in Melbourne and evidently journalists have tracked him down. He has had threats in the last few days evidently and police are moving the journo's and others on reportedly. Parasites, watch the pics in the news tonight showing exactly what address and pestering the feller. I'd move 'em on with a firehose at least.

seanz
12-07-2010, 11:00 PM
Both women are socialist activists.

And you know this, how?

Allison
12-07-2010, 11:58 PM
One is a socialist activist that went to Cuba and the only group she got involved with was a Right wing anti Castro group that lead to her being expelled from Cuba!
She has links to the CIA through right wing Cuban terrorists and groups that they support.
Hardly a Socialist activist, a little more like a plant in the Socialist scene in Sweden, one with very dubious connections.
The other one, from her own evidence, is just a bored fashionably acceptable "left" groupie looking to get a name.

Yeah real hard core Socialist activists!!

Did you read all that article Donn?
So you know that it's bad debating technique to keep repeating the same simple formula especially when it has been disproven.
It makes you look sort of foolish and inept at debate, something I know that you are striving really hard to overcome.
You have been doing so well recently till this little slip!

yzer
12-08-2010, 02:15 AM
Assange's defenders employ slander, misogyny and conspiracy theories in tabloids and the blogosphere. The Guardian has it nailed down this evening. Progressive wingnuts or Tea Party fanatics: what is the difference in tactics when it comes down the irrational fringes of politics?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/07/rape-claims-julian-assange

Allison
12-08-2010, 02:33 AM
Yzer,
Are you trying to imply that I'm a misogynist!
I think the whole thing is possibly a bit of a put up. There is quite possibly a case to answer but there is a lot more going on here than just a simple sleaze bag rapist case.
The whole use of the term rape is highly provocative as neither of the 2 women has actually claimed that Assange raped them in the universally accepted way that this term is used.
As most of the govt.'s of the Western world have been embarrassed by the releases it is easy to paint anybody who supports Wikileaks as the "irrational fringe of politics". The mainstream has egg all over their faces!

Check my posts as to what I have said about anybody who is found guilty of abuse of women!
I think it is an abuse of the situation to hijack this case that he is involved in and try to discredit the whole program that Wikileaks is involved in.
That is a very cynical distortion of the situation to use it for political purposes.
The right wing, the anti Wikileaks people, are misogynists because they are using the plight of these women to further their own political position. If that's not misogynistic behaviour then what is?

Allison
12-08-2010, 03:37 AM
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-this-case-must-not-obscure-what-wikileaks-has-told-us-2154109.html

Worth reading for some balance on the benefits of Wikileaks cable release and another person who while praising the leaks doesn't have a problem with Assange being tried as a rapist

downthecreek
12-08-2010, 03:38 AM
Tom,

Do you mean this article in the Daily Mail? LOL!



The Daily Mail is a great favourite amongst American right wingers scouring the internet for "dirt" on all things UK. There is no richer source - not even comics like the "Sun" and the "News of the World".

It is true gutter press, pretending to be something else, and renowned for its selective and sensational reporting, distortions, omissions and straightforward lies (or, at least, "facts" that are just plain wrong) The goal of the Daily Mail is to titillate and outrage its readers. Happy reading!

Y Bar Ranch
12-08-2010, 08:02 AM
The right wing, the anti Wikileaks people, are misogynists

AM NOT

http://cdn.nextround.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/canoe_ad.jpg

TomF
12-08-2010, 08:08 AM
Oh Joy, DTC! Thanks for your succinct description of the Daily Mail. We have the occasional paper like that too, though ours are usually a bit more reliably close to the facts than what you're describing.

All said, however, the Assange affair does seem uniquely open to misinterpretation and a rather elastic interpretation of events than many, thanks in part to the singularity of the Swedish laws in question, and the wide range of "facts" being introduced for our perusal.

Once again, my thinking is that the sexual charges are most likely opportunistic - whether on the part of the women themselves, or whether they are being .. encouraged .. to bring them. And that Assange himself has the morals of a ferret and a rather prominent narcissistic streak, but is being set up here precisely because of his Wikileaks site. As Naomi Wolf so neatly put it, there are many other such jerks out there who need Interpol to pursue prosecution for similar offences against women, if indeed that is the motivation here.

t

Allison
12-08-2010, 08:15 AM
The right wing, the anti Wikileaks people, are misogynists because they are using the plight of these women to further their own political position

Y-Bar, that's the whole quote.
I'm happy to accept that you're not using Assange's personal life as an attempt to smear Wikileaks when I see you go back and edit out all your comments to that affect. I'll let you figure out which ones they are, there's enough to keep you busy for a while.
As for the rest of the Right wing smear campaign, it still stands condemned!
Any of the pro wiki people who slander the women without evidence before a trial or claim that Assange is blameless are doing the same thing!

Allison
12-08-2010, 08:19 AM
Tom, the Independent has an article about tarnished icons that I linked to in another thread, all characters who could do with Interpol chasing them up. Well one is dead but there are thousands of others. I know a few!

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?123441-Tarnished-Icons

Y Bar Ranch
12-08-2010, 08:26 AM
I'm happy to accept that you're not using Assange's personal life as an attempt to smear Wikileaks...
Lack of integrity is lack of integrity, and he IS wikileaks.

Allison
12-08-2010, 08:32 AM
he IS wikileaks. That's a bit strange.

So if someone shows lack of integrity in their personal life then anything that they do in their public life is totally without merit?
There are quite a few icons of the Right who have feet of clay!
Y_Bar are you sure that you want to hold to that position?

Y Bar Ranch
12-08-2010, 08:36 AM
he IS wikileaks. That's a bit strange.

So if someone shows lack of integrity in their personal life then anything that they do in their public life is totally without merit?
There are quite a few icons of the Right who have feet of clay!
Y_Bar are you sure that you want to hold to that position?
I know for a fact that lack of integrity in personal relations will get a security clearance revoked, for example. Where I live the head of the school board just got canned for getting charged with a DWI. He was a great administrator. Etc.

So, yeah, I stand directly and squarely behind that statement.

S.V. Airlie
12-08-2010, 08:43 AM
Umm Chapaquitic. Personal life and public life are often intertwined. Rangel is being given support because of what he did in the war. Accused of a lack of integrity today. A fine line....He has done things that were good also bad; a mix. Of course one often overshadows the other. This by the way is not a party thing. Happens on both sides.

Allison
12-08-2010, 08:45 AM
W got busted repeatedly for drink driving and cocaine, got his record expunged totally and went on to be Governor of Texas and President! Just a little more involved than the school administrator!
W ordered torture, that is illegal under US and International Law. We had this whole debate a while back. DTC quoted the relevant sections of US law and the International treaties. I could spend a bit of time listing them but why bother talking to a brick wall when I can finish watching my movie.
Goodnight Sir!

S.V. Airlie
12-08-2010, 08:50 AM
Allison I agree but there have been other presidents who have done similar things. One is on the $20.00 bill today. Should we expect a bill to have Bush's face on it in a hundred years?

TomF
12-08-2010, 08:51 AM
Tom, the Independent has an article about tarnished icons that I linked to in another thread, all characters who could do with Interpol chasing them up. Well one is dead but there are thousands of others. I know a few!

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?123441-Tarnished-IconsA horrible read, Allison. Though a necessary one. Thanks for posting it.

Y Bar Ranch
12-08-2010, 08:59 AM
W got busted repeatedly for drink driving and cocaine, got his record expunged totally and went on to be Governor of Texas and President! Just a little more involved than the school administrator!
So what's your point? That integrity does matter, or that it doesn't? You seem to be arguing that it doesn't, using Bush as an example where it wasn't important.

TomF
12-08-2010, 09:19 AM
So what's your point? That integrity does matter, or that it doesn't? You seem to be arguing that it doesn't, using Bush as an example where it wasn't important.If I might,

I often get irritated that the Right (not necessarily you, Y Bar, but the party of Jesus/Guns/Babies/No Gays) frequently declaims about Those Awful Other Guys from the Moral High Ground, with no embarassment about their own obvious incidents of moral failure. The hypocrisy of it becomes more than a bit much, even when the moral positions declaimed might, in some cases, be ones I also think are important.

Second, though I have a lot of sympathy for the position that integrity is integrity ... it's also simply true that there are limits to this position. Martin Luther King had some blemishes in his private life, as did Gandhi. Both, as I understand it, regarding their attitudes or behaviours towards women. Yet each was a mountain of integrity in other aspects of life.

I think that there is a certain amount of compartmentalization that happens, even though the goal is to have consistent integrity throughout the private and public aspects of one's life. It is indeed possible to both achieve great and moral things, and at the same time to be venal and immoral in others. It's an unsavory and paradoxical element of being human - however much we work for, and attempt to bring those things in line with each other.

S.V. Airlie
12-08-2010, 09:26 AM
Geez.. we all know why he was probably really arrested. Just have to have an obscure law to nail him. Until they can get the real dirt of him through other means. First job was to get him off the streets and accomplished by I think not having him get bail.

Allison
12-08-2010, 09:26 AM
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/08/3088461.htm

Australian Minister of Foreign affairs and former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has said that Assange has done nothing wrong. That he's only done what any other journalist would've done in the circumstances. The previous Prime Minister, a Right wing lap dog of Bush says exactly the same thing!

S.V. Airlie
12-08-2010, 09:29 AM
Bush is gone. This is now an Obama issue. Bush is no longer in office. It is Obama.

TomF
12-08-2010, 09:35 AM
Bush is gone. This is now an Obama issue. Bush is no longer in office. It is Obama.True. And we're watching.

The maddening thing is that when 2012 comes 'round, if progressives feel that Obama hasn't measured up ... on issues like this he'll have not measured up because he'd have acted too much like the other guys. There's not going to be a viable alternative.

S.V. Airlie
12-08-2010, 09:46 AM
I wonder whether FDR spent two years blaming Hoover or did he get on with the job at hand?

TomF
12-08-2010, 09:54 AM
I wonder whether FDR spent two years blaming Hoover or did he get on with the job at hand?I dunno - but there are probably speeches out there, if you're curious enough.

I don't see that Obama's been precisely idle, however much he's (accurately) tried to keep perspective on when the problems he's tried to address originated. And however much his opponents have tried to keep him idle, and blame him for things which were not his.

S.V. Airlie
12-08-2010, 10:01 AM
I'm sure he campaigned fighting or discussing Hoover's approach as they had different ideologies but I also sense.. not sure ) that once he took office HE TOOK OFFICE.

Y Bar Ranch
12-08-2010, 10:13 AM
If I might,

I often get irritated that the Right (not necessarily you, Y Bar, but the party of Jesus/Guns/Babies/No Gays) frequently declaims about Those Awful Other Guys from the Moral High Ground, with no embarassment about their own obvious incidents of moral failure.

There's a saying that the right thinks they're more moral and they aren't, while the left thinks they're smarter and they aren't.


Second, though I have a lot of sympathy for the position that integrity is integrity ... it's also simply true that there are limits to this position. Martin Luther King had some blemishes in his private life, as did Gandhi. Both, as I understand it, regarding their attitudes or behaviours towards women. Yet each was a mountain of integrity in other aspects of life.
We are the Crooked Timber of Humanity indeed.

From a clearance standpoint, there is a lot of data correlating lack of integrity in personal relations with a willingness to violate a sworn oath. The argument that one of the Swedish women is a CIA honeytrap just supports the notion that Assange's personal issues and wikileaks are interwoven. He's easily targetable due to his lack of impulse control. Amateur hour.

I'd love to see the internal wikileaks emails going on right now. Hey! Openness and transparency! Good for the goose...good for the gander.

peter radclyffe
12-08-2010, 12:52 PM
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/assange-to-escape-from-police-at-the-top-of-some-stairs-201012073327/

paladin
12-08-2010, 01:06 PM
From a clearance standpoint, there is a lot of data correlating lack of integrity in personal relations with a willingness to violate a sworn oath. The argument that one of the Swedish women is a CIA honeytrap just supports the notion that Assange's personal issues and wikileaks are interwoven. He's easily targetable due to his lack of impulse control. Amateur hour.



She's called a "swallow"....

donald branscom
12-08-2010, 01:41 PM
The warrant's recent then. Last night, the news report I'd heard said it didn't exist.

Interesting that as I understand it, he's wanted for questioning regarding a sexual offence which doesn't exist anywhere except in Sweden, and the chief prosecutor who originally looked at the case threw it out.

He does not own Wikileaks anyway.

They just want to get custody of him long enough to plant a chip in him to keep track of him. Thats all.

Can't say some things here.

nw_noob
12-08-2010, 03:46 PM
They just want to get custody of him long enough to plant a chip in him to keep track of him. Thats all.


Does either the U.K. or Sweden chip their convicted criminals?

JimJ
12-08-2010, 07:23 PM
They just want to get custody of him long enough to plant a chip in him to keep track of him.

Come on get a life. I some bloke had his brains between his legs, that is his problem and he alone has to deal with it.

George Jung
12-08-2010, 10:50 PM
Gemma Lindfield, representing the Swedish authorities, told the court he was wanted in connection with four allegations.
The first complainant, a Miss A, said she was the victim of "unlawful coercion" on the night of 14 August in Stockholm. The court heard Assange was alleged to have "forcefully" held her arms and used his bodyweight to hold her down. The second charge alleged he "sexually molested" her by having sex without using a condom, when it was her "express wish" that one should be used.
A third charge claimed Assange "deliberately molested" Miss A on 18 August.
A fourth charge, relating to a Miss W, alleged that on 17 August, he "improperly exploited" the fact she was asleep to have sex with her without a condom.




Is this in error, or is Miss A a bit of a slow learner?

Set-up all the way.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-09-2010, 12:49 AM
I was intrigued to learn that a British citizen wanted for murder in South AFrica was initially offfered bail (until South Africa ccomplained) but Assange was refused bail despite many people going surety for him.

I think there will be a reaction to what will be seen as US influence, here.

Glen Longino
12-09-2010, 12:51 AM
Miss A is a lying sack of green shyte!
Miss W is a sleepy sack of green shyte!

Allison
12-09-2010, 01:00 AM
Miss A is a lying sack of green shyte!
Miss W is a sleepy sack of green shyte!

Glen, while I may have some very strong reservations about the whole assault case, one's that you obviously share, I really don't feel that's appropriate.
Wouldn't it be better to wait till it's been tested in court. It may well turn out to be very different from what's being spread by both sides.
I'm sorry if that's a problem for you but I have a few issues with people bagging women who've been assaulted. Time will tell.

George Jung
12-09-2010, 01:03 AM
Agreed, but....

how is it Miss A was assaulted on two different occasions?

Allison
12-09-2010, 01:08 AM
George,
There's been lots of stuff about the Swedish sexual assault law that covers unprotected sex, presumably it's to do with that, we won't know till it goes to court!

Just because someone has been assaulted on more than one ocassion doesn't make them liars. It's common in spousal or familial abuse especially with younger women or children but that is not the situation here. There could be several reasons, none of them sinister.

Glen Longino
12-09-2010, 01:21 AM
Miss A is a lying sack of green shyte!
Miss W is a sleepy sack of green shyte!

Glen, while I may have some very strong reservations about the whole assault case, one's that you obviously share, I really don't feel that's appropriate.
Wouldn't it be better to wait till it's been tested in court. It may well turn out to be very different from what's being spread by both sides.
I'm sorry if that's a problem for you but I have a few issues with people bagging women who've been assaulted. Time will tell.

My own judgements in these cases have invariably been more appropriate than the courts.
I have no problem with that.
At the same time, I very much dislike women who get themselves assaulted.
I could tell you stories. And I know you could tell me stories.
Of course, we must wait for the grinding, interminable wheels of justice to turn before we make our judgements.

Lucky Luke
12-09-2010, 01:26 AM
Is this in error, or is Miss A a bit of a slow learner?

Set-up all the way.

She should not be a slow learner, look: she's a professional! .....Do I read properly : "fore-skin assistant"..????????:D

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_0xcIyOdjQfE/TH9dL9WITSI/AAAAAAAAA4Y/MBBr8Bs-vjQ/s1600/500x_annaardin.jpg

Lucky Luke
12-09-2010, 01:38 AM
She's called a "swallow"....

No, that was Monica Lewinsky!

Allison
12-09-2010, 01:39 AM
My own judgements in these cases have invariably been more appropriate than the courts.
I have no problem with that.

Really, that's interesting!

" I very much dislike women who get themselves assaulted."

This sort of statement is something that I need to walk away from or take a deep breath before I reply.

You clearly have NO idea what you are talking about.

In a tiny minority of cases women make false accusations but regardless of what any guy thinks that word NO , it actually means NO!
Consent can only be given if both parties are capable of giving consent, not drunk, not asleep, not stoned and not intimidated by force or circumstance. Anything other than informed consent is rape!
Consent can be withdrawn at anytime during the act, to continue is rape!

Glen, please think about this.

Women DO NOT GET THEMSELVES ASSAULTED in any way.
That's not possible!
Men assault women!

Glen Longino
12-09-2010, 01:40 AM
Botebum would hit it!;)

Allison
12-09-2010, 01:42 AM
Luke at least your 2 posts have some humour to them!

Lucky Luke
12-09-2010, 01:45 AM
...how is it Miss A was assaulted on two different occasions?

It's called "consensual repetitive sexual assault" (or masochism, perhaps?)....

Phillip Allen
12-09-2010, 01:49 AM
My own judgements in these cases have invariably been more appropriate than the courts.
I have no problem with that.

Really, that's interesting!

" I very much dislike women who get themselves assaulted."

This sort of statement is something that I need to walk away from or take a deep breath before I reply.

You clearly have NO idea what you are talking about.

In a tiny minority of cases women make false accusations but regardless of what any guy thinks that word NO , it actually means NO!
Consent can only be given if both parties are capable of giving consent, not drunk, not asleep, not stoned and not intimidated by force or circumstance. Anything other than informed consent is rape!
Consent can be withdrawn at anytime during the act, to continue is rape!

Glen, please think about this.

Women DO NOT GET THEMSELVES ASSAULTED in any way.
That's not possible!
Men assault women!

Hey...I've been assaulted by a woman...it was HORRIBLE
"Gimme that...wait here"

Lucky Luke
12-09-2010, 01:50 AM
Luke at least your 2 posts have some humor to them!

We need some, Allison, in such an otherwise saddening story!!! :(

WX
12-09-2010, 01:51 AM
it looks like the support for Assange is gaining momentum.
Andrew Wilke has accused PM Gillard of denying Assange of his legal rights.
Also Rudd blames the US for the leaked documents not Assange.


Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd says the United States, not WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, is to blame for the release of secret diplomatic cables.
Mr Rudd says the 39-year-old Australian cannot be held personally responsible for the release of more than 250,000 documents.
He says the leaks raise questions about the adequacy of US security.
"Mr Assange is not himself responsible for the unauthorised release of 250,000 documents from the US diplomatic communications network," said Mr Rudd, who has been criticised in one leaked cable as a "control freak".
"The Americans are responsible for that."
Mr Rudd appears to be in agreement with former prime minister John Howard, who earlier today said Mr Assange had not done anything wrong by publishing cables that contained "frank commentary".
"Any journalist will publish confidential information if he or she gets hold of it, subject only to compelling national security interests," Mr Howard said.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/12/08/3088461.htm

Allison
12-09-2010, 01:57 AM
Luke, I've said it repeatedly that i think the whole thing is very suspect but if he's guilty then he needs to suffer the consequences but till that's been established i don't think it's right to be attacking the women!
Some humour is fine, as you say it's not the best situation.
At best these 2 women were stupid, at worst it's all a big set up but till it's been to court anything other than lighthearted joking is wrong.
Glen's posts are clearly not meant in that way at all

Allison
12-09-2010, 02:00 AM
Hi Gary,
I wondered how long before Wilkie would have a go at the govt. about it all.
I posted about Rudd last night here and Oz Pol. but the more times its mentioned maybe some of the right wing will see it!
Still getting soaked?

WX
12-09-2010, 02:00 AM
One of the women has stopped " co-operating with the police according to the ABC news.
A number of prominent women and women's groups are all expressing support for him...heard on Radio National this arvo.

Glen Longino
12-09-2010, 02:02 AM
My own judgements in these cases have invariably been more appropriate than the courts.
I have no problem with that.

Really, that's interesting!

" I very much dislike women who get themselves assaulted."

This sort of statement is something that I need to walk away from or take a deep breath before I reply.

You clearly have NO idea what you are talking about.

In a tiny minority of cases women make false accusations but regardless of what any guy thinks that word NO , it actually means NO!
Consent can only be given if both parties are capable of giving consent, not drunk, not asleep, not stoned and not intimidated by force or circumstance. Anything other than informed consent is rape!
Consent can be withdrawn at anytime during the act, to continue is rape!

Glen, please think about this.

Women DO NOT GET THEMSELVES ASSAULTED in any way.
That's not possible!
Men assault women!

You're preaching to the choir, Allison!
I lost count long ago of the women who have told me their experiences of being assaulted due to their own ignorance and naivete and trust in an untrustworthy scumbag who they barely knew but went to dinner with.

"Men assault women!"
Some men assault some women!
No man assaults a woman who has the good sense not to be alone with the scumbag.
I dislike abuse of women as much as you do, but needy women who blithely put themselves in harms way for a dinner or a drink must accept some responsibility for themselves, don't you think?
Allison, please think about this! And tell all your female friends.

WX
12-09-2010, 02:05 AM
Positively drought conditions today, not a bit of rain in sight, lots of cloud though. Rain again tomorrow and back to normal.

Allison
12-09-2010, 02:05 AM
One of the women has stopped " co-operating with the police according to the ABC news.

That's good to hear, so long as its not because she's been pressured!
If Luke can post her ID card from the Uni. she works at here, I'm sure that things are being plastered everywhere about her and that's not right!

WX
12-09-2010, 02:08 AM
You're preaching to the choir, Allison!
I lost count long ago of the women who have told me their experiences of being assaulted due to their own ignorance and naivete and trust in an untrustworthy scumbag who they barely knew but went to dinner with.

"Men assault women!"
Some men assault some women!
No man assaults a woman who has the good sense not to be alone with the scumbag.
I dislike abuse of women as much as you do, but needy women who blithely put themselves in harms way for a dinner or a drink must accept some responsibility for themselves, don't you think?
Allison, please think about this! And tell all your female friends.
Glen, you don't think perhaps that the men who do attack these women are more deserving the label of scumbag than their victims?

Allison
12-09-2010, 02:11 AM
Glen, buying some woman dinner doesn't entitle any man to sex. A million dollars offered still doesn't entitle them if the woman says NO. That's the bottom line.
You can be in the middle of it all and No still means No.

I lost count long ago of the women who have told me their experiences of being assaulted due to their own ignorance and naivete and trust

They were assaulted, that's all that matters!
I'll say it again, unless free and informed consent is given it is rape!
It's got nothing to do with having the good sense or not. Is it not rape if the woman is mentally impaired in some way? I would've thought that made the crime even worse!!

The Bigfella
12-09-2010, 02:16 AM
W got busted repeatedly for drink driving and cocaine, got his record expunged totally and went on to be Governor of Texas and President! Just a little more involved than the school administrator!
W ordered torture, that is illegal under US and International Law. We had this whole debate a while back. DTC quoted the relevant sections of US law and the International treaties. I could spend a bit of time listing them but why bother talking to a brick wall when I can finish watching my movie.
Goodnight Sir!

Gee.... what an amazing record of convictions he has. You wouldn't make those comments without proof would you? Viz:


Miss A is a lying sack of green shyte!
Miss W is a sleepy sack of green shyte!

Glen, while I may have some very strong reservations about the whole assault case, one's that you obviously share, I really don't feel that's appropriate.
Wouldn't it be better to wait till it's been tested in court. It may well turn out to be very different from what's being spread by both sides.
I'm sorry if that's a problem for you but I have a few issues with people bagging women who've been assaulted. Time will tell.


Luke, I've said it repeatedly that i think the whole thing is very suspect but if he's guilty then he needs to suffer the consequences but till that's been established i don't think it's right to be attacking the women!
Some humour is fine, as you say it's not the best situation.
At best these 2 women were stupid, at worst it's all a big set up but till it's been to court anything other than lighthearted joking is wrong.
Glen's posts are clearly not meant in that way at all

So, just who can we attack with random accusations, and who do we have to wait for the courts to convict?

Prez W is OK to attack, but Ms A and Ms W aren't?

Glen Longino
12-09-2010, 02:20 AM
Well, go for it then!
Encourage all your women friends to go alone with whomever stranger invites them.
And when they get raped tell them that it's not right and they did not deserve it and the guy who did it is a criminal.
See if that makes your friends feel better.
I can tell you right now, it will not make them feel better.

WX
12-09-2010, 02:21 AM
As I said, one of them is having 2nd thoughts. maybe the money she was offered to accuse him just isn't worth it.

Phillip Allen
12-09-2010, 02:22 AM
One of the women has stopped " co-operating with the police according to the ABC news.

That's good to hear, so long as its not because she's been pressured!
If Luke can post her ID card from the Uni. she works at here, I'm sure that things are being plastered everywhere about her and that's not right!

I wondered about that...

WX
12-09-2010, 02:23 AM
Well, go for it then!
Encourage all your women friends to go alone with whomever stranger invites them.
And when they get raped tell them that it's not right and they did not deserve it and the guy who did it is a criminal.
See if that makes your friends feel better.
I can tell you right now, it will not make them feel better.
Might help if he gets convicted and spends a bit of time as someone's girl behind bars.

JimJ
12-09-2010, 02:33 AM
"The Americans are responsible for that."

That is like saying that if someone breaks into my house and steals my will I am at fault!!

Weird logic

Allison
12-09-2010, 02:37 AM
Glen,
There is no way I said that and you know it!
Please don't try to distort what I've said, we are able to have this conversation because we are both treating it in a serious way and I respect the concern that you are clearly showing for women in your recent posts.
The first couple that I reacted to were a little more confrontational.

What I've said over several posts now is that guys, other than the seriously creepy deviants around, I mean "normal" guys, often wind up in these situations because they don't accept that there is never a case where they can ignore the woman saying NO. There has to be consent.
There is so much date rape, rape within relationships and marriages that is not reported. But the overwhelming percentage of rapes occur in those situations not in the scenario that you outline of a vulnerable girl and a creepy predator. That's actually the minority of cases!

I think your concern is very positiveBY:D

Glen Longino
12-09-2010, 02:41 AM
Glen, you don't think perhaps that the men who do attack these women are more deserving the label of scumbag than their victims?
Why yes, I do!
That's why I said the woman is alone "with the scumbag".
My point was that women should be very careful who they are alone with.
If she ain't there, she won't get raped.
In no way am I excusing rapists..

Allison
12-09-2010, 02:45 AM
In no way am I excusing rapists, a fact that Allison seems unable to accept.

we are able to have this conversation because we are both treating it in a serious way and I respect the concern that you are clearly showing for women in your recent posts.

I think your concern is very positive

Glen is there a problem in what I've written?

Allison
12-09-2010, 02:54 AM
If she ain't there, she won't get raped.

Glen, women's rape awareness groups focus on the need to be aware of situations but your statement is simplistic at best and moving towards blaming the victim at worst.
How do you account for the fact that there is so much rape in marriages and relationships? A simple formula like yours doesn't account for all those situations.

Glen Longino
12-09-2010, 02:56 AM
In no way am I excusing rapists, a fact that Allison seems unable to accept.

we are able to have this conversation because we are both treating it in a serious way and I respect the concern that you are clearly showing for women in your recent posts.

I think your concern is very positive

Glen is there a problem in what I've written?

No problem at all.:)
When I saw your last post I went back and edited my previous post so as not to be so confrontational.
Our views on abuse of women are more similar than they are different.
Maybe I'm more biased toward women protecting themselves beforehand than trying to prove they were raped, after the fact.
Cheers!
It's late night out here on the Great Plains. I'll see you tomorrow. Adios!

Allison
12-09-2010, 03:00 AM
Goodnight Sir, talk again!

LeeG
12-09-2010, 03:31 AM
Glen, there appears to me a logical problem with your admonition to women, it requires the violation to occur in order for the determination of "scumbag" or unworthiness to be applied. At what point in the process of a woman and man moving towards intimacy can you judge the womans decision making?

Allison
12-09-2010, 04:18 AM
I feel a bit wrong about the fact that every time I have opened up this page I am struck first by the picture of one of these women complete with her email address and mobile phone number. I'm sure that has all been plastered all over the internet by now.
The degree that these 2 women have been exposed to the media and the world if they were in fact victims of sexual assault is a bit distressing. I know that there is a lot of doubt about the facts and I share that doubt and about their motivation but to me this is obviously very dangerous for these women.
It would be terrible if their story is true and they retracted it because of all the attention and pressure that they have received.
The whole issue of women and their safety being sacrificed to placate the pressure from supporters of a media star like Assange has been turned into is scary. It has happened a lot over the years, we are quick to forgive the "hero" and blame the victim. I hope this is not the case here

The549
12-09-2010, 05:19 AM
my opinion of the leak is evolving....i think it will be more better than worse. it was selfish and irresponsible.

but huuUUuuge smile hearing about visa and mastercard being hacked. finally the confused anarchists start to bring some actual target into view

WX
12-09-2010, 05:47 AM
That is like saying that if someone breaks into my house and steals my will I am at fault!!

Weird logic
Not at all. It was a US citizen that copied the files and had the required security clearance to do so. Wikileaks did not steal the files. Wikileaks has done no more any other reputable media outlet would have done.
Given some of the attitudes expressed here and elsewhere Nixon would never have been brought to task over Watergate.
BTW Don't you have hate crime laws in the US? How come Palin can say that a person should be assassinated and not be charged with inciting violence?

Lucky Luke
12-09-2010, 07:05 AM
Hi all,

I have been gently asked by one forum member here, who I hold in high esteem, to remove the picture of the University ID card of Ms. Anna Ardin.

I do not very often - quite rarely in fact - enter discussions in "the bilge", as might have been noticed, but just could not miss this one when having a quick look at "what's new": it seems to be the most active discussion down there, at the moment. I am not terribly excited about this subject, though. It seems to have been journalist's bread a butter for a few days, and we can be sure it's going to die pretty soon! Effectively, if some of the "leaks" are quite embarrassing for a few diplomats (who were stupid enough to put these opinions in writing!), all these discussions will soon be shadowed by much more important matters.

One thing, however, caught my attention: this was the discussion about these two women. The "official" reason for keeping J. Assange in detention is effectively these allegations by these two women, although the "Assange" case, we all understand, is of deeper concerns!

I do have, of course, highest respect for women as persons in general, and would not defend a man who had would it be improper behavior with woman. The thing is that these two women have made very public their accusations, are not shy of interviews nor of details of the (short!) relationship they had with J. Assange, and moreover of their jealousy, mostly Ms. A.A., when J. Assange went out with another girl just a couple of days after she had been shagged (apparently, it's the right word). Men and women alike do not appreciate this sort of thing, but to expose a man, already in the collimator of the CIA and their siblings, to extremely heavy sentence for this insignificant reasons is not in their honor....and when I say "for this reason", I mean that I hope there are not darker ones!

By their past and present action, they have made themselves public. The picture I posted on the WBF is in top position on Google search. It is all over the web, and they definitely - in my opinion - bear entire responsibility of their actions...sleeping with a high profile man like J. Assange having been the first one. I am afraid that, if one retracts her allegations, this is not because she realizes how uncomfortable it has become to be so much exposed, but because she will have received direct threats. This, I do not wish to either of them, but, since this has been asked to me: should I remove a picture that is all over the web, just to make this woman less exposed: I think it will change nothing. This University ID card (real? fake?) gives general information about the University itself, but not the personal ones like address, phone number, and even the E-mail address in the University one.

Your opinions, gentlemen?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-09-2010, 07:16 AM
Certainly there are a good crop of photos of this lady to be found on the Web; I just typed her name into Google and got a dozen or so.

I also came across what was described as a Swedish male chauvinist joke - "Don't mess with Swedish women unless you have written permission!"

Allison
12-09-2010, 07:29 AM
Your opinions, gentlemen?
I don't get to have an opinion Luke?|;)

I'm going to be rude and assume that you were just using a figure of speech, so I'm going to have an opinion. I posted above that I felt it was a bit wrong to have the image there. I'm troubled a bit by the image but I was most troubled by what I assumed were the woman's personal details but Luke has informed us that they are just those of the Uni, so that removes a concern for me. The image itself has been made very public and though I personally feel that is unfortunate in such cases it does appear that neither woman has made any attempt to be discreet at all so it would be hard to argue that it is an invasion of privacy. I'm still uncomfortable but that is a personal reaction to those sorts of crimes and not to this particular image, so I wouldn't push for it being removed.
I feel the whole thing is unfortunate and the publicity itself is something I fear both women will come to regret greatly if they don't already, especially if their allegations are true and they are pressured into withdrawing them but even more so if they are proven false. That would earn a great deal of contempt for women in a similar position and that would be terrible, a really disgraceful thing for them to have been part of.
I appreciate your asking for people's opinions Luke.
I hope I wasn't an interloperBY:D

The Bigfella
12-09-2010, 07:30 AM
I came across her 7 steps for revenge from a blog of hers earlier this year. Rather revealing, if it is true.

Y Bar Ranch
12-09-2010, 08:12 AM
Your opinions, gentlemen?
I'd pull the pix. They haven't made public their accusations at all. They made them to the authorities. In theory we shouldn't even know who she is.

Allison
12-09-2010, 08:16 AM
They haven't made public their accusations at all

Hi Chomsky!
apparently the Swedish prosecutors routinely make the info. available to the press, a bit strange by our standards but according to several places that is regular practice in Sweden. The link on this thread had quotes from the Swedish press.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-09-2010, 09:25 AM
I just turned up a list of nations with the most rape allegations per 100,000 people.

Here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11946652

It was quite a surprise to me - either the UK either has many more rapists than other nations (which I take leave to doubt) or our Police Forces are less hostile to rape complainants than I had supposed. But I was struck by the presence of four Scandinavian nations in the other top five slots.

Assange is Australian, and I seem to recollect that an "Australian Rules" party is proverbially one with all the blokes at one end of the room and all the sheilas at the other.

Phillip Allen
12-09-2010, 09:39 AM
I don't know that the list is bogus but I believe Armenia qualifies as bogus...complaining of rape in that country is likely to net some gal an Honor killing....I suspect that influences the "reporting"

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-09-2010, 09:43 AM
I'm very sure that you are right about that, Philip. But I do suspect that a combination of jet lag, sudden adulation and cultural differences played a part.

downthecreek
12-09-2010, 11:27 AM
My point was that women should be very careful who they are alone with.
If she ain't there, she won't get raped.
In no way am I excusing rapists..

Seems fair enough to me.

If a woman places herself in situation where she could reasonably be expected to know that there are significant risks involved and those risks materialise in the form of assault or rape, then both parties are culpable and deserving of censure.

The woman is guilty of thoughtlessness and irresponsibility, which are not crimes, and the man is guilty of assault or rape, which are.

Where it all goes pear shaped is the notion (quite popular with male judges, I'm afraid) that the thoughtlessness and irresponsibility of the woman somehow lessens the culpability of the man for the crimes he has committed.

If I thoughtlessly leave an accessible window open in my house I'm a careless fool, but the burglar who takes advantage of my carelessness is no less culpable or more derving of leniency than the one who picks the lock or breaks down the door (except, possibly, in respect of the issue of criminal damage in addition to theft)

George Jung
12-09-2010, 12:56 PM
Not at all. It was a US citizen that copied the files and had the required security clearance to do so. Wikileaks did not steal the files. Wikileaks has done no more any other reputable media outlet would have done.


Time magazine had several articles on this topic. Not to derail the direction this thread has gone (in summary, perhaps these womens complaints are being used to nail Assange, perhaps not... he may be a scuzzy; the women may be culpable and employed as 'tools' in this instance... time will tell?) but Gary pretty much sums up where this went wrong, in the first place. A declassifying/open exchange of sensitive material; a change in policy to allow this material to be downloaded; a joke of a clearance system, allowing an incredibly large number of people access, and the ability to classify info as 'secret', wherein everything was so classified, and in doing, none of it was.

My take - based only on what I've heard to date - is that Assange is squarely in the crosshairs, for having embarrassed the US and others, and perhaps these complaints from these women is the leverage being used to shut him down. Subject to change as info comes in.

One last point - An editorial by Fareed Zacharia was interesting and insightful. His take - the wikileaks has actually provided comfort/confidence in the allies diplomacy, in that by the info gleaned to date from the 'leaks', it appears we're pursuing the same policy we've pulblicly espoused, in contradistinction to, say, the Pentagon Papers. He sees this as potentially a good thing - transparency, and an opportunity for countries such as Iran to see in what regard they're actually held, contrary to their own perceptions. Embarrassing, but overall, a positive. Getting humbled can be a positive experience.

George Jung
12-09-2010, 02:47 PM
Just caught this in the NYTimes - Europes perceptions, apparently.



PARIS — The United States considers itself a shining beacon of democracy and openness, but for many Europeans Washington’s fierce reaction to the flood of secret diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/w/wikileaks/index.html?inline=nyt-org) displays imperial arrogance and hypocrisy, indicating a post-9/11 obsession with secrecy that contradicts American principles.
While the Obama Administration has done nothing in the courts to block the publication of any of the leaked documents, or even, as of yet, tried to indict WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/a/julian_p_assange/index.html?inline=nyt-per) for any crime, American officials and politicians have been widely condemned in the European news media for calling the leaks everything from “terrorism” (Rep. Peter T. King, Rep.-New York) to “an attack against the international community” (Secretary of State Hillary Clinton (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/c/hillary_rodham_clinton/index.html?inline=nyt-per)). Secretary of Defense Robert M. Gates (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/robert_m_gates/index.html?inline=nyt-per) called the arrest of Mr. Assange on separate rape charges “good news,” while Sarah Palin (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/p/sarah_palin/index.html?inline=nyt-per) called for him to be hunted as an “anti-American operative with blood on his hands” and Mike Huckabee (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/mike_huckabee/index.html?inline=nyt-per), the former Arkansas governor and Republican presidential candidate, said that he should be executed.




There's more here : http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/world/europe/10wikileaks-react.html?hp

A few British commentators:


For Seumas Milne (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/dec/01/wikileaks-embassy-cables-us-global-power) of The Guardian in London, which has shared the latest WikiLeaks trove with The New York Times, the official American reaction “is tipping over towards derangement.” Most of the leaks are of low-level diplomatic cables, he noted, while concluding: “Not much truck with freedom of information, then, in the land of the free.”
John Naughton (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2010/dec/06/western-democracies-must-live-with-leaks), writing in the same British paper, decried the attack on the openness of the Internet and the pressure on companies like Amazon and eBay to evict the WikiLeaks site. “The response has been vicious, coordinated and potentially comprehensive,” he said, and presents a “delicious irony” that “it is now the so-called liberal democracies that are clamoring to shut WikiLeaks down.”
A year ago, he noted, Mrs. Clinton made a major speech about Internet freedom, interpreted as a rebuke to China’s cyber-attack on Google. “Even in authoritarian countries, information networks are helping people to discover new facts and making governments more accountable.” To Mr. Naughton now, “that Clinton speech reads like a satirical masterpiece.”


I know most despise the C & P. Sorry - more a point of interest.

TomF
12-09-2010, 02:49 PM
Thanks for that, George.

The Bigfella
12-09-2010, 03:57 PM
Yes, there's been some rather soviet style responses from the US on this one.

Since conspiracy theories seem popular around here:

Interesting conspiracy tidbits on the Swedish “rape” charges -
1. The original prosecutor in charge, Eva Finné, dropped the charges the same week they were made and stated they were groundless.
2. The two women who accused, Anna Ardin and Sofia Wilen, Assange know each other.
3. Eva Finné was removed from the case by Claes Borgström and a new prosecutor, Marianne Ny, was appointed. Her first act was to reinstate the charges.
4. Claes Borgström is a former politician. His law partner is Thomas Bodström. Thomas Bodström is Sweden’s former Minister of Justice.
5. Thomas Bodström is currently in the USA. One could assume he is communicating and coordinating things with his partner back in Sweden.
6. It is Swedish protocol not to release the names of people accused of rape until after a conviction. The Swedish prosecutors office claims they have “no idea” how Assange’s name was leaked.
7. Normally Swedish media will not publish an accused’s name until after a conviction. Swedish media is controlled by a single ruling class family named Bonnier who work closely with local politicians to protect their media monopoly.
8. Claes Borgström’s two sisters, Annette Kullenberg and Kerstin Vinterhed, both work for Bonnier family newspapers.
9. Anna Ardin and Thomas Bodström are high ranking members of the right wing political Christian organization “Socialdemokrat-Brödraskapet”.
10. Claes Borgström is a right wing politician whose push for larger big brother powers for the Swedish state were leaked by Wikileaks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bodstr%C3%B6m
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claes_Borgstr%C3%B6m
http://www.aklagare.se/Media/Nyheter/Assange-arendet-fragor-och-svar/
(In Swedish – the Swedish justice department says they did not release Assange’s name and try to explain why Eva Finné was removed)
http://henrikalexandersson.blogspot.com/2010/08/assange-affaren-far-en-inrikespolitisk.html
(In Swedish – a Swedish blogger traces the reasons for Ardin, Borgström, and Bodström’s apparent vendetta against Wikileaks and Assange)

http://www.anorak.co.uk/256861/media/julian-assange-loses-his-cool-to-rape-victim-anna-ardin-wilikleaks-is-scooped.html

Allison
12-09-2010, 03:58 PM
“Even in authoritarian countries, information networks are helping people to discover new facts and making governments more accountable.”

Unfortunately neither those clamouring for Assange's death or imprisonment would see any hypocrisy at all in that statement and their present position.
"But, but, but.... we're special!!! We're the good guys!"
Of corse they are. But the good guys don't get to break the rules either, especially if they wrote them!

The Bigfella
12-09-2010, 04:11 PM
There's an interesting excerpt from the Crikey article that reports Ardin has stopped co-operating:



Even if the case comes to trial, the prospects of conviction look slim. Crikey asked Flinders University s-x crime law expert Dr Mary Heath to go over the charges (which may still be accusations at this stage) as they were relayed in Assange’s extradition bail hearing, and she made the following comments:

“Practically speaking, I would not like the chances of the prosecutor on charge 3 — pressing his erect p-nis into the complainant’s back … legally speaking I would have to suggest the chances of conviction would be slim for any Australian offence where both accused were adults. Proving non consent might be difficult but proving awareness of non consent would be even harder.

“Charges 1 and 2 (holding partner down, and unsafe s-x despite earlier expressed opposition to such) involve contexts where there would be room for defence argument about consent. On charge 1, when is one person ‘holding down’ another person lying beneath them, and when are they simply having consensual s-x in a position involving one person being on top of the other person? Is this force or just rough but consensual (compared to cases I’ve read, the allegation would hardly count as rough).

“On charge 2, prior unwillingness is not enough, the complainant must not be consenting and the accused must be aware of this ‘at the time of int-rcourse’. Did complainant one change her mind? Did Assange believe she changed her mind, and perhaps on reasonable grounds the charge does not disclose?

“On charge 4 (s-x while complainant was sleeping), recent experience in South Australia suggests this also could be difficult to prove if there was any kind of s-xual interaction prior to the complainant falling asleep, which might give the defence a plausible argument that belief in consent was present. I was deeply unimpressed by the level of protection the courts (let alone public attitudes) offered to people who are asleep or unconscious due to drugs/alcohol.
“… The one thing that is clearer, perhaps, is that the charges may turn on withdrawal of consent once a s-xual act had commenced. The law of almost every jurisdiction in Australia would recognise withdrawal of consent after a s-xual act commenced as rendering that s-xual act non consensual (and therefore r-pe). As for proving it … I reiterate what I said about proof previously.”


http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/12/09/rundle-r-pe-case-complainant-has-left-sweden-may-have-ceased-co-operating/

I've been foreman of the jury on a rape case, and based on that experience and what I've read of this case, this guy would probably walk. The case I was involved with, there were witnesses to the act (a Minister of religion and a cop), there was physical evidence and more. The jury voted 2 guilty, 9 not-guilty and 1 abstained first time around. One woman even said "he didn't come, so he didn't rape her".... despite him hammering away for 30 minutes whilst she was screaming out "no, no, leave me alone" repeatedly. The court attendant was jumping with joy when we convicted this bloke (after two full days of intense deliberations) - and she said most juries would have said not guilty, packed up and gone home.

skuthorp
12-09-2010, 04:18 PM
Regardless of whether it's rape or not, Assange's biggest danger if extradited to Sweeden is either extradition to the US or rendition to another less clear destination where guilt or not is not relevant.

Allison
12-09-2010, 04:24 PM
Skuthorp, they are busy trying to arrange that right now!
Assange is going to fight extradition on that point, among others.

Y Bar Ranch
12-09-2010, 04:33 PM
“Practically speaking, I would not like the chances of the prosecutor on charge 3 — pressing his erect p-nis into the complainant’s back …ETC. ETC

http://hville.hostzi.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/cateatingpopcorn.gif

HAHAHA!!! This is going to be the gift that keeps on giving. Eventually other women will come out with stories. It'll be like Tiger Woods, a frenzy of hot leftist radical feminist hacker babes arguing about who better satisfied their Leaker of Love.

I'm just going to sit in my rocking chair eaten' popcorn and laughing. BY:DBY:DBY:D

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-09-2010, 04:42 PM
I don't think Assange is going to be extradited to Sweden. His case, like Pinochet's, will be appealed to the Supreme Court and our Lords Justices of Appeal in Ordinary will refuse extradition even on a Eurowarrant where the evidence is so weak. He has a tremendous head of steam building up in support of him here, as witness the names coming forward to stand surety for his bail, none of whom have ever met him.

As I said earlier, sauce for the Chilean right wing dictator, whom they refused to send to Spain, will be sauce for the Australian computer hacker.

The Bigfella
12-09-2010, 05:00 PM
I don't think Assange is going to be extradited to Sweden. His case, like Pinochet's, will be appealed to the Supreme Court and our Lords Justices of Appeal in Ordinary will refuse extradition even on a Eurowarrant where the evidence is so weak. He has a tremendous head of steam building up in support of him here.

He certainly had a head of something building up when he was in Sweden

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-09-2010, 05:14 PM
Telling a Red Judge what to do is never a good idea. Telling a very senior Red Judge what to do is a truly awful idea. And the default position of any Red Judge is, "I am a member of the Garrick Club."

JimJ
12-09-2010, 05:32 PM
Not at all. It was a US citizen that copied the files and had the required security clearance to do so. Wikileaks did not steal the files. Wikileaks has done no more any other reputable media outlet would have done.

It is still dealing in stolen goods - be they files or physical articles.

I was invloved in a situation where an employee, who was intending to purchase a business, removed a hard drive from a company computer, (he had lawful access to the computer) took it home and copied all the files relating to all the business' clients.

He then replaced the drive next day and quit. He and his partner then used the information to setup their own business.

A judge saw it for what it was - "stealing as a servant" as I recall. He was charged and convicted.

Stealing is stealing. It is the same as skimming credit card info and selling that info on the web.

The crime does not disappear because the stolen goods are passed on to a "media organisation". Just because jurnos reckon they have a "duty" to release stolen information and a "code" to keep sources secret does not make lawful.

The only reason punters put up with it is because it may stick it up someone they do not like, have a different political point of view or it is titillating.

WX
12-09-2010, 05:57 PM
It is still dealing in stolen goods - be they files or physical articles.

I was invloved in a situation where an employee, who was intending to purchase a business, removed a hard drive from a company computer, (he had lawful access to the computer) took it home and copied all the files relating to all the business' clients.

He then replaced the drive next day and quit. He and his partner then used the information to setup their own business.

A judge saw it for what it was - "stealing as a servant" as I recall. He was charged and convicted.

Stealing is stealing. It is the same as skimming credit card info and selling that info on the web.

The crime does not disappear because the stolen goods are passed on to a "media organisation". Just because jurnos reckon they have a "duty" to release stolen information and a "code" to keep sources secret does not make lawful.

The only reason punters put up with it is because it may stick it up someone they do not like, have a different political point of view or it is titillating.
So, let me get this straight, what you are saying is no journalist should be allowed to publish any information passed onto him/her without the consent of the originator of said information? An example here would be information leaked from a government dept, local council etc. Whistleblowers would by your reasoning become criminals.

George Jung
12-09-2010, 06:00 PM
As I recall, the Times article about this same issue noted that, by law, if wikileaks can find itself classified as a media outlet, it can, in fact, be held blameless. Don't shoot the messenger - just what I read. It could be wrong.

I saw a quote from Assange on the news this evening; in it, he indicated he's not interested in transparency, but instead, chaos, so that western nations are less able to work together, and hopes for a 'lockdown and balkanization', essentially rendering these countries impotent. The news also mentioned Soros was a major supporter for this organization. Is that true? He sure seems to pop up in these sorts of issues.

JimJ
12-09-2010, 07:35 PM
So, let me get this straight, what you are saying is no journalist should be allowed to publish any information passed onto him/her without the consent of the originator of said information? An example here would be information leaked from a government dept, local council etc.

Yes, that is my belief.

Where would you draw the line on what a jurno should or should not publish. Would it be ministerial briefs, departmental advice to the Govt, police wiretaps, drivers records, credit card details. It does not have to be specific to a Govt dept or organisation.

If the line is drawn anywhere, then it applies to all of it.

What about your medical records held by the health department?

What about your tax details held by the ATO?

What about your driving history held by the police?

Event though a person has legal access to information due to their employment, that does not give them the right to pass that information on to third parties. If third parties use that information, they are using stolen information.

My view, it does not matter if it is the media or a competitor in the same type of business, they are using stolen information.

WX
12-09-2010, 07:43 PM
Yes, that is my belief.

Where would you draw the line on what a jurno should or should not publish. Would it be ministerial briefs, departmental advice to the Govt, police wiretaps, drivers records, credit card details. It does not have to be specific to a Govt dept or organisation.

If the line is drawn anywhere, then it applies to all of it.

What about your medical records held by the health department?

What about your tax details held by the ATO?

What about your driving history held by the police?

Event though a person has legal access to information due to their employment, that does not give them the right to pass that information on to third parties. If third parties use that information, they are using stolen information.

My view, it does not matter if it is the media or a competitor in the same type of business, they are using stolen information.
Okay, by your rules the Fitzgerald Inquiry would never have happened because it was journalists (4 Corners) that exposed the level of corruption that was taking place in QLD.
I think there is a difference between exposing corruption and making public your medical records. I am happy to make the distinction anyway.

Gerarddm
12-09-2010, 07:52 PM
either extradition to the US or rendition to another less clear destination where guilt or not is not relevant.

Whether guilt is not relevant or not? Balderdash. You clearly haven't been studying US trial history. Or did you mean that it's in the 'less clear destination' that guilt may not be relevant?

I have heard nothing about Soros being involved with Wikileaks. You might as well say the Koch brothers.

Assange seems to have it in for the US, period. There is an honest debate on whether he and his organization broke various countries' secrets acts. We shall see. I get the impression that he feels all secrets are harmful, which is, of course, nonsense.

stevebaby
12-09-2010, 09:19 PM
It is still dealing in stolen goods - be they files or physical articles.

I was invloved in a situation where an employee, who was intending to purchase a business, removed a hard drive from a company computer, (he had lawful access to the computer) took it home and copied all the files relating to all the business' clients.

He then replaced the drive next day and quit. He and his partner then used the information to setup their own business.

A judge saw it for what it was - "stealing as a servant" as I recall. He was charged and convicted.

Stealing is stealing. It is the same as skimming credit card info and selling that info on the web.

The crime does not disappear because the stolen goods are passed on to a "media organisation". Just because jurnos reckon they have a "duty" to release stolen information and a "code" to keep sources secret does not make lawful.

The only reason punters put up with it is because it may stick it up someone they do not like, have a different political point of view or it is titillating.Information isn't real property. It's intellectual property. Unless Wikileaks has had physical possession of the drives containing that information,they have committed no theft .All they have done is relay that information,in the same way that the Grauniad and NYTimes have done.For a prosecution to succeed,it would have to be proved that specific electrons have been taken from lawful custody,which is impossible.
The employee in your example would have been charged with stealing the hard drive,not the information contained therein. He could have been sued in a civil action for damages however. I know of a similar example where an employee,intent on committing mischief against his emoloyer,committed a similar theft of a (paper) file. The only criminal offence that he could be charged with was theft of $1.50 worth of paper.The resultant civil suit bankrupted him though.

Allison
12-09-2010, 09:37 PM
Be interesting to see how they manage to get to him. Anything obvious and everyone is going to know it was those poor embarrassed pollies in US.

Phillip Allen
12-10-2010, 12:36 AM
Yes, that is my belief.

Where would you draw the line on what a jurno should or should not publish. Would it be ministerial briefs, departmental advice to the Govt, police wiretaps, drivers records, credit card details. It does not have to be specific to a Govt dept or organisation.

If the line is drawn anywhere, then it applies to all of it.

What about your medical records held by the health department?

What about your tax details held by the ATO?

What about your driving history held by the police?

Event though a person has legal access to information due to their employment, that does not give them the right to pass that information on to third parties. If third parties use that information, they are using stolen information.

My view, it does not matter if it is the media or a competitor in the same type of business, they are using stolen information.

what about Abu Grabe?

coelacanth2
12-10-2010, 01:07 AM
What does he think chaos will do for the Western world? Does he think that other world viewpoints are better? If he is trying to bring down the West, what will replace it?

purri
12-10-2010, 05:14 AM
^ disjunctive syllogism.

The Bigfella
12-10-2010, 05:20 AM
What chaos? He's just brought to our attention the hypocrisy that our governments are feeding to us. How about they live up to the ideals they espouse for once?

purri
12-10-2010, 05:34 AM
Interesting posts BF. (you caring understanding new type you)

But truthfully it's in context with the subject matter!

Allison
12-10-2010, 05:36 AM
Purri,
Don't hold your breath about it lasting too long!

purri
12-10-2010, 05:52 AM
True? BTW his DPCU rarely matches the intellectual environment.

Allison
12-10-2010, 06:20 AM
The real right wing nature will pop back out again in a few seconds.

peter radclyffe
12-10-2010, 06:31 AM
http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/12/09/us-still-demanding-extradition-of-royal-family/

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-10-2010, 07:11 AM
http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/12/09/us-still-demanding-extradition-of-royal-family/

:d!

Duncan Gibbs
12-10-2010, 07:13 AM
More from the Biscuit:

http://www.newsbiscuit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/364-assange-clinton.jpg


Wikileaks’ Assange ‘has a white cat he strokes evilly’ claims Clinton

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has revealed further evidence undermining the credibility of the founder of Wikileaks, Julian Assange, announcing that the controversial investigative journalist and former hacker has a new pet which he takes with him to important meetings. Harry, a soft Persian hairy white cat has been at the heart of the Wikileaks empire for the last three months and, according to the senior American politician, he hasn’t even been neutered.

Citing evidence including audio conversations, the occasional screenshot, and surreptitiously obtained planning requests backed up by photos found on Google Streetview, Clinton also said that the Pentagon had found clear evidence that Assange was taking advantage of liberal Swedish laws to build a secret underground lair demonstrating Wikileaks was a fundamental risk to democratic institutions such as the US Federal government.

The Secretary of State said the US was also concerned about small ads in the situations vacant column of local newspapers seeking applications from individuals interested in a career as a uniformed goon.

Clinton was adamant that the activities of Assange and his organisation were no trifling matter, and stressed that there was a very good chance the world would end if the sinister feline-fondling mastermind was allowed to carry out his dastardly plans for revealing to the international community that the US diplomatic service would find the Russians easier to deal with if Vladimir Putin wouldn’t insist on whipping his shirt off at every opportunity to reveal a chest ‘that isn’t all that’. She also warned of ‘grave consequences’ for everybody should it become public knowledge that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not at the top of President Obama’s Christmas card list.

The US Government has now upped the ante by saying they may activate one of their field agents currently in the vicinity of Mr Assange, who is believed to be living in a safe house in London. It is understood that the agent might have strange pointy shoes which could be lethal if directed in the right way. Names weren’t given, ‘for reasons of National security’, but early evidence suggests it might be Theresa May.

Phillip Allen
12-10-2010, 07:17 AM
http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2010/12/09/us-still-demanding-extradition-of-royal-family/

it would truly be a dull world without things like that

The Bigfella
12-10-2010, 04:15 PM
True? BTW his DPCU rarely matches the intellectual environment.


The real right wing nature will pop back out again in a few seconds.

Well look at that..... it must be play time at the kindergarten

Allison
12-10-2010, 05:36 PM
For those right wingers here that claim the Wikileaks cables are being vetted so that they are only releasing ones that are showing the US govt. in a bad light, how about these

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/drug-company-investigated-legal-chief-2156010.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/burma-building-nuclear-and-missile-sites-2156168.html

Not exactly harming US diplomacy are they?

WX
12-10-2010, 06:19 PM
OZ posters, steady now, I wouldn't want to see any of you kicked out of the sandbox.

Allison
12-10-2010, 06:27 PM
Hi Gary,
No danger of that, I'm not even aware of anybody in the sandbox that I'm interested enough in to have a real argt. with, there are only probably 3 people on the forum that I don't actually respect as individuals and Popeye and Blackjack are on holiday!

Garret
12-10-2010, 06:31 PM
For those right wingers here that claim the Wikileaks cables are being vetted so that they are only releasing ones that are showing the US govt. in a bad light, how about these

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/drug-company-investigated-legal-chief-2156010.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/burma-building-nuclear-and-missile-sites-2156168.html

Not exactly harming US diplomacy are they?

C'mon Allison - the first one is about a US company! Don't you know that saying anything bad about a US company is tantamount to treason? :p

Allison
12-10-2010, 06:50 PM
What did they say that was bad?
I thought that they were just celebrating the "smarts" shown by the company in managing to use blackmail to get 2 other cases where they used children from Third World countries as guinea pigs in illegal and immoral drug trials that killed some of the kids.
Isn't that the sort of standard operating procedure that should be celebrated!

Garret
12-10-2010, 06:57 PM
I just can't type straight in response to that. No wonder you get Donn's knickers twisted!

Phillip Allen
12-10-2010, 07:08 PM
Hi Gary,
No danger of that, I'm not even aware of anybody in the sandbox that I'm interested enough in to have a real argt. with, there are only probably 3 people on the forum that I don't actually respect as individuals and Popeye and Blackjack are on holiday!

I believe Allison's "argt" refers to the dragon riders' silver hand...(arget)

Allison
12-10-2010, 07:13 PM
Don is a friend that I enjoy chatting with, we don't argue anymore!BY:D

Phillip Allen
12-10-2010, 07:15 PM
piffle...argt, indeed :)

seanz
12-10-2010, 07:20 PM
Hi Gary,
No danger of that, I'm not even aware of anybody in the sandbox that I'm interested enough in to have a real argt. with, there are only probably 3 people on the forum that I don't actually respect as individuals and Popeye and Blackjack are on holiday!

I don't think you've met Popeye yet, he's fun. I don't know who POPEYE was but they weren't the real deal.

Allison
12-10-2010, 07:23 PM
To make sure that there is no confusion, I wouldn't want to upset Don.
He's not the 3rd person I referred to. I would be disappointed if anybody thought that, he has done nothing to earn my contempt at all! unlike the other person!!

He's obviously someone who believes in what he's saying and appears to be honest in his dealings as far as I can see. I might not agree with him but that's normal.

Phillip Allen
12-10-2010, 07:27 PM
I might not agree with him but that's normal.

He is NOT normal!!! :)

The Bigfella
12-10-2010, 09:12 PM
To make sure that there is no confusion, I wouldn't want to upset Don.
He's not the 3rd person I referred to. I would be disappointed if anybody thought that, he has done nothing to earn my contempt at all! unlike the other person!!

He's obviously someone who believes in what he's saying and appears to be honest in his dealings as far as I can see. I might not agree with him but that's normal.

Wow.... fancy someone earning your contempt. On the internet even!

Here's a free tip for you (I normally charge a fee, but for a fellow woodie, I'll make an exception).... try spending more time on smiles and fun things, rather than worrying about contempt. Bottling that sort of stuff up never does anyone good.

WX
12-10-2010, 10:28 PM
To make sure that there is no confusion, I wouldn't want to upset Don.
He's not the 3rd person I referred to. I would be disappointed if anybody thought that, he has done nothing to earn my contempt at all! unlike the other person!!

He's obviously someone who believes in what he's saying and appears to be honest in his dealings as far as I can see. I might not agree with him but that's normal.
Oh dear! Now you've done it!

Allison
12-11-2010, 01:58 AM
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20101211/tuk-assange-to-be-charged-with-espionage-dba1618.html


The lawyers are expecting the US to charge him very soon.
Now it 's time to find out how good the UK legal system is!!

peter radclyffe
12-11-2010, 06:23 AM
i say he needs gareth pierce to represent him

Allison
12-11-2010, 06:32 AM
apparently he's got Geoffrey Robinson, maybe good, may not!

peter radclyffe
12-11-2010, 06:39 AM
or camiile paglia

Allison
12-11-2010, 06:50 AM
I've heard of pierce but not paglia

skuthorp
12-11-2010, 06:57 AM
I considered myself the ultimate cynic, SWMBO tells me that I look for the angle in everything and consider no one untainted by self interest. Well even I am taken aback by first the incompetance of the US 'intelligence' and diplomatic agencies, then the sheer dereliction of duty by governments and their PS towards it's citizens. And now to the flagrant pressuring of the law of soveriegn nations by most likely the US and the collapse of our own PM in the face of it. I hope Assange is not turned over but will not be surprised, but the genie is out of the bottle. There are politicians all over the western world that have no clothes and may be unlikely to achieve office again, I hope. But people are strange cattle maybe they will see their own pecadillos mirrored in their representatives plight and, if not forget, forgive.

peter radclyffe
12-11-2010, 07:05 AM
she is not a q c, she is a feminist, tho i doubt if she would represent him

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-11-2010, 08:09 AM
apparently he's got Geoffrey Robertson QC, maybe good, may not!

I suppose the advantage is that he speaks Strine. He would not have been my choice - I would have instructed Michael Mansfield QC, who though even more radical is much less of a self promoter and, frankly, has more common sense.

Anyway, this is where this case is going:

http://www.supremecourt.gov.uk/about/biographies.html

McMike
12-11-2010, 08:27 AM
I considered myself the ultimate cynic, SWMBO tells me that I look for the angle in everything and consider no one untainted by self interest. Well even I am taken aback by first the incompetance of the US 'intelligence' and diplomatic agencies, then the sheer dereliction of duty by governments and their PS towards it's citizens. And now to the flagrant pressuring of the law of soveriegn nations by most likely the US and the collapse of our own PM in the face of it. I hope Assange is not turned over but will not be surprised, but the genie is out of the bottle. There are politicians all over the western world that have no clothes and may be unlikely to achieve office again, I hope. But people are strange cattle maybe they will see their own pecadillos mirrored in their representatives plight and, if not forget, forgive.

It's a given that they will forget. I don't think the "people" are smart enough to understand that there is anything to forgive. Most of the chest-beaters here want Assange dead. The masses don't get it.

peter radclyffe
12-11-2010, 09:57 AM
is assange more like google or ghandi, either way he is your friend, & if it was'nt him what he has done is inevitable with the internet,

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-11-2010, 10:30 AM
It's a given that they will forget. I don't think the "people" are smart enough to understand that there is anything to forgive. Most of the chest-beaters here want Assange dead. The masses don't get it.

That's a lot of overreaction. We don't want him dead. We want to know how extensive his net work is and how many possibly dangerous programs he may have accumulated.
Is he capable of bringing down networks that serve communications, banking, energy distribution, defense command structures, etc. ? If so, where did the stuff come from and who is in possession of it now?
If he is as slick as he is portrayed he might be the ultimate terrorist who only needs access to a computer to make his attack.

peter radclyffe
12-11-2010, 10:53 AM
them injuns are circlin' again cap'n
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Spc_isxSc

Paul Pless
12-11-2010, 11:00 AM
is assange more like google or ghandi, either way he is your friend, & if it was'nt him what he has done is inevitable with the internet,

doesn't he have the perfect name for a bond villain?

George Jung
12-11-2010, 11:56 AM
I had read that a change in government protocol, signed into law by Clinton, allowed far greater access to 'classified' material than ever before, including a change to the hardware that allowed it to be downloaded, even by a pfc. As I read it ( Time magazine), that lil' 'oops' has been fixed, but the question remains - why would they have done that in the first place?

Assange has opened up the portal. The 'next' wizard will take it to another level, I suspect.

peter radclyffe
12-11-2010, 02:37 PM
doesn't he have the perfect name for a bond villain?
:d:d

nw_noob
12-11-2010, 02:43 PM
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20101211/tuk-assange-to-be-charged-with-espionage-dba1618.html


The lawyers are expecting the US to charge him very soon.
Now it 's time to find out how good the UK legal system is!!

Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/state-dept-political-objective-disqualifies-reporter-from-considered-journalist/) is reporting that the U.S. State Department has been laying some groundwork. They're asserting that Assange can't be considered a journalist, because he has political goals. Apparently that makes him a "political actor." We'll have to wait and see if they pursue a case or not.

skuthorp
12-11-2010, 03:13 PM
I had read that a change in government protocol, signed into law by Clinton, allowed far greater access to 'classified' material than ever before, including a change to the hardware that allowed it to be downloaded, even by a pfc. As I read it ( Time magazine), that lil' 'oops' has been fixed, but the question remains - why would they have done that in the first place?

Assange has opened up the portal. The 'next' wizard will take it to another level, I suspect.
I heard that whilst State Dept computers don't have a disc slot the militaries ones do. Sounds a bit odd to me.

skuthorp
12-11-2010, 03:19 PM
I suppose the advantage is that he speaks Strine. He would not have been my choice - I would have instructed Michael Mansfield QC, who though even more radical is much less of a self promoter and, frankly, has more common sense.

Anyway, this is where this case is going:

http://www.supremecourt.gov.uk/about/biographies.html
Robertson will get him much better publicity as he is an accomplished media performer. In this case where political pressure increases the risk of 'bending' the law public opinion and public reactions will be very important. Politicians the world over will be ducking for cover and working frantically lest copycat leakers expose them too. Only in countries like China and Russia wil they not care.

S.V. Airlie
12-11-2010, 03:20 PM
Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/state-dept-political-objective-disqualifies-reporter-from-considered-journalist/) is reporting that the U.S. State Department has been laying some groundwork. They're asserting that Assange can't be considered a journalist, because he has political goals. Apparently that makes him a "political actor." We'll have to wait and see if they pursue a case or not.

As if some journalists were not political.....Hello Rush ( that depends on whether he is really a journalist) Are you potilitcal?

Phillip Allen
12-11-2010, 03:22 PM
Raw Story (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/state-dept-political-objective-disqualifies-reporter-from-considered-journalist/) is reporting that the U.S. State Department has been laying some groundwork. They're asserting that Assange can't be considered a journalist, because he has political goals. Apparently that makes him a "political actor." We'll have to wait and see if they pursue a case or not.

all I can say is Fox news, Dan Rather...there certainly are more

skuthorp
12-11-2010, 03:23 PM
As if some journalists were not political.....Hello Rush ( that depends on whether he is really a journalist) Are you potilitcal?

Sounds a bit thin to me, clutching at straws? And what about Fox and Murdoch undere those precepts?

Allison
12-11-2010, 05:24 PM
That's a lot of overreaction. We don't want him dead.

Chuck,
I guess Palin and those calling for his death come from elsewhere.
I certainly think they all come from another planet. The guy is not the slick ultimate terrorist. He's an anti social creep with lousy social skills who also happens to run a journalistic service that "irritates" a few people

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-11-2010, 05:38 PM
The newspapers used to think that this man was the super slick ultimate terrorist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_the_Jackal

Now we know better.

One handy insight into the minds of these creeps - Carlos, a Venezualan by birth, is now in a French jail and will be for a very long time to come. He is now an apologist for Islam, yet most of his atrocities were carried out when he was working for the PFLP, which was set up by George Habash, who was a Christian.

Allison
12-11-2010, 05:47 PM
Carlos was a "Gun for Hire" who doesn't seem to have had any personal political values and goals that he was willing to pursue to any great extent, he was into the "game" with all that meant!

If "They" are judging terrorist activities by the amount of damage done to the country then there's going to be a fairly long queue and it will be round the block before its anything else than American pollies headed by a few that we know so well!

Y Bar Ranch
12-11-2010, 08:19 PM
I had read that a change in government protocol, signed into law by Clinton, allowed far greater access to 'classified' material than ever before, including a change to the hardware that allowed it to be downloaded, even by a pfc. As I read it ( Time magazine), that lil' 'oops' has been fixed, but the question remains - why would they have done that in the first place?
9/11 identified multiple cases where the Government's left hand didn't know what the Government's right hand knew, and so missed chances to "connect the dots" and stop things before they happened. This forced a sort of renaissance "Prague Spring" in intelligence sharing, so that rather than a few people knowing a few secrets, everybody had access to all the secrets. At the Secret level. This has been an absolute boon to counter-terror work, as counter-terror work is counter-network work, and it takes a network to understand and take down a network.

As for why let a PFC see this stuff, google on the "Strategic Corporal" to understand how the mil works to empower at all ranks. Differentiates us from the more hierarchical ones.

It shouldn't be overlooked that the opening of access within the classified info world meant hundreds of thousands of American citizens could see all this stuff, and had the opportunity to leak any egregious fouls. All we've really had is one confused PFC doing a plea for attention. He didn't any more than .001% of what he gave away.

The wikileaks is going to have the opposite desired effect. It is going to squelch openness in diplomacy obviously, and already the gates are coming back up in the intel world. Less inter-government dialog and less intra-government dialog.

Heckuvajob Julian! Mission Accomplished!

Phillip Allen
12-11-2010, 10:02 PM
you are doing what we call being "nasty nice"...just in case you thought you were fooling me :)

HEY! you deleted the post I was responding to!

Allison
12-11-2010, 10:46 PM
Don,
I'm so disappointed to see all the time and effort we have put in together to help you improve your weak debating skills seems to have been wasted. That's a real pity. I had such high hopes for you, it looked like you were doing so well lately but sadly we are back to square one again.
But I made a comittment to you as a friend and teacher Don and I won't go back on that, I won't abandon you at the time of your greatest need!
We'll do this together Don, as many times as it takes and remember not to be put off by all those other guys, they are just jealous of our special friendship!
After all what are friends for if not to help each other?

Ok, here we go,

Let me see if I have this right. If Palin calls for the death of Assange (I haven't seen evidence of this call.), all Americans call for the death of Assange?

Don, you got this right, you were so subtle to show your understanding by that little question that you left hanging. That you chose to use such a totally absurd statement that clearly has nothing to do with anything I've ever posted or would be foolish enough to post, shows the humour that you wanted to bring to the matter. Subtle!

" Originally Posted by Allison
He's an anti social creep with lousy social skills who also happens to run a journalistic service that "irritates" a few people"

It must follow, then, all Australians are "anti social creeps with lousy social skills," and since Alison is an avowed vegan anarchist, so it must be for all Australians.

So here again you have given great examples of the fallacy of "drawing conclusions from the one about the many". the absurdity of the examples is a little over the top and lack the subtlety of your first part but they work.

But then sadly Don we get into the disappointing part.
After your good start it just goes nowhere, you've broken through the barriers that held you back before but then it just ends in some sort of pointless freefall!
I guess it's sort of like those freeways that you see in the movies, the car is racing along at an incredible speed , they crash through some barriers and then the freeway ends, the car sails through the air and then crashes and burns.
That's what has happened here you just sailed so gracefully through the air, you've got everybody's attention, they are riveted on you Don and then "poof". there's no big crash, no fire just a miserable little "poof" and it vanishes.
This is the part that you need to work on Don, you are still having trouble, a lot of trouble really, with this bit.
Your argt. or comment actually has to mean something! I know it's a big step but it just doesn't work unless you achieve something other than getting everyone's attention and then disappointing them.

Now if you had been able to quote any one of my posts on this thread that showed I'd fallen victim to that fallacy then you might have been able to achieve something of substance.
But sadly you didn't, probably because you can't find one.

It's OK Don, don't be too disheartened, you started out well, you even managed to get a little humour in there at first though it was a little bit of the "Theatre of the Absurd" in the latter part.

Remember Don "Rome wasn't built in a day".
When you think back just those few short weeks since we started working together as to what you were like then your progress is astounding really!!

But I guess I shouldn't feel so bad. Really I owe you an apology for being so hard on you at the beginning of this post.
You've done well Don. Together we'll get there!
Trust me Don, we can do it togetherBY:DBY:D

Allison
12-11-2010, 11:12 PM
I hadn't finished and accidentally hit the post button, Thank you for your praise so now I'm waiting eagerly for you to go through and point out the errors that you think you see. Remember this is the point of the whole exercise, how else are you going to learn to do this rightBY:DBY:D

Ian McColgin
12-11-2010, 11:18 PM
Donn's interesting. I keep thinking that he's actually more thoughtful than shown by the evidence of his posts. Perhaps it's just that I enjoy a mordent wit and figure that we fuller figured bearded guys share something . . .

Allison
12-11-2010, 11:21 PM
It isn't the number of words you waste in a losing battle, it's what the words say.

I'm waiting Donn, show me that you've actually learnt something from our time together and point out how my post fails as you claim, remember that's rule one. "No disparaging comments, answer to the argt. and show the errors" that's how it works!
I'm interested to see how much you've learnt, you are much politer than you used to be, that's good!

Allison
12-11-2010, 11:24 PM
Ian of course Don is a lot sharper than his posts show. Why else do you think I'm taking so much time with him. He's a legend and I like him. he knows I'll back him if anyone else gives him a hard time, that's what friends are for!

Allison
12-11-2010, 11:29 PM
fuller figured bearded guys share something

Sorry Ian but you've shattered an illusion, when he posted in such detail about military stuff and I heard he was a marine I had a different image! Oh well, that won't ruin the friendship, maybe I can encourage him to go to the gym. I'm nearly 60 and I find it really helps a lot. Helps keep your mind sharp too Don. good for you!|;)

skipper68
12-11-2010, 11:36 PM
Why,OOH why,do I read the most interesting debates....and it turns in to the play ground?I find myself watching a giant "KABOOM".and now it never surprises me.Such a waste of intelligence...UGH! (nobody personally,just the whole bilge has issues. )I wont leave,but the disappointment,when the conversation disintegrated,makes me feel I followed a dead end.

Allison
12-11-2010, 11:39 PM
Skipper, if there is no humour in some of this it becomes way too heavy, the topic has been done around several times and until some more news pops up it's time to eases the tension a little by playing!

Allison
12-12-2010, 12:13 AM
Don,
do you need some extra time to sort out your homework. Its not a test so don't feel too bad. I'm happy to give you some extra time if you need it!

skuthorp
12-12-2010, 05:53 AM
I realy wish that you could keep your personal spats to PM's. But then I suppose if Scot stays his hand then it's OK and I should make my first use of the ignore function.

varadero
12-12-2010, 05:54 AM
This gives a little background on the rape rap.

http://guyanafriends.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/860604972/m/80520940941

"As Mark Stephens, Assange's London attorney, had told AOL News this past weekend, Swedish prosecutors want Assange "not for allegations of rape, as previously reported", but for something called "sex by surprise", which Stephens said "involves a fine of 5,000 kronor or about $715". Stephens added, "We don't even know what 'sex by surprise' even means, and they haven't told us."

"Sex by surprise" is legally considered an offense only in Sweden. Anywhere else - including the US and the United Kingdom - quite a few women are rushing to clarify that if it really means what the definition implies, they more than welcome it.

Four charges are involved in the Assange thriller; one "Miss A", 31, a blonde, feminist, social democrat whom once wrote a treatise on how to take revenge against men, poses as victim of "unlawful coercion"; then sex with a malfunctioning condom; then "deliberate molestation"; and finally there's "sex by surprise" with one "Miss W", 27, an art photographer and avowed Assange groupie.

"Miss A" must have enjoyed the mess around, because even after the broken condom the first time, they were seen together the day after. And it was "Miss W" herself who invited Assange to her apartment - even paying for his train ticket. During the trip, Assange seems to have preferred his computer to her company - as the dejected groupie told police. Sex ensued, anyway - with no condom.

skuthorp
12-12-2010, 05:58 AM
Extradition to Sweeden on these matters is a red herring of course, it will be interesting to see if British judges can be heavied as easily as Sweedish politicians.

purri
12-12-2010, 06:02 AM
So how does the phrase translate into Swedish from "Is that a hard drive in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?"

George Jung
12-12-2010, 06:06 AM
"It's a Dell!"

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-12-2010, 06:32 AM
Extradition to Sweeden on these matters is a red herring of course, it will be interesting to see if British judges can be heavied as easily as Sweedish politicians.

Sometimes, they can be. The late unlamented Lord Widgery was one who could be and was - he carried out the initial inquiry into the Bloody Sunday shootings in Londonderry, which whitewashed the Army. But he was Lord Chief Justice and never a Law Lord. The injustice was sorted out at phenomenal expense over 12 years by Lord Saville.

I suspect that Robertson's avowed Anti-Catholicism may cause Lord Kerr, the one SCJ who was raised a Catholic, (he comes from Northern Ireland) to recuse himself, but one cannot be sure. Beyond that I would be amazed if the Supreme Court were influenced politically - indeed I would confidently assert that any attempt to do would backfire specctacularly.

Allison
12-12-2010, 06:56 AM
"Sex by Surprise".
That's a strange charge, I wonder what they actually mean by that. I can think of lots of scenarios but most don't seem to be illegal at least not as far as I know. Though I do understand that some "surprising" things are still illegal in some of the southern states in the US.
But somehow I don't think that's what they are talking about!Y:o

Sex with a surprise, I understand that!BY:D
Surprising Sex, that I understand too!BY:D

But what they are talking about I have no idea!

The Bigfella
12-12-2010, 07:04 AM
There doesn't seem to be a lot of comprehension among some posters here.

It has been widely reported what that "sex by surprise" was... including on this forum.

ShagRock
12-12-2010, 07:22 AM
I suspect that Robertson's avowed Anti-Catholicism may cause Lord Kerr, the one SCJ who was raised a Catholic, (he comes from Northern Ireland) to recuse himself, but one cannot be sure. Beyond that I would be amazed if the Supreme Court were influenced politically - indeed I would confidently assert that any attempt to do would backfire specctacularly.

You stumbled on the last word.....sometimes one can amaze oneself..

Allison
12-12-2010, 07:23 AM
There doesn't seem to be a lot of comprehension as to what a joke is among at least one poster here but what can you expect!

I t is widely known what humour is even on this forum:p

ShagRock
12-12-2010, 07:37 AM
There doesn't seem to be a lot of comprehension as to what a joke is among at least one poster here!

I t is widely known what humour is even on this forum:p

Expert on 'dry humor'...

varadero
12-12-2010, 07:44 AM
I did not pick up this link from earlier on.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail?entry_id=78430
SEX BY SUPRISE explained.

It appears to me Assange had sex with two girls, and then they started talking to each other. One of them seems to be a bit of an expert on taking revenge against ex boyfreinds, and they agreed to get him back for his indiscretion. Arden is now in Palestine, and the rumours are starting that Assange, due to the lack of dirt on Isael, has agreements with Mossad.

Allison
12-12-2010, 07:49 AM
Expert on 'dry humor'...

Dry humour is always preferable to wet jokes!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-12-2010, 07:53 AM
You stumbled on the last word.....sometimes one can amaze oneself..

:d;)Y>

ShagRock
12-12-2010, 07:54 AM
Expert on 'dry humor'...

Dry humour is always preferable to wet jokes!

Wooden boat sailors might think twice....

Allison
12-12-2010, 08:24 AM
[I]Wooden boat sailors might think twice....[???

Allison
12-13-2010, 04:38 AM
The US Congress is trying to put new laws in place so that it can prosecute wiki-leaks. Their old ones don't work.

"It is for that reason that some US politicians are introducing draft legislation to expand existing US laws to make it easier for Mr Holder to do his job. The so-called Securing Human Intelligence and Enforcing Lawful Dissemination (Shield) Bill was thus introduced by Congressman Peter King, a Republican from New York who will become chairman of the House Intelligence Committee when the new House of Representatives with a Republican majority convenes in January. The Bill would make it illegal to publish the names of military or intelligence community informants.

It essentially mirrors a similar piece of draft legislation introduced a few days earlier in the Senate by the trio of Joe Lieberman of Connecticut (an independent who votes normally with the Democrats) with Scott Brown and Susan Collins, both New England Republicans.

While hearings on those bills may not begin until the new year, officials said they expect the House Judiciary Committee to kick off the process with an initial hearing this Thursday on how the Espionage Act might be updated to give prosecutors more room for manoeuvre in the digital age."

So I guess they'll probably make it retrospective so that they can get people for acting "legally" before the laws came in!

All a bit desperate sounding.
Maybe they want to take peoples attention away from something else!

WX
12-13-2010, 04:46 AM
The US Congress is trying to put new laws in place so that it can prosecute wiki-leaks. Their old ones don't work.

"It is for that reason that some US politicians are introducing draft legislation to expand existing US laws to make it easier for Mr Holder to do his job. The so-called Securing Human Intelligence and Enforcing Lawful Dissemination (Shield) Bill was thus introduced by Congressman Peter King, a Republican from New York who will become chairman of the House Intelligence Committee when the new House of Representatives with a Republican majority convenes in January. The Bill would make it illegal to publish the names of military or intelligence community informants.

It essentially mirrors a similar piece of draft legislation introduced a few days earlier in the Senate by the trio of Joe Lieberman of Connecticut (an independent who votes normally with the Democrats) with Scott Brown and Susan Collins, both New England Republicans.

While hearings on those bills may not begin until the new year, officials said they expect the House Judiciary Committee to kick off the process with an initial hearing this Thursday on how the Espionage Act might be updated to give prosecutors more room for manoeuvre in the digital age."

So I guess they'll probably make it retrospective so that they can get people for acting "legally" before the laws came in!

All a bit desperate sounding.
Maybe they want to take peoples attention away from something else!
So, it will basically mean they will be able to arrest foreign journalists anywhere in the world. That's a bit worrying isn't it?

Allison
12-13-2010, 04:49 AM
That's the plan!

WX
12-13-2010, 04:53 AM
That's the plan!
I think there may be some blowback from that idea..it's a CIA term for unforseen results.
I dunno, they achieve world power status and develop delusions of grandeur.

Allison
12-13-2010, 06:11 AM
Both the grandeur and the status are fading and likely to do more so over the next few years so things like this must really rankle with the hawks!

skuthorp
12-13-2010, 07:04 AM
The US Congress is trying to put new laws in place so that it can prosecute wiki-leaks. Their old ones don't work.

"It is for that reason that some US politicians are introducing draft legislation to expand existing US laws to make it easier for Mr Holder to do his job. The so-called Securing Human Intelligence and Enforcing Lawful Dissemination (Shield) Bill was thus introduced by Congressman Peter King, a Republican from New York who will become chairman of the House Intelligence Committee when the new House of Representatives with a Republican majority convenes in January. The Bill would make it illegal to publish the names of military or intelligence community informants.

It essentially mirrors a similar piece of draft legislation introduced a few days earlier in the Senate by the trio of Joe Lieberman of Connecticut (an independent who votes normally with the Democrats) with Scott Brown and Susan Collins, both New England Republicans.

While hearings on those bills may not begin until the new year, officials said they expect the House Judiciary Committee to kick off the process with an initial hearing this Thursday on how the Espionage Act might be updated to give prosecutors more room for manoeuvre in the digital age."

So I guess they'll probably make it retrospective so that they can get people for acting "legally" before the laws came in!

All a bit desperate sounding.
Maybe they want to take peoples attention away from something else!

Umm, will that make the Plame affair retrospectively illegal too?

skuthorp
12-13-2010, 07:20 AM
You know that this cannot go on indefinitely, like some other conflicts about the solution will be, in the end, "political". Wikileaks have released what, 1000 documents. How many have they got? 100 times that amount? It can't go on for years, it doesn't have to. The damage has already been done. Interestingly it seems Wikileaks offered the US vetting rights on the documents but they refused, cutting of their nose......etc. Instead the regular press has been doing it before publication. If the US does as Allison suggests it will do itself more harm than Wikileaks could ever do, but that may not stop them. It would 'legalise' kidnap and rendition under US law if not anyone elses. Very NK of them.
There will be a deal done, or the regular press and public will get tired of them, funds will dry up and pollies ant the'intelligence' community will resume operations as before, but with a more secure setup. BTW, any sign of whose heads will roll (apart from the army private) for having a system so easily penetrated and copied in the first place?

perldog007
12-13-2010, 07:24 AM
Yes, strangely the CBC used almost precisely the same words. Assange does not deny having had consensual sex with these two women in August 2010.

"Rape" is a mistranslation, and "molestation" seems rather far-fetched. The Swedish law defines the offence being translated as "rape" as consensual sex without a condom. The women in question pursued Assange, willingly had sex with him, and became miffed when he (a) had sex with both of them in a 4-day period, and (b) didn't call them as he'd promised ... or take their calls when they tried to stay in contact with him.

It's a case of buyer's remorse, not of rape.

With apologies for making light of Mr. Assange's unenviable situation and without wishing to excuse various governments ( presumably to include my own ) , if he in fact did the above to not one but two Swedish ladies and is merely being detained and extradited he may be catching a break. Those ladies are not to be trifled with as a general rule IMO.

I think it's good to raise awareness of the conduct of governments especially when their actions may tend to appear to be motivated by suspect intentions. Having said that, as one who has served in uniform and having my only child under arms I can't agree with the methods of WikiLeaks. Personally, I would like to see him incarcerated where he will have plenty of opportunities for casual sex without a condom.

Understanding that there is a large pool of thinkers who believe that the actions of wikileaks have endangered no one, it's still a situation that I find untenable. At this point I am not convinced that the motives of Mr. Assange and his backers/supporters are any more ethical than the institutions they are antagonistic of.

skuthorp
12-13-2010, 08:42 AM
I'm sure he's aware of the danger Joe, but that would certainly ensure that all the documents, unvetted, are released into cyberspace on multi platforms and that is not what most governments would want. Note I say 'most'.

Allison
12-13-2010, 09:07 AM
Personally, I would like to see him incarcerated where he will have plenty of opportunities for casual sex without a condom.

So its comments like this that show that the minds of some posters are not exactly sleaze free!! You think that rape is a suitable punishment for any crime? Frankly that is seriously sick and you should be ashamed of yourself!

S.V. Airlie
12-13-2010, 09:18 AM
Rape is not consensual sex between to adults. It is in Sweden if preformed without a condom.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-13-2010, 09:26 AM
Remand hearing tomorrow.