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View Full Version : I think that I killed my sander



cs
11-12-2010, 04:22 PM
Yup I think that it is almost dead, on life support, ready to pull the plug.

Epoxy dust is apparently a killer for random orbital sanders. The poor little Hitachi has performed well, that is up until it started dying. It started a couple of weeks ago with a intermittent high pitched whine. Thought maybe it was a bearing. I blew all the dust out of it and figured I would continue on till it died. The whine would come and go, but it would still work and worked good. Toward the end of the day today it started losing power. At first it would take a few seconds to spin up to speed, but now it just random orbits at a lower speed and has very little power.

Yup, I think it is just about dead. I think that next I will try the Porter Cable, it looks like it has more power than the Hitachi and only cost $10 more.

The old.

http://static.letsbuyit.com/filer/images/uk/products/original/141/94/hitachi-sv13ya-random-orbit-sander-230v-230w-14194771.jpeg

Possibly the new one.

http://www.drumsanders.net/images/pictures/porter-cable-343k-5inch-random-orbit-sander-kit.jpg

Chad

Black-Jack
11-12-2010, 04:38 PM
Ive burnt out 3 pc rosanders - Ill never buy another- was hoping maybe the hitachi was better. I do not ause my tools just give em lots of use and maintenance - pc in my opinion is not a long lasting professional quality ROS

David G
11-12-2010, 04:46 PM
For a medium priced, 5" random orbit sander - I'd buy a Bosch every time. The palm version is "new & improved", and I haven't used it... but would expect only good things based on many years of Bosch usage. The larger, more powerful, D-handle version (3725DVS) has been around for years, and is darned near bulletproof. I own two, and have yet to have any problems with them - even after many years of very intense usage. Running a large commercial shop, over the years I've tried all of the brands and a lot of the models. Bosch is what I keep coming back to.

gibetheridge
11-12-2010, 05:39 PM
Before I replaced it I would check the brushes. I've found that they are often the first part to go. You could put a little oil in the bearings while it's opened up.

Paul Girouard
11-12-2010, 08:19 PM
+ one on checking the brushes.

David G
11-12-2010, 08:36 PM
Before I replaced it I would check the brushes. I've found that they are often the first part to go. You could put a little oil in the bearings while it's opened up.

Yes, couldn't hurt. I was actually a bit surprised that you'd managed to kill that sander. I haven't used the exact one, but have used a lot of Hitachi tools, and they've all been pretty solid. Overall.... on the bulletproof end of the spectrum.

Keith Wilson
11-12-2010, 08:44 PM
You might check the bearings too. My old Porter-Cable filled up its lower bearing with crud. It's not hard to fix.

BTW I now have the exact sander in the picture. It works fine, except the dust collector thing falls off after a while and needs to be duct-taped in place.

Canoez
11-12-2010, 08:54 PM
I had the older PC 333 5" RO sander - two of them in fact. It's one of the few Porter Cable tools that I would say is awful. I'd hope that the newer ones are much improved.

I had such an awful time with it I finally went with the Bosch 1295 DVS - I haven't been sorry for that choice.

Black-Jack
11-12-2010, 09:13 PM
I had the older PC 333 5" RO sander - two of them in fact. It's one of the few Porter Cable tools that I would say is awful. I'd hope that the newer ones are much improved.



when was the last time you actually saw the quality of anything made in the US go up as the parts and whole of it were out sourced to china?

Rich Jones
11-12-2010, 09:50 PM
You might check the bearings too. My old Porter-Cable filled up its lower bearing with crud. It's not hard to fix.

BTW I now have the exact sander in the picture. It works fine, except the dust collector thing falls off after a while and needs to be duct-taped in place.

I went cheap and got a Craftsman. Works fine but the dust collector also falls off. Switch is is the wrong spot, too. Right where you grip it, so you're always accidently turning it off.

Black-Jack
11-12-2010, 10:08 PM
dust collector also falls off

sounds like a pc product

I started putting a screw in mine to keep em in place

RFNK
11-12-2010, 10:13 PM
I've killed several sanders but the Bosch are just that little bit harder to kill. Apparently Festo ones are a bit harder to kill but SWMBO would kill me if i forked out for one of those.
Rick

coelacanth2
11-12-2010, 10:14 PM
Said the heck with it and bought a 6" Festool. Hook it up to a Fein Miniturbo that I bought years ago. Except for the odd pattern on the sanding discs, very nice tool to use, can really lean on it without slowing it down much. Festool sanding discs seem to last well, or I leave a worn out 220 disc on and put on a sale brand sticky disc and punch out the peripheral and central holes. With the vacuum hooked up, very little dust gets out.

RFNK
11-12-2010, 10:23 PM
Hmm, you can consider my imminent demise your responsibility!!
Rick

Milo Christensen
11-12-2010, 10:27 PM
Another vote here for the biggest Bosch.

botebum
11-12-2010, 10:29 PM
Brushes first then get a 6" Porter Cable (I'll get you the model # when I get back to the company shop) for hard core work and a DeWalt variable speed (again, I'll get you the model number when I get back to my personal shop) for furniture grade work. Bosch is good but the pads wear out pretty quick. They can be replaced but it adds up.
The P/C model you showed is homeowner grade crap. Always try to buy tools your grandkids can use when they are grown if you can keep it in your budget.

Doug

paladin
11-12-2010, 10:47 PM
Are your sanders all electric, or are they air operated. I have simple tools like Rears and Sawbuck that are electric....but I also have my "serious" tools and all of them are air operated, from the skill saw to the belt/disc/ sander and drill/screwdriver sets. The air tools are not the cheapest/simplest made. For my staple guns I use a couple of different sizes. I am also finding that it is sometimes economical to build a wood panel from wood that you already have insted of trying to make arrangements to acquire something that was forgotten.....it's easier to put down 3 layers of 1/4 inch for the overhead, than bend the 3/4 inch stock down....if I get the new one built it will be the last and it will be done with a very fine finish. I will hire a full time jr. officer to keep it up, now gotta find a full time dialysis nurse to perform her services 3-4 days a week. I also want to find a Captain that knows every bump in the Chesapeake Bay and from the upper bay all the way south to the islands.

gibetheridge
11-13-2010, 01:02 AM
While on the sobject of RO sanders...

I was sanding between coats with the RO while applying several coats of urethane to a floor. At one point I forgot to empty the dust bag before going in to eat lunch and when I back came out it was smoking. They warn against spontaneous combustion on my Dewalt, it really happens, especially in a situation like mine where the coating wasn't 100% cured, although it was cured enough to sand.

Todd Bradshaw
11-13-2010, 02:18 AM
There is also often a belt (or a rather big O-ring functioning as a belt) inside some of these that drives the pad as it gyrates around. If it gets crapped-up with too much polished-down dust it will start to slip and the pad stops moving around the way it's supposed to. Cleaning both the belt and the pulleys, guides or whatever it runs through can often fix this. All the motor has to do is spin, like a drill motor. All the pad has to do is spin on its bearing. The connection that makes it all work and generates the random orbits is this little belt connecting them. If it isn't working properly, then the sander won't work properly.

LeeG
11-13-2010, 07:43 AM
I went to a vacuum cleaner store and got 25' of hose, duct taped it to the ROS and put the cheap/noisy shop vac outside. Discs last longer and epoxy doesn't heat up. Getting that crap away out of the air is a good step to reducing it floating around you and the ROS.

Jim Mahan
11-13-2010, 09:06 AM
Where does one get new brushes or bearings for an old motor that's stopped turning?

Keith Wilson
11-13-2010, 12:04 PM
I've used these guys sucessfully: Tool Parts Direct. (http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/toolparts.html)

gibetheridge
11-13-2010, 12:18 PM
I get parts from the building supply where I purchase my tools. They even stock some of the more commonly requested parts, like switches, brushes and drive belts.

Bruce Hooke
11-13-2010, 01:56 PM
when was the last time you actually saw the quality of anything made in the US go up as the parts and whole of it were out sourced to china?

I certainly say this, the handheld power tools I have, which I have acquired over the last 25 years or so, seem to me to be higher quality than the handheld power tools that were in my grandfather's shop or in my father's shop when I was young. The old tools may have been sturdy but the lacked a good bit in what you might call refinement. This is less true of stationary tools; my drill press is over 50 years old and doing just fine.

Paul Girouard
11-13-2010, 03:07 PM
I certainly say this, the handheld power tools I have, which I have acquired over the last 25 years or so, seem to me to be higher quality than the handheld power tools that were in my grandfather's shop or in my father's shop when I was young. The old tools may have been sturdy but the lacked a good bit in what you might call refinement. This is less true of stationary tools; my drill press is over 50 years old and doing just fine.



I sort of agree and disagree on this one. There's no blanket statement that can be made on this subject, as most of it is subjective , or has many different angles that could be injected to the discussion that it's not possible to cover them all.

I'd say tools in general have gotten better, the quality, price, user friendly-ness , safety factors , etc all have increased especially in hand held power equipment.

On hand tools I'd say that applies as well, "generally". Although to buy better hand tools the price has gone up , a lot , and searching out the tools has become easier IF you can get around on a computer.

But a good old brace , maybe a Herty Gerty hand drill , and the such the castings and details or "adornments" may have been nicer , and the tool would have cost under $20. 00 USD , today a equal , and maybe better similar tool might cost $200.00 or more USD.

But in general we today can buy better tools for pretty cheap dollars in comparison to even 20 years ago.

John P Lebens
11-13-2010, 05:38 PM
Get crazy and replace it with a Festool or Fien with a integrated vacuum.

Sure, Festool is expensive, BUT, they have an incredible variety of abrasives and are a joy to use. The vacuum is the best part. It keeps the air and your lungs clean, runs quietly and is usable for all kinds of vacuuming tasks. Depending on how you value your health, the dust collection alone is well worth the price of the gear.

David G
11-13-2010, 05:59 PM
I really like the Fein tools I have. But for this type of sander, and that kind of money, I'd go for the Festool every time. I've used both. The Fein was louder, with more vibration. The Festool - while larger in the barrel than was absolutely comfortable for my small hands - was very quiet, very smooth, and felt completely bulletproof.

For value, though... for a very solid tool with far less outlay... I'd go Bosch.

Stiletto
11-13-2010, 06:24 PM
If it hasnt died yet, consider taking it apart and replacing the bearings with new sealed ones which are surprisingly low cost.
I did this with an el cheapo one I bought and it has lasted years since then.

cs
11-14-2010, 07:20 PM
Wait, hold on a minute before you yank out that debit card and go to Lowes. And see you guys think I don't listen to you, but I do.

Okay I went out in the shop and started taking the thing apart. I blew it out real good with the air compressor and put it back together. Still didn't work right, but I'm hard headed, so I took it back apart and sprayed all the electrics down with contact cleaner and put some 3in1 oil on the bearings. After many struggles and finding lost parts I finally got the thing put back together and guess what? It works! At least for now. I'll hit it hard tomorrow and see what happens when I try and really use it.

Chad

Paul Girouard
11-14-2010, 08:13 PM
How much brush was left? you didn't mention changing them. My Porta Cable just up and quit on me one day , no warning , no excessive sparking brushed , no you need to tap it to get it to fire up , just quit. I figured I finally burned it up. Did all the internet searching , but since it would be days before a new one arrived I decided to check the brushes, they where worn , took two trips to two different Ace Hardware's to get both brushed the one in town only had one brush, so I called to one 20 miles away and they had 3 brushes , so I drove over and got one. Sanders been fine ever since.

Just sayin Sarge , you've only done 1/2 the suggested checking. BTW did you replace that fascia board on the garage yet? LOL!

cs
11-14-2010, 09:14 PM
Sorry that much is beyond my simple electric motor skills. I can disassemble and reassembly and clean but that is about it. Maybe if I'm lucky and have pictures I could change parts out, but like I said electric motors is not my forte.

Chad

botebum
11-14-2010, 09:47 PM
Changing brushes is pretty easy Chad. Here's (http://www.ereplacementparts.com/hitachi-sv13ya-variable-speed-random-orbit-finishing-sander-parts-c-7927_13370_13376.html?osCsid=hjmjsnbqcmaf95la2iti8 6giq7) a schematic of your sander. The brushes (one shown but there's two) are number 22 in the diagram.
In my experience, there's two different signs that brushes need replacing- 1. The motor just up and quits all of a sudden.(Shattered brush) and 2. Sparking and popping sounds from the motor vents.(Worn brushes).
The price for a pair of replacement brushes for your sander are $5.

Doug

cs
11-14-2010, 10:02 PM
Well looking at that schematic I can tell you that those appeared fine when I took it apart. There was a massive amount of epoxy dust in that area and I cleaned this real good. So I remember these parts and too the untrained eye they appeared just fine.

Chad

John P Lebens
11-14-2010, 10:05 PM
Actually repairing a failing sander? Now that is a radical idea! Don't let the manufacturers know about this.

botebum
11-14-2010, 10:15 PM
So I remember these parts and too the untrained eye they appeared just fine.

ChadMany times the brushes will look ok. Look at the springs on them. Do they show signs of heat? Look for color change in the spring metal like you would see on tempered metal. This is a sign that the brushes are worn and are heating up. Changing the temper of the spring causes them to lose their energy and not provide the pressure to the brush that it requires to do it's job. It never hurts to throw in a new set of brushes on your power tools. It's cheap and just a maintenance item like changing the oil in your car.

Doug

cs
11-14-2010, 10:25 PM
I'll tell you what. If it don't work fine tomorrow I will look at changing the brushes, but I do believe they are okay. The sander is only about 3 or 4 years old, so I imagine the brushes are just fine. I would be willing to bet that it was the dust build up. This was epoxy and the epoxy dust builds up and is harder to get off than sawdust.


Chad

botebum
11-14-2010, 10:33 PM
I agree about the epoxy dust and that may be all it is.
3-4 years of occassional homeowner type use probably hasn't affected the brushes. With any luck, you're done. If you do need to change the brushes, you now know how.
I never felt comfortable messing around with electric motors either until someone showed me how easy it was to change them out. I have to do it all the time at work, especially on the 16" circ saws. They eat brushes like candy.

Doug

cs
11-14-2010, 10:51 PM
Well I'm certainly marking this down in the lessons learned column. Next time I run into this type of problem I will look a little deeper before heading off to Lowes.

Chad

Paul Girouard
11-14-2010, 11:04 PM
Some times they get worn weird maybe a chunk of crap causes the odd wearing. If in doubt take them out , look at the wear pattern, you can square them up with sand paper on a flat surface. Just slide them across and take out any arch in the carbon.

You may be right , just dust build up. Most brushes , not all , are accessible via their own cap screw , no dis-assembly of the tool handle or body, should only take a few minutes.

2 cents.

John P Lebens
11-14-2010, 11:05 PM
The sanding tool manufacturers are not going to like this at all!

Stiletto
11-15-2010, 01:43 AM
I think what usually kills them is the bearings eventually seizing up and the motor cooks itself before the user turns the machine off.

Add new brushes and possibly a commutator polish at the same time the bearings are replaced and you have a big improvement for not much outlay.

ChaseKenyon
11-15-2010, 03:10 AM
I have owned Ryobi (when they made really top line professional tools), AEG, Bosch, and more recently Makita (2) and PC (1) ROS. all of them went through two sets of bearings and 3 to 5 sets of brushes before I gave up on them. I currently have been using two one after the other Rigid randorbits. The first one got dropped a few to many times from the staging and such ten to 20 ft even to concrete. Bent the main shaft and the sucker still ran fine just would get hard to control if you really leaned into it. Left it on a job site over night and it was stolen. Got one just like it next day. I really like the 12 foot integral extension cord with the led power indicator. I mostly use hook and loop as I get a much better deal on them in bulk than I can get on PSA. So I do need to replace the HAL pad more often than I'd like. But the sucker can not be stalled and It hooks u to my dust collection system real well. This second one never loaned out with or without (not having crew is nice ) permission is going good. Has more mileage on it than both of the 2 set of bearingand five sets of brushes Bosch units combined. on its fourth HAL pad but the original brushes and bearings have stood up real well. It is not my 11.5 inch GEM RO sander but it has stood up to the rigors of hardwood custom cabinets and boat building and restoration and best of all it has not had any problem Like all the others with the ulta fine dust from epoxies and even worse solid surface counter fabrication.

It has been my experience in engineering and then int he trades that some are good but have to have the top of the line tools even if they don't need them or are not able to fully use them. The guys and GALS who actually make money,not just cash flow, and do good work seem to have a different brand for almost every tool. Old school used to be in the 50s and 60s and even 70s each professional (whether deserving of the label or not), had all tools of the same make. I still remember my first contract sub contractor job. I needed a new cordless screwdriver/drill. I bought a 9.6 Volt Makita one year before the 12 volt ones came out simply because the lead finish work contractor and the other sub both had 9.6 volt Makitas so we could share batteries. We always had tiewraps on at least one tool to run a battery down all the way to get it to take a full charge. Now with 15 minute Lithium battery chargers it is not necessary and not always wise. Al the same brand and size if you have a charger failure or battery prolblem it kills al your tools not just one.


It is like the wonderful DR weed and brush whackers. Yes they are powerful and yes you can put generators and snow Throwers (not to be confused with snowblowers that are two stage) and more attachments. Had to deal with that at my out of state weekender neighbors house. He had full bore DRs and all the attachments at both his house on the cape and the one here. Only some one like that with more money and time to waste would like having all things in one motor unit.
The 17 HP weed and brush cutter scalps everything. As a snow thrower even with 17 hp it stalls on even light snow at 6 or more inches (12 per storm is normal here) when the single stage auger lets the chute plug up. You can only go in a straight line at constant speed to keep it working. Snow that even a 7 hp two stage real blower has no trouble with.

USeless and if the motor goes you are dead in the water or in this case on top; of it.

Having a nice set of all the same kind pre bagged in a carrying bag or case of five battery tools and only one charger and two batteries is the same kind of performance idiocy.


Chase

P.S. The only thing I have seen that is just a tiny tiny bit harder on electric ROS than Solid Surface (Wilson Art Gibralter and Earthstone for me, mush more dense than Corian), fabrication is actual "cultured" marble or granite and you usually use wet techniques and air power on them.

I really do love the job and the mirror low angle finish I get on decks even after cutting back With a 3M pad from mirror close up to satin close and mirror low angle using the 11.5 inch random orbit GEM.
:d:d:D:D

varadero
11-15-2010, 04:42 AM
Get crazy and replace it with a Festool or Fien with a integrated vacuum.

I will second this comment on the festool, and the dust collection works on any other tool with a vacuum fitting, and only starts when the tool is running.

Garret
11-15-2010, 06:55 AM
Some times they get worn weird maybe a chunk of crap causes the odd wearing. If in doubt take them out , look at the wear pattern, you can square them up with sand paper on a flat surface. Just slide them across and take out any arch in the carbon.

You may be right , just dust build up. Most brushes , not all , are accessible via their own cap screw , no dis-assembly of the tool handle or body, should only take a few minutes.

2 cents.

Uneven wear on the brushes may be fixed that way - good advice. However - be aware that you should never sand the commutator! (That's the part that the brushes rub against) Sanding it - even if it looks black & awful will usually shorten the life of the motor dramatically. Installing new brushes will usually clean it up after a bit.

Also be aware that if you use any kind of solvent cleaner on it you could damage the protective shellac used on windings. If you need a cleaner, use only electric motor cleaner which won't dissolve it. And - make sure it's completely dry before you hit the on switch - flammable cleaners can burn or explode from the sparking caused by the brushes.

No - I'm not an electric motor expert, but my dad spent 40 years designing them & this was his advice.

Edit: I can second Keith's recommendation of Tool Parts Direct. (http://www.toolpartsdirect.com/toolparts.html) They have all kinds of parts available at good prices. I have on older B&D jig saw (that actually works surprisingly well) that needed a new blade holder. 2 different B&D dealers told me they couldn't get it. TPD had it for under $2.00 + shipping - so I got some blades (1/2 the local price) to make the $6.00 shipping worth it.

gibetheridge
11-15-2010, 11:43 AM
If you think you want to clean a commutator do it with the eraser on the end of a pencil, then use a tooth brush to clean the spaces between the plates.