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View Full Version : TSA abuse. Just what is this ?



varadero
11-18-2010, 12:29 PM
If you think this is OK, watch this video.:pmad:
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/978.html

Black-Jack
11-18-2010, 12:34 PM
There is an opt out option for all airports - in other words they can hire their own security forces and fire the TSA

People need to contact their congress critters and get rid of the TSA period.

varadero
11-18-2010, 12:40 PM
The clip of the three year old girl screaming " don´t touch me" turned me cold. I have a young one, I think I would have had to walk away or go to jail!

Phillip Allen
11-18-2010, 12:47 PM
I suspect I would have gone to jail...lost my right to vote...lost my right to own guns and lord knows what else...all felony convictions have life sentences...all of em

Bruce Hooke
11-18-2010, 01:18 PM
I watched the video and heard a lot of anecdotes that clearly in some cases represent poor or even illegal practices by specific TSA agents but we never hear the other side of any of these stories and we never hear things like did the TSA take disciplinary action of any sort against any of these agents. We certainly never hear any statistics about how widespread these sorts of problems are. We also hear some stuff that seems to be along the lines of "someone with some connection to the Department of Homeland Security proposed an idea so look out its what's coming next" with no discussion of whether the idea ever went anywhere at all within the department. The original news reports included in the video strike me as the sort of news coverage put out by the "if it bleeds it leads" type broadcasters, which again tell us almost noting about the full situation.

In short the video strikes me as something produced by someone with a major ax to grind using largely material that even its original form I would not put much stock in. Especially after the likes of Andrew Breitbart have come along, I put absolutely no trust in videos produced by someone with an ax to grind.

There may well be major problems with the TSA. This video does little or nothing to address that issue in any meaningful way.

Kaa
11-18-2010, 01:28 PM
This video does little or nothing to address that issue in any meaningful way.

Sure it does!

It whips the public's emotions into frenzy which might be enough to make some people get off their asses and complain to their political representatives who might transmit the pressure up to Washington which could rein in the TSA. Issues like that aren't decided by rational discussion among enlightened philosopher-kings (and a wise Latina woman).

How else do you think meaningful public pushback against government policies works?

Kaa

Bruce Hooke
11-18-2010, 01:40 PM
Yes, it may result in changes, quite possibly changes that will just make both security and TSA procedures worse since the changes are likely to be knee-jerk responses rather than thoughtful actions designed to actually improve the situation. I don't consider that "addressing the situation in a meaningful way."

I am not asking for "enlightened philosopher-kings" I am simply try to do my part to fight back against what I see as one of the worst features of today's media world. We cannot improve the level of discussion if we don't protest against crap like this video. We don't need philosopher kings. We would be better off with a populace that does not fall hook line and sinker for the latest frenzy-inducing video.

Kaa
11-18-2010, 01:43 PM
...rather than thoughtful actions designed to actually improve the situation.

In airline security? Haven't seen those in a loooong while.


We would be better off with a populace that does not fall hook line and sinker for the latest frenzy-inducing video.

:-) When you find such, let me know.

Kaa

B_B
11-18-2010, 01:55 PM
I didn't really have a passionate argument, one way or the other, on the TSA controversy... but I think that an interview with a former El Al security expert, on 'Countdown', was worth thinking about. Israeli security doesn't do the TSA stuff.... but what they do is to interview EVERY passenger... and they're not shy about admitting that it's really all about profiling. I don't like the idea of profiling, in normal life... but when it comes to protection against terrorism on airlines, I think the guy has a point worth considering. He's not an artful speaker of English, unfortunately, but.....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/ns/msnbc_tv-countdown_with_keith_olbermann/#40244871

The interview starts at 3:15 in the video

ElAl employ highly trained and interested people. TSA hires minimum wage drones.
One set of employees is capable of the art of detection, the other merely doing things robotically like on an assembly line - no brains required, just attitude.

Tall Boy
11-18-2010, 02:11 PM
Unless people are willing to pay the price of freedom (blown up planes, trains and chuches) This nonsence is what you need to get used too. I got to laugh, A guy get's on a plane with some fruit of the booms on and presto, everyone gets strip searched for ever after, shoe bomber? presto, every one needs to take off their shoes. I call those victorys, the terrorist are still alive and 3 year olds are getting groped, I'm guessing they smile every morning they get up. Every time one of those goobs pulls off a stunt, The USA wusses out a bit more.

Phillip Allen
11-18-2010, 02:49 PM
Unless people are willing to pay the price of freedom (blown up planes, trains and chuches) This nonsence is what you need to get used too. I got to laugh, A guy get's on a plane with some fruit of the booms on and presto, everyone gets strip searched for ever after, shoe bomber? presto, every one needs to take off their shoes. I call those victorys, the terrorist are still alive and 3 year olds are getting groped, I'm guessing they smile every morning they get up. Every time one of those goobs pulls off a stunt, The USA wusses out a bit more.

a good point...thank you

Kaa
11-18-2010, 02:51 PM
A guy get's on a plane with some fruit of the booms on and presto, everyone gets strip searched for ever after, shoe bomber? presto, every one needs to take off their shoes.

There *has* been calls for someone to try to smuggle something onto the airplane in her bra... :D

Kaa

nw_noob
11-18-2010, 02:56 PM
A guy tries a shoe bomb, now we all take off our shoes like a good citizen would. A guy tries an underwear bomb, now we consent to having an image taken that can see through our clothes, or get felt up... you know, like a good citizen would. Just how much C-4 explosive do you think a suicide bomber could cram up his, well, you know. Who's up for random cavity searches? A good citizen would be o.k. with it. They're just trying to keep us safe you know.

Bob Adams
11-18-2010, 03:07 PM
In short, the terrorists win.

Kaa
11-18-2010, 03:12 PM
In short, the terrorists win.

The US has been losing the Global War on Terror rather spectacularly, if you haven't noticed.

Kaa

Tom Hunter
11-18-2010, 03:30 PM
They don't catch terrorists, they harass, delay, arrest, and sometimes beat innocent people including children, and we know for a fact there are much more effective ways to secure air travel.

Why defend failure?

Black-Jack
11-18-2010, 03:33 PM
how to fix it?

get rid of the TSA and start profiling

Soundbounder
11-18-2010, 03:38 PM
I watched the video and heard a lot of anecdotes that clearly in some cases represent poor or even illegal practices by specific TSA agents but we never hear the other side of any of these stories and we never hear things like did the TSA take disciplinary action of any sort against any of these agents. We certainly never hear any statistics about how widespread these sorts of problems are. We also hear some stuff that seems to be along the lines of "someone with some connection to the Department of Homeland Security proposed an idea so look out its what's coming next" with no discussion of whether the idea ever went anywhere at all within the department. The original news reports included in the video strike me as the sort of news coverage put out by the "if it bleeds it leads" type broadcasters, which again tell us almost noting about the full situation.

In short the video strikes me as something produced by someone with a major ax to grind using largely material that even its original form I would not put much stock in. Especially after the likes of Andrew Breitbart have come along, I put absolutely no trust in videos produced by someone with an ax to grind.

There may well be major problems with the TSA. This video does little or nothing to address that issue in any meaningful way.Excellent post!
We should have all learned by now not to take videos at face value.

peb
11-18-2010, 05:01 PM
I think the TSA needs to be abolished. It is really absurd, bureaucracy run amok. There has to be a better way than these full body scans, which are horribly expensive/slow to do on 100% of passengers and invasive, or these enhanced pat-downs (which is nothing less than sexual assault by government agents). The DA in San Franscisco was looking into bringing criminal charges against any TSA agents, as federal government workers are not immune from state laws just because they are doing their job. One airport in Florida is going to opt-out of TSA and go private.
I sure am glad I am not a TSA agent and would have to choose between quitting my job and performing immoral acts under orders.
Finally, I am amazed at the polls which show the majority of Americans support this crap.

Bruce Hooke
11-18-2010, 05:25 PM
Various people on this thread are proposing either doing away with the TSA (and I presume replacing it with something that works better) or shifting to the Israeli method of profiling, which it sounds like does not focus so much on things like demographics and focuses more on careful questioning of each passenger and looking for particular "signals." It occurs to me that shifting away from using low-wage TSA employees towards using more highly trained people who spend more time talking to each individual passenger would greatly increase the cost of the process and also probably significantly increase the time it takes to go through security. Is that really what you want?

Tall Boy
11-18-2010, 05:29 PM
Various people on this thread are proposing either doing away with the TSA (and I presume replacing it with something that works better) or shifting to the Israeli method of profiling, which it sounds like does not focus so much on things like demographics and focuses more on careful questioning of each passenger and looking for particular "signals." It occurs to me that shifting away from using low-wage TSA employees towards using more highly trained people who spend more time talking to each individual passenger would greatly increase the cost of the process and also probably significantly increase the time it takes to go through security. Is that really what you want?

How would it cost more when 98% of the passengers will simpley walk on thru.

peb
11-18-2010, 05:33 PM
Various people on this thread are proposing either doing away with the TSA (and I presume replacing it with something that works better) or shifting to the Israeli method of profiling, which it sounds like does not focus so much on things like demographics and focuses more on careful questioning of each passenger and looking for particular "signals." It occurs to me that shifting away from using low-wage TSA employees towards using more highly trained people who spend more time talking to each individual passenger would greatly increase the cost of the process and also probably significantly increase the time it takes to go through security. Is that really what you want?

Putting enough of those machines at every airport in order with the capabity of scanning everyone, they are much slower than a medal detector, will be immensely costly. If I understand correcly, plans to roll out the machines to every airport do not include in the next couple of years enough machines to scan everyone. I don't think it will increase time for the average traveller, as the profiling is done in such a way as to determine the low risk passengers and their questioning is quite limited.

Regardless, a choice between sexual assault by government agents and increase time in the airports, I will take neither.

Most of what TSA has done up until now (eg 3 oz carry on and take shoes off) has been harmless, even if relatively worthless from a security standpoint. It is no longer harmless.

nw_noob
11-18-2010, 05:39 PM
Putting enough of those machines at every airport in order with the capabity of scanning everyone, they are much slower than a medal detector, will be immensely costly.

Michael Chertoff thinks it's money well spent. It's an understandable position considering he has a business relationship (http://gawker.com/5437499/) with the manufacturer.

Black-Jack
11-18-2010, 05:39 PM
follow the money trail. who is getting rich off the scanners and why?

Bruce Hooke
11-18-2010, 05:50 PM
Maybe I am misunderstanding the Israeli system. I have never been there. What I had understood was that they talk at least a bit and often pretty carefully to every passenger, not just the passengers who fit some predefined demographic profile. Even if some demographic "filters" are applied to eliminate, say, small children and the elderly from all but the most basic inspection, it seems to me to be a huge stretch to think that anything like 98% of passengers could be ruled out and allowed to walk right through. Profiling based on things like the passenger's perceived race would be very hard to do and very easy for a terrorist to evade. After all, many people from the usual places where we expect terrorists to be from do not look that different from people from places like Greece and Italy. It is easy to say don't check young children and the elderly, but except around the holidays young children and the elderly are a pretty small part of the traveling public.

peb does raise a good point that these new machines are not going to be cheap either, and the pat-downs are certainly not that fast. I do still wonder if machines will really be more expensive than all the pretty highly trained security staff who would be needed to do something like what Israel does.

Fundamentally what I am asking is what do you propose in place of the current TSA and have you through through the costs and time involved?

Don't get me wrong...I am not at all keen on the current system, I just find it a bit more challenging to figure out an effective replacement that would not be a lot more expensive or a lot more time consuming, or both.

peb
11-18-2010, 06:07 PM
I read that the standard questioning done for all passengers in Israel is done by college students doing part time jobs. They are smart, train them a little, provide them the profiling information and they do a pretty good job. Its the ones who fail the profile checking or fail the standard questioning who are routed to the professional security agents.

What am I proposing? I don't know, I am not an expert, but it doesn't take an expert to know that what is going on now is wrong. Note: the scanners I could almost live with, as they really don't provide that much of a picture, kind of a metallic outline. But they are expensive and slow and I can see why some people would take exception to them. Also, we must wonder how much worse they will get as the technology advances. The argument that one just doesn't have to fly doesn't hold water, as once the precedent is set in airports, we will see them in places like courthouses, where we won't have a choice. The stand needs to be made now.
The argument that this is all in response to the recent underwear bomber is bull, since the machines were planned and on order well in advance. It is a flawed government program that has taken on a life of its own. The people in charge, who this is their business, need to be told to figure out a better solution.

Tom Hunter
11-18-2010, 07:45 PM
I was curious about the effectiveness of the TSA, so I did a little Google searching.

To date the TSA has not stopped a single terrorist from getting on a plane. Since it's creation at least two terrorist have gotten on planes, shoe bomber and underwear bomber. Both were stopped by passengers, as were the 4 terrorists on the Sept 11th flight that went down in PA.

El Al security actually has stopped a terrorist from getting on a plane, in 1986 when the Irish wife of a Jordanian man attempted to board a plane with a bomb. (If memory is correct she may not have known about the bomb, just been a carrier.)

El Al starts with computer profiling, then moves to progressively more intense interview tactics.

TSA is spending a lot of money, hurting Americans and not making us safer. We should not pay our government to do us damage without making things better, its an unacceptable trade.

pefjr
11-18-2010, 07:58 PM
Smear Campaign over the new security measures. Solution: don't fly, I don't want to hear your silly whining anyway. I think we need tighter security, and the flight crew will not fly without it anyway. Can't blame them

Phillip Allen
11-18-2010, 08:01 PM
I would like to hear the end to the cop-out of "if you can't come up with a better plan then the old one should stay in place"

suppose we go back in time just a bit to when folks were "let blood" to get out the bad humours...not replacing it means we should continue bleeding people...even against their will. what compensation will these forum members give us when bleeding the air lines and their customers is finally shown not to be effective? Come to think of it, it HAS been shown not to be effective...yet some here want to continue selling their lancets

the above is an abstract thought...the more highly educated eletists can pass over it as they won't understand anyway

Phillip Allen
11-18-2010, 08:02 PM
Smear Campaign over the new security measures. Solution: don't fly, I don't want to hear your silly whining anyway. I think we need tighter security, and the flight crew will not fly without it anyway. Can't blame them

bleed em more!

pefjr
11-18-2010, 08:59 PM
bleed em more!That's under my elitist head. Every whiner that intimidates a TSA officer makes my flight less safe. So walk.

Phillip Allen
11-18-2010, 09:01 PM
Every whiner that intimidates a TSA officer makes my flight less safe.

prove it

Kaa
11-18-2010, 09:03 PM
Solution: don't fly, I don't want to hear your silly whining anyway.

Solution: you buy earplugs and deal with it.

Kaa

oznabrag
11-18-2010, 09:08 PM
Smear Campaign over the new security measures. Solution: don't fly, I don't want to hear your silly whining anyway. I think we need tighter security, and the flight crew will not fly without it anyway. Can't blame them

Solution: don't breathe. I don't want to hear your silly whining anyway.

peb
11-18-2010, 09:08 PM
I was curious about the effectiveness of the TSA, so I did a little Google searching.

To date the TSA has not stopped a single terrorist from getting on a plane. Since it's creation at least two terrorist have gotten on planes, shoe bomber and underwear bomber. Both were stopped by passengers, as were the 4 terrorists on the Sept 11th flight that went down in PA.

El Al security actually has stopped a terrorist from getting on a plane, in 1986 when the Irish wife of a Jordanian man attempted to board a plane with a bomb. (If memory is correct she may not have known about the bomb, just been a carrier.)

El Al starts with computer profiling, then moves to progressively more intense interview tactics.

TSA is spending a lot of money, hurting Americans and not making us safer. We should not pay our government to do us damage without making things better, its an unacceptable trade.

Thanks for the info, backs up why I said the previous stuff they have done is ineffective.

peb
11-18-2010, 09:10 PM
Smear Campaign over the new security measures. Solution: don't fly, I don't want to hear your silly whining anyway. I think we need tighter security, and the flight crew will not fly without it anyway. Can't blame them

The argument, "you don't like it, don't fly" just doesn't hold water in my book. These measures, if allowed to stand at airports, will soon be utilized in other government faciilities, eg local courthouses, and in those places we often don't have the luxury of choosing not to go. An abuse of government power is wrong, it does not matter if the government is abusing power at a place where it can we can avoid it or not. A very weak argument.

Looks like the ACLU is getting in on the act

http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/airport-security

I said it the other day, I will say it again, the outcry against this if Bush was still in office would be huge. I don't understand why it is not now. Seems like this should cross across idealogical boundaries. Being from the Texas rural areas, I do like the guy who punched the TSA agent in the gut after being groped, where I grew up, a lot more of these guys would get a good a&*-K*&king.

pefjr
11-18-2010, 09:19 PM
A very weak argument.

.A very weak memory.

Kaa
11-18-2010, 09:26 PM
A very weak memory.

A 9/11 style attack is no longer possible even without the TSA.

Kaa

Tealsmith
11-18-2010, 09:30 PM
Profiling works for me.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/11/profile_muslims_or_pat_down_th.html

Black-Jack
11-18-2010, 09:40 PM
the politically correct mindset has handed victory to the Islamist terrorists on a golden platter. better to inconvenience and strip the rights of everyone than offend anyone.

well as boortz says

YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED!

Tom Hunter
11-18-2010, 09:46 PM
pefjr,

I'm completely in favor of tighter security. The current system does not work, and the body scanners will not make it work. I think you are defending incompetence, not supporting better security. I believe that because there is a system that does work (profiling) which we are not using. Can you show that my research is wrong?

pefjr
11-18-2010, 09:47 PM
A 9/11 style attack is no longer possible even without the TSA.

KaaOBL is dead. But what were those care packages last week? Yemen, Chicago? I didn't read the details. Homeland Security is here to stay, get used to it. A new world dawned 9/11, and if you want to live in it..............

Kaa
11-18-2010, 09:52 PM
Homeland Security is here to stay, get used to it.

Sorry, not planning to.


A new world dawned 9/11, and if you want to live in it.....

LOL. You seem to be quite quick to admit that the terrorists have won.

Kaa

skipper68
11-18-2010, 10:06 PM
Denver Airport will tell you the "New World Order" .Look up the mural on the wall there. The terrists cant even try to do their hobby in 2012. Thats where they get the virgin chicks!? Needle dicks need inexperianced! Oh,and don't forget,W is going to sit on the right hand of God!! He has so much blood on his hands when he was GOV.-between the death penentalty in TexASS, and for the innocents murderd in the wars.

pefjr
11-18-2010, 10:08 PM
Denver Airport will tell you the "New World Order" .Look up the mural on the wall there. The terrists cant even try to do their hobby in 2012. Thats where they get the virgin chicks!? Needle dicks need inexperianced! Oh,and don't forget,W is going to sit on the right hand of God!! He has so much blood on his hands when he was GOV.-between the death penentalty in TexASS, and for the innocents murderd in the wars.Does that boat of yours ever leave the dock?

pefjr
11-18-2010, 10:15 PM
Sorry, not planning to.



You seem to be quite quick to admit that the terrorists have won.

KaaYou don't have a plan. And I said no such thing. I do say, the fanatics in this world set the rules for security and we are forced to play by their rules because the lifestyle we want to live is high on the hog. Now ,if you want to lower your standard of living.................

Kaa
11-18-2010, 10:17 PM
...the fanatics in this world set the rules for security and we are forced to play by their rules...

I don't think so.

Kaa

ccmanuals
11-18-2010, 11:11 PM
You need to get yourself one of these. When the card is flagged by the scanner you hand it to the TSA agent and simply say, "sorry forgot I had this, here are my rights"


The Bill of Rights – Security Edition Card is The First Ten Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America, printed on each side of a sturdy, playing-card-sized, pieces of metal. The cards have been redesigned with slightly rounded corners to make a card easier to carry in a wallet or pocket. The next time you travel, it’s possible that the person confiscating your mouthwash may not be familiar with the Bill of Rights.http://securityedition.com/

peb
11-18-2010, 11:48 PM
A very weak memory.

First of all, Tom is correct, the scanners won't work that well at the end of the day. But that is beside the point. Ok, you answer me, post 9/11, what are the limits to the infringements on our rights we should accept in the name of security? Note, I am not one of these anti-Patriot Act people. There are good things in the act and bad things, but in general, it tries not to intrude on the average joe's liberties. That is not the case with TSA, it targets the average Joe's liberties. So what limits should be placed on TSA. Should the be able to perform a strip search on randam passengers? Should they be allowed to do body cavity searches? We are one small step away from each of these examples, all it takes is a little better tecnology (maybe 2 years away) for the first, and sticking hands down peoples pants is not too far removed from cavity searches.

Phillip Allen
11-19-2010, 07:52 AM
Is pefjr really in favor of profiling?

peb
11-19-2010, 09:17 AM
It is starting to appear that putting hands down a person's pants and into their underwear is standard part of the new pat down procedures, as there are just too many reports surfacing. It appears that TSA's publicized demonstrations of the pat downs are not accurate, ie the government is lying to us.

varadero
11-19-2010, 09:31 AM
If these measures were put in place in Europe, there would be such a hell raising that would eclipse the French retirement age protests. But I guess if you want to make sure that no law abiding religious person from whatever faith does not fly, not to mention any self respecting human being, all you have got to do is dictate that a stranger has the right to touch you daughter´s, and wife´s genitalia prior to boarding. Hey bingo, only a radical would go through the security.

mikefrommontana
11-19-2010, 10:16 AM
Heard on NPR the other day that AAA (I think) was predicting that of the travel taking place over the Thanksgiving holiday, there is a record number of people driving to their destination. Since the travel volume numbers are usually between automobiles and airlines (railroads being more or less static) I think Americans are voting with their feet.

I wonder when the airlines will complain that the TSA is driving away their business?

Bruce Hooke
11-19-2010, 10:25 AM
Heard on NPR the other day that AAA (I think) was predicting that of the travel taking place over the Thanksgiving holiday, there is a record number of people driving to their destination. Since the travel volume numbers are usually between automobiles and airlines (railroads being more or less static) I think Americans are voting with their feet.

I'd be a little cautious about drawing conclusions based on simply the volume of travelers going be air versus road. Airfares are going up and the economy is still not very good so people may be driving simply because they have chosen to stay more local to save money. It could be that you are correct, but without additional information I am not sure we should make that conclusion.

pefjr
11-19-2010, 10:32 AM
Is pefjr really in favor of profiling?Are you asking anyone in particular or just channeling Ian?

Kaa
11-19-2010, 11:09 AM
Nice: http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/11/say-no.html



Here is what New York State's Office of Children & Family Services (http://www.ocfs.state.ny.us/main/publications/pub1154text.asp) recommends that you tell your children about inappropriate touching:


You are special and important.
Your body is your own.
You have the right to say "NO" if someone wants to touch you in any way that makes you feel uncomfortable, afraid or confused.
There are parts of your body that are private. You have the right to say "NO" to anyone who wants to touch your vagina, penis, breasts or buttocks. You have my permission to say "NO" even if that person is an adult ... even if it's a grown-up you know.
Pay attention to your feelings. Trust your feelings about the way people touch you.
If someone bothers you, I want you to tell me. I promise that I will believe you.
If someone touches you in a way that does not seem right, it is not your fault.

Children need to know that the safety rules about touching apply all the time, not just with strangers ... or with men ... or with baby sitters. In many cases ...children are sexually abused by people they know and trust [including] authority figures....
Also, abusers seldom need to use physical force...Unfortunately, abusers can use threats successfully because children are taught to believe and obey adults.
Excellent advice for children and for adults.
Authority figures, for example, may also use threats of violence (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2010-11-15-column15_ST1_N.htm) to engage in abuse against adults, for example, "you will be blown up unless you let me touch your genitals and take naked pictures of you."
Kaa

peb
11-19-2010, 11:25 AM
Are you asking anyone in particular or just channeling Ian?

I don't know about Ian, but my last question to you was serious. What limitations would you place on TSA in regards to their actions to a random passenger going into airport security?

downthecreek
11-19-2010, 11:53 AM
It is starting to appear that putting hands down a person's pants and into their underwear is standard part of the new pat down procedures, as there are just too many reports surfacing. It appears that TSA's publicized demonstrations of the pat downs are not accurate, ie the government is lying to us.

I haven't flown since I acquired some titanium plates and screws in my hip. I'm supposed to be coming to the US in the spring, but all these stories (and I have heard many more from European travellers to the US) do tend to put me right off the idea of passing through any airport over there. I think I'll need to do some research and find out how we bionic folks are supposed to manage things. I'm sure there other titanium enhanced skeletons here, so any information would be most welcome.

Black-Jack
11-19-2010, 12:41 PM
It appears that TSA's publicized demonstrations of the pat downs are not accurate, ie the government is lying to us

naaaww

down the creek-

bionics foks are going to definately set off metal detectors so you will have one of two choices- full body scan if it is available at the airport and working, or number 2, get ready to be groped.

varadero
11-19-2010, 12:54 PM
Do not worry DTC, apparantly, now it is standing orders to smile while they are groping.

pefjr
11-19-2010, 01:10 PM
I don't know about Ian, but my last question to you was serious. What limitations would you place on TSA in regards to their actions to a random passenger going into airport security?I missed the question. None, it is not my job. I leave that entirely up to the needs of the Airlines, the flight crews, the Airport employees, and the safety and economics of mass transportation. That is decided by experts in the Business. If an individual does not agree to the security requirements, then walk. Another example: If a taxi driver requires you to sit in the back with a bulletproof glass between you and him/her for their safety, and you do not want to do that, then walk. Your choice. I would worry more about the intimidation put on TSA officers to not do a good job.

Whiners are going to whine, it is in their nature. The whiners of the new security measures will be the loudest whiners in the case of a security breach. One breach and they will be screaming the TSA is not doing a good enough job providing for their safety, calling for their lawyers, filing law suits, and asking for a Congressional Investigation. American whiners are the worst. Maybe you should ask, "Why is that"?

Kaa
11-19-2010, 01:31 PM
None, it is not my job.

Let's try a different question.

Is there some point -- any point at all -- at which you'll be willing to say "too much"? Or whatever TSA does is fine -- always, whatever it does?

Kaa

varadero
11-19-2010, 01:35 PM
Let's try a different question.

Is there some point -- any point at all -- at which you'll be willing to say "too much"? Or whatever TSA does is fine -- always, whatever it does?

Kaa

For me that point has been passed. Unless it changes I will not be doing any more US boat shows.

pefjr
11-19-2010, 01:54 PM
Let's try a different question.

Is there some point -- any point at all -- at which you'll be willing to say "too much"? Or whatever TSA does is fine -- always, whatever it does?

KaaThat's not a different question, that's two questions. And an implication.

peb
11-19-2010, 02:30 PM
I missed the question. None, it is not my job. I leave that entirely up to the needs of the Airlines, the flight crews, the Airport employees, and the safety and economics of mass transportation. That is decided by experts in the Business. If an individual does not agree to the security requirements, then walk. Another example: If a taxi driver requires you to sit in the back with a bulletproof glass between you and him/her for their safety, and you do not want to do that, then walk. Your choice. I would worry more about the intimidation put on TSA officers to not do a good job.

Whiners are going to whine, it is in their nature. The whiners of the new security measures will be the loudest whiners in the case of a security breach. One breach and they will be screaming the TSA is not doing a good enough job providing for their safety, calling for their lawyers, filing law suits, and asking for a Congressional Investigation. American whiners are the worst. Maybe you should ask, "Why is that"?

So what happens when they take the next step and do actual strip searches at random? And then when that is required to get into the courthouse? Do you honestly not know of a limit which you think they should not go beyond? You can honestly say you see nothing wrong with a TSA agent sticking their hands down your underwear just so you can get on an airplane? I simply fund your assertion incompreshensiable.

pefjr
11-19-2010, 02:42 PM
So what happens when they take the next step and do actual strip searches at random? And then when that is required to get into the courthouse? Do you honestly not know of a limit which you think they should not go beyond? You can honestly say you see nothing wrong with a TSA agent sticking their hands down your underwear just so you can get on an airplane? I simply fund your assertion incompreshensiable.I'm not getting an ulcer over your imaginations and your attempts to put words in my mouth will not work either. You mention "honestly" in your slander but don't offer any honesty. You can fund your exaggerations and hysteria but find my unconcern inco... what???....incomprehensible?

peb
11-19-2010, 02:52 PM
I'm not getting an ulcer over your imaginations and your attempts to put words in my mouth will not work either. You mention "honestly" in your slander but don't offer any honesty. You can fund your exaggerations and hysteria but find my unconcern inco... what???....incomprehensible?

Slander against whom? I am not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to get an answer to a simple question. You had said that my opposition to TSA practises were based on a short memory. So my question, in the interest of preventing a terrorist attack, are there any limits in your mind as to how far the government can go when dealing with a typical passenger going through airport security?

What imagination are you talking about? The idea that these machines and procedures will be used elsewhere? The idea that someone might want to do a cavity search, well thats only one step further than sticking their hands down a passenger's underwear. Doesn't take too much imagination.

Soundbounder
11-19-2010, 03:16 PM
Various people on this thread are proposing either doing away with the TSA (and I presume replacing it with something that works better) or shifting to the Israeli method of profiling, which it sounds like does not focus so much on things like demographics and focuses more on careful questioning of each passenger and looking for particular "signals." It occurs to me that shifting away from using low-wage TSA employees towards using more highly trained people who spend more time talking to each individual passenger would greatly increase the cost of the process and also probably significantly increase the time it takes to go through security. Is that really what you want?
Israel has two airports, how many do we have in the US?
Flying from Israel is also an all day affair. Passengers need to arrive 3 hours before their flight.
That's not a suggestion, those are the rules!
Most of the talk radio crowd that praises the methods in Israel always leave those big details out of their argument.

pefjr
11-19-2010, 03:38 PM
So my question, in the interest of preventing a terrorist attack, are there any limits in your mind as to how far the government can go when dealing with a typical passenger going through airport security?

If we can deal with facts and not have to deal with your imaginations then someone might be able to consider this question. The answer is: Security levels change as the threat is measured. There are experts in place determining what level security we are at and what type of security checks are needed. What information needs to be publicized and what is secret. This cannot be determined by me or anyone else without the proper information and the proper training to do the job. Homeland Security has done an excellent job since 9/11. Not without stepping on a few toes here and there though. And if threat levels are at a critical level and I have to fly, I will gladly strip for the gals of TSA if it makes my flight safe. And anyone that refuses must walk, consult their lawyer, file law suits or whatever.

peb
11-19-2010, 03:57 PM
If we can deal with facts and not have to deal with your imaginations then someone might be able to consider this question. The answer is: Security levels change as the threat is measured. There are experts in place determining what level security we are at and what type of security checks are needed. What information needs to be publicized and what is secret. This cannot be determined by me or anyone else without the proper information and the proper training to do the job. Homeland Security has done an excellent job since 9/11. Not without stepping on a few toes here and there though. And if threat levels are at a critical level and I have to fly, I will gladly strip for the gals of TSA if it makes my flight safe. And anyone that refuses must walk, consult their lawyer, file law suits or whatever.

Ok, thanks for the answer. That was tough. To you there are no limits to government actions, as long as it is in the name of security and a technocrat determines it proper. Thankyou comrade.

pefjr
11-19-2010, 05:32 PM
Ok, thanks for the answer. That was tough. To you there are no limits to government actions, as long as it is in the name of security and a technocrat determines it proper. Thankyou comrade.No, the no limit applies to your imaginations, not to my reality. When you eat your steak tonight and take your medications in the morning, remember that a government technocrat approved them both.

Phillip Allen
11-19-2010, 07:01 PM
If we can deal with facts and not have to deal with your imaginations then someone might be able to consider this question. The answer is: Security levels change as the threat is measured. There are experts in place determining what level security we are at and what type of security checks are needed. What information needs to be publicized and what is secret. This cannot be determined by me or anyone else without the proper information and the proper training to do the job. Homeland Security has done an excellent job since 9/11. Not without stepping on a few toes here and there though. And if threat levels are at a critical level and I have to fly, I will gladly strip for the gals of TSA if it makes my flight safe. And anyone that refuses must walk, consult their lawyer, file law suits or whatever.

Guys, we're not gonna get anywhere here...we have here an example of a person living in desperate fear and willing to believe the experts in the government actually know "that Jews are sub human/groping children increases our security/being called an expert actually means you ARE an expert/experts and authorities must be obeyed at all hazards." If you cannot understand this then it means you are of poor intellect...experts are impeachable

pefjr
11-19-2010, 08:18 PM
If you cannot understand this then it means you are of poor intellect..In your case, apparently true.

Canoez
11-19-2010, 09:14 PM
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/demotivators/TSAmodel.jpg

'nuff said.

paladin
11-19-2010, 10:21 PM
How about the TSA agent that was patting down a lady, felt her breast and decided she wanted to see it, and when told that the lady was a cancer patient and the breast was a prothsesis, made her remove it and show it to her.......I quite flying....only partially because of stuff like this (the other was health) but instead of flying, I hopped a bus or train, a few times chartered small aircraft, and eventually had use of a corporate aircraft if I gave notice....if folks could arrange their affairs a bit better, perhaps someone would get the message. I'm still looking into a small RV/bus and self dialysis.

Canoez
11-19-2010, 10:29 PM
I've been a guest of El Al and found their methods to be convincingly thorough without an intrusive pat-down or "new" screening method, Chuck. Why can't US air security be as effective - and courteous?

wizbang 13
11-20-2010, 12:05 AM
Pat downs will not work against a "butt bomb /vagina bomb" . Wish I had not thought of that. (sure I'm not the first)