PDA

View Full Version : What the Hell is wrong with Obama???



Paul Pless
12-07-2010, 08:21 AM
No courage?

A lack of conviction?

Overwhelmed?

McMike
12-07-2010, 08:25 AM
What's wrong; the Republicans and Democrats and the ignorance of the American people. Also, he might be a typical politician, just maybe, in which case, he's destine to fail like all typical politicians.

elf
12-07-2010, 08:29 AM
So, Paul, how would you disable a bully when 20% of your own crowd is one too?

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 08:41 AM
Nothing is wrong with Obama, he is a politician...case closed

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 08:49 AM
Do you mean this? (http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/)

LeeG
12-07-2010, 08:53 AM
I don't get it. When everyone says the tax cuts for the rich were bad for the deficit he's negotiating to retain them for two more years?

Mrleft8
12-07-2010, 08:55 AM
No support from his own side, and a united front against him on the other side.

Paul Pless
12-07-2010, 08:57 AM
Do you mean this? (http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/)no.

Canoez
12-07-2010, 08:57 AM
...plus the desire to extend unemployment benefits to those who need them.

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 09:04 AM
no.

In which case you'll have to be a little bit more specific.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-07-2010, 09:08 AM
No support from his own side, and a united front against him on the other side.


.... and the rich win again. This is what the American people want, because they just finished an election in which this outcome was determined. Nothing to complain about, the majority rules.

Tom Montgomery
12-07-2010, 09:12 AM
.
Can the White House win in 2012 by losing on the Bush tax cuts now? By Ezra Klein (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/12/can_the_white_house_win_in_201.html)
.

elf
12-07-2010, 09:15 AM
It appears to be so. They've been voting for it since Reagan and, despite their unhappiness, seem to be enthusiastic to continue.

This is the 3rd generation now buying this story line.

Is there anywhere where this isn't the case?

Milo Christensen
12-07-2010, 09:17 AM
.... and the rich win again. This is what the American people want, because they just finished an election in which this outcome was determined. Nothing to complain about, the majority rules.


Who's out of work, and who voted. This certainly explains much about the current economic policy debate.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/graduatesvotes.png

Source. (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/12/who_graduates_who_votes_and_wh.html)

Just imagine if all those uneducated folks had actually bothered to get up off their unemployed fat asses and voted on their way to WalMart.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 09:17 AM
It appears to be so. They've been voting for it since Reagan and, despite their unhappiness, seem to be enthusiastic to continue.

This is the 3rd generation now buying this story line.

Is there anywhere where this isn't the case?

I don't know what you're talking about but obviously YOU don't buy the story...

SMARTINSEN
12-07-2010, 09:20 AM
I think that Lefty has the gist of the problem. The Republicans are lock-step united in their opposition to Obama. Trying to acheive the same discipline with the Democrats is like herding cats.

Bernake signaled the need for tax relief, so there is no surprise in Obama's concession. I think that Obama is trying his utmost to revive the stalled economy. If he can help to do that with the combination of extended tax relief for all and extension of unemployment compensation for those that need it, then the impact on the deficit will be worth it if it works. It is all about the economy, and if it is better in 2012, his re-election chances will be better.

Obama is seen as vacillating, and do I wish the he could project a more forceful image. That said, he has a delicate task of navigating treacherous shoals on a lee shore.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-07-2010, 09:20 AM
Lets face it, most of the voting public is not only ignorant, but selfish. I think most western nations suffer from the same problems in government.... blame the politician for everything, and do nothing yourself. Let major lobbyists influence what happen, and when a courageous politician proposes change, abandon him/her at the first sign of trouble or hardship. The difference between the USA and other nations is that it relies more on wealth and good times. The safety nets in a lot of other "socialist" countries is a lot wider and deeper, so the pain is lessened when things get rough. The lack of regulation in the US systems helps when times are good, but heaven forbid things go bad.

john l
12-07-2010, 09:27 AM
Turns out that this tax plan will add more to the deficit than the stimulus plan. So why do the repubs want this? Are they bigger spenders than the dems?
I guess the tax plan is a face saving thing for both dems and repubs. It is really Stimulus 2 disguised as Tax break.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 09:27 AM
I think politicians say "me first" first.. call it self preservation.. How can a millionaire Senator not vote for tax cuts for the rich when they are rich? I think it is human nature.. 54 senators are millionaires. You don't cut the throat of the goose or gander.
Pork is popular in the budgets because individuals don't have to foot the bill; the tax payer does. Why in heck is the central office of the Coast Guard in West Virginia. Good for the Senator who has a political coup and a chalk mark up for his re-election chances.

Not the current numbers the current # is 54 senators. There were 22 reps and 18 dems designated asmillionaires in 2001

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-07-2010, 09:28 AM
I remembered this... seems somewhat apropo




Then he says, slow and scornful:

"The idea of YOU lynching anybody! It's amusing. The idea of you thinking you had pluck enough to lynch a MAN! Because you're brave enough to tar and feather poor friendless cast-out women that come along here, did that make you think you had grit enough to lay your hands on a MAN? Why, a MAN'S safe in the hands of ten thousand of your kind—as long as it's daytime and you're not behind him.

"Do I know you? I know you clear through was born and raised in the South, and I've lived in the North; so I know the average all around. The average man's a coward. In the North he lets anybody walk over him that wants to, and goes home and prays for a humble spirit to bear it. In the South one man all by himself, has stopped a stage full of men in the daytime, and robbed the lot. Your newspapers call you a brave people so much that you think you are braver than any other people—whereas you're just AS brave, and no braver. Why don't your juries hang murderers? Because they're afraid the man's friends will shoot them in the back, in the dark—and it's just what they WOULD do.

"So they always acquit; and then a MAN goes in the night, with a hundred masked cowards at his back and lynches the rascal. Your mistake is, that you didn't bring a man with you; that's one mistake, and the other is that you didn't come in the dark and fetch your masks. You brought PART of a man—Buck Harkness, there—and if you hadn't had him to start you, you'd a taken it out in blowing.

"You didn't want to come. The average man don't like trouble and danger. YOU don't like trouble and danger. But if only HALF a man—like Buck Harkness, there—shouts 'Lynch him! lynch him!' you're afraid to back down—afraid you'll be found out to be what you are—COWARDS—and so you raise a yell, and hang yourselves on to that half-a-man's coat-tail, and come raging up here, swearing what big things you're going to do. The pitifulest thing out is a mob; that's what an army is—a mob; they don't fight with courage that's born in them, but with that's borrowed from their mass, and from their officers. But a mob without any MAN at the head of it is BENEATH pitifulness. Now the thing for YOU to do is to droop your tails and go home and crawl in a hole. If any real lynching's going to be done it will be done in the dark, Southern fashion; and when they come they'll bring their masks, and fetch a MAN along. Now LEAVE—and take your half-a-man with you"—tossing his gun up across his left arm and cocking it when he says this.

Nicholas Scheuer
12-07-2010, 09:28 AM
Nothing at all "wrong with Obama" that couldn't be fixed if someone gave McConnel a dope slap with a 2x4.

You evidently never read Obama's books, wherein he discloses the art of progress through negotiation and compromise with the other side of the aisle.

Obama happens to believe that continuing unemployment benefits for the unemployed is the most important thing, at this moment.

Have you approached that a-- h--- McConnel about any of this? (probably not).

Moby Nick

john l
12-07-2010, 09:32 AM
Stimulus 2 brought to you by Obama/Boehner.

SMARTINSEN
12-07-2010, 09:35 AM
Turns out that this tax plan will add more to the deficit than the stimulus plan. So why do the repubs want this? Are they bigger spenders than the dems?
I guess the tax plan is a face saving thing for both dems and repubs. It is really Stimulus 2 disguised as Tax break.
Correct.

Karl Rove and Dick Cheney said that "Deficits do not matter."

Democrats = Tax and Spend
Republicans = Borrow and Spend

It looks like the Republicans won this round, we will see in a few years if it is for better or worse. I think that the sooner that our government gets its financial house in order the better off we will be, and I do not think that we are currently on the right track. Our taxes are low by comparison of almost all of the other developed countries, we can afford to pay more.


The lack of regulation in the US systems helps when times are good, but heaven forbid things go bad.
Correct.

We are seeing a culmination of the past 30 years of regulatory neglect, most especially, and where it hurts everyone the most, in the financial sectors.

BrianW
12-07-2010, 09:37 AM
I'm liking the new cooperation between the White House and the Republicans. Apparently it's not going to be popular with some democrats.

TomF
12-07-2010, 09:38 AM
Democrats = Tax and Spend
Republicans = Borrow and Spend

Makes one wonder which is more honest about the cost of their policies, eh?

SMARTINSEN
12-07-2010, 09:43 AM
I'm liking the new cooperation between the White House and the Republicans. Apparently it's not going to be popular with some democrats.

I think that that is is also part of the President's political calculus. It might help to calm troubled political waters. Maybe he can get you to vote for him, Brian. ;)

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-07-2010, 09:48 AM
Look, folks, Obama is acting like a leader of the people. The people include those on unemployment. We have had a long period of high unemployment and a large number of those recieving unemployment are in danger of using up their benefits. If Obama lets that happen many millions of the unemployed will bcome charity cases and will drop out of the economy. The situation is, of course not good for those so effected but the hole they leave by being without buying power will hurt our struggling economy.
Fighting useless battles for "principle" may have been a peachy strategy in The Thirty Years War but it doesn't make sense in this situation. Obama is showing good generalship obeying the first law of war, "every battle need not be fought".

htom
12-07-2010, 09:48 AM
Peter Principle: above his level of current competency.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 09:49 AM
HOOVERVILLE revisited.

Paul Pless
12-07-2010, 09:58 AM
I think that that is is also part of the President's political calculus. It might help to calm troubled political waters. Maybe he can get you to vote for him, Brian. ;)you could a warned a guy, that was my last frikkin cup of coffee this morning dammit

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-07-2010, 10:02 AM
I'm liking the new cooperation between the White House and the Republicans. Apparently it's not going to be popular with some democrats.

Obama wants you and your right-wing friends to like it, Brian. If tax breaks for the wealthy don't deliver the promised jobs Obama can smack your side upside the head with them in 2012. Ben Bernanke has already said the economy is not likely to come back for 4-5 years so having that arrow in the quiver could be very advantageous.

Milo Christensen
12-07-2010, 10:11 AM
. . . Ben Bernanke has already said the economy is not likely to come back for 4-5 years so having that arrow in the quiver could be very advantageous.

It's good to see you using your sense of humour about the Obama administration this morning. The last two national elections have been about the economy, so I would be very interested to read your ?reasoning? behind a continuation of a bad economy being advantageous to Obama.

McMike
12-07-2010, 10:23 AM
The problem is the bad economy. The fact that those in government and most of you like to turn it into a three-ring-circus instead of making an attempt to fix the problem, together, is what's f'ed up with this country as a whole. What we truly need is stability in Washington but we will never see it if we all keep buying into the talking points that are only meant to divide us so the fat cats can get their way, until the people unite towards the goal of truly representative government, the people will never win.

John of Phoenix
12-07-2010, 10:24 AM
What the Hell is wrong with Obama???
I would have thought you'd be pleased with this compromise. It's the plum republicans wanted - tax break for the $250+ household (despite increasing the defecit). What did you want?

TimH
12-07-2010, 10:25 AM
How many really think this is just a "bad economy" and not a much more serious problem.

McMike
12-07-2010, 10:26 AM
How many really think this is just a "bad economy" and not a much more serious problem.

Like what?

Milo Christensen
12-07-2010, 10:34 AM
How many really think this is just a "bad economy" and not a much more serious problem.

Here you go Tim. How America will collapse by 2025 (http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/12/06/america_collapse_2025), four scenarios, hyperinflationary collapse not being one of them.

John of Phoenix
12-07-2010, 10:38 AM
From Milo's link:
Chinese innovation is on a trajectory toward world leadership in applied science and military technology sometime between 2020 and 2030, just as America's current supply of brilliant scientists and engineers retires, without adequate replacement by an ill-educated younger generation.
Ahh, the celebration of ignorance has it's price.

spirit
12-07-2010, 10:43 AM
I wondered whether Obama would try to go to the people and fight to get tax cuts for the rich repealed.
The "people" and the Democrats certainly did not want to continue these unnecessary tax cuts in a time of severe debt.
I guess Obama got the message that he would lose this battle either now, or as soon as Congress got its new Republican members.
So he had no other choice but to take care of the people in other ways: continue unemployment benefits and begin to fix some of other tax stuff.

There is nothing wrong with Obama.
Some of us elected this short sighted Congress!

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 10:46 AM
I wondered whether Obama would try to go to the people and fight to get tax cuts for the rich repealed.
The "people" and the Democrats certainly did not want to continue these unnecessary tax cuts in a time of severe debt.
I guess Obama got the message that he would lose this battle either now, or as soon as Congress got its new Republican members.
So he had no other choice but to take care of the people in other ways: continue unemployment benefits and begin to fix some of other tax stuff.

There is nothing wrong with Obama.
Some of us elected this short sighted Congress!

He has tried that with Obama care. Seems to end up confusing people instead.

pefjr
12-07-2010, 10:53 AM
He finally moved a slight bit more toward the center and things are starting to gel. Don't expect these left handed bilge rats to focus on reality, too quickly.

JimConlin
12-07-2010, 10:57 AM
"Can't anybody here play this game?"
Casey Stengel

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-07-2010, 10:59 AM
It's good to see you using your sense of humour about the Obama administration this morning. The last two national elections have been about the economy, so I would be very interested to read your ?reasoning? behind a continuation of a bad economy being advantageous to Obama.

This last election has made me question the rationality of the US voter. Since they are unhappy about the collapse of the economy they decided to put those that brought about the collapse back into power.
Since you live neaby you probably know that Ohio has a Republican governor in the wings. He says all the right buzz words but he doesn't like to talk about his last job. He was a front man for GOLDMAN SACHS in Columbus. He was there to push Goldman's many dicey products on our state's government. I hope the "Below I-70" voters are happy with him but I doubt he will be inclined to rain any blessings on them.
My take on Obama is that, being a very intelligent individual, he knows there is no quick economic answer in sight. He is in a disadvantageous position at the moment but he could deliver a blow to Republican aspirations in 2012 by painting their promises as hollow. They did the bidding of their wealthy masters while the rest of America got very little of the jobs that were promised.

elf
12-07-2010, 11:05 AM
It is a shame that the liklihood of our succeeding in Afghanistan is so small.

I guess.



Oil Shock: Scenario 2025

The United States remains so dependent upon foreign oil that a few adverse developments in the global energy market in 2025 spark an oil shock. By comparison, it makes the 1973 oil shock (when prices quadrupled in just months) look like the proverbial molehill. Angered at the dollar's plummeting value, OPEC oil ministers, meeting in Riyadh, demand future energy payments in a "basket" of Yen, Yuan, and Euros. That only hikes the cost of U.S. oil imports further. At the same moment, while signing a new series of long-term delivery contracts with China, the Saudis stabilize their own foreign exchange reserves by switching to the Yuan. Meanwhile, China pours countless billions into building a massive trans-Asia pipeline and funding Iran's exploitation of the world largest percent natural gas field at South Pars in the Persian Gulf.

Concerned that the U.S. Navy might no longer be able to protect the oil tankers traveling from the Persian Gulf to fuel East Asia, a coalition of Tehran, Riyadh, and Abu Dhabi form an unexpected new Gulf alliance and affirm that China's new fleet of swift aircraft carriers will henceforth patrol the Persian Gulf from a base on the Gulf of Oman. Under heavy economic pressure, London agrees to cancel the U.S. lease on its Indian Ocean island base of Diego Garcia, while Canberra, pressured by the Chinese, informs Washington that the Seventh Fleet is no longer welcome to use Fremantle as a homeport, effectively evicting the U.S. Navy from the Indian Ocean.

With just a few strokes of the pen and some terse announcements, the "Carter Doctrine," by which U.S. military power was to eternally protect the Persian Gulf, is laid to rest in 2025. All the elements that long assured the United States limitless supplies of low-cost oil from that region -- logistics, exchange rates, and naval power -- evaporate. At this point, the U.S. can still cover only an insignificant 12 percent of its energy needs from its nascent alternative energy industry, and remains dependent on imported oil for half of its energy consumption.

The oil shock that follows hits the country like a hurricane, sending prices to startling heights, making travel a staggeringly expensive proposition, putting real wages (which had long been declining) into freefall, and rendering non-competitive whatever American exports remained. With thermostats dropping, gas prices climbing through the roof, and dollars flowing overseas in return for costly oil, the American economy is paralyzed. With long-fraying alliances at an end and fiscal pressures mounting, U.S. military forces finally begin a staged withdrawal from their overseas bases.

Within a few years, the U.S. is functionally bankrupt and the clock is ticking toward midnight on the American Century.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/12/06/america_collapse_2025

Milo Christensen
12-07-2010, 11:08 AM
He finally moved a slight bit more toward the center and things are starting to gel. . . .

No, not at all that simplistic. Obama has abandoned a core principle of progressive ideology, pushed with a frenetic fanaticism for 4 years, and that is that the rich must be held responsible for our economic woes by instituting a tax increase on them that solves about 5% of the deficit problem.

Paul Pless
12-07-2010, 11:11 AM
I would have thought you'd be pleased with this compromise. It's the plum republicans wanted - tax break for the $250+ household (despite increasing the defecit). What did you want?At the least I wanted the tax breaks to expire. I thought I've been pretty clear that I'd like to see a gradual increase in tax rates across the income bracket spectrum over the next several years.

I don't so much mind the extension of unemployment benefits, but they ought to be paid for somehow. What we ended up with just boggles the mind. . .

Milo Christensen
12-07-2010, 11:13 AM
This last election has made me question the rationality of the US voter. . . .

Did you think through the ramifications of Keith's excellent graph? Can you imagine if all the uneducated, unemployed WalMart voters had actually voted?



http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/graduatesvotes.png

I'd love for Keith to find a companion chart for the 2008 election, wouldn't you?

elf
12-07-2010, 11:19 AM
So, judging from that graph 15% of the population is uneducated and doesn't bother to vote, while 25% of the population has plenty of education and consitutes the largest percentage of voters.

Keep in mind that that latter group is the one that elected the current bunch, and probably the previous bunch, and most likely has been doing the electing since Nixon.

If that's true, clearly a college or advanced education is useful for setting the country on its decline.

Paul Pless
12-07-2010, 11:22 AM
If that's true, clearly a college or advanced education is useful for setting the country on its decline.Does this mean you're done bashing Palin supporters?;):d

Milo Christensen
12-07-2010, 11:23 AM
And it could be that the ones who stayed home watching Bristol on DWTS between trips to WalMart are the smart ones, having figured out the game is so rigged against them that there's no longer any point in participating.

Edit: Cancel smart ones, substitute ones with common sense.

Paul Pless
12-07-2010, 11:26 AM
that there's no longer any point in participating.I'm very close to this point myself, and I never shop at Walmart, and I couldn't care less about Bristol, or her mother.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 11:29 AM
[QUOTE=Milo Christensen;2799362]Did you think through the ramifications of Keith's excellent graph? Can you imagine if all the uneducated, unemployed WalMart voters had actually voted?



http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/graduatesvotes.png

I'd love for Keith to find a companion chart for the 2008 election, wouldn't you?[/QUOT

Don't get me wrong Milo. I don't like shopping at Walmart's. I'd rather buy LL Bean clothes etc. I'd rather shop at the local hardware store but..... in this economy, where one has to tighten the belt. Doesn't it makes sense to spend $3-4.00 less for a twenty lbs bag of kibble or crackers or any product produced in the US at Walmarts'?

elf
12-07-2010, 11:30 AM
Participation is not optional. Except if one decides to move to India or China to stay ahead of the projected curve. Then there are other things one has no option but to participate in - like heart rending poverty, repression of freedom of speech, unsanitary living conditions, hard physical labor, shortages of everything we can imagine, disease.

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 11:30 AM
No, not at all that simplistic. Obama has abandoned a core principle of progressive ideology, pushed with a frenetic fanaticism for 4 years, and that is that the rich must be held responsible for our economic woes by instituting a tax increase on them that solves about 5% of the deficit problem.

The Prosperity Gospel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_gospel) will be delivered by Milo at 12.30 EST.

ಠ~ಠ

pefjr
12-07-2010, 11:32 AM
No, not at all that simplistic. Obama has abandoned a core principle of progressive ideology, pushed with a frenetic fanaticism for 4 years, and that is that the rich must be held responsible for our economic woes by instituting a tax increase on them that solves about 5% of the deficit problem.Well OK, or you could say the Prez. has requested that the lib demos sitting in the front, exchange bus seats with the Repubs that were told just a few short weeks ago to sit in the back, on this trip. In effect the Repubs now hold the GPS and all the clues for this bus. All aboard !!

elf
12-07-2010, 11:33 AM
I think I'll go to Ocean State Job Lot and buy a few pairs of those nice mixed natural and synthetic fiber socks from China for Christmas presents and then to Pier 1 to buy
3 or 4o more of those nice rattan baskets from China for all the junk on the top shelf in my pantry.

Bye.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 11:35 AM
I think I'll go to Ocean State Job Lot and buy a few pairs of those nice mixed natural and synthetic fiber socks from China for Christmas presents and then to Pier 1 to buy
3 or 4o more of those nice rattan baskets from China for all the junk on the top shelf in my pantry.

Bye.

Not everything is made in China at Walmarts...Seems like it but Pedigree isn't one. I don't buy toys. I don't buy what I don't need..

Nicholas Scheuer
12-07-2010, 11:36 AM
"No support from his own side" is either a very inaccurate statement, or a very stupid one.

Which?

Moby Nick

pefjr
12-07-2010, 11:39 AM
I think I'll go to Ocean State Job Lot and buy a few pairs of those nice mixed natural and synthetic fiber socks from China for Christmas presents

Bye.If you are buying one or two for me, buy Thorlos please.

paul oman
12-07-2010, 11:50 AM
obama just isn't up to the job. -- Hilary told us so during the campaign... lack of experience, lack of political skill, says stupid things, etc. Like someone else posted above, he is in over his head.
as a right wing folk, I like that! you on the left should have elected a more qualified/skilled person to carry your torch.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 11:51 AM
Not everything is made in China at Walmarts...Seems like it but Pedigree isn't one. I don't buy toys. I don't buy what I don't need..

had a CAT scan at the VA a couple of months ago. I'm laid out on my back and waiting and looking up at the "ring" over head...a sticker reported that this multi million dollar piece of equipment was MADE IN CHINA...so all you left wing racists can take a hike as far as I'm concerned

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 12:03 PM
Well ridcule Walmarts all you want. If I can save a buck here and one there it adds up. It's called being economically smart. No not a favorite of Walmarts overall but I gotta do what I gotta do.

Milo Christensen
12-07-2010, 12:07 PM
The Prosperity Gospel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_gospel) will be delivered by Milo at 12.30 EST.

ಠ~ಠ

That was, although you don't understand why, a particularly vicious insult. The point I'm trying to make is 180 degrees apart from that theology. It's the theology that all should sacrifice, of taxing all of us far more for the government we want. We can tax the rich far more than the measly few % being advocated so frenetically by the hopelessly unenlightened as far as I'm concerned. The point is that we can't look to just 5% of the population to solve our woes by having them taxed just enough to make a point but not enough to make more than a 5% drop in the ocean's real difference.

I would appreciate it if you would recognize that dire times call for dire measures and support me in calling for massive, across the board tax increases such that we suffer now but reduce the suffering on coming generations.

John of Phoenix
12-07-2010, 12:16 PM
Not everything is made in China at Walmarts...Seems like it but Pedigree isn't one. I don't buy toys. I don't buy what I don't need..

had a CAT scan at the VA a couple of months ago. I'm laid out on my back and waiting and looking up at the "ring" over head...a sticker reported that this multi million dollar piece of equipment was MADE IN CHINA...so all you left wing racists can take a hike as far as I'm concerned
Your reasoning is once again, Remarkable.

john l
12-07-2010, 12:20 PM
It's the deficit stupid!... in 2012

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 12:22 PM
Your reasoning is once again, Remarkable.

Think about it JOhn...who whines the most about WM? They then complain that the reasoning is that Chinese are making the products. Racism is the only and most logical answer here. I believe that the left hold the record for racism anyway, don't they?

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 12:22 PM
Your reasoning is once again, Remarkable. There is nothing wrong with saving a few bucks in this economy. You can buy the stuff at the A%P if you want to spend a few bucks more.So I have no idea what you are writing here. The kibble is gonna be sold at Stop and Shop or the A&P anyway. So what is so remarkable with my reasoning?

John of Phoenix
12-07-2010, 12:22 PM
Milo:
I would appreciate it if you would recognize that dire times call for dire measures and support me in calling for massive, across the board tax increases such that we suffer now but reduce the suffering on coming generations.

Paul:
At the least I wanted the tax breaks to expire. I thought I've been pretty clear that I'd like to see a gradual increase in tax rates across the income bracket spectrum over the next several years.
I suspect these two folks are are not the only conservatives who see the danger in extending the tax break for the wealthy. If it's so clearly detrimental, why was republican leadership so adamant that it be part of the deal?

John of Phoenix
12-07-2010, 12:26 PM
Jamie, Phillip - it's impossible to communicate with either of you. Sorry I tried. Put me on ignore.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 12:28 PM
Jamie, Phillip - it's impossible to communicate with either of you. Sorry I tried. Put me on ignore.

That's okay.I think you have the problem actually.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 12:34 PM
So Milo where do you shop? Do you go to a store and read all the labels as to where a product is made? Are you rich enough to afford spending a few bucks more for an item that is cheaper at Walmarts? I can't I got to cut back where I can.Glad you don't have to.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 12:35 PM
group-think from the left...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdcQ56OpxNE&feature=related

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PdcQ56OpxNE?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PdcQ56OpxNE?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Curtism
12-07-2010, 12:41 PM
A month from now, the average length of the memory of the US voter, the Republicans will be on every cable channel telling the public that this liberal Democratic President and his Democratically controlled House and Senate continued to enact failed policies that added to the already soaring debt and deficit. They did so right up until January 2011, when the newly elected Republican House majority could be sworn in to stop this insane spending spree by the Democrats. The final straw, they will howl, was the extension of the Bush era tax cuts and unemployment benefits.

With complete disregard for their own involvement in however this deal shakes out, the Republicans will continue bashing Obama for signing this insanity enacted by the Dem controlled House and Senate. The Dem controlled House and Senate did this . . . The Dem controlled House and Senate. Right up until November of 2012 the Dem controlled House and Senate will be the war cry of the Republicans for everything that has happened since the economy started collapsing in 2006.


And here I thought Obama was smart enough to not walk into this obvious trap. Appears he wasn't.

pefjr
12-07-2010, 12:45 PM
Appears Obama is smart enough and quick enough to extract himself from an obvious failed policy.

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 12:49 PM
That was, although you don't understand why, a particularly vicious insult. The point I'm trying to make is 180 degrees apart from that theology. It's the theology that all should sacrifice, of taxing all of us far more for the government we want. We can tax the rich far more than the measly few % being advocated so frenetically by the hopelessly unenlightened as far as I'm concerned. The point is that we can't look to just 5% of the population to solve our woes by having them taxed just enough to make a point but not enough to make more than a 5% drop in the ocean's real difference.

I would appreciate it if you would recognize that dire times call for dire measures and support me in calling for massive, across the board tax increases such that we suffer now but reduce the suffering on coming generations.

I think the difference is that you and others of your persuasion seem to think that recovery (for want of a better word) is going to be bestowed from the top and the Old Guard. I on the other hand, and I have no idea how many others agree with me, think that the only way to regain a meaningful economic future is going to be from the other direction.

As evidenced here http://www.palladiumboots.com/exploration/detroit

The problem with Chinese goods, even American goods, bought at Walmart is that the dollars spent are removed from the local economy, never to return.

I apologise if I caused any offense by my "Prosperity Gospel" comment, perhaps you would prefer The Gospel of Wealth? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gospel_of_Wealth)

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 12:58 PM
I suspect this is true with every mega store.Walmarts, Home Depot, Macdonalds, KentuckyfriedChicken Ikea, A&P Stop and Shop.....umm you name them Of course I'm thinking local economy here. Locals are employedat these stores I think.

Curtism
12-07-2010, 01:00 PM
Appears Obama is smart enough and quick enough to extract himself from an obvious failed policy.

So, you think Obama may start to lead now?

pefjr
12-07-2010, 01:08 PM
I think the difference is that you and others of your persuasion seem to think that recovery (for want of a better word) is going to be bestowed from the top and the Old Guard. I on the other hand, and I have no idea how many others agree with me, think that the only way to regain a meaningful economic future is going to be from the other direction.

Gravity pulls downward, to move in an upward direction requires energy to overcome gravity. Sailors might look at this as up current vs with the tide. From the top has gravity working. Old Guard has the money. Give them an opportunity and a profit along with innovative ideas and a willing work force and miracles will fall from the top like snowflakes. Or, if you want to try to push this heavy load from an other direction............

pefjr
12-07-2010, 01:10 PM
So, you think Obama may start to lead now?Start? , yes. Then comes Afghanistan , the true test.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 01:23 PM
For those who shop at L.L. Bean.Do you not think that this store that has been here since 1928 didn't force smaller stores out of business in its day and therefore hurt the local economy? So L,L, Bean is okay to shop at but Walmarts isn't sounds a little hypocritical.

Nuff said on the subject of hurting the local economy. Any store that comes into an area will do this no matter what it is.

bobbys
12-07-2010, 01:37 PM
Our libs only have 2 choices here.

Blame Reps.

They are Racist if they disagree with President Obama.

Pretty hard to blame it on not getting the votes as President Obama is saying as the Dems still hold all 3 offices so this leads me to believe the libs are lying here and are really Racists.

Shame on youse!!!

McMike
12-07-2010, 01:46 PM
Our libs only have 2 choices here.

Blame Reps.

They are Racist if they disagree with President Obama.

Pretty hard to blame it on not getting the votes as President Obama is saying as the Dems still hold all 3 offices so this leads me to believe the libs are lying here and are really Racists.

Shame on youse!!!

What the heck are you talking about?

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 01:59 PM
I suspect this is true with every mega store.Walmarts, Home Depot, Macdonalds, KentuckyfriedChicken Ikea, A&P Stop and Shop.....umm you name them Of course I'm thinking local economy here. Locals are employedat these stores I think.

I would like someone to explain to me exactly when the mental disconnect occurs it people.

Levis Ad running on a TV near you, right now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdW1CjbCNxw

And from Wikipedia...


By the 1990s, the brand was facing competition from other brands and cheaper products from overseas, and began accelerating the pace of its US factory closures and its use of offshore subcontracting agreements. In 1991, Levi Strauss faced a scandal involving six subsidiary factories on the Northern Mariana Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Mariana_Islands), a US commonwealth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_%28United_States_insular_area%29), where some 3% of Levi's jeans sold annually with the Made in the USA label were shown to have been made by Chinese laborers under what the United States Department of Labor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Labor) called "slavelike" conditions. Today, Levis jeans are made overseas..........

.. In 2002, Levi Strauss began a close business collaboration with Wal-Mart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wal-Mart), producing a special line of "Signature" jeans and other clothes for exclusive sale in Wal-Mart stores until 2006.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi_Strauss_%26_Co.#cite_note-17) Levi Strauss Signature jeans can now be purchased at several stores in the US, Canada, India and Japan.

Concentrate on the words "meaningful economic future" and not the bullsh!t you get fed everyday. Unless you think that stocking shelves for $8 an hour with no benefits is meaningful & constructive.

bobbys
12-07-2010, 02:00 PM
What the heck are you talking about?.

Sorry you will have to figure it out for yourself, To dangerous to tawk to you, After all you may report me "just" to have a few posts taken off in the name of goodness and Fairness.

johnw
12-07-2010, 02:03 PM
Nothing wrong with Obama. He recognizes that politics is the art of the possible. That's why he got a lot done during his first two years, he knew he had to tackle the big problems while he had a majority, because so little cooperation would come from the other side.

Now, remember, the Republicans were holding extended unemployment benefits hostage for their tax cut. If those had been cut while there are still more than four unemployed for every job opening, a lot of people would have suffered. That's what the lefties are forgetting in this controversy. I suspect Obama would have been willing to let the tax cuts expire if it hadn't been for the unemployment benefits. Should he have let both the unemployment benefits and the tax cuts expire? Because that really was the choice.

And why aren't the Republicans willing to cooperate on anything? They're scared. Even very conservative Republicans have lost in primaries if they bore the taint of having cooperated in any way with Obama. You can blame them for the yellow streak, but those that don't have it will soon be out of office unless the trend changes a lot. Which means the Republicans Obama has to deal with will be the ones scared enough of a primary challenge that they won't cooperate with him.

Our politics ought to be about solving the nation's problems, but if one side is afraid to cooperate, they can't be.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 02:21 PM
Pugwash..Saw the clip. My discussion was more in relation to mega stores buying out smaller ones. Every mega store does the same thing. For what it is worth, My point really was not targeting the Chinese in this case. It was pointing out the hypocracy of some refusing to go to say Walmart but are more than happy to go to Mickey D's or home Depot. Both are responsible for the small mom and pop stores closing.

Tristan
12-07-2010, 02:36 PM
What's wrong with Obama is that he was unable or unwilling to jerk the democrats up by the short hairs and get them pulling in the same damned direction instead of running around like ants on a kicked over ant hill.

McMike
12-07-2010, 02:54 PM
.

Sorry you will have to figure it out for yourself, To dangerous to tawk to you, After all you may report me "just" to have a few posts taken off in the name of goodness and Fairness.


Okay, if you think that's fair then I guess it is.:rolleyes:

SMARTINSEN
12-07-2010, 03:04 PM
Start? , yes. Then comes Afghanistan , the true test.

I do not agree with you most of the time, Bud, but in this one case your are right on. We need to extricate from the morass of the Middle East generally, and Afghanistan particularly, ASAP.

Concordia 33
12-07-2010, 03:11 PM
I guess I'm a little curious about what percentage of one's income is the maximum that the government should be allowed to take? Shouldn't we start from there, and then only spend (as a government) as much as we have revenue from the taxes. Though I don't know what a reasonable percentage is, it should be low enough that it does not stifle personal industry/initiative. I assume that people on this forum have or aspire to have wooden boats - boats are luxuries, and wooden boats are even more decadent so I assume that we all agree that if someone earns enough, that they should be entitled to discretionary income? How much?

Curtism
12-07-2010, 03:14 PM
I do not agree with you most of the time, Bud, but in this one case your are right on. We need to extricate from the morass of the Middle East generally, and Afghanistan particularly, ASAP.

I agree but don't hold out much hope of that ever happening. Obama said he was going to shut down Guantanamo, which has yet to happen. He says a lot of crap he can't produce so, its probably not advisable to hold our breath on Afghanistan, much less the middle east. Sad as that may be.

Curtism
12-07-2010, 03:27 PM
Gravity pulls downward, to move in an upward direction requires energy to overcome gravity. Sailors might look at this as up current vs with the tide. From the top has gravity working. Old Guard has the money. Give them an opportunity and a profit along with innovative ideas and a willing work force and miracles will fall from the top like snowflakes. Or, if you want to try to push this heavy load from an other direction............

Trickle down? Haven't we been trying that?

I have to tell you, Bud, that these miraculous snowflakes you describe melt before they hit the ground. Always have.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 03:28 PM
I agree but don't hold out much hope of that ever happening. Obama said he was going to shut down Guantanamo, which has yet to happen. He says a lot of crap he can't produce so, its probably not advisable to hold our breath on Afghanistan, much less the middle east. Sad as that may be.

I knew it was a lie or at least beyond happening before he was elected...I was told that bricklayers were idiots by the loftier folks here

Glen Longino
12-07-2010, 03:39 PM
Think about it JOhn...who whines the most about WM? They then complain that the reasoning is that Chinese are making the products. Racism is the only and most logical answer here. I believe that the left hold the record for racism anyway, don't they?

Chinese is not a race, Phillip, it's a "nationality".

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 03:48 PM
Chinese is not a race, Phillip, it's a "nationality".

gimme a break Glen...don't act like lj

pefjr
12-07-2010, 03:51 PM
Trickle down? Haven't we been trying that?

I have to tell you, Bud, that these miraculous snowflakes you describe melt before they hit the ground. Always have.We have two or three lost generations. If under 50, you are probably a member.

Ed Harrow
12-07-2010, 03:53 PM
We're totally screwed. The US economy is headed for a black hole.

When certain persons can't be bothered to even consider advising someone who's struggled and overcome much adversity, and who's become recognized state-wide for his/her skills and abilities, well that pretty much seals the deal. I often struggle with the concept of Christian behavior, but worrying about money more than one's neighbors doesn't seem to me to be Christian as I understand it.

We're toast.

Milo Christensen
12-07-2010, 04:06 PM
What are you talking about, Ed? Whoosh - waves hand over head.

Glen Longino
12-07-2010, 04:06 PM
gimme a break Glen...don't act like lj

Heheh!
Give me a break, don't act like Popeye!;)

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 04:09 PM
We're totally screwed. The US economy is headed for a black hole.

When certain persons can't be bothered to even consider helping someone who's struggled and overcome much adversity, and who's become recognized state-wide for his/her skills and abilities, well that pretty much seals the deal. I often struggle with the concept of Christian behavior, but worrying about money more than one's neighbors doesn't seem to me to be Christian as I understand it.

We're toast.

Going to Columbia and Harvard should not be such a hardship...

Ed Harrow
12-07-2010, 04:21 PM
What are you talking about, Ed? Whoosh - waves hand over head.

Sorry, no more details, but the sanctimonious, at least in this case, are neither at Harvard nor Columbia.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 04:29 PM
Nope not at Harvard or Columbia so what he was.

Oh never mind It ain't worth discussing.

Arbutus
12-07-2010, 04:52 PM
Being a new guy around here, I donít want to over step my welcome. However, I have an opinion. If the country gave a few bucks to the lower income folks, and perhaps that comes in the form of tax breaks, what are they going to do with it? Maybe pile it away in their 401k or some other stock portfolio where it will grow? Not likely, they might buy some bread and beans to put on the table. Another words, they put that money back in circulation, directly helping the economy.

But I guess we could continue to give the rich folks more bucks. I wonder if they will buy the bread and beans or the investments? Seems like they live in a world that I do not benefit from, even though they are using my tax dollars.

Maybe my example is simplistic, but then I donít make over $250k so I see things kind of simplistic. After all, I just own an old wood boat and would like to continue using it.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 04:55 PM
Being a new guy around here, I don’t want to over step my welcome. However, I have an opinion. If the country gave a few bucks to the lower income folks, and perhaps that comes in the form of tax breaks, what are they going to do with it? Maybe pile it away in their 401k or some other stock portfolio where it will grow? Not likely, they might buy some bread and beans to put on the table. Another words, they put that money back in circulation, directly helping the economy.

But I guess we could continue to give the rich folks more bucks. I wonder if they will buy the bread and beans or the investments? Seems like they live in a world that I do not benefit from, even though they are using my tax dollars.

Maybe my example is simplistic, but then I don’t make over $250k so I see things kind of simplistic. After all, I just own an old wood boat and would like to continue using it.

spent mostly on cigarettes and beer...

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 04:56 PM
If you put 100 people in a room for a year and give each one 100,000 bucks who and how many would be holding the money after that year?

john l
12-07-2010, 04:58 PM
Ronnie Reagan - Voodoo 1
Bush Jr. - Voodoo 2
Obama - Voodoo 3

The question is will it work on the US, one of the parties or on all?
the US is doomed scenario is obvious, but how could voodoo 3 affect
The republican or democratic party?

switters
12-07-2010, 05:05 PM
spent mostly on cigarettes and beer...

yuppie elitist!
:rolleyes:

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 05:08 PM
I agree but don't hold out much hope of that ever happening. Obama said he was going to shut down Guantanamo, which has yet to happen. He says a lot of crap he can't produce so, its probably not advisable to hold our breath on Afghanistan, much less the middle east. Sad as that may be.

*sigh*

Little bit of a short memory there, Skippy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/politics/21detain.html

The expression you are looking for is "hypocritical NIMBY vote mongering Senator", not "crap President".

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 05:18 PM
yuppie elitist!
:rolleyes:

nope...lifetime of construction work and observation

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 05:22 PM
Being a new guy around here, I don’t want to over step my welcome. However, I have an opinion. If the country gave a few bucks to the lower income folks, and perhaps that comes in the form of tax breaks, what are they going to do with it? Maybe pile it away in their 401k or some other stock portfolio where it will grow? Not likely, they might buy some bread and beans to put on the table. Another words, they put that money back in circulation, directly helping the economy.

But I guess we could continue to give the rich folks more bucks. I wonder if they will buy the bread and beans or the investments? Seems like they live in a world that I do not benefit from, even though they are using my tax dollars.

Maybe my example is simplistic, but then I don’t make over $250k so I see things kind of simplistic. After all, I just own an old wood boat and would like to continue using it.

I think Moody's Analytics can answer your question.


“I would tend to wonder how much the tax cut actually influences spending behavior,” said Chris Cornell, an economist who mined government reports back to 1989 for West Chester, Pennsylvania-based Moody’s Analytics. “Spending by the top 5 percent of households seems much more closely tied to business- cycle issues than it does to tax-cut issues.”
The Moody’s research covering couples earning more than $210,000 found that spending by the wealthy is more likely to be influenced by the ups and downs of the stock market than changes in income-tax rates.
Stock-market performance is the “primary factor that is driving the savings of the top 5 percent of households,” said Mustafa Akcay, economist and co-researcher of the savings data.


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-13/rich-americans-save-money-from-tax-cuts-instead-of-spending-moody-s-says.html

jbelow
12-07-2010, 05:25 PM
.... and the rich win again. This is what the American people want, because they just finished an election in which this outcome was determined. Nothing to complain about, the majority rules.

It was a win , win , win , for every class of people. Everyone gets to keep more of their earned dollars. Only crooks and politicians rob people. The rich will still pay a higher percentage of their money to government and provide jobs for us poor people.

jbelow
12-07-2010, 05:33 PM
BO the Messiah does not look like a Messiah. BO is what he always was. The lame had trouble seeing through his BS.

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 05:34 PM
It was a win , win , win , for every class of people. Everyone gets to keep more of their earned dollars. Only crooks and politicians rob people. The rich will still pay a higher percentage of their money to government and provide jobs for us poor people.

I don't have that faith in the gov managing money. Give them $1.00 and they will spend or borrow $1.50

But if you do, go ahead rely on the gov.

McMike
12-07-2010, 06:19 PM
Sorry, no more details, but the sanctimonious, at least in this case, are neither at Harvard nor Columbia.

Are you intentionally being cryptic?

McMike
12-07-2010, 06:35 PM
nope...lifetime of construction work and observation

I agree Phillip but I still think the working class is not paid enough in proportion to most compinie's profit margins. There needs to be a shift. However it's hard to take a guy seriously when he says he can't get ahead while spending $10 a day on smokes and $8 on a sixpack; that's $126 per week and $6552 per year. It a good point and I've seen my fair share of folks who do just that.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 06:43 PM
I agree Phillip but I still think the working class is not paid enough in proportion to most compinie's profit margins. There needs to be a shift. However it's hard to take a guy seriously when he says he can't get ahead while spending $10 a day on smokes and $8 on a sixpack; that's $126 per week and $6552 per year. It a good point and I've seen my fair share of folks who do just that.

makes me really dislike the tobacco business...even the government subsides paid to tobacco farmers...let em grow something else

johnw
12-07-2010, 07:00 PM
gimme a break Glen...don't act like lj
If memory serves, Yunnan province alone has 23 minority races. China is dominated by the Han, but Manchurians are pretty influential as well. Most of Yunnan used to be a separate empire run by the Bai. The Nahshi dominate their own little territory next to Tibet.

To the people who live there, racial and cultural identity is pretty important. I've met Bai who are still bitter about the cultural artifacts destroyed by the Cultural Revolution, which mainly happened among the Han.

The Uigers have an ongoing separatist movement, and Szechuan province has ethnic tensions. The Communist Party is trying to find a new basis for legitimacy in nationalism, but some groups, such as the Uigers and Tibetans, aren't having it. That's why it's important to remember that 'Chinese' isn't really a race, it's a nation. My brother used to work for a 'Chinese' boss in Thailand, but he belonged to a different ethnic group and spoke a different language than the local 'Chinese,' who treated him as a rank outsider.

Curtism
12-07-2010, 07:19 PM
*sigh*

Little bit of a short memory there, Skippy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/politics/21detain.html

The expression you are looking for is "hypocritical NIMBY vote mongering Senator", not "crap President".

Easy there, Puggy. My memory is just fine and I said nothing about a "crap President'. Ok?

I said, "He says a lot of crap he can't produce." Gitmo is still open for business. The details of that are his job and I lay that at his feet.

Keith Wilson
12-07-2010, 07:33 PM
Well, the president certainly has you guys on the right fooled. You seem to have the impression you won because MoveOn is bitching about this. You didn't. This bill is an old-style compromise, and there's somebody who will hate every single thing in it - laws and sausage, remember? - but it's probably the best that could pass the Senate under the current rules, assuming it passes. It includes some fairly serious short-term stimulus money, reasonably well-targeted, as well as extending unemployment benefits for many millions of people (although those 99-week folks are still screwed). The estate tax bit is loathsome, but if that was what it took to get the rest of it through, that's OK.

One thing has become perfectly clear. Probably the only policy issue Republican legislators sincerely belive in is reducing taxes on the wealthy. The deficit, smaller government, social issues, "family values" - all that BS is just stuff they tell the rubes at home to get votes. Their real goal, the only one they're willing to actually give up something to get, rather than continuing with mere legislative vandalism, is low taxes for the rich.

The hard work on the deficit still needs to be done, but first we need to let the economy recover some more.

Gonzalo
12-07-2010, 07:47 PM
Parody of Shakespeare: "Not that the Republicans hated deficits less, but that they loved billionaires more." from Julius Caesar, Act III, Scene 2

SMARTINSEN
12-07-2010, 07:50 PM
Are you intentionally being cryptic?

It is what he does best :)

john l
12-07-2010, 08:46 PM
what happened to the bi partisan commissions proposal for the deficit and tax change. did that go
out the window or is that looming? dead? doesn't look like their recommendations are accounted
for in the Obama/Republican plan.

Milo Christensen
12-07-2010, 09:22 PM
Are you intentionally being cryptic?

Ed be cryptic? No, analysis indicates that these apparently cryptic statements are a few shots across the bow of a sailing vessel which continues on it's mindless course, heedless of the looming shoals hidden in the mental fog. Mencken once said, A man may be a fool and not know it, but not if he is married. This fool isn't married. No, as always, we can more easily suffer a witty fool than a foolish twit.

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 09:28 PM
Bernie Sanders for President. You heard it here first.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAboE_ahSa4&feature=player_embedded

Either him, Al Franken or Anthony Weiner.

Keith Wilson
12-07-2010, 09:35 PM
Oh joy. Just what we need. Why not Ralph Nader again, the man who brought you president George W. Bush?

F**k ideological purity. We all play the hand we're dealt, presidents as much as anyone.

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 09:49 PM
Oh joy. Just what we need. Why not Ralph Nader again, the man who brought you president George W. Bush?

That is a problem with the electoral system in America, as was illustrated by the results in Florida & Alaska not that long ago, rather than the actual viability of a third party.

The Gentleman Sawyer
12-07-2010, 09:53 PM
Who doesn't this "deal" will be a Godsend to republicans in 2012? They'll spend the next two years telling everybody that the known world will implode without making the cuts permanent, or at least by cutting another "deal" to extend them By then the Democrats, in an election year, will be terrified not to capitulate one more time. I know it's politics, but it's beyond shameful to hold unemployment benefits hostage for an extension of tax cuts. Remember, they wouldn't even agree on raising the threshold to $1 million.

Ken

Eddiebou
12-07-2010, 10:42 PM
Wasn't it Will Rogers who said something like: "Never underestimate the power of a large number of stupid people"?

Keith Wilson
12-07-2010, 10:58 PM
. . . it's beyond shameful to hold unemployment benefits hostage for an extension of tax cuts.Tax cuts for the richest 2%. I completely agree. The current crop of Republicans are far, far beyond shame.


Milo says:
Obama has abandoned a core principle of progressive ideology, pushed with a frenetic fanaticism for 4 years, and that is that the rich must be held responsible for our economic woes by instituting a tax increase on them that solves about 5% of the deficit problem.Therfore Occam's razor would lead one to the conclusion that Mr. Obama is not a "frenetic fanatical progressive" at all, much less a socialist/marxist/fascist or whatever contradictory nonsense the hysterical right believes these days, but rather what he appears to be and what he ran as, a moderate center-left pragmatist more than willing to compromise to get things done. Just a thought.

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 11:00 PM
Wasn't it Will Rogers who said something like: "Never underestimate the power of a large number of stupid people"?

coulda been Stalin

Ed Harrow
12-07-2010, 11:05 PM
It is what he does best :)

Thank you! (I think ;) )

Hey, but here's a fun chart. I know charts aren't my 'job' as I'm the resident cryptic, but here ya go!

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g65/wlgtoo/WBF/UStaxrevenuesource.jpg

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 11:09 PM
coulda been Palin

ftfy

:)

Garret
12-07-2010, 11:28 PM
For those who shop at L.L. Bean.Do you not think that this store that has been here since 1928 didn't force smaller stores out of business in its day and therefore hurt the local economy? So L,L, Bean is okay to shop at but Walmarts isn't sounds a little hypocritical.

Nuff said on the subject of hurting the local economy. Any store that comes into an area will do this no matter what it is.

Just have to toss something in here on the subject of LL Bean.

Before I do, I must caveat this by stating that as I write this I am wearing a Beans shirt & Beans jeans. A large percentage of my wardrobe is from Beans - mostly because they have tall sizes that were not made by a tent maker.

With that out of the way, take a look at the tags on the Beans products. My shirt was made in Malaysia & the jeans in Sri Lanka. Another shirt from them was made in Vietnam. It's not that I have an issue with that, but one should be clear that most folks in the clothing world manufacture at least some of their products overseas.

The issue with WalMart (as has been hashed over on many threads here) is mostly their vendor policies & how abusive they are.

To get back to the thread topic:

Once again Keith is not just "trying to be reasonable" - he's hit the nail on the head.

Obama compromised to get the best deal he could with people who care only about their rich friends & who have done a fabulous job of hoodwinking much of the US. The Reps will go for this even though it raises the debt. Think long & hard about what that says about all their "promises".

Bernie is an interesting guy & it won't surprise me a bit to see him attempt the filibuster. Remember - he is not a Dem - he is an independent who caucuses with the Dems but splits when he thinks doing so is appropriate. He is also a surprisingly good politician.

I don't remember who said (earlier in this thread) Dems = Tax & Spend, Reps = Borrow & Spend - but well said! A perfect summation of current Republican hypocrisy.

Glen Longino
12-07-2010, 11:39 PM
coulda been Stalin

No, it could not.
Stalin would have said, "Never underestimate the 'weakness' of a large number of stupid people".

Phillip Allen
12-07-2010, 11:43 PM
ftfy

:)

well, I ain't in on the joke

Ed Harrow
12-07-2010, 11:44 PM
I should point out that Andrew Sullivan has a different take:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/12/obama-president-mcconnell-sucker.html

which he sums up thusly:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUq9hynzCVo&feature=player_embedded

I still don't see how we'll ever turn this ship around.

Ed Harrow
12-07-2010, 11:47 PM
...I don't remember who said (earlier in this thread) Dems = Tax & Spend, Reps = Borrow & Spend - but well said! A perfect summation of current Republican hypocrisy.

That ain't just current, it's been going on for 30 years...

Phil Wood wrote a piece on his doing business with Wal-Mart. It weren't favorable.

Pugwash
12-07-2010, 11:49 PM
well, I ain't in on the joke

Fixed That For You.

Phillip Allen
12-08-2010, 12:10 AM
Fixed That For You.

no ya didn't

Pugwash
12-08-2010, 12:21 AM
Just have to toss something in here on the subject of LL Bean.

Before I do, I must caveat this by stating that as I write this I am wearing a Beans shirt & Beans jeans. A large percentage of my wardrobe is from Beans - mostly because they have tall sizes that were not made by a tent maker.

With that out of the way, take a look at the tags on the Beans products. My shirt was made in Malaysia & the jeans in Sri Lanka. Another shirt from them was made in Vietnam. It's not that I have an issue with that, but one should be clear that most folks in the clothing world manufacture at least some of their products overseas.

L.L.Bean has annual sales in the US of over 1.7 Billion dollars.

Is there any surprise that their products are manufactured overseas?

The problem is that they all portray themselves as "American" companies, as the Levis ad shows. Yet they fail to live up to their hype.

They contribute nothing, while flying a flag, and suck money out of local economies.


The issue with WalMart (as has been hashed over on many threads here) is mostly their vendor policies & how abusive they are.

To get back to the thread topic:

No argument there.


Once again Keith is not just "trying to be reasonable" - he's hit the nail on the head.

Obama compromised to get the best deal he could with people who care only about their rich friends & who have done a fabulous job of hoodwinking much of the US. The Reps will go for this even though it raises the debt. Think long & hard about what that says about all their "promises".

Bernie is an interesting guy & it won't surprise me a bit to see him attempt the filibuster. Remember - he is not a Dem - he is an independent who caucuses with the Dems but splits when he thinks doing so is appropriate. He is also a surprisingly good politician.

I don't remember who said (earlier in this thread) Dems = Tax & Spend, Reps = Borrow & Spend - but well said! A perfect summation of current Republican hypocrisy.

I'm not sure.

The Slacktivists dragged themselves out of their mothers basements, eyes blinking, to fill the National Mall with more people than Glen Beck could muster, for Comedy Central.

And the Slacktivists are f*#king pissed at this recent turn of events. Bernie Sanders server has probably crashed due to the incoming messages of support.

If it will actually transpire into a real movement, I don't know. But just in case....

I'll leave this here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NEoesmnYU4&feature=channel

S.V. Airlie
12-08-2010, 07:34 AM
Ed be cryptic? No, analysis indicates that these apparently cryptic statements are a few shots across the bow of a sailing vessel which continues on it's mindless course, heedless of the looming shoals hidden in the mental fog. Mencken once said, A man may be a fool and not know it, but not if he is married. This fool isn't married. No, as always, we can more easily suffer a witty fool than a foolish twit. No know Milo I don't give a damn about your efforts as well as a few others to make me toe the line. Blinders went out with the buggy. You are not always right, you are led by the nose. I just and figure oyt who holds the reins.

And he did go to Harvard and Columbia. He grew up in the late 70s and early 80s in America. In a decade where attempting to balance the race issues with quotas with attempts to make education more diversified etc. Remember Bakke... Granted it was harder to make it but it was a lot easier than it was. He obviously had a willingness to and ability to succeed. But I would not call him a God.

If Isaid the sky s blue you'd say I was wrong.

So be it.. the bell is ringing hop to it, follow the pack.

paladin
12-08-2010, 12:06 PM
What do you do with Tax Credits when you make 70K a year and pay no taxes...(or make even less)...it doesn't put another bean on the table or a spoonful of rice.......

S.V. Airlie
12-08-2010, 12:10 PM
What do you do with Tax Credits when you make 70K a year and pay no taxes...(or make even less)...it doesn't put another bean on the table or a spoonful of rice.......


You can't do much with them as far as I can tell. But that is gonna be what is done in 2014

Garret
12-08-2010, 12:20 PM
L.L.Bean has annual sales in the US of over 1.7 Billion dollars.

Is there any surprise that their products are manufactured overseas?

The problem is that they all portray themselves as "American" companies, as the Levis ad shows. Yet they fail to live up to their hype.

They contribute nothing, while flying a flag, and suck money out of local economies.



I wouldn't say Beans contributes nothing. Does it contribute as much as it could? No. It does however, act as an anchor store for a town (Freeport, ME) & several malls (N. Conway & Concord, NH). It also employs a huge # of people in Maine & pays above average wages & treats their employees with far more dignity than many places.

Beans has never made their own stuff - they contract to other companies. A friend who was a buyer for them put it quite bluntly: "Show me where I can get clothes of the same quality made in North America within 50% of the cost & I'll buy 'em." Couldn't have anything to do with that top 2% shipping jobs overseas now could it?

johnw
12-08-2010, 02:23 PM
Washington Monthly had a nice little chart on the compromise:


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/

A VISUAL BREAKDOWN.... Analysis of any compromise is invariably going to focus on who got what, and in this case, the New York Times offers this breakdown (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/08/business/economy/08leonhardt.html?_r=1) of the tax policy agreement between the White House and congressional Republicans.

Of its estimated $900 billion-plus cost over two years, roughly $120 billion covers the high-end tax cuts and the estate tax cut, $450 billion covers Mr. Obama's wish list and $360 billion covers the tax cut extensions both parties favored.
Tim Fernholz asked rhetorically (http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=12&year=2010&base_name=who_got_what_in_the_tax_deal#122853), "Was anyone else expecting a $450 billion stimulus this year? Me neither."
I thought I'd go ahead and create a visual for this. The left column shows the cost of the Republicans' high-end tax cuts in the deal; the middle column shows the cost of President Obama's progressive priorities like an extension of unemployment benefits; and the right column shows the cost of the tax cuts for those making under $250,000, which both parties generally supported. (The y axis is in billions of dollars.)


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/taxdealchart.jpg

Wow. A compromise that solves at least some problems, but fails all tests of ideological purity. I was hoping some kind of pragmatism would break out in Washington.

dskira
12-08-2010, 02:26 PM
I don't know I am no doctor.
As for his political performances, I see nothing wrong.

Keith Wilson
12-09-2010, 08:17 AM
The cost of clothing manufacture is mostly hand labor. It requires almost no education and not much capital, just sewing machines and an easily-learned manual skill. Since the invention of the sewing machine, nobody has managed to automate it further (i.e. increase the productivity of an individual worker). Thus, for the past 200 years, it has gone where wages are lowest. In this case, we all benefit from the fact that that a shirt doesn't cost 3X as much. (Including the person in Cameroon who sewed it.)

Leftists are rarely satisfied with things as they are; that's why they're not conservatives. The left-leaning chattering classes are upset about this. The folks who showed up for the Rally to Restore Sanity understand better. MoveOn has sent me three e-mails complaining about it so far; I wrote back and explained politely why in this case they should hold their nose, sit down, and shut up.


A compromise that solves at least some problems, but fails all tests of ideological purity.Exactly. Can we now please have an end to the ridiculous talk about how Obama's really a Marxist whose one desire is to confiscate all your wealth?

Phillip Allen
12-09-2010, 08:28 AM
Go Keith!

SMARTINSEN
12-09-2010, 08:40 AM
Can we now please have an end to the ridiculous talk about how Obama's really a Marxist whose one desire is to confiscate all your wealth?

Probably not, he is a Muslim, too.

Milo Christensen
12-09-2010, 09:02 AM
. . . Can we now please have an end to the ridiculous talk about how Obama's really a Marxist whose one desire is to confiscate all your wealth?

Only if there's a compromise regarding ending the more outrageous statements about the Republican party.

S.V. Airlie
12-09-2010, 09:05 AM
I think the gem was Pelosi stating ( paraphrase...)

We won't know what is in the bill until we pass it. (healthcare)

Milo Christensen
12-09-2010, 09:09 AM
I love the way Jamie rewrites history without a thought or a care in the world for what was actually said. The world according to Jamie is not the world the rest of us live in. What she actually said:


“But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.

S.V. Airlie
12-09-2010, 09:16 AM
I paraphrased and she said it at a news break..Nothing wrong with what I wrote unless she waswrong to begin with. Go ahead say what you want. You spin thing like a top call the kettleblack..

Milo Christensen
12-09-2010, 09:25 AM
A direct quote, not a "paraphrase" is not spin. The laugh is that you're trying to spin it that Pelosi was wrong to begin with. She said what she meant and meant what she said. Admit that you're just too damn lazy to look any thing up, even though it takes only a second or two to Google to come to a complete transcript. No, it's all about an unending mindless stream of unconsciousness for you. But you have a responsibility when posting on forum like this to get things correct and I intend to hold your toes to the fire until you stop the mindless blather and do a bit of research before posting.

S.V. Airlie
12-09-2010, 09:27 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITyy1-BUGu8

Well here is a senator twisting in the wind about who had read the bill. Fox news granted. I'm sure you will find fault with that. So maybe Pelosi was not just talking to us peons

Pugwash
12-09-2010, 09:36 AM
Try this. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=nancy+pelosi+on+health)

Does it help?

TomF
12-09-2010, 10:19 AM
Probably not, he is a Muslim, too.Don't forget "Godless." You can't be a real Marxist without, as many have reminded us on the forum here before.

Which makes Obama a Godless Marxist Muslim.

This just gets better and better, eh? :D

Milo Christensen
12-09-2010, 10:45 AM
Don't forget "Godless." You can't be a real Marxist without, as many have reminded us on the forum here before.

Which makes Obama a Godless Marxist Muslim.

This just gets better and better, eh? :D

You forgot the part where he isn't even a real American born citizen and therefore can't be POTUS. Let's keep the list complete.

leikec
12-09-2010, 10:49 AM
You forgot the part where he isn't even a real American born citizen and therefore can't be POTUS. Let's keep the list complete.



He can't be an American citizen. Luke Scott explained it to me over brats and beer.

Jeff C

TomF
12-09-2010, 10:50 AM
You forgot the part where he isn't even a real American born citizen and therefore can't be POTUS. Let's keep the list complete.Absolutely right - mea culpa. Left out "Fascist" too.

Obama is a Godless Marxist Muslim Fascist Kenyan Pseudo-President.

What have I missed?

Milo Christensen
12-09-2010, 10:52 AM
Good enough for this thread, I guess.

John Smith
12-09-2010, 01:17 PM
No support from his own side, and a united front against him on the other side.

More like no support for himself. It's a sad day when 67% of the Americann people want the tax cuts for under $250 ONLY extended, the president believes in that, and his party holds majorities in both houses, and he compromises it away.

So as to get a larger view, I wrote my dem reps and the DNC several months ago and urged them as strongly as I could to not debate of which Bush tax cuts to extend. Rather, they should work on Obama tax cuts with which to replace the Bush tax cuts, then let the Bush cuts expire.

My problem with this agreement he made is that he chose not to fight for what is not only the right thing to do, but the popular thing to do. This agreement would be more palatable to me if it had been contingent on FIRST repealing DADT, passing START, and passing the Dream Act. As it is, he seems to have created a situation where, two years from now, we'll be having this same debate again, likely with the same results.

Had he chosen to take a firmer stand, he had the Debt Commission as cover to suport the idea that we, as a nation, cannot afford these tax cuts, and if they are extended, they are on borrowed money. They will likely lead to government services being cut elsewhere. Say to the public, for example, "We extend these tax cuts, social security benefits may have to be cut." Argue services, not numbers.

If these tax cuts go through as Obama has negotiated, and the republicans do NOT allow DADT to be repealed, START to pass, or the Dream act to pass, they will, I believe, have achieve their goal of making him a one term president.

Had he held firm, the worst that would have happened, aside from these other bills not passing, is all the tax rates would return to Clinton's rates. One could make a case for this being a good thing.

If we step back and view a wider picture, we see coming into view a vote on raising the debt ceiling. These tax cuts will make that more necessary than it would have been if they all expire, or if the top end only expire. Get these tax cuts in place, refuse to raise the debt ceiling, and things will get very interesting.

Through all of this, basic truths seem to be ignored. Giving money to the lower end to spend is only a blip in its improvement to our economy, because they'll spend it on stuff made elsewhere.

At some point the American people need a president who tells them the simple truth: there is no free lunch. We need a government to seriously look at how to create jobs in this country, and that includes an honest discussion on how our employer based healthcare system isn't helping.

Meantime, let us not forget, in this insanity, the 99'ers got zero, and federal employees get a wage freeze. The wealthy get their huge tax cuts. Federal workers get a pay freeze. The long term unemployed get nothing, Social Security and Civil Service retirees get no COLA.

Something is seriously wrong somewhere in this picture.

John Smith
12-09-2010, 01:23 PM
It appears to be so. They've been voting for it since Reagan and, despite their unhappiness, seem to be enthusiastic to continue.

This is the 3rd generation now buying this story line.

Is there anywhere where this isn't the case?

Actually, the polls I've seen show 67% of the people support extending only those tax cuts for the first $250k

I also think the election was really misread. All the Obama supporters I worked with during his election, hold the economy against him in no way. We are disappointed that Gitmo is still open, and from our perspective, that is because he gave in to the republican spin that we can't keep these people in our maximum security prisons. We had expected that trials faor these detainees would have been well under way, in civilian courts, long ago, but he caved on that, also. We recognize that single payer had no chance of being the final health care bill, but we would have liked it to be on the table long enough for some of its supporters to make the case, so that it might be better understood by more people.

My disappointment is that he seems unwilling to fight for those principles we believed he held deeply.

John Smith
12-09-2010, 01:26 PM
Lets face it, most of the voting public is not only ignorant, but selfish. I think most western nations suffer from the same problems in government.... blame the politician for everything, and do nothing yourself. Let major lobbyists influence what happen, and when a courageous politician proposes change, abandon him/her at the first sign of trouble or hardship. The difference between the USA and other nations is that it relies more on wealth and good times. The safety nets in a lot of other "socialist" countries is a lot wider and deeper, so the pain is lessened when things get rough. The lack of regulation in the US systems helps when times are good, but heaven forbid things go bad.

One could make a very strong argument that the most significant poll taken was the one that showed 46% of our public does not know the republicans won a majority in the house.

I do think, however, that more and more Americans are beginning to realize that there's no free lunch. Government services must be paid for.

S.V. Airlie
12-09-2010, 01:28 PM
No one seems to want those alleged terrorists tried anywhere near them. Not in their towns anyway. Wasn't Poughkeepie trying to get court cases held there? I am guessing the response was "No way, not here." Kinda hard to have a trial in a place here in the US.

John Smith
12-09-2010, 01:30 PM
This last election has made me question the rationality of the US voter. Since they are unhappy about the collapse of the economy they decided to put those that brought about the collapse back into power.
Since you live neaby you probably know that Ohio has a Republican governor in the wings. He says all the right buzz words but he doesn't like to talk about his last job. He was a front man for GOLDMAN SACHS in Columbus. He was there to push Goldman's many dicey products on our state's government. I hope the "Below I-70" voters are happy with him but I doubt he will be inclined to rain any blessings on them.
My take on Obama is that, being a very intelligent individual, he knows there is no quick economic answer in sight. He is in a disadvantageous position at the moment but he could deliver a blow to Republican aspirations in 2012 by painting their promises as hollow. They did the bidding of their wealthy masters while the rest of America got very little of the jobs that were promised.

The voter is not necessarily rational or well informed. It's my personal view that the media, with it's great voice yelling about the filibuster proof majority led many to believe the democrats had te ability to get whatever they wanted. That filibuster proof majority was an illusion.

Pugwash
12-09-2010, 01:31 PM
If these tax cuts go through as Obama has negotiated, and the republicans do NOT allow DADT to be repealed, START to pass, or the Dream act to pass, they will, I believe, have achieve their goal of making him a one term president.The Dream Act passed the House yesterday, although it's unlikely to make it through the Senate apparently.

John Smith
12-09-2010, 01:38 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITyy1-BUGu8

Well here is a senator twisting in the wind about who had read the bill. Fox news granted. I'm sure you will find fault with that. So maybe Pelosi was not just talking to us peons

Actually, I'm sure if you put her statement in context, it makes perfect sense. The bill, at that time, was not in its final form. At that time she didn't kinow what the final form would actually be, as some of it was still being tweeked, for lack of a better word.

John Smith
12-09-2010, 01:41 PM
No one seems to want those alleged terrorists tried anywhere near them. Not in their towns anyway. Wasn't Poughkeepie trying to get court cases held there? I am guessing the response was "No way, not here." Kinda hard to have a trial in a place here in the US.

Seems that way, but isn't it all based on stupidity? Consider the logic(?) that if we try them in NYC, the bad guys will attack us in NYC. If putting these guys on trial triggers an attack, they can target NYC regardless of the location or forum of the trial. Meanwhile, detaining them forever doesn't seem to anger those who would attack us.

My point is that these things were important to a large chunk of the people who voted for Obama and the democrats in '08

Paul Pless
12-09-2010, 01:41 PM
The Dream Act passed the House yesterday, although it's unlikely to make it through the Senate apparently.if it does pass are you gonna join the marines?:D

John Smith
12-09-2010, 01:43 PM
The Dream Act passed the House yesterday, although it's unlikely to make it through the Senate apparently.

That's been the routine.

There is a distinct possibility that DADT will not be repealed by Congress. Also a possibility that the Justice Dept. will win its appeal in court. That's another thing on my list: why appeal the court decision? The war was won.

Pugwash
12-09-2010, 01:43 PM
if it does pass are you gonna join the marines?:D

I have to get my GED first.

Paul Pless
12-09-2010, 01:45 PM
There is a distinct possibility that DADT will not be repealed by Congress. Another show of lack of courage on Obama's part, if he really held the conviction that DADT was wrong, that DADT was a civil rights abuse, he could have had the justice dept stand down on its appeal.

S.V. Airlie
12-09-2010, 01:47 PM
Actually, I'm sure if you put her statement in context, it makes perfect sense. The bill, at that time, was not in its final form. At that time she didn't kinow what the final form would actually be, as some of it was still being tweeked, for lack of a better word. True lets have everyone do just that. As nip here and asnip there.A great deal is written here out of context.

johnw
12-09-2010, 01:59 PM
Another show of lack of courage on Obama's part, if he really held the conviction that DADT was wrong, that DADT was a civil rights abuse, he could have had the justice dept stand down on its appeal.
He thinks its repeal should go through the political process, which is looking like it's not going to happen. More likely, it will keep losing in the courts and be forced on the military, most of which seems to want it repealed. If that's got to make sense, do I have to be sober?

johnw
12-09-2010, 02:00 PM
More like no support for himself. It's a sad day when 67% of the Americann people want the tax cuts for under $250 ONLY extended, the president believes in that, and his party holds majorities in both houses, and he compromises it away.

So as to get a larger view, I wrote my dem reps and the DNC several months ago and urged them as strongly as I could to not debate of which Bush tax cuts to extend. Rather, they should work on Obama tax cuts with which to replace the Bush tax cuts, then let the Bush cuts expire.

My problem with this agreement he made is that he chose not to fight for what is not only the right thing to do, but the popular thing to do. This agreement would be more palatable to me if it had been contingent on FIRST repealing DADT, passing START, and passing the Dream Act. As it is, he seems to have created a situation where, two years from now, we'll be having this same debate again, likely with the same results.

Had he chosen to take a firmer stand, he had the Debt Commission as cover to suport the idea that we, as a nation, cannot afford these tax cuts, and if they are extended, they are on borrowed money. They will likely lead to government services being cut elsewhere. Say to the public, for example, "We extend these tax cuts, social security benefits may have to be cut." Argue services, not numbers.

If these tax cuts go through as Obama has negotiated, and the republicans do NOT allow DADT to be repealed, START to pass, or the Dream act to pass, they will, I believe, have achieve their goal of making him a one term president.

Had he held firm, the worst that would have happened, aside from these other bills not passing, is all the tax rates would return to Clinton's rates. One could make a case for this being a good thing.

If we step back and view a wider picture, we see coming into view a vote on raising the debt ceiling. These tax cuts will make that more necessary than it would have been if they all expire, or if the top end only expire. Get these tax cuts in place, refuse to raise the debt ceiling, and things will get very interesting.

Through all of this, basic truths seem to be ignored. Giving money to the lower end to spend is only a blip in its improvement to our economy, because they'll spend it on stuff made elsewhere.

At some point the American people need a president who tells them the simple truth: there is no free lunch. We need a government to seriously look at how to create jobs in this country, and that includes an honest discussion on how our employer based healthcare system isn't helping.

Meantime, let us not forget, in this insanity, the 99'ers got zero, and federal employees get a wage freeze. The wealthy get their huge tax cuts. Federal workers get a pay freeze. The long term unemployed get nothing, Social Security and Civil Service retirees get no COLA.

Something is seriously wrong somewhere in this picture.
So, you think it's worth losing the extension of the unemployment benefits to prevent the extension of the top-bracket taxes? That really is the choice here.

Osborne Russell
12-09-2010, 02:02 PM
But you have a responsibility when posting on forum like this to get things correct and I intend to hold your toes to the fire until you stop the mindless blather and do a bit of research before posting.

Sounds mighty like a duty to be rational.

Curtism
12-09-2010, 02:23 PM
F**k ideological purity. We all play the hand we're dealt, presidents as much as anyone.

Well, some are too quick to fold . . .

http://www.tampabay.com/multimedia/archive/00153/thursdaycartoonweb_153277a.jpg

House Democrats just rejected the deal Obama struck with the Reps.

S.V. Airlie
12-09-2010, 02:33 PM
The vote was nonbinding...the dem caucus voted resoundingly no.