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Sam F
12-06-2010, 04:52 PM
Yes there is a Santa Claus... today is his feast day!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/120/317163508_fea2ea9f01_o.jpg

Pugwash
12-06-2010, 05:04 PM
Parallels have been drawn between the legend of Sinterklaas and the figure of Odin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin), a major god amongst the Germanic peoples and worshipped in North and Western Europe prior to Christianization. Since some elements of the Sinterklaas celebration are unrelated to Christianity, there are theories regarding the pagan origins of various customs of the holiday stemming from areas where the Germanic peoples were Christianized and retained elements of their indigenous traditions, surviving in various forms into modern depictions of Sinterklaas. Non-Christian elements in Sinterklaas that arguably could have been of pagan origin:


Sinterklaas rides the roof tops with his gray horse Amerigo; Odin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin) rides the sky with his gray horse Sleipnir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleipnir).
Sinterklaas and Odin are both depicted with a long beard.
Sinterklaas has a staff and mischievous helpers with black faces; Odin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odin) has a spear and black ravens as his attributes.
It has been also claimed that the tradition of children placing their boots filled with carrots, straw or sugar near the chimney for the gray horse of Sinterklaas goes back to pre-Christian North Western Europe, where children would place their boots near the chimney for Odin's flying horse, Sleipnir, to eat.



Actually yesterday running into this morning was his feast day.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2010, 05:07 PM
Good post,
My namesake is after all the patron saint of sailors ships and shipping.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:11 PM
"Parallels have been drawn between the legend of Sinterklaas and the figure of Odin,..."

Nope



Actually yesterday running into this morning was his feast day.

Nope

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:13 PM
Humm....
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_aoxvhOU2Auk/SxvcQBjk6NI/AAAAAAAAAXQ/nXhMr7islNc/s1600/nicholas-punches-arius.jpg

Whatcha reckon he's doin' in both pictures?

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 05:15 PM
Looks like he can't keep his hands off the other guy LOL

Just pulling your leg samf

Peerie Maa
12-06-2010, 05:17 PM
Sinterklaas rides the roof tops with his gray horse Amerigo; Odin rides the sky with his gray horse Sleipnir.
Current popular academic opinion is that the sleigh on roofs and chimney thing comes from the far north where snow was deep enough to block doorways, so that the only way folk, including visitors, could get in was through the smoke hole in the roof.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:17 PM
Looks like he can't keep his hands off the other guy LOL

Just pulling your leg samf

Please keep your hand off my leg!

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-06-2010, 05:18 PM
Do Santy Claus, the Easter bunny and Jesus ever end up in the same picture?

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 05:18 PM
Well some of us are leg men.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2010, 05:19 PM
Do Santy Claus, the Easter bunny and Jesus ever end up in the same picture?

Some marketing exec is bound to try that someday.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-06-2010, 05:21 PM
Why not? It's all the same story.

Pugwash
12-06-2010, 05:24 PM
Nope

[citation needed]


Nope

[citation needed]




My namesake is after all the patron saint of sailors ships and shipping.Are you quite sure that's the Old Nick you were named after?

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:24 PM
Well some of us are leg men.

Do you attend many hangings?

Nicholas Scheuer
12-06-2010, 05:24 PM
My parents always left walnuts in our shoes the night before Saint Nicholas Day.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:26 PM
[citation needed]

St Nicholas is hardly Odin.


[citation needed]

Sorry, but Dec 6 is Saint Nicholas' feast day. Even Wikipedia says so.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2010, 05:26 PM
Are you quite sure that's the Old Nick you were named after?

My parents admitted to being unsure on that point. That's why my middle name is Paul, just to be on the safe side.

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 05:28 PM
Do you attend many hangings?

Nope but an ancestor would have been hanged if the English had caught him.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-06-2010, 05:28 PM
I sometimes wonder why the Christians were so successful at stealing a pagan holiday. I suppose if you give your superhero powers such as walking on water, then taking over the solstice is relatively benign.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:31 PM
Humm.... Whatcha reckon he's doin' in both pictures?

Nobody knows?

Hint: The recipient of Saint Nicholas' attentions is a chap named Arius and the occasion is the Council of Nicea.

Here's part of the aftermath:
http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Arts/painting/religious-paint/icon-paint/introd/byzanicon/sinnic.jpg

Ya'll do understand icons I presume...

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:32 PM
I sometimes wonder why the Christians were so successful at stealing a pagan holiday... then taking over the solstice is relatively benign.

Nope. The solstice does not fall on Dec 25.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:32 PM
Nope but an ancestor would have been hanged if the English had caught him.

Do you know where "pulling his leg" comes from?

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 05:33 PM
No samf I actually don't. I guess it was to break a person's neck after hanging

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:34 PM
No samf I actually don't

Sorry... " Word Detective explains the expression may have something to do with public hangings. Apparently people used to pull on the legs of the condemned in order to speed up their asphyxiation."

You see hangings used to be a very low tech affair - not the relatively sophisticated trap-door gallows floor in 19th Century America and elsewhere.
Due to the slow excruciating process pulling someone's leg was an act of mercy.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2010, 05:36 PM
I sometimes wonder why the Christians were so successful at stealing a pagan holiday. I suppose if you give your superhero powers such as walking on water, then taking over the solstice is relatively benign.

I think that the idea was a fair trade. Easter was the most important festival, but they needed a selling point to convert the northern European pagans, so the church set up a mass to celebrate the fact of Christ's birth as a substitute for Yule.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:40 PM
Here's an example for you Arlie:

In May of 1606, English Jesuit Henry Garnet was executed at London’s St Paul's Cathedral. His crime was to be the confessor of several members of the Gunpowder Plot. Many spectators thought that the sentence too severe, and "With a loud cry of 'hold, hold' they stopped the hangman cutting down the body while Garnet was still alive. Others pulled the priest's legs … which was traditionally done to ensure a speedy death".

It seems the people were quite on board with the crown on this particular execution...

Pugwash
12-06-2010, 05:41 PM
http://www.cartage.org.lb/en/themes/Arts/painting/religious-paint/icon-paint/introd/byzanicon/sinnic.jpg

Ya'll do understand icons I presume...

Erm.....unhappy icon is unhappy?

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 05:43 PM
Here's an example for you Arlie:


It seems the people were quite on board with the crown on this particular execution... I'm sure James the 1st or 6th depending would have been

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:44 PM
Peter is working at cross purposes with himself. Too bad!
Nevertheless, unless I am very much mistaken 21 (or 22) ≠ 25. Maybe my math isn't up to par... but if you're gonna "steal" a holiday - at least get the date right!

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:46 PM
t seems the people were quite on board with the crown on this particular execution...

I'm sure James the 1st or 6th depending would have been

Really? I rather fancy that a King would not deign to assist at public executions - let alone act as that sympathetic crowd did... but I guess you know your history better than I....

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 05:50 PM
t seems the people were quite on board with the crown on this particular execution...


Really? I rather fancy that a King would not deign to assist at public executions - let alone act as that sympathetic crowd did... but I guess you know your history better than I.... Just the opposite I would think.. referring to those who pulled on his leg but then again he was Catholic...but the again is was a plot against him Didn't want to follow in James' and Mary's foot steps

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:52 PM
Erm.....unhappy icon is unhappy?

It depicts a miracle. Saint Nicholas decked Arius the heresiarch. As a result the emperor (he's seated at the center of the first picture) had Nicholas' copy of the Gospels and his pallium (a garment that signified he was a bishop - which he was) confiscated and threw him in prison.
"However, after Nicholas was deposed, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Blessed Virgin Mary visited Nicholas who was being held in a prison cell for his fist-fight with the heretic.

Our Lord Jesus Christ asked Saint Nicholas, "Why are you here?" Nicholas responded, "Because I love you, my Lord and my God."

Christ then presented Nicholas with his copy of the Gospels. Next, the Blessed Virgin vested Nicholas with his episcopal pallium, thus restoring him to his rank as a bishop."

You can see both Jesus and his Mother standing at Saint Nicholas' shoulders. That's a standard icon convention btw.
As both Jesus and Mary outranked the emperor Nicholas was freed and Arius lost his battle to corrupt Catholic Christology.

Pugwash
12-06-2010, 05:55 PM
Sorry, but Dec 6 is Saint Nicholas' feast day. Even Wikipedia says so.

No it doesn't.


Sinterklaas is a traditional Winter holiday figure in the Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands), Belgium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium), Aruba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aruba), Suriname (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suriname), Curacao (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curacao) and Bonaire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonaire); he is celebrated annually on Saint Nicholas' eve (5 December) or, in Belgium, on the morning of 6 December. Originally, the feast celebrates the name day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_day) of Saint Nicholas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas), patron saint of Amsterdam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam), children and sailors. Today, Sinterklaas is not regarded as a Christian celebration any more, and since celebrating Saint's name days is an unknown phenomenon in the historically protestant Netherlands, the Dutch celebrate at the 5th of December his reputed birthday. He is the basis of the mythical holiday figure of Santa Claus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus) in the United States.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2010, 05:55 PM
Peter is working at cross purposes with himself. Too bad!
Nevertheless, unless I am very much mistaken 21 (or 22) ≠ 25. Maybe my math isn't up to par... but if you're gonna "steal" a holiday - at least get the date right!

Now don't get snarky about dates. There is a view that the ancients knew full well that the solstice was on the 21-2nd, but waited a couple of days until they were certain that the days were starting to lengthen before celebrating their reprieve from eternal winter.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:56 PM
Just the opposite I would think.. referring to those who pulled on his leg but then again he was Catholic...but the again is was a plot against him Didn't want to follow in James' and Mary's foot steps

Nah you don't understand the hanging drawing and quartering process. The hanging was only torture - it wasn't supposed to kill the victim. Pulling on the fellow's leg ruined the fun you see.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 05:56 PM
No it doesn't.

See for your self:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

Of course so does the Catholic Church... but what do they know?

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 05:57 PM
Nicholaus called Jesus a God! Ummmm see above passage#33

bobbys
12-06-2010, 05:57 PM
Santie has not come yet or i would be shooting a brand new Red Ryder 20 shot carbine BB gun..

So There!

Pugwash
12-06-2010, 05:59 PM
It depicts a miracle....... etc. etc.

Christ then presented Nicholas with his copy of the Gospels. Next, the Blessed Virgin vested Nicholas with his episcopal pallium, thus restoring him to his rank as a bishop."

Why's he so unhappy then?

Tom Montgomery
12-06-2010, 05:59 PM
Of course "Sinterklass" has virtually nothing to do with "St. Nicklaus."

This is simply another example of Christian incorporation of pagan celebration.

Jesus was not born in December.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 06:01 PM
Pugwash you seem to misunderstand historical chronology:


Nikolaos the Wonderworker... He had a reputation for secret gift-giving, such as putting coins in the shoes of those who left them out for him, and thus became the model for Santa Claus, whose modern name comes from the Dutch Sinterklaas.

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 06:03 PM
Nah you don't understand the hanging drawing and quartering process. The hanging was only torture - it wasn't supposed to kill the victim. Pulling on the fellow's leg ruined the fun you see. Public hanging....Hanging and drawing and quartering is different unless Samf stated more than that it was a hanging. Got to take it on face value here. Sam said hanging.

Better than my ancestor actually I think it was his sister. The guy died but he was so hated and feared the people cut his head off and supposedly placed it on the London Tower.. The head is buried some where in either Cambridge or Oxford. Location unknown

Any truth to this perhaps.. family passed the story down. Is any part true Yes, the guy's head is either at Cambridge or Oxford. There is a plaque

Peerie Maa
12-06-2010, 06:03 PM
Nah you don't understand the hanging drawing and quartering process. The hanging was only torture - it wasn't supposed to kill the victim. Pulling on the fellow's leg ruined the fun you see.

According to one source I just read, he was not condemned to drawing and quartering. The closet Catholics in the crowd simply applied the mercy. The beheading that followed was probably to be carried out with a butchers knife, so they did spare him pain.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 06:04 PM
Why's he so unhappy then?

You don't understand iconography which is understandable - it's alien to your sensibilities. The subjects of icons don't giggle in their depictions.
It's kinda the same reason why you don't see George Washington with a huge grin on the dollar... I mean besides the fact of those dentures.
Or... if you have a jolly $100 bill or two you'd like to send me as refutation please let me know and I'll give you my address.

Tom Montgomery
12-06-2010, 06:06 PM
SammyF: I am thrilled that you embrace pagan tradition!

Santa Claus, like the Easter Bunny, is LOTS of fun for the children and has ZERO to do with Christianity.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 06:08 PM
Public hanging....Hanging and drawing and quartering is different unless Samf stated more than that it was a hanging. Got to take it on face value here. Sam said hanging.

Sure I did. And people did shorten the executed man's suffering in just the way I said.
However the particular example I gave was of drawing etc. Here's the full thing:

On the day of his execution, Fawkes, though weakened by torture, cheated the executioners when he jumped from the gallows, breaking his neck and dying before his disembowelment. Co-conspirator Robert Keyes attempted the same trick; however the rope broke and he was drawn fully conscious. In May of 1606, English Jesuit Henry Garnet was executed at London’s St Paul's Cathedral. His crime was to be the confessor of several members of the Gunpowder Plot. Many spectators thought that the sentence too severe, and "With a loud cry of 'hold, hold' they stopped the hangman cutting down the body while Garnet was still alive. Others pulled the priest's legs … which was traditionally done to ensure a speedy death"

Sorry, I assumed you knew about the incident I quoted...

Sam F
12-06-2010, 06:10 PM
So are we all clear on who the real Saint Nicholas (aka Santa Claus) was?
I hope so!
Supper's awaiting!

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 06:10 PM
Sure I did. And people did shorten the executed man's suffering in just the way I said.
However the particular example I gave was of drawing etc. Here's the full thing:


Sorry, I assumed you knew about the incident I quoted... Didn't know the details Knew who was involved not much about the deaths

Tom Montgomery
12-06-2010, 06:11 PM
You don't understand iconography which is understandable - it's alien to your sensibilities. The subjects of icons don't giggle in their depictions.

Your error is to presume that iconography is only a Christian art form.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 06:11 PM
Nicholaus called Jesus a God!

Yes that's how it works.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 06:12 PM
Didn't know the details Knew who was involved not much about the deaths

Hey it's not like they teach that stuff in schools...

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 06:14 PM
BUT,BUT, there is only one God isn't there?

Question how does the Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Religions differ any why did they separate? I really can't figure that out.

Tom Montgomery
12-06-2010, 06:20 PM
]See for your self:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

OMG! So Wikipedia is your authority? In that case, read it and weep: Santa Claus. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus)

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-06-2010, 06:23 PM
Well, the tradition of the service on St Nicholas Day is that a boy-Bishop is enthroned and directs proceedings.

I am happy to report that the parish of St Mary, Woodbridge complied with this tradition except that, being modernisers, we had a little-girl Bishop, who carried off her part very well, whilst the Lessons and the Gospel were read by other children. It was jolly good fun and a nice idea - better than the traditional Advent sermons - Death, Hell, etc.

So, I've seen a female Bishop (aged six, with pigtails) and lived to tell the tale.

Incidentally I am going to a talk on icons on Friday, and hope to know more thereafter.

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 06:23 PM
My father's cousin took me to the Tolstoy Foundation to a service at Easter. All I can remember was that it was long as in a day long service. She worked for Anna Tolstoy there who was also her cousin and mine..

Tom Montgomery
12-06-2010, 06:46 PM
Jesus was not born on December 25th. And "Santa Claus" was a pagan figure incorporated by the fledgling Christian religion. Enough said... :rolleyes:

I think it is amazing that SammyF has the gronicles to originate such a thread.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2010, 06:53 PM
Tom, stop it.
You are well aware that SmmyF's thread was about Dec 6th, not the 25th. He has been good, even has me on ignore so that he does not get tempted. You should help him be nice, not try to wind him up.

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 06:55 PM
Hey it's not like they teach that stuff in schools...
Not over here. I suspect that few have read it here.

Tom Montgomery
12-06-2010, 06:56 PM
Tom, stop it.
You are well aware that SmmyF's thread was about Dec 6th, not the 25th. He has been good, even has me on ignore so that he does not get tempted. You should help him be nice, not try to wind him up.
I'd leave him alone if he weren't such a freaking maroon.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2010, 06:58 PM
Bit like poking your tongue into a dental cavity?

S.V. Airlie
12-06-2010, 07:00 PM
Morons make great sailors leave is alone I've been blamed enough.

Tom Montgomery
12-06-2010, 07:01 PM
Poking SammyF is more like pulling the hair of the brat sitting in the desk front of me.

Peerie Maa
12-06-2010, 07:08 PM
You'll be dipping Allison's pigtails in the inkwell next ;)

Sam F
12-06-2010, 07:28 PM
You might be clear about it but the Catholic Encyclopedia isn't...
"there is scarcely anything historically certain about him
There is reason to doubt his presence at Nicaea, since his name is not mentioned in any of the old lists of bishops that attended this council.
his alleged miracles"
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11063b.htm

Of course, you're talking about unwitnessed supernatural events as facts...

The fact is that Saint Nicholas existed and is the source for Santa Claus. Them's the facts - like it or not.
If you don't believe in miracles then by all means don't. But do be careful of your contemporary reading material - that might be dangerous to your prejudice.



I almost think you're some kind of monster.

You should see the trouble I go to to hide the stitches!
And speaking of things stitched together...
Sadly you don't understand the nature of encyclopedias.
This entry from the very same source states:

The First Council of Nicaea
First Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church, held in 325 on the occasion of the heresy of Arius (Arianism)...The assembly numbered among its most famous members St. Alexander of Alexandria, Eustathius of Antioch, Macarius of Jerusalem, Eusebius of Nicomedia, Eusebius of Caesarea, and Nicholas of Myra...
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

You see, generally speaking, encyclopedias are collective endeavors. Different authors write different entries and bring their own viewpoints to those entries.
That said, it is true that Saint Nicholas lacks much contemporary documentation - but then that's true for lots of ancient sources - like for instance, undocumented Homer. Not that that particular inconvenience prevented Troy from actually existing.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 07:32 PM
BUT,BUT, there is only one God isn't there?

John 20
27. Then He *said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28. Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29. Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
30. Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
31. but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

Like it or not, there it is.

Tom Montgomery
12-06-2010, 07:38 PM
The fact is that Saint Nicholas existed and is the source for Santa Claus. Them's the facts - like it or not.

A revisionist take on history. The Pagan myth existed prior to the Christian saint. The fact is that Christianity incorporated Pagan myth and celebration.

You claim to have been an undergraduate History major. What history did you study? You clearly are not familiar with early Christian history.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-06-2010, 07:49 PM
I am 100% with Sam, here. So you can have two targets, if you like.

Pagan myths getting grafted onto Christian history do no-one any harm. It is striking to see how many English parish churches in my part of England are well away from their villages - because they are on the sites of pagan temples.

Sam F
12-06-2010, 07:54 PM
I am 100% with Sam, here. So you can have two targets, if you like.

Pagan myths getting grafted onto Christian history do no-one any harm.

Well yes. My wedding band is pagan in origin - and I'm perfectly OK with it too.
What's funny is when secularist-types get all worked into a lather about pagan this and pagan that in Catholicism and/or Christianity in general they sound just like, and hurl the same accusations as, back-woods Fundamentalists.

downthecreek
12-07-2010, 04:28 AM
Santa Claus, like the Easter Bunny, is LOTS of fun for the children and has ZERO to do with Christianity.

No! No! No! No! NO!

The bloke who comes down the chimney and fills the stockings (or in my case, when small, my father's rugby socks - my sister had the right and I had the left and that's how it always had to be) is called FATHER CHRISTMAS.

seanz
12-07-2010, 04:38 AM
Well yes. My wedding band is pagan in origin

Is it just me? Or was anybody else wondering about the pagan band that played at Sam F's wedding?

No? Just me then.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-07-2010, 09:35 AM
http://1stnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/atheist-christmas-billboard.jpg

Allison
12-07-2010, 09:39 AM
Do Santy Claus, the Easter bunny and Jesus ever end up in the same picture?

Only when they take the Tooth fairy out to dinner!

S.V. Airlie
12-07-2010, 09:43 AM
Wabbit is good good roasted

Peerie Maa
12-07-2010, 12:48 PM
I am 100% with Sam, here. So you can have two targets, if you like.

Pagan myths getting grafted onto Christian history do no-one any harm. It is striking to see how many English parish churches in my part of England are well away from their villages - because they are on the sites of pagan temples.

That could also be an effect of t plague. Folk could not move the church, but they could move their cottage away from "contaminated" ground.

Peerie Maa
12-07-2010, 12:52 PM
It's the branch of Christian "history" getting grafted onto the rootstock of pagan myths. Harm and truth are different things. The fact that the present system evolved out of one that is now regarded as myth does nothing to show the truth of the present one. Religion has done harm and religion has done good, but nothing points to the supernatural events of religion as being fact.

Just shows how far the current version can have moved away from His teaching. First Paul put his spin on it, then every gathering of Bishops since. I wonder whether Christ is spinning in his grave, where ever it is.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-07-2010, 12:55 PM
That could also be an effect of the plague. Folk could not move the church, but they could move their cottage away from "contaminated" ground.

The point is much discussed. There are cases, like Beaumont-cum-Moze, in Essex, where this is indeed the explanation, and others where the church stands on the site of a heathen temple and has never had a village round it, like Melton Old Church - where indeed the Victorians got fed up and built a new church in the village!

http://www.suffolkchurches.co.uk/meltonold.htm

Andrew Craig-Bennett
12-07-2010, 12:59 PM
It's the branch of Christian "history" getting grafted onto the rootstock of pagan myths. Harm and truth are different things. The fact that the present system evolved out of one that is now regarded as myth does nothing to show the truth of the present one. Religion has done harm and religion has done good, but nothing points to the supernatural events of religion as being fact.


Beware of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

There were many pagan cults involving dying gods, including gods who were ritually killed in the person of the human whose form they chose to occupy, see Frazer's "The Golden Bough", but these were vegetation and fertility cults. Quite a different thing.

Barry
12-07-2010, 01:17 PM
BUT,BUT, there is only one God isn't there?

Question how does the Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Religions differ any why did they separate? I really can't figure that out.

The council of Nicea. There was a conflict as to whether Christ was a god. This led to further conflict as to God being one in three leading to the Great Schism . The Greek Orthodox church believed that there was only one God(Unitarianism is one result of this belief, this battle was later revisited among Protestant sects during the Reformation: See Calvin versus Michael Servetus ). The winning faction believed that Christ that was a God, hence the Nicean Creed.

varadero
12-07-2010, 02:55 PM
Oh what profit there is in this myth of christ. Leo X. And Sinterklaas was not Saint Nick.

Allison
12-07-2010, 04:02 PM
Nick, usually justa single braid!
Sadly I have to admit to being old enough to have learnt to write at a time when ink wells were still used in the classroom:o

Peerie Maa
12-07-2010, 04:30 PM
Nick, usually justa single braid!
Sadly I have to admit to being old enough to have learnt to write at a time when ink wells were still used in the classroom:o

Na! Low tech village school maybe. ;)

Allison
12-07-2010, 04:33 PM
It's more to do with my aversion to sunlight and my dietary habits acquired from a long ago time!

Peerie Maa
12-07-2010, 04:44 PM
It's more to do with my aversion to sunlight and my dietary habits acquired from a long ago time!

Now who's a troll? ;)

Allison
12-07-2010, 04:58 PM
More like the pointy toothed ones that like wooden boxes for beds!
Nothing sexy at all about trolls!

Peerie Maa
12-07-2010, 05:38 PM
Are you a black ribboner?
http://th08.deviantart.net/fs8/150/i/2005/274/8/9/Black_Ribboner_by_B_Fennec.jpg

Jgillis
12-07-2010, 06:04 PM
Do Santy Claus, the Easter bunny and Jesus ever end up in the same picture?


http://i.min.us/ibekR2.jpg

seanz
12-07-2010, 06:44 PM
Are you a black ribboner?
http://th08.deviantart.net/fs8/150/i/2005/274/8/9/Black_Ribboner_by_B_Fennec.jpg


An outstanding creation......a vampire that doesn't drink blood and does flash photography.