How long on the hard?

[wintermutt]

I've put my 46' Kettenburg PCC (1956) on the hard. She was admitting some thirty to forty gallons of water per hour, and it seemed that something must be done.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/wintermutt/RIMG0031.jpg

Yes, that's her sister, shorn of paint, in the background.

She's carvel planked, of course, mahogany over oak, and I'm wondering if I'm going to create a huge amount of extra work for myself if I leave her out of the water for more than a few days. Someone told me: more than three days and I'll have all my putty dropping out. Does that seem right? I expect that the planking will open up some, and she'll leak a fair bit for a few days, when I refloat her, but will it be worse than that?

I had hoped that while she's in the yard I might tend to a multitude of other little issues that are much easier to address while out of the water (paint, varnish, mechanics, etc). So we were thinking three or four months.

Any feedback appreciated.

[Ian McColgin]

Well, thirty gallons per day for a boat at rest is a bit steep even for my taste.

First off, do you have any notion as to where it's from? Dripping stuffing box? Easy. Garboard to keel seam? Harder.

In the thirty odd years I've lived aboard wooden boats and the thirty years before that I was involved with wooden boats, I've not seen that a week or two on the hard shrinks things out all that much. My normal hauls are about a week but often enough we've been out for a couple of weeks and several times about a month. The caulking did not fall out.

The real change in a boat is a whole winter out. In the cold you get real drying. Heck, you get it topsides even with the boat in the water.

So do your work and don't worry. And find out where the water's coming from.

G'luck

[wintermutt]

Thanks Ian. Not thirty per day - thirty to forty per hour.

Not the stuffing box. Seems to be coming from forward somewhere, but of course, everything is hidden inside by panelling and so forth, so I can't see the source on the inside - just the water trickling through the limber holes and back to the pump.

My suspicion is this popped butt-joint.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/wintermutt/RIMG0035-1.jpg

We only pulled her yesterday, and this is the only obvious problem I've found.

[donald branscom]

Looks like you found the problem alright!

Lousy scarf, butt block????

[wintermutt]

Butt block.

Now, how best to undertake the repair?

[simonmags]

Are you thinking of scarfing a new piece on or will you go back with another butt joint?

[kazeai1969]

Just my two cents, but isn't this time of year pretty damp on your end of our beautiful country?

[P.L.Lenihan]

At thirty to forty gallons per hour, it would appear from the photograph you have indeed located the primary culprit. This will not necessarily be an outside job only.You'll now have to carefully remove whatever interior jonery falls in front of where that sprung plank is located. This will give you excellent access to the frame bay(space) where the butt is block is located.You'll also have a far better visual indication of the condition of the adjoining plank ends(rot,split end grain etc) which will further inform the best course of action toward a sound repair.

Yes, it may be tedious to remove some of the interior but look at it as just another excuse to become more familiar with your boat!

Hopefully the reason this popped has nothing to do with the plank ends and more to do with the fasteners(which may lead to a whole slew of other issues,but you're not there yet)

Whatever the case, take lots of pictures and keep us up-dated.Lots of excellent advice will follow to allow you to perform a perfectly sound repair.



Cheers!


Peter

[johngsandusky]

A few days out won't hurt. My boat was out for ten days last year, five this year, both times in summer. She dried about enough to paint, and to lose some bottom paint. You can keep her moist by hosing every night. What really helps is protecting the hull from sun. If you can drape her all round with tarps (expensive, I know) or dropcloths, she won't dry much.

[wizbang 13]

People who own these boats love how they sail, but they are lightly built, carrying their lofty marconi rig for a long time.
Best check all the butts,and crack off the backstay.
whats doin' on the sister?

[Ian McColgin]

Gannon & Benjamine perfected a form of repair called "hide-a-butt" for moments like this. A search in WoodenBoat Magazine should find it. In a nutshell, it amounts to scarfing in a short length of plank bridging the joint and, incidentally, getting rid of any problematic wood at the plank ends.

Once the job is done, you'll need to recaulk at least in the area.

But(t) wait, there's more.

Possibly much more.

Given the condition of that butt joint and the general appearance of the boat, I would suspect rot in other butt joints, the garboard, and the lower hood ends of some frames.

Were she my boat, I'd keep her on the hard all winter, really sound all the wood looking for bad fastenings, and pull the garboards to look at the frame ends.

[wintermutt]

Are you thinking of scarfing a new piece on or will you go back with another butt joint?

I scraped the plank-end down to the wood so I could get a look at the bungs. The wood of the plank and bungs "appear" to be sound. I'm planning to remove the bungs today and see what's up with the screws. She's fastened with bronze screws and I'm kinda hoping that they're not shot (the prospect of re-fastening the whole hull is quite un-appealing, although I suppose that would be easier than re-planking her, if the plank is rotten). I guess I'll also start removing some cabinetry and panelling in the head, which is interior to this location. When I can see the situation from inboard I'll know a lot more.

So, I guess I'll eventually determine why it popped out. I'm hoping it's the butt block that's rotten (maybe the sink in the head's been leaking), or the screws have rotted (there appear to be five of 'em into the block, and then two more next to that for the rib). Hopefully I can just shove the plank back in and refasten the butt-joint with a new block and/or new screws.

If it turns out to be the plank-end that has rotted - well, the job will get a little more interesting.

[wintermutt]

Just my two cents, but isn't this time of year pretty damp on your end of our beautiful country?

Yeah, this is the rainy season, but we're not quite underwater - yet.

[wintermutt]

At thirty to forty gallons per hour, it would appear from the photograph you have indeed located the primary culprit. This will not necessarily be an outside job only.You'll now have to carefully remove whatever interior jonery falls in front of where that sprung plank is located. This will give you excellent access to the frame bay(space) where the butt is block is located.You'll also have a far better visual indication of the condition of the adjoining plank ends(rot,split end grain etc) which will further inform the best course of action toward a sound repair.

Yes, it may be tedious to remove some of the interior but look at it as just another excuse to become more familiar with your boat!

Hopefully the reason this popped has nothing to do with the plank ends and more to do with the fasteners(which may lead to a whole slew of other issues,but you're not there yet)

Whatever the case, take lots of pictures and keep us up-dated.Lots of excellent advice will follow to allow you to perform a perfectly sound repair.

Cheers! Peter



Sounds like good advice Peter. As noted above, my plan is get going on removing the millwork in the head today. Pictures at eleven!

[wintermutt]

A few days out won't hurt. My boat was out for ten days last year, five this year, both times in summer. She dried about enough to paint, and to lose some bottom paint. You can keep her moist by hosing every night. What really helps is protecting the hull from sun. If you can drape her all round with tarps (expensive, I know) or dropcloths, she won't dry much.


We're expecting steady rain for at least the next week or so - the dampness will remain high and the sun won't be beating down.

Not so much fun working in the rain, but I growed up trudging though the world-class rain back in Deep Cove, so I guess I'm used to it. Ha!

I think I'll get those tarps and start spraying her down each evening nonetheless.

[wintermutt]

People who own these boats love how they sail, but they are lightly built, carrying their lofty marconi rig for a long time.
Best check all the butts,and crack off the backstay.
whats doin' on the sister?

Backstay is already loosed.

Sister has been on the hard for more than five years. She has been completely stripped - inside and out. Fella that owns her works in a rigging shop next door and is a bit overwhelmed with the amount of work she requires. To add insult to injury, the travel-lift ran over her mast, which had ben laying on the ground next to her, Ouch! That was a step backwards. To be honest, I am doubtful about her future. She needs a major infusion of cash and talent - both of which are in very short supply at present. I put the Ricochet in next to her so I could use sister as a study reference, and to maybe act as an inspiration to sister's owner to keep plugging away.

[wintermutt]

Gannon & Benjamine perfected a form of repair called "hide-a-butt" for moments like this. A search in WoodenBoat Magazine should find it. In a nutshell, it amounts to scarfing in a short length of plank bridging the joint and, incidentally, getting rid of any problematic wood at the plank ends.

Once the job is done, you'll need to recaulk at least in the area.

But(t) wait, there's more.

Possibly much more.

Given the condition of that butt joint and the general appearance of the boat, I would suspect rot in other butt joints, the garboard, and the lower hood ends of some frames.

Were she my boat, I'd keep her on the hard all winter, really sound all the wood looking for bad fastenings, and pull the garboards to look at the frame ends.


Thanks again Ian. I hope you're wrong - but I fear you may be right. At least half of the frames have already been sistered, as is so common on these old K'burgs.

Either way, we were planning to keep her on the hard for the winter and take care of whatever we can.

At this point, pulling the garboards to look at the frame ends is not an experience I was hoping to enjoy. The sister next door has her garboards off and I can look at hers whenever I feel the need.

[kavw]

I had a but joint (mine land on frames, no but blocks at all) that seemed to be leaking, admittedly it didn't spring, but I recaulked the joint and tingled over it. Job done.
I haven't seen much mention of tingles on this forum, but I would think to close your joint up with large rivets, or countersunk carriage bolts through the plank and but block and tingle over it.

K

[Ian McColgin]

Butt her butts may not be the same as your butts.

Pulling the garboard is scarey butt incredibly easier than the alternative of not getting it right. And for boats of a certain age, it's as routine as a prostate for a guy.

You yank the plank and it's in such good shape it will go back on or not. If not you were lucky to pull it before the boat sank. Think happy thoughts.

G'luck

[StevenBauer]

I'm not sure why folks are so worried about having their carvel planked boats out of the water. Talisman is 51 years old and spends about 7 months a year out of the water. All her planks and frames are original with no signs of repairs. I don't think you have to worry about her drying out in your climate. She'll be fine.



Steven

[wizbang 13]

40 gallons an hour isn't leaking, it's sinking.
Half the frames have been sistered.
Worried about putty falling out.
Don't wanna take off the g'bd.
Things are sounding worse.
Why did that butt jump?

[wintermutt]

OK, so I had to pretty much demolish the Head to get at the butt block. When I got to it I was able to lift the block out with my fingers - no prying, gave it a wiggle and out she came. The block just slid right off the old bronze screws.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/wintermutt/RIMG0045-1.jpg

The screws look a bit sketchy, lots of verdigris, but maybe OK. One of them was broken, and came away with the block. I wouldn't say the block is actually rotten, but I can see that it was the weak link that failed.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/wintermutt/RIMG0042.jpg

Everything in the area was very wet. 'Course it's wet - 40 gal/hour wet.

It seems that the lack of air under the fiberglass-over-plywood floors of the Head led to dampness and the rot around the screws? That's a question.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/wintermutt/RIMG0001-4.jpg

Tomorrow I'll drill the bungs and back the screws out, see if that plank'll shove back in where she belongs.

I imagine mahogany would be best for the new block? That's another.

[wintermutt]

I'm not sure why folks are so worried about having their carvel planked boats out of the water. Talisman is 51 years old and spends about 7 months a year out of the water. All her planks and frames are original with no signs of repairs. I don't think you have to worry about her drying out in your climate. She'll be fine.
Steven

That's just what I wanted to hear. :D

[StevenBauer]

Maybe I should add that Talisman was refastened below the waterline in 1997. Those screws don't look great. Do you know if/when she was refastened? If you don't know I'd pull a few fasteners from several different areas of the boat and assess their condition. And inspect all of the butt blocks.


Steven

[wintermutt]

Thanks Steve,

All of the other blocks that are accessible seem to be solid. I agree those screws could look better.

I've got a couple of other hull issues to tend to while she's out, so I'll have an opportunity to check out some of the other fasteners.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Brent,

Good to see you've exposed the source of some of your grief! Equally good of you to suspect,strongly I hope, the lack of ventilation as the route of the problem! You'll know to ensure lots of air holes when putting the interior back together.Head areas are notorious for this sort of trouble.

The fasteners look tired in a strange way. Have you good galvanic protection on your boat? Without knowing the extent of your intentions for this boat, just the photo of the empty butt block space tells me your boat could use a bit of inside re-freshing/cleaning/scraping to return her to a better state.

Have you any plans to paint that frame bay in the photo?

Cheers!


Peter

[wizbang 13]

BOLT the new butt, and probably the old butts.
The plank also pulled away from the frame a bit, which is a LOT. Why?
A lot more scraping and probing nessessary.
I'm not trying to sound like a hard case Winter,but what you want to hear may not be what you need to hear.
Drying out too much is not your problem, not at all.
But your boat does have problems.

[Jaywickrob]

I'm no expert, so take what i say with a pinch of salt.

But..

If that were my boat I'd now set about stripping her out and checking every single repair, even possibly redoing them because simply looking at them and giving them a tug by hand doesn't tell you very much.
Why has the plank come away from the adjacent rib and what else is coming apart elsewhere?
I'd be very concerned about taking that boat on the water until I knew she was fastened correctly throughout

[wintermutt]

Thanks for the input guys.

Peter: I agree that the fasteners look bad - I'll know more about their state once I get a few of them out. The galvanic protection is good and well maintained, but could probably be better. The mess in the photo is a bit deceptive - I'd just removed the floor so you're seeing a lot of soggy wood and paint-chips and underfloor cheese. That will all get a lot tidier once she dries a bit, and I get at it with a brush and a dustpan. To be honest, I thought everything (except the popped butt block) looked remarkably sound. Once I get everything dry and straightened away I'll probably get some paint in there.

wizbang: Bolting sounds like a good plan. Seeing the splitting in the failed butt-block, I can see that bolting would be a much more secure system. I'm thinking both the butt and the rib fastening failed due to the eternal dampness under the floor of the Head. Fortunately, all the wood down here, aside from the block itself, appears to be quite sound. I'm a bit stymied to come up with a reason for the failures, aside from poor ventilation under the floor. I agree that my boat has problems (don't they all) - we'll address as many as we can during this haul-out, on our thrift-store budget.

Jaywickrob: I'm not about to strip her out. The photos you've seen give the impression that she's a mess - but really she's in great shape for her age. As mentioned above, these boats were built light for racing, but creature comforts were included for obvious practical reasons. Nowadays they race little and are mostly consigned to family cruising. They are well known to have undersized ribs, a large proportion of which, in every example I've seen, have failed. That is the principal repair I'm still coping with on the Ricochet. Many of the ribs are broken, and already sistered. Having now stripped out the Head, I can see several more that require attention. But I believe the hull is substantially sound, and with our ongoing program of maintenance and repair she'll be good for another 50 years. Just to clarify - the failed butt-block is not a repair; that's how she was built at the Kettenburg yard some 50+ years ago. I reckon 45-foot-long mahogany planks were in short supply back in the day.

I sincerely appreciate everyone's insights and suggestions. I'm gratified that so many knowledgeable and experienced folks take an interest in my clumsy neophyte efforts at boat repair, but being from the Pacific Northwest, I'm naturally inclined to take everyone's comments with a very large pinch of salt. :D ;)

[wintermutt]

Well, not too much progress; picked up a danged cold and I'm currently in hot toddy mode. :o

I removed the screws from the butt splice - pushed them out from inside. Measuring their shank thickness I make them to be #8 x 1-1/2". The frame screws will take more persuasion. Needlenose pliers? None of them back out when turned - just spin in their holes. To me the screws look pretty bad and they really don't seem to be doing much more than locating the planks on the frames. I'm starting to feel like some refastening is in order.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/wintermutt/RIMG0013-3.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/wintermutt/RIMG0015-5.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/wintermutt/RIMG0003-5.jpg

I've also discovered that all five of the newly exposed frames/ribs are broken, and will require sistering at the very least. As noted above, a very high proportion of the boat's frames have broken and were sistered in the past. I guess these ones were out of sight (behind the cabinets) and out of mind. The heavy bronze(?) strap, visible screwed to the rib at lower right in the photo below (left in bottom photo), runs down from adjacent the chain plate (upper right) down to the mast step. Not sure what that's all about, but clearly this is an area of the hull subject to large stresses.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/wintermutt/RIMG0021-6.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc43/wintermutt/RIMG0008-5.jpg

My plan for this week (assuming the toddys work), is to pull more bungs and see how the screws have fared in a couple other areas.

One more question: is it normal practice to apply paint (or varnish) to seal these areas of structure below the floors?

[wizbang 13]

Marconi race rig in a lightly built carvel boat. This is what happens.
Those broken frames? Pulled apart like that? Shrouds and stays pulling up and mast pushing down.
The boat has been ripped apart. On TOP of that, you have a metalurgy issue with those screws
I believe there is nothing that cannot be fixed, but it is time for you to see the dark of day.

[wintermutt]

Marconi race rig in a lightly built carvel boat. This is what happens.
Those broken frames? Pulled apart like that? Shrouds and stays pulling up and mast pushing down.
The boat has been ripped apart. On TOP of that, you have a metalurgy issue with those screws
I believe there is nothing that cannot be fixed, but it is time for you to see the dark of day.

Yes, it might appear that the hull's been "ripped apart". However the fractured frames have separated like this in all areas of the hull - not only adjacent to the major stretching loads applied by the mast and shrouds. I had the thought that the swelling of the planks after the frames broke had perhaps caused the separation. Nonetheless, in the case of the many other broken and sistered frames on this boat, the shape of the hull is still fair. The sistering is obviously not ideal, but given the inordinately larger amount of work involved in actually replacing with heavier versions all of the frames, it is not surprising that this is typically the route taken on these old Kettenburgs. I believe the K 40, Lady J. that Charlie Cobra's been restoring in Bellingham has a similar frame-repair protocol.

As to the metalurgy issue: If we find that all the fasteners in the original frames and butt-blocks are as bad as the ones I've just removed, we'll look to the newer fasteners in the sistered frames to hold her together - at least until we have the resources to refasten everything below the waterline. It's a principle of Process Philosophy to find opportunities in limitations. Clearly the Ricochet is giving me wondrous new opportunities.

“I find hope in the darkest of days, and focus in the brightest. I do not judge the universe.” - Dalai Lama

[johngsandusky]

I refastened a Friendship. Removing the old screws was the very hard part. For those that turned in their holes easily I found that a very small needlenose plier worked with modification. I bent the tips together slightly with a vise-grip, making ends that hooked in. This tool would fit on the hole without much damage to the sides, and pull out the screw. Failing that, use screw removal tools for the drill, or drill off the head and try to pull the shank.

[seo]

I'd suggest that you pull out at least one screw from the following areas:
1) hood end, and the waterline
2) garboard, aft
3) garboard or first broad strake, at the "interior waterlline" which means the normal level of water in the bilge.
4) near the engine beds.
5) if there are screws going through the planks into the floor timbers, pull at least one of them from a floor that the mast step lands on.
6) Behind the icebox

I'd also go over all the butts below the waterline, looking for sprung ends. Sound them with a hammer, because if the butt isn't tight to the planks you MIGHT be able to hear it. Also turn the hammer around so that you're holding the head like a handle, and push against the planks with the end of the handle, which creates a fairly large point load. If the plank moves, it's got to be pulled in tight to the frames. If the wood deflects, it's may be rotten.

I'd also get a piece of chalk, so that you can mark things as you see them.

I think that butt blocks should have at least two bolts into them, one for each plank end. In areas of the hull where the planking is sprung around fairly hard, there should be at least four. Screws are pretty good for resisting sheer, not so good at tension.

For what it's worth, I bought an H-28 Herreshoff in 1976 in Ohio. It had been stored out of water, outside, for six months every winter, and did not leak, and had never be re-caulked. She did have a bunch of delaminated frames, and by the time I was done repairing that it was 1982. She went back in the water without being re-caulked, and did not leak.

[wizbang 13]

I"d suggest replace, not sister, every frame and every screw.
That is, AFTER, you have checked for big problems.
Charlie Cobra is doing a job. He is months with a crew working on someone elces boat. I believe he removed a bunch of sistered work. He has done much, much more than throw a coupl'boxes of screws at the boat.

[wintermutt]

John, that sounds like a good trick with the hooked needlenose pliers. Thanks.

SEO, thanks for the useful suggestions. I will continue my investigations as you suggest. And bolts in the buttblocks would make for a lot stronger joint. I'm not anxious to pull the garboards, but I'm really starting to wonder what's keeping those old ribs attached to the keel, and some 7,000 pounds of lead hanging therefrom.

Wizbang, It seems for you the glass is less than half full. That is quite a renovation you'd be having me do. If I didn't have to gut out the interior to achieve it, I think it would be feasible. However, with the time and resources I have available, Ricochet would end up like her sister and the Lady J. - on the hard for 5, 10, 15, 20 years or more. At least for Charlie and his crew the repairs were on someone else's dime. My plan is to put her back to work & play in the Spring.

I'm reminded that "We all have strength enough to bear the misfortunes of others." - La Rochefoucauld

[wizbang 13]

Well, I did not mean to sound like a hard case, or that my glass is less than half full.
My bottle is still half full, going back to my boat in Antigua in 5 weeks.

[wintermutt]

. . . going back to my boat in Antigua in 5 weeks.

Wish I could say the same! Have a good one. Y>

[BBSebens]

How far away are you? Might be nice to come down to the States and visit Charlie and the Lady J. I'm just up the street if you do...

[wintermutt]

Hi BBSebens,
I'm only an hour and a half North of you in Vancouver and Steveston. Yes, I've been wanting to get down there and see what Charlie's up to. I'll try to make it sooner rather than later.
Are you on Holly St?

[BBSebens]

Eldridge, which Holly turns into when you get out of downstown. PM me if you come down...

[floatingkiwi]

Aah, SEO, your comment regarding screws confuses me mate.
(Screws are pretty good for resisting sheer, not so good at tension.)
I thought it was the other way around. I have seen a few joints where there are screws and nails used. Screws to suck it tight and nails to resist the sheer. Not so?

[seo]

Kiwi,
Screws are pretty good in tension compared to a nail. Not compared to a bolt. Or a rivet. Lots of permutations on nails to make them good in tension: tapered cut nails, ring-shank, etc. Having pulled 6" "pole barn" ring shank nails out of yellow pine, I must say that they SEEMED to be holding hard enough to be impossible to pull.
I think that L. Francis Herreshoff wrote about fastenings in "Commonsense of Yacht Design," in which he made the argument that plank fastenings are basically in shear (because water pressure is holding them on?), and for that reason a screw is better than a rivet or nail with a smaller diameter shank. And maybe a trunnel is best of all? I've heard many times that the reason that rivets aren't used much in U.S. built yacht (as opposed to euro), is that the cost of labor, and the lack of an apprencticeship system, made the cost of the guy inside the boat bucking the rivets too expensive, compared to the one-guy job of driving screws. Dunno...
In any event, my observation had been that first-class construction calls for bolted butt-blocks. Why? The explanation I've worked out for myself is that a plank that's sprung around the curved shape of the hull has a strong tendency to stay there, as long as the ends are well fastened. And if there's a gap (a plank butt) in the middle of the plank, the planks' tendency to un-sprung itself will put fastenings to the test. So best off to fasten them well.
Regarding the question of "what's keeping the planks on," I remember a story told to me by a friend who bought a 65' schooner built in 1870, and drove it from Eastport, Maine to Rockland in the middle of winter, over Petit Manan Bar and everything, got it back to the yard, hauled it out, reefed the caulking from one of the garboards, and then went to have a cup of coffee. Came back to find the garboard lying on the ground. The fastenings were completely gone, and the caulk (and water pressure?) was all that held the plank on.
As an aside, I think that advice to tear out all the frames, floors, and interior, and once you're through reframing then start on the planking and decks, is not very useful. There are rich guys who can afford that approach, and they seem to take pride in how much they spend on their boats. Almost as if it meant they were richer... But for a guy with a big, old, lightly built boat that doesn't rate a 10 on the Classic Yaaachting Swank Factor, he'd be a fool to spend that kind of money/time. Maybe he should buy a 28' boat that he can maintain in Bristol condition. Maybe he should arrange to inherit, or marry, or steal a bucket of money. But he's got the boat he's got, and the question is what to do about her problems. Maybe, indeed, the answer is to either come up with $100,000 plus a big rebuild would cost, or just walk away. Many boats wind up on the beach, turning into mulch, because of that exact equation.
In my mind the critical issue is safety, not someone's definition of what's "proper." If the vessel can do it's job, I'm willing to believe that there are situations where a deck covered with roll roofing is OK. Not ideal, and not what one would do if they were fortunate in the matter of their birth, or sagacious in their spousal choosing ("First I looks at the purse" Thank you, J. Geils). But there it is.
SEO

[Tall Boy]

Actually, That a very common problem with the PCC, don't panic yet, they have a large fleet of PC's down in San Diego that seems to be still growing. I've worked on and raced on a number of them over the years and they are my favorite one design class. I've since lost touch with the owners but if you check the PCC registry you should be able to get ahold of someone involved in the group which should provide you with a better understaning of the problem and extent of the fix. I know they run alot of functions thru the San Diego YC. When I get more time I see if I can dig you up a few contact, again don't panic. you don't need to rip into the whole boat.

Check the regestry for the Lark owner, Jean Alexander, there may be an email address, she just finished a repair in the same area the last year or so. Ive sailed on her boat and won a few races. She won the nationals a few years back and should be a good source of info.

[wintermutt]

BBS - Eldridge it is.

SEO - Thanks for the realistic perspective. It's about where I'm at with this one. Fortunate to have a great old boat - not lucky (or smart) enough to have buckets of money to spend on her - but still planning to make the necessary repairs to keep her doing what she was meant to do, for many more seasons yet to come.

Tall Boy - Thanks for the insights. The PCC's are well loved. It is a testament to their wonderful character and lines that, despite their well-documented shortcomings, most of the originals are still out there (sistered ribs and all).

[Tall Boy]

BBS - Eldridge it is.

SEO - Thanks for the realistic perspective. It's about where I'm at with this one. Fortunate to have a great old boat - not lucky (or smart) enough to have buckets of money to spend on her - but still planning to make the necessary repairs to keep her doing what she was meant to do, for many more seasons yet to come.

Tall Boy - Thanks for the insights. The PCC's are well loved. It is a testament to their wonderful character and lines that, despite their well-documented shortcomings, most of the originals are still out there (sistered ribs and all).

You got the right idea, just fix the area involved, sail her easy (easy for me to say, I couldn't do it) then do the most you can when you can and she'll treat you right. the problem with a lot of boats like this, is people bite off more than they can chew and wind up choking and kill the boat. better they sail out from under you than die on the beach.......bung ho.

[wizbang 13]

Oh .,they are still out there, broken, bent, hogged, leaking. Keep on relying on "outside water pressure" to keep your lungs outta the water.
die on the beach ?... later...way later.

[Tall Boy]

Oh .,they are still out there, broken, bent, hogged, leaking. Keep on relying on "outside water pressure" to keep your lungs outta the water.
die on the beach ?... later...way later.

Wow, the guy explains he doesn't have the money for a full zoot redo and you sling out a ration, what a freakin knot hole.

[seo]

Good seamanship involves matching how, when, and where you go with the boat and its gear, the crew, and the master. It is possible to drive a brand new vessel of impeccable design and build too hard and bust up gear and damage the hull. It's also possible to nurse along a tired hull, and to cover long trips in boats that are dismissed as useless clorox bottles by purists.
Yes of course, when I set out I want a 65' S&S ketch built by Abeking and Rasmussen. But that's a little out of my price range...
At work, I've dealt with cracked plates on ship hulls, rusted out bulkheads, jackass watch mates that kept a ship banging into a head sea until the waves rolling down the tank deck broke in the shelter deck watertight doors. What a lot of fun. I've been offered work driving tugs that were built in 1908, in the Winter North Atlantic, and I took the job. We all walked away from that one, probably less surprised that we didn't drown than we were that our paychecks didn't bounce.
But no, I don't rely on outside water pressure to hold the planks on. But the fact of the pressure difference between inside and outside does explain some structural issues with hulls. As an illustration, if someone were to build a boat with the frames on the OUTside of the planking, they'd want to make sure that they're plank fastenings were very strong in tension.

[DanBurrill]

Somebody else commented that the corrosion pattern on the screws that failed was unusual (and it would appear to me that the butt block has failed due to the expansion of the corroded screws splitting the wood). Whilst I'd still be inclined to recommend that a selection of fasteners in other parts of the boat are pulled for examination, I do wonder if the main problem here is proximity to the head?

It's a fact that bronze skin fittings and seacocks can be corroded by exposure to human waste, and I'd guess that it wouldn't take very much (a slight leak in a pipe at some point in the past, or just a previous owner who didn't have a very good aim) to corrode those screws. That might also explain why in general, the corrosion is localised to the part of the screw that's in the butt block, rather than the part that's in the planking.

Lovely subject for my first post, I know.

[seo]

Dan,
You write in your post "It's a fact that bronze skin fittings and seacocks can be corroded by exposure to human waste." I haven't observed that, and am curious about it. If it is in fact a fact, I wonder what component of human waste that causes this. Ammonia would be my guess, but that a guess, not a fact.
The head is a pretty damp area, and is one of the places that I've seen a lot of structural problems in wooden hulls. Another is behind the ice box...
Probably the expansion of corroding screws could split either the plank end or a butt block. A good reason to not place butt blocks low down in the hull where the head is going to go.
The idea of replacing butt blocks with glued scarf joints is interesting. So's the use of bronze sheet metal, maybe around 3/16" thick, riveted instead of bolted, instead of wooden butt blocks. I've seen this on S&S 38' Loki yawls that were built in Germany. I think they weren't built by Abeking. For some reason I associate the word "Lemmwerder" or something like that, with their builder. Was that the builder's name, or the town? A bronze plate in contact with mahogany planking does raise the problem of hydroxide deterioration of the wood. On that subject, I've been told by a chemical engineer who works in the paper industry that the white frost of hydroxide that forms around bronze through-hulls, etc, is the same stuff that they use in paper plants in the "chemical pulping" process, where logs are turned into pulp. Maybe not the best thing to do to your planking. The same guy said that simply washing off the hydroxide with fresh water and soap would eliminate much of the destruction.
To try and stop that process I've experimented with insulating bronze parts from hull contact. Boring holes for through hulls, and packing the gap between the bronze and wood with epoxy. Sealing the wood, particularly the end grain in the hole, with epoxy. Setting the seacock on a plastic insulating gasket Plastic from anti-freeze jugs seems to work well. Doing the same thing with epoxy putty.
One thing I'm sure is a bad idea is to use a plank butt block as a convenient backing block for a through hull penetration.
Something I'm pretty sure is a good idea is to wash off concentrations of ammonia, salt, hydroxide, etc, from the hull interior. I use warm freshwater and household soap. I know that to many people freshwater seems like poison to boats, but I've worked in boatyards on freshwater lakes and rivers, and haven't seen that the boats immediately rot. I also think that salt entrains moisture from the air, and if you want a cabin that is not clammy inside, it's important to keep the salt concentration down.

[Lew Barrett]

Good seamanship involves matching how, when, and where you go with the boat and its gear, the crew, and the master. It is possible to drive a brand new vessel of impeccable design and build too hard and bust up gear and damage the hull. It's also possible to nurse along a tired hull, and to cover long trips in boats that are dismissed as useless clorox bottles by purists.


While this is true, and a great deal of the advice here is correct, it is also true that conditions change rapidly and how hard or how easy one might drive a vessel is not always in one's control.
I probably qualify as something of that purist, but there is a literally hidden truth to old boats and there is almost always a worse weakness someplace, and it is going to be at that junction of points that can't be seen without a lot of effort. The truth lies hiding in the nether regions.

Winter,you will be sailing a very active and changing coastline. If you never get out of sight of shore, if you always travel in the company of other vessels, if you never gets caught in a squall, or take a fast freighter's passing wake, then you can likely follow the advice to ride easy and go lightly, although that is one hell of a mission to have to fulfill. More likely, it will blow and there will be seas one day, nasty, choppy stuff with power behind it.

I don't get the impression that you are unwilling to do a complete job so I offer additional encouragement that this would be the best choice in programs.

I 'm not a sailor so I won't comment on those aspects of your boat, but overall, I think Wizbang is giving you some good advice, perhaps accompanied with a poke in the shoulder.
Ninety five percent of the time it is possible to read conditions in such a way as to avoid the worst of the weather around here. It's the other 5 percent you have to worry about, and I believe there is no putting a price on peace of mind. . Good luck with your restoration.

[DanBurrill]

Dan,
You write in your post "It's a fact that bronze skin fittings and seacocks can be corroded by exposure to human waste." I haven't observed that, and am curious about it. If it is in fact a fact, I wonder what component of human waste that causes this. Ammonia would be my guess, but that a guess, not a fact.
The head is a pretty damp area, and is one of the places that I've seen a lot of structural problems in wooden hulls. Another is behind the ice box...
Probably the expansion of corroding screws could split either the plank end or a butt block. A good reason to not place butt blocks low down in the hull where the head is going to go.
The idea of replacing butt blocks with glued scarf joints is interesting. So's the use of bronze sheet metal, maybe around 3/16" thick, riveted instead of bolted, instead of wooden butt blocks. I've seen this on S&S 38' Loki yawls that were built in Germany. I think they weren't built by Abeking. For some reason I associate the word "Lemmwerder" or something like that, with their builder. Was that the builder's name, or the town? A bronze plate in contact with mahogany planking does raise the problem of hydroxide deterioration of the wood. On that subject, I've been told by a chemical engineer who works in the paper industry that the white frost of hydroxide that forms around bronze through-hulls, etc, is the same stuff that they use in paper plants in the "chemical pulping" process, where logs are turned into pulp. Maybe not the best thing to do to your planking. The same guy said that simply washing off the hydroxide with fresh water and soap would eliminate much of the destruction.
To try and stop that process I've experimented with insulating bronze parts from hull contact. Boring holes for through hulls, and packing the gap between the bronze and wood with epoxy. Sealing the wood, particularly the end grain in the hole, with epoxy. Setting the seacock on a plastic insulating gasket Plastic from anti-freeze jugs seems to work well. Doing the same thing with epoxy putty.
One thing I'm sure is a bad idea is to use a plank butt block as a convenient backing block for a through hull penetration.
Something I'm pretty sure is a good idea is to wash off concentrations of ammonia, salt, hydroxide, etc, from the hull interior. I use warm freshwater and household soap. I know that to many people freshwater seems like poison to boats, but I've worked in boatyards on freshwater lakes and rivers, and haven't seen that the boats immediately rot. I also think that salt entrains moisture from the air, and if you want a cabin that is not clammy inside, it's important to keep the salt concentration down.


One reference I've found that mentions the problem (although it's mainly concerned with other factors affecting the corrosion resistance of though-hull fittings) is here (http://www.michel-christen.com/2T-H.pdf). You're correct in thinking that ammonia is the main problem, although this reference does raise the point that the use of domestic cleaning fluids can also have similar effects (I'd guess that plain old chlorine-based bleaches are worse for stainless steel, given it's propensity to crevice corrosion in the presence of chloride ions). To be honest, the exact cause has little bearing on solving the problem (though if it is found that this corrosion is only found in the head area it would seem to be a sensible explanation), except to suggest that it would be prudent to monitor that particular area more closely than has been done in the past. I did perhaps word my comments too strongly - I certainly wouldn't routinely condemn a head through-hull made of bronze (or in fresh water, which is what I deal with most of the time, brass). On the other hand, I would pay closer attention to it's condition than I would to a bronze/brass through-hull that wasn't in regular contact with black water.

You're entirely correct in thinking that hydroxide ions attack wood, although as I understand it, if through-hull fittings (or fasteners) are coated with a visible layer of hydroxide salts, it strongly suggests that there is a problem with too much cathodic protection (which could be due to sacrificial anodes, or to the proximity of a large lump of less noble metal, such as an iron keel or possibly even a steel boat moored next door). It's definitely something that I would be concerned about.

Your comment about using a butt block as a backing plate for a through-hull also makes a lot of sense - I can think of few things that would make the joint weaker, or impose more of a point load onto it.

Where I live and work, we have a lot of wooden boats compared to most of the UK, all of which spend most or all of their time in fresh water (actually it's worse than that, due to the amount of riverside vegetation that's washed into the system, I'd describe Broads water as 'rot soup'). It definitely leads to a different pattern of rot than boats kept in salt water, and normally durable woods rot out substantially quicker. Broads boats often have cabins and topsides in great condition (as they're normally kept under canvas covers or in wet sheds), but can be completely rotten below the waterline, whereas I'd expect wooden boats kept on salt water to have the opposite pattern of decay. Either way, I'd have no problem washing a wooden boat with fresh water, as long as it isn't allowed to pool inside the hull.

[boattruck]

Winter, Skimmed through this thread and have a few observations; for one light built boats always seem to present their troubles at the butt joints first, think of them as your 'canary' in the metaphorical coal mine. You should be planning on finding and redoing most of your underwater butts this haulout, you got lucky once, lets not push the envelope too much... If the planks seem to be up for it, building and fitting a new butt block (oak or purple heart or the like ,please...) is the most cost effective repair, I think for the fastenings, through bolts are a better bet. If the plank ends present with problems, the next most effective treatment in my mind is the scarf repair, scarf the forward and aft plank and essentially eliminate the butt, these take a little longer to do, but can yield a nice clean strong job. Remember in either scenario to reef out the caulking in the effected areas so you stand a better chance of pulling things back together. Tactically you will want to be planning for some general refastening soon, you want to do it before the boat really start to wholesale have trouble...Cheers, BT

[seo]

Butt blocks seem to be a big pain in the Butt. Ha ha, chortle chortle. But they are. Make them of hardwood, they trap water, they rot, they won't hold fastenings, etc, etc. Replace the butt block with bronze plate, that works, but does it cause hydroxide deterioration of the wood? Expensive, too.
Yeah, okay, replace the square butt with a scarfed glued joint. Kind of time consuming, makes spiling more difficult maybe?
So here's another idea. Make the butt blocks out of fiberglass. Yeah, I know, but think about it. Fiberglass is quite strong, doesn't rot, doesn't soak up water, doesn't corrode, doesn't conduct electricity, doesn't expand and contract. Gets along fine with metal or wood.
The idea would be to make up some blank panel, maybe 2" wider than your planks, say in 10' lengths. Use some standard high strength laminate, maybe matt/roving/matt/roving, until it's strong enough for the application? How thick, how strong? It depends on the size and loading of the hull, but my guess would be something between .25 and .5" thick. Then when building, or making a repair, when you need a butt block, cut off a proper-size length, and bolt (maybe rivet?) it in place, using big washers on the inside to spread the load. Maybe the holes in the FRP should be a loose fit, to allow the wood to come and go without interfering with the FRP's tendency to remain stable
. Would it need to be bedded? In order to fit it to a plank that's been backed out to conform to a curved second of the hull, it could be laid down in a thick putty of epoxy to get a correct fit.
Well, it's an idea.
I have never understood why builders go to such pains to fit butt blocks tight to the frames. I have held them back about .5" from the frames, and lapped them about .75-1" over the adjacent planks. The gap between frame and block gives good drainage, easy cleaning and inspection. If there's a problem with this system it hadn't appeared on boats that I repaired that way 25 years ago.

[boattruck]

Winter et al, Butt blocks may be a pain, but they have served this boat for something over 50 years, we could get exited and try and reinvent the wheel, or we could build new butt blocks and start the timer again for another 50 years...
Seo, as to the FRP buttblock idea, I have seen the failure of G-10 and the like in high load situations, strong and hard are its good qualities, but maybe its lack of 'resiliance' would be its downfall in this application?
As to the buttblock fit, I generally match what the boat has, tight, spaced or cut cornered, unless there is some obvious problem with how they are working...Cheers, BT

[Bob Adams]

I use plywood for replacement butt blocks, well encapsulated in epoxy. Won't split.

[wizbang 13]

Ply is good, if it's good ply.
Polycarb =deathtrap .
FG,can't see a problem
Re-place with original? I do not like oak anywhere on a boat.
Epoxy them in, or bed?, can you dry it out and keep it dry?

[wintermutt]

Thanks for the interesting suggestions regarding the butt-blocks.

The original block was 1" thick Honduras (?) mahogany, as are the planks. It was fully beveled on it's top edge, and installed to fill the space from rib to rib. It laps over the two adjacent planks by about 3/4" each side. The screws were 1-1/4" (#8) bronze. The replacement block I'm planning to use is 1-1/4" black locust. I'm fastening each plank with two bronze through-bolts c/w washers inside, and three 1-1/2" (#10) bronze screws.

I wasn't planning to use epoxy or any other bedding, as there was nothing there originally.

[Lew Barrett]

Bedding is always a good idea on a boat where wood surfaces meet. That they weren't bedded originally does not mean they shouldn't be now.

[wintermutt]

Bedding is always a good idea on a boat where wood surfaces meet. That they weren't bedded originally does not mean they shouldn't be now.

What does the bedding do? Create a better bond between the surfaces? Prevent moisture migration from the plank to the block?

And what do you recommend as a bedding material?

Thanks.

[Lew Barrett]

Make sure all faying surfaces are sealed (if wood, use shellac, red lead, etc). Do not skip that step.

A good oil based compound like Dolphinite should then be liberally applied directly to the butt block, and then go ahead and fasten/through bolt. Squeeze out can be wiped off later with a rag and some mineral spirits if you feel the need

The bedding compound will do such things as keeping your fastener holes from weeping; forms an elastic "gasket" (boundary) and acts as a paying material that will fill in any small crevices and complete the wood to wood fit. Standard practice. They cheaped out when they put the last butts in.

[wintermutt]

That all makes sense.
Thanks Lew, I appreciate the information, and I'll follow your advice.

[boattruck]

Winter, You arent likely to do any better than a black locust butt block, I do bed our bblocks, nothing harder to sell than a leak... I will prime plank and block with thinned red lead or bottom paint, if I am using Dolphinite. If I am using Sikaflex, I prime with penetrating epoxy. Cheers, BT