Delta-V sailing dinghy by Northwest Marine Design

[JWC]

I've been sailing my Delta-V for a few years now, and I'm curious if anyone else has built or is building one of these dinghys. I'd be happy to share any info I can.

[URL=http://www.nwmarinedesign.com/deltav.htm]

John

[Wild Wassa]

JWC, I raced an NS14 from time-to-time including in last year's Nationals. I changed classes towards the end of last year, to the Flying Fifteen keelboat. The NS14 is the Delta V without the spinnaker. The Delta V is what North Americans call the Manly Graduate 14, for those who know the MG14.

The NS14 is a development Class and the potential to rig them well is fantastic. I have no shortage of photos if they are of interest to you and want to see some of the latest thoughts on rigging.

The Delta V is the Mark 5, the NS is now upto Mark 13. They are Australia's most highly designed boat. The Delta V is probably Australia's finest export product ... because of the spinnaker (but then I am biased).

They are a first class performance dinghy. Rotate the mast ... and hang on, the surge of power is critical. Are you racing the boat and if so how are you going?

The Forum member Killick has built a Delta V.

Warren.

[ 02-23-2006, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[JWC]

Warren,

I'm curious if Killick is racing his DV with other NS or MG's. If you've been racingthe NS, then I guess your in Australia. I'm in Canada, so it's a portsmouth handicap deal for me. Yes, I'm aware of the MG14 as well.

I love the possibilities that a development class allows. I rigged mine differently than the designer's specs -- self tacking jib, different daggerboard, etc. Currently I'm installing a launcher tube for the kite.

John

[Wild Wassa]

JMC, I saw that Killick posted on the Forum only 3 or 4 days ago, after I hadn't seen a posting from him in a while.

I do have his email address so if he doesn't spot this thread, I can send him an email and draw his attention to the thread, Killick is in Canada and was racing in Tasars while he was building the Delta V (if I remember correctly).

Here are a few of our VYC yardsticks, Victorian Yacht Club yardsticks, they are our standard for dinghies, to help draw a comparison.

101 470 and Flying Dutchman
106 Jollyboat and Cherub
106.5 MG 14 (Manly Graduate 14)
107.5 Tasar
108 NS14 (Northbridge Senior 14)
109 Flying Fifteen
111 The old Classic Flying Fifteens (Uffa Fox's original)
112 Laser
146 Mirror

Warren.

[ 02-27-2006, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Wild Wassa]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/p24fb11d487ef03a39a9d60e43315f2b3/f00f25f4.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid201/pc94c96ac2db0936a85ce58b4f7b1ca55/f00f216a.jpg

Warren.

[ 02-23-2006, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Killick]

Still building <sigh>.

Would hoped to have finished by now but, alas, life happens and other priorities arise.
Things were really looking good that THIS summer was actually going to be the year she'd hit the water. But again priorities have taken a turn (just this week)... so now it's looking like another postponement.

[JWC]

Killick,

I understand the delays. Mine took 4 years due lots of other commitments.

If you need any ideas for completion or things you might want to change let me know. Most of my rigging, including the wing mast, daggerboard, rudder, spin pole mounts are not what the designer specified. All improvements in my mind, but then I'm probably a bit biased.

If you need some motivation, check out Peter Patel-Schneider's website:

http://www-db-out.bell-labs.com/user/pfps/canoe/deltav/

John

[Killick]

Thanks John,

I've been to you're site several times, it's been quite motivating.

I'm planning on a few mods myself. Here's where I am with the build right now:
Bare hull stripped and glassed inside and out.
Carbon fiber boom (done)
Carbon fiber spinnaker pole (done)
The spinnaker pole will be retractable; I've already built its sleeve from carbon, and reinforced the bow area of the hull with additional layers of glass. There will also be a flange of carbon around the sleeve to help handle the stresses in that area.
Both foils are built (sections as per plans) and covered in glass and carbon, with a graphite/epoxy finish. Rudder still needs polishing.
Carbon fiber rudder stock is built different from the plans (didn't seem strong enough at the attachment point of the tiller). My rudder will slide daggerboard style instead of pivot (UK Cherub site has lots of how to info for stuff like this).
The Holt lever vang specified in the plans has been replicated in carbon. Not sure how well this will work as I've never used a lever vang before. I may swap it for an 8:1 cascading vang.
I've also fabbed carbon spreaders for the mast (info on the Swift Solo site).
That's pretty much where I am at this point. 'Tis pretty cold this time of year in Ottawa (-33 wind chill today) so I have to settle for puttering about on small bits until the garage warms up.

The other planned mods include:
Trapeze.
A spinnaker launcher in the foredeck.
A radiused track for the main traveller on a custom carbon thwart that's also radiused and at side-deck level.
Leading several (continuous) control lines to the side decks (the UK Merlin Rocket site has some great examples of this).

Jim, if you've got a few photos kicking around, I'd love to see that self-tacking jib setup. I'm planning on doing the same and I'd like to see someone else's implementation before I start.

Also I'd like to know what section you went with for the mast. I believe the list of materials on your web site indicates you used the DM1. If you since replaced it what did you end up using? I was wondering if this section would be strong enough to support a decent-sized crew out on the wire.

The plans also specify using a floating gooseneck. I've never seen one in use and I'm not sure how effective one would be. My concern is that if I haul on lots of vang, for example, if that could cause the gooseneck to slide down the mast a bit, requiring the tweaking of other control lines.

Finally, I'm curious about your overall impressions of what she's like to sail and how the performance of this design compares to other established dinghy classes here in Canada, like Lasers, 420s, Albacores, etc.

Sorry for the long post. Glad to finally be able to converse with someone who's actually built the same design.

Cheers,
Killick

[JWC]

Delta-V sailing photos

http://members.shaw.ca/johnc_sueb/dvsail1.jpg http://members.shaw.ca/johnc_sueb/dvspin2.jpg

[Killick]

Nice to see pics of one on the water.

With the furling jib and the profile of the main, it looks very similar to a Tasar configuration you're running.

How do you find the performance overall?

[JWC]

Killick,

I'll try to answer your questions. This will probably be pretty long too.

The self tacking jib uses a harken Micro Cb traveller and track. The track is radiused to the LP of the jib, angled forwards, and the ends are mounted on wood blocks. Aluminum or Carbon brackets would give it more of a cool factor, but hey, it is a wooden boat (sort of). I'll post a picture later.

I didn't use a lever vang. It just looked like you could slice off your crew's head with the thing. Mine is a 12:1 (cascade) with adjustments run to cam cleats on both side decks.

The main traveller also runs to cam cleats on the side decks right next to the vang. I thought about curving the main traveller track as well, but decided to leave it flat on the cockpit sole to make the cockpit as roomy as possible. I cleat the mainsheet off of the boom rather than the sole, so the affect of pulling the traveller to windward is much reduced. Trade offs.

The mast and boom are standard Tasar. The north american Tasar builder is in my back yard, and he has lots of mast extrusions in stock. It seemed like a good deal, and the Tasar is the one design spawned form the NS14 anyways. The big difference is that it is deck stepped, so I moved the bulkhead back 3 inches, extended and supported the deck in that area. I've seen a Tasar with a trapeze, but I think it's a bit too bendy for adults on the wire.

I've been launching the spinnaker from a bag, but the hole goes in the foredeck within a couple of weeks. The 6" dia receiver tube (carbon) is finished, and the mold for the scoop is 95% done. I'll also re-rig the kite with a retrieval line that is the other end of the halyard, and launches the pole also.

There are Tasars, 420s, Albacores, and Lasers at my club. We also typically get light air in Vancouver in the summers. Upwind the Delta-V is very quick and you can round the top mark first. Downwind, it does'nt have the power in lighter airs with the fractional asymetric, so you have to sail some high angles to keep the speed up.

But, downwind it 20+ knots and flat water is a whole different ball game! Especially with the mylar main that is 20% larger (not pictured).

I'll post some rigging pictures soon.

John

[Killick]

Thanks, John

Some additional pics would be great.

Tony

[JWC]

From the rear view you can see the Ronstan main traveller. The blue line is the 2:1 continuous traveler with cleats on each side. The white/red tracer line is the vang, also cleated on each side.

http://members.shaw.ca/johnc_sueb/dvtransom.jpg

On the foredeck, you can see the jib traveller. I fabricated my own adjustable track stops as Harken don't make one for this series. On the rear pole support there is a cheek block. The jib sheet runs from the clew, through the block on the traveller car, forward to the cheek block, and back to the swivel cleat on the port side behind the track. The spin pole supports are fabricated from aluminum.

http://members.shaw.ca/johnc_sueb/deckview.jpg

John

[Killick]

Thanks for the extra pics John.

She looks like she's a fun boat to sail, especially in stronger winds. Hope I evenually get mine done and that it doesn't turn into a "perpetual project".

Good luck with those spinnaker mods. There's info on this Fireball web site (spinnaker halyard pump (http://www.draycotewater.co.uk/fleets/fireball/html/rigging_-_spinnakers_-_boats_w.html)) that you might find interesting.

Tony

[JWC]

Killick,

Thanks for the info on the halyard pump. I was planning to do it as described in the ronstan catalogue with the exception of using a single floating block rather than the double shown. The double makes sense for an I14 where the pole extends 9' in front of the bow, but for our 3.5' sprit, the sngle should work fine (until reality proves me wrong). I have seen the pump used with this system too, but didn't really understand till now. Thanks.

http://www.ronstan.com/catalogue/p120.pdf

Another good rigging guide for a deck mounted pole can be found on the Martin 16 web site:

http://www.martin16.com/downloads/turbo.pdf

From an earlier description, it sounds like you were planning to install the sprit below deck, yes?

John

[Killick]

Yes, my intent is to install the pole as in the pic supplied by Warren above. I want to keep the deck as clear as possible.

Thanks for the link to those PDFs. If there's an upside to a prolonged build process, it's that there's plenty of time to think about how you want things to work. I find that the more sources of information I have, the more alternatives I get to explore and evaluate without actually committing funds to them. By the time I actually get 'round to that part of the build, I've already weighed the pros and cons of different ideas and made a decision that I can (hopefully) live with.

As you might have gathered from my earlier posts, I've been web-hopping all over the globe looking for examples of this and that, and the web has turned out to be an invaluable tool. There are just so many classes that aren't sailed locally, but have detailed web sites containing info on builds or rigging or repair, etc. Personally, I just wish we had more of the classes 'round here that are sailed in the UK and down under... boats like the NS/MG/Sportskiff and the Javelin (the one sailed in NZ and Aus), the Merlin, Cherub and National 12. All of them performance boats that we just don't get to experience around here.

...but thanks to the web I can steal some of their ideas at least. ;)

[JWC]

Tony,

Don't tempt me to go on a rant about the lack of interest in development classes in North America. It's too bad. Without development classes we wouldn't even have boats with asymetric spinnakers, or planing hulls for that matter. It's the lack of satisfaction with the status quo that has made sailing exciting. Doesn't give much freedom to North American designers, unless they design for big boats, as the lead keel crowd are much happier to accept racing with a handicap system. The result being that the new one designs come form Oz, NZ, and Europe.

If I was to build another Delta-V (Hmm, I still have the station molds and the strongback), I'd extend the floor all the way to the bow, open up the bulkhead at the aft end of the foredeck, run the sprit below deck, and use a sock instead of a tube for the spinnaker. Oh yeah, the floor would slope upwards towards the bow for better drainage -- mines flat. And the foredeck would probably be concave to the radius of the jib traveller.

But, if I build another one, I'll have two boats and no wife :(

John

[Killick]

John, I agree on all points.

Your variations for boat #2 are exactly what I'm planning for boat #1 (with the exception of the concave foredeck).

... and I've already been forewarned to not even think about attempting boat #2 (but I too have kept the strongback and station molds smile.gif )

btw, since we seem to be on the same wavelength in a number of areas, ever thought about messing about with foils? I've been wondering lately just how much sail power would be required to lift a relatively lightweight hull (say something like a 14 footer) completely free of the surface. Don't know if the standard Delta V sail plan would be capable of generating enough ooomph. But maybe something like a larger Sportskiff rig, or a Javelin rig, or a mylar Taser rig... might just be enough in a decent breeze.

Just a thought :D ... maybe some experimentation will be in order someday.

Cheers

[JWC]

Killick,

Re the foils, I don't think there's enough power. The I14s have done some experimentation and they've got enough power (2 x DeltaV upwind sail area, 3.5 x down wind). The Bieker I14s have used foils on the rudder only, not to lift the boat, but to trick the water flow into thinking the hull is longer. Rule loop hole.

Here's a couple other changes I made. (Tony Gondola, if you see this don't get upset it is a development class after all :D )

http://members.shaw.ca/johnc_sueb/dvjibtravel.jpg
The above picture shows the angle of the foredeck better as it overhangs into the cockpit. Rather than the big v shaped overhang shown in the plans, I reduced this to gain crew working area. The decks angle out to the shroud attachment point.

http://members.shaw.ca/johnc_sueb/bukheads.jpg
The plans call for water tight compartments. This photo is a bit dark, but you can see the holes in the bulkheads. There are also limber holes along the keel plank. There's also a 1/8" hole in the bulkhead at the front of the cockpit below the deck overhang to allow for pressure equalization.

John