Full Batten Sail Question

[Garret]

To set the scene: 70 year old marconi rig, 1" external bronze sail track on a spruce mast. Approx. 55' luff.

While I'd love a traditional sail, a new one for my boat would be 5-6000. I have a never-used full batten sail that will fit almost perfectly & I have well under a thousand invested in it. I have the batcars for the end of the battens that will fit my track. I must admit that I'm curious as to how she'll perform with this sail anyway - though anything would be better than the 30 year old main on her now.

My question is: What should I do for sail slides in between the batcars? They are about 8 ft. apart (working from memory & I'd rather not unpack the sail right now unless I need to for an answer) & my concern is that having only 6 points of attachment would put too much strain on bronze track.

Do I need to add slides (I have plenty of 'em as well as webbing)? If so, how close should they be?

I have some ideas, but would appreciate thoughts from people who know more than I do.....

Thanks in advance -

Garret

[donald branscom]

To set the scene: 70 year old marconi rig, 1" external bronze sail track on a spruce mast. Approx. 55' luff.

While I'd love a traditional sail, a new one for my boat would be 5-6000. I have a never-used full batten sail that will fit almost perfectly & I have well under a thousand invested in it. I have the batcars for the end of the battens that will fit my track. I must admit that I'm curious as to how she'll perform with this sail anyway - though anything would be better than the 30 year old main on her now.

My question is: What should I do for sail slides in between the batcars? They are about 8 ft. apart (working from memory & I'd rather not unpack the sail right now unless I need to for an answer) & my concern is that having only 6 points of attachment would put too much strain on bronze track.

Do I need to add slides (I have plenty of 'em as well as webbing)? If so, how close should they be?

I have some ideas, but would appreciate thoughts from people who know more than I do.....

Thanks in advance -

Garret


You need some EXPERT advice. Just go to any sail loft and ask your questions. Also go to MORE THAN one sail loft.

[Garret]

You need some EXPERT advice. Just go to any sail loft and ask your questions. Also go to MORE THAN one sail loft.

Very true. I have been to one sail loft, but hoped to get some input from folks here - who are likely more familiar with the limitations imposed by a wood mast & old fashioned hardware.

[Bob Cleek]

You may not want to localize the load your sail track at each batten, for openers. Don's advice is spot on. We all like to do our own work on our boats, but the fact is there are some things that are really worth taking to the experts, sailmaking and related matters being the first of these. Bite the bullet and have a proper sail made, or get the one you have recut. A thirty year old main isn't that old if it's been taken care of and kept covered. You may get away with a restitching and some good repair work. On the other hand, a fully battened modern sail on a seventy-year old wooden boat is going to look like hot pants on your grandmother!

[DGentry]

A thirty year old sail that has been taken care of and kept covered AND not used particularly often for those thirty years, could indeed be OK. If it has been used regularly, then it's a rag.
Not a sailmaker, or a wooden spar expert, but if the only objection is aesthetics, then that's merely a personal choice, with only whatever importance one gives it.
Having had a few full battened sails, I tend to believe that they actually stress the rig less - when luffing - than other sails. And, I am generally most concerned about shock loading the rig when a sail is frantically and explosively luffing. Fully battened sails are vastly more pleasant!

I do agree that consulting a pro about how much support your sail's luff needs would be a good idea.

[Garret]

My current sail is over 30 years old, has been resewn at least once & is about as stiff an an overcooked spaghetti. It's shot, trust me.

[seawardadventures]

I can't speak to the question of properly sized track or additional slides. A sailmaker with experience in the kind of gear you want to use can resolve those issues. I do have experience with a full batten main on an aluminum mast. I was leary at first because it seemed well, not classic. I am an old school guy. However, I came to love that sail. I liked the way it reefed. It seemed made to flake nicely when furling. It came down into lazyjacks very neatly. It's performance overall was very good.

The battens hold the shape of the sail well and prevent a lot of the usual rustling and flapping when you are close to the wind. You have to get used to a quieter sail because the aural clues are slightly different from a traditional sail. It might be argued that the full batten is not as good in light winds because they don't allow the sail to be adjusted readily for more draft. That never bothered me.

I have seen a number of classic boats with full batten sails and they still look good to me. You even see photos of such things in WoodenBoat magazine. Technology still has ypu way ahead of cotton. Any sail that draws well and takes on an aerodynamically efficient shape usually strikes the right chord with me. Like you say the look of a sail can be simply a matter of personal taste. Good luck with your inquiries.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Standard spacing for slugs and slides is typically about 26" and not terribly critical. I'd probably space three between each batten (webbed-on). Of all the areas that get stress on sails, this is a fairly minor one (and the reason that you can often use much lighter fabric along the luff of some very highly-stressed racing sails). Full battens, if they are under tension and the sail is pre-cambered (which most are to some extent) tend to push forward, against the track on the back of the mast, rather than pulling aft on it. When batten cars jam, it's nearly always from the battens pushing forward, so the stress on the screws holding the track to the mast will generally be in shear, not stress trying to pull the track off the mast.

You may also need a headboard car if the sail doesn't already have one, and the most critical fit problem may be getting the tack setback on that particular sail to fit and line up properly with the tack fitting on your spars. If this is out of kilter, it can cause all sorts of wrinkles and tension problems. How well this sail works on your boat from a performance standpoint will likely depend on how close your boat is to the boat the sail was originally cut for. Draft amount, draft location and other design features were originally tweaked for a specific boat and its spars. Stick that same sail on a boat with similar size but very different displacement, hull fullness or fine-ness, heeling characteristics or spar-bend and it probably won't do very well. Put it on a boat that is fairly similar, adjust as needed to get a reasonable fit in critical places and it may work pretty well.

[Tomcat]

You could also hardware bond the screws/machine screws, I have done it on travelers that are running into a spruce stringer. Works great, and really doesn't take all that long.

[MiddleAgesMan]

Will the upper batten(s) clear your backstay?

[wizbang 13]

Any concern for the strain on the boat?

[Garret]

Thanks for all the replies!

Bob - I hope she doesn't look like a grandma in hotpants - that's an unpleasant thought though.... We'll see.

Todd - thank you for that info. It matches what one sail loft told me - though they said they had no wood mast experience. It does have a car for the headboard, if I remember correctly.

MAM - Yes, it will clear my backstay - very little roach to this sail

Tomcat - what do you mean by "hardware bond"? Not familiar with the term.

Bruce - strain on the boat? I'm hoping the new sail will make her faster (or at least point higher), but strain? She's a triple spreader rig with 3 widely spaced shrouds (right out to the caprail, so 12'+ spread) that attach to bronze plates that cover 3 or 4 frames.

[wizbang 13]

Hull, not rig. She is still a carvel boat! The increased mast compression is what I'm thinking about. Up on the shrouds, down on the step.
Oh, she'll be faster. Carriacou Sloops (Island race boats) almost all use catamaran sails for racing.

[Garret]

Hull, not rig. She is still a carvel boat! The increased mast compression is what I'm thinking about. Up on the shrouds, down on the step.
Oh, she'll be faster. Carriacou Sloops (Island race boats) almost all use catamaran sails for racing.

Gotcha. This sail is pretty traditionally shaped with little roach, so I don't think there'll be a big increase in sail area. It was originally made as the main for a Sangermani Schooner - 58 ft. I believe - so we'll see how the shape works.

Over the winter she will get major work finished, which includes ~30 new frames, new floors, all the keelbolts aft of the mast step, many new planks (~1000 bd. ft), a new horn timber (laminated 8x8) & a complete refastening below the waterline. Above the waterline, she was taken down to bare wood 3 years ago & extensive refastening done, 12 years ago, most of the stem was replaced/rebuilt, & 15 years ago the aft 10' of the hull was completely replaced. The strongback under the mast step is 12"x13" & the 6' long mast step is 8"x13. The oak frames are 2x3 on about 15" centers with 1 3/4" AYC planks. The mast partners are 2x12 with a major cast bronze piece to beef them up. Basically, she's built like a brick you-know what.

So, maybe foolishly, I'm not too worried about the hull.

[Jay Greer]

I posed the same question to my friend and sailmaker Skip Elliott of Elliott Pattison Sails in Newport Beach CA. Skip builds a lot of experimental sails for high performance boats and out of curiostity I asked what would be needed for converting an existing rig to a full batten set up. His ansewere was, "A full batten sail creates a lot of pressure on the sail track. So new track that is designed specificaly for the thrust of a full batten sail is a must." He went on to agree that more drive can be obtained from such a sail and that the sail itself is not all that much more expensive but, that the real expense is in the changing of the mast fittings. Because of the expense of the special track and cars and in cases where added roach will interfere with a standing backsay, switching to running backs is a must. Changing to running backs is not as critical as one would think as the leach of the main takes most of the tension when the boat is hard on the wind. This is easy to see by checking the standing backstay tension under these conditions. Often the standing back will be almost slack when the main is sheeted in hard on boats that do not have tension adjusting set ups. Personally, I have no objections to running backs and actually just added a set to my own boat although it does not have a full batten main.
Jay
An added note here is that "Radiance", the modern version of the Herreshoff ketch "Tichonderoga", has a full batten main and mizzen. The boat when match raced against her sister ship easily out ran her.

[wizbang 13]

Steel frames on Radiance, very able to take increased rigging loads WO the hull moving.

[Ian McColgin]

I really liked the improvement in Granuaile (LFH MarcoPolo) when I built a fully battened foresail. The plan was to next make a mizzen and lastly a main.

The thrust is located where the batten cars land. This is easily accomodated by the regular track with the screws in the way of the cars replaced with bolts - thread the wood and harden the holes with a little CPES. Depending on how the cars land, you'll want to change either two or three fastenings. Tracks that are stamped sheet should be stiffened with a bit of strap filling the alleyway. Tracks made of stepped bronze strapping, whether one or two piece, need no further beefing up.

Unless you're amazingly lucky with the layout of the battens and reef points, you'll probably need to do this in more places than just full sail batten car locatons. As with all sails, the strain on the headboard pulling back can be considerable in the reefed locations since the halyard block is then too high above the peak to pull it into the mast. You should bolt there as well.

There are two levels of full-battening - nearly conventional shape and really high roach.

The nearly conventional shape that fits under an existing backstay trims rather like the normal sail. The battens just make the sail more durable, quieter tacking, and easier to control during striking or reefing. It's not clear to me that this is worth more than being part of the full batten fad. Regular battens (the "sailmakers' friend" for the damage they do) don't give that much useful extra sail and were I interested in durable cruising sails but not going high roach, I'd go with a little hollow roach and no battens at all.

If you go high roach, the trade is usually worth the extra work of runners. This sail wants to be trimmed with less twist than normal, so get the sheet car well outboard and use the vang aggressivly. Oddly, the high roach does not add to heeling moment. I think this is because as the boat heels at least some of the sail's thrust is vectored up. It's really nice. Even one fully battened high roach sail on Granuaile boosted her performance from a bit of a clunker to something more like a sport utility vehicle.

G'luck

[Jay Greer]

Steel frames on Radiance, very able to take increased rigging loads WO the hull moving.
Very true. The hull, built by Legendary Yachts, is very strong. In addition the boat has carbon fiber spars and rod rigging. The most amazing thing that one experiences when sailing her is the acceleration in gusts. The boat does not heel over first and then start moving. It just goes!! The same is even more evident in their new wersion of the Herrehsoff "Bounty".
Jay

[Garret]

Hi Jay -

Thanks for the info. The only reason I would consider the full batten sail is that I own it. Not only that, but I have around $700 in it - instead of the 5-6000 for a new sail. So - to try it out, I only have to spend time sewing on the slides (I have batcars, slides & webbing). It is a traditional shape - with very little roach (3 or 4 " maybe?).

My track is 1" extruded (I'm 90% sure - I'll look at it this weekend to make sure it's not rolled) bronze track like this:

1147

I already have running backs, so they don't need to be added. I also have an adjustable backstay.

It currently is screwed down every 2" or so & I plan to redo all the screws this winter (remove, drill, plug, redrill).

[Garret]

Thanks Ian -

Pls see my response to Jay about the track. You are suggesting some (say) 1/8" flat bronze inside the track to spread out the load (IOW - kinda like a 10+/- hole rectangular washer)? Not a bad idea.

The sail is traditional in shape - so it will fit under the backstay + I have running backs.

[Garret]

Bruce & Jay -

Neoga does have diagonal bronze strapping along the frames that support the shrouds. They probably cover 8 frames or so.

No carbon fiber or rod rigging though...;-)

[Jay Greer]

Since this is an experiment on your part, I would be inclined to try the sail and see how it preforms knowing well that, it is very likely that some adjustments in gear will be required. This is, of course, unless safety is not an issue. The boat will tell you what it needs. However, I would still double check with a competent sail maker. Just in case!
Jay

[Garret]

Since this is an experiment on your part, I would be inclined to try the sail and see how it preforms knowing well that, it is very likely that some adjustments in gear will be required. This is, of course, unless safety is not an issue. The boat will tell you what it needs. However, I would still double check with a competent sail maker. Just in case!
Jay

Good advice. As I mentioned, I did check with one I trust, but he had no wood mast/bronze track experience.

Safety an issue? What fun is being prepared? :d:d

[Jay Greer]

Thank you Garret. Do keep us posted. I am very interested in your project.
Jay

[Garret]

Thank you Garret. Do keep us posted. I am very interested in your project.
Jay

No - thank you! This forum is truly a wonderful place. Coming soon: a thread about how I should put together a staysail club - but not too soon, as I need to focus on little things like keelbolts...

I won't have news 'til the spring/early summer. Well, hopefully spring - as you can see from above I have just a bit of work to do.....

[Jay Greer]

That's Ok. I know we all wish you well.
Jay

[Hwyl]

If it has a cunningham, I'd use that fairly regularly maybe even on a schedule like odd numbered days, to alternate the places where the battcars engage the track. The can wear fairly severely although I should imagine that bronze would wear less than aluminum once the cars are through the aluminums hardened surface

[donald branscom]

Some of the "modern" stuff is crap.
Bat cars and stuff may be good on a racing boat but not a cruising boat.
Some of the "old fashioned" stuff has proven itself.
Some of the new stuff only lasted long enough for the racing boat
to cross and make money on advertising, then it was finished.

Be careful about that kind of thinking.

Lots of racing crap laying around the yards.

[rbgarr]

Garret,

Check with Tom Kiley at Rockport Marine for his suggestions regarding wood masts and fully battened mains. As rigging boss he's seen alot of improvements tried on older boats and if he doesn't know about track issues specific to your spar construction, will probably know who does. You can mention my name if you wish.... and if it helps (!). No promises there. :D

[Garret]

If it has a cunningham, I'd use that fairly regularly maybe even on a schedule like odd numbered days, to alternate the places where the battcars engage the track. The can wear fairly severely although I should imagine that bronze would wear less than aluminum once the cars are through the aluminums hardened surface

Good idea. It is bronze, but changing the wear points won't hurt.

[Garret]

Some of the "modern" stuff is crap.
Bat cars and stuff may be good on a racing boat but not a cruising boat.
Some of the "old fashioned" stuff has proven itself.
Some of the new stuff only lasted long enough for the racing boat
to cross and make money on advertising, then it was finished.

Be careful about that kind of thinking.

Lots of racing crap laying around the yards.

No doubt. But a savings of over $4,000 leads me to give it a shot.

Maybe when I have all this work done I'll have a few bucks for sails.

[Garret]

Garret,

Check with Tom Kiley at Rockport Marine for his suggestions regarding wood masts and fully battened mains. As rigging boss he's seen alot of improvements tried on older boats and if he doesn't know about track issues specific to your spar construction, will probably know who does. You can mention my name if you wish.... and if it helps (!). No promises there. :D

I've met Tom - but don't know him. I will try to look him up. I also though of talking to Nat Wilson.

Thanks!

[Phil Y]

Seems to me you guys are worrying this half to death. Like Todd says, sew on 2 or 3 slides between each batten and give it a go. Think in terms of allowing enough material between each slide so that the sail will flake nicely with the battens, held in place by the mast track, lying on top of the boom, and the folds falling nicely either side. I think you'll like the way a fully battened sail behaves. Much quieter between tacks, and much better behaved when lowering. I don't think you are talking a bout a high tech space age roachy main which will place all sorts of weird stresses on your rig. Sounds like a pretty conservative sail which happens to have full length battens. Just do it:)
Phil

[Garret]

Seems to me you guys are worrying this half to death. Like Todd says, sew on 2 or 3 slides between each batten and give it a go. Think in terms of allowing enough material between each slide so that the sail will flake nicely with the battens, held in place by the mast track, lying on top of the boom, and the folds falling nicely either side. I think you'll like the way a fully battened sail behaves. Much quieter between tacks, and much better behaved when lowering. I don't think you are talking a bout a high tech space age roachy main which will place all sorts of weird stresses on your rig. Sounds like a pretty conservative sail which happens to have full length battens. Just do it:)
Phil

Actually, it's a Doyle sail, not Nike....:d

Thanks, I like your style. That's pretty much what I'm gonna do, but I've gotten some great advice on this forum & it never hurts to ask. I shoulda pointed out right from the get-go (or at least more clearly) that it's what you describe - a traditional sail with full battens.

[KAIROS]

Our new mainsail was built by North (sailmaker there was a known entity). Both North and Carrol Hasse recommended that the top two battens be full. Why just those two is maybe a topic for a different thread. Anyway, at least the batten-cars that North put on did not work for us, so we had the sail recut for regular battens. Here was the main problem: When reaching and running, the full-batten compression rolled the cars over enough (toward the downwind side of the track) that the cars themselves chafed on the mast on one tack, and against some wiring clipped onto the mast on the other tack. Bright-finished spruce mast with u-shaped bronze/brass track. Probably not much of an issue on an aluminum mast.

[Todd Bradshaw]

It's still an issue on many aluminum masts because it tends to make the battens/cars bind when going up and down, as well as possibly chewing up the annodizing or the metal itself. This is part of the "battens pushing forward" problem. Where the typical load on something like a traveler, genoa or vang car is mostly pulling the car upward and away from the track, a batten car tends to be pushed forward, toward the track, which then brings different load-bearing surfaces into play. As to the two full top battens, it kind of depends on the layout of the sails roach up top. Battens need to be about three times as long as the local amount of roach - otherwise, the roach may tend to hinge at their forward ends. With a fairly "roachy" top section, you can get to the point where your 3X batten extends most of the way across the head already and it's often easier to get good, predictable shape up there by going full width and compression on the top batten or two. The other way to do it sometimes is to opt for really good tapered leech battens with very soft forward ends. Even though they don't extend all the way across the head, the front end is so soft that they won't make spots that poke out.

Back when I was making modern radial sails I built a few that were either/or in terms of battens. They had full length pockets that were pretty heavy duty, but also had a reinforced section, mid-pocket where the forward tip of a regular, tapered leech batten would fall. In light air, in particular, the leech battens often seemed to make the sail more responsive. One problem with full battens is that it's possible to have good-looking sail shape all the time - whether you have it trimmed properly or not. In light air, the leech battens wouldn't let you get away with that.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/Speedball-1.jpg

[KAIROS]

.......other way to do it sometimes is to opt for really good tapered leech battens with very soft forward ends. Even though they don't extend all the way across the head, the front end is so soft that they won't make spots that poke out....

This is what we ended up with.....the forward ends are extremely thin and taper aft.


......In light air, in particular, the leech battens often seemed to make the sail more responsive. One problem with full battens is that it's possible to have good-looking sail shape all the time - whether you have it trimmed properly or not. In light air, the leech battens wouldn't let you get away with that....

If only the upper two battens are full, as we started with, they tended to hang the sail as if on a coat-hanger, which helped the mainsail maintain some shape in very light wind yet did not interfere as much with choosing how to correctly adjust the trim of the lower (majority) part of the sail. But still, from this 'trim' perspective in particular, I like the non-full-length batten (roach batten) option better now that I've tried both on this one boat. Maybe if I'd grown up with full-length battens it would be different. Glad I tried it though, and I think the Thread Starter should give it a whirl.....since he has the sail.

[maybe just use it in 15 knot wind to see how it works (mast chafe at cars, especially) before making other modifications to accommodate the full-battens.....the sail can be re-cut and batten pockets changed if full-battens don't work out]

[Garret]

This is what we ended up with.....the forward ends are extremely thin and taper aft.



If only the upper two battens are full, as we started with, they tended to hang the sail as if on a coat-hanger, which helped the mainsail maintain some shape in very light wind yet did not interfere as much with choosing how to correctly adjust the trim of the lower (majority) part of the sail. But still, from this 'trim' perspective in particular, I like the non-full-length batten (roach batten) option better now that I've tried both on this one boat. Maybe if I'd grown up with full-length battens it would be different. Glad I tried it though, and I think the Thread Starter should give it a whirl.....since he has the sail.

[maybe just use it in 15 knot wind to see how it works (mast chafe at cars, especially) before making other modifications to accommodate the full-battens.....the sail can be re-cut and batten pockets changed if full-battens don't work out]

I guess that'd be me ;-)

However - I'm not sure what it is I should try. Try the sail as is (full battens to cars), or the soft end not quite full battens?

Wouldn't it make sense to try full battens first - as that's what I already have? I could then dial back to the others if that doesn't work out.

Thanks!

Garret

[Jay Greer]

Garret I agree with you fully. Try the full battens first. You can always dial it back. One thing that I enjoy a lot is tinkering with rigs in order to discover new efficiency.
Jay

[KAIROS]

I meant: try the full-battened sail as is, first.

[Garret]

I meant: try the full-battened sail as is, first.

Will do - thanks!

[Figment]

Wow this thread has me in love with my Strong track all over again!

:D