Spinnaker pole attachment to gaff rigged mast?

[redbopeep]

OK, How's it done? That is, how does one attach a spinnaker pole (or whisker pole) to a mast that has a gaff sail on it? Can't use a track on the front of the mast...what's the trick? Our boat's original plans for spars included spinnaker poles but nothing about that attachment to the mast.

Thanks for any insights.

[Ian McColgin]

Whisker poles usually have a crutch like head, rather like the jaws on the gaff. If you're making a more heavily loaded spinnaker pole, you'll want up and down hauls to keep the jaws in place vertically on the mast, as well as a lift and vang for the other end.

G'luck

[wizbang 13]

I only use those things in the lightest of conditions, to do 3 knots instead of 2. If I can go 6 with a chute, I can do 4 without it.
When I use one on my cruising gaffer, I "float" the pole.No fancy schmancy fittins. Poke a pointed end through the clew, and run a line from the other pole end to the spar, or even a shroud. Definately noy a racers technique. Also, I learned to reach instead of run.

[JimConlin]

Is the mainsail on hoops or a track?

[redbopeep]

Schooner. The mainsail is on a track. The foremast is the one w/hoops. We actually would like to work with a whisker pole on the fore though our boat did originally have a couple big spinnaker poles.

However, we'd like to build one of these spinnaker poles sooner rather than later because we'd like to also use it midships (off our heavy-duty rubrail) with a flopper stopper system. We've just spent way too many nights of late in exposed anchorages and big Pacific swells...so I'm beginning to think about that spinnaker pole again :) Strange reason to get going on the spinnaker pole, but that's it. There'll be a thread about home-made flopper stoppers here for you all soon enough...

I need to understand how we're going to use the pole for its PRIMARY purpose in regards to end fittings. Although, just today (we're in Santa Barbara) I looked at the schooner Mayan who has removable ends on her spinnaker poles. She is a staysail schooner and the ends stay attached to the tracks on each side of the foremast. Interesting. We're on the end tie behind Mayan and I just spent about an hour staring at her details. Nice boat and on the market too--owned by David Crosby.

[Ian McColgin]

A schooner is not a boat I'd waste a spinnaker on. In almost all downwind conditions you're better off tacking down, perhaps spreading a nice big golly if you like to fill the sail locker with kites. So your "spinnaker" pole is really to hold out some flopper stoppers. Make it as such and don't screw around with a spinnaker pole.

The easiest way is to make an attachment at the chainplates which could be as simple as the U part of a shackle through a longer clevis pin at the bottom of your shroud turnbuckles to which the flopper's little boom can be attached. A lift siezed up to a shroud and fore and aft guys complete the job. By the way, if you make the boom longer than your dink and add an endless line, this makes a great place to leave the dink over night, where it won't drift into the boat or bang about. This is actually a very common solution, if you look about.

I experimented with flopper stoppers and ended up hating them. Especially after dark in a busy anchorage they are a hazard to passing dinks even if lit, which they usually are not, and they don't really resolve much as they add more groaning noises than the roll they may reduce. Far better to bridle the boat so she can be turned into the waves even if current or wind would not allow that with a normal bow mooring. Once you get the hang of bridling, you'll wonder why you ever spent a noxious night.

[redbopeep]

Oh, Ian. Bridling. Don't get me going. The wind shifts relative to the waves, you're adjusting it every half hour, then you give up...next morning it's wrapped around the keel and you're spending an hour untangling the whole mess.

Maybe our problem is we need to stop anchoring in these unprotected places...or stay out of anchorages near big ship channels where the waves can come from any and every direction.

Back to spinnaker poles--I'm glad to get your take on that. We do have several light air sails (golly, a couple fish, and a huge genoa which probably does need a whisker pole to be used) and I've not been anxious to purchase a spinnaker but do like the idea of double duty poles.

[wizbang 13]

Sleep in the zode? Leave the West Coast? Add 2 large amas? Increase alcohol consumption? (cures for harbor rolling)
If you think harbor rolling is bad, wait untill you start running at sea! Ever hear of that plastic goo in a can for whipping? "whip end dip"? It also describes what the boat does running at sea.

[Ian McColgin]

redbopeep, it's true that anything works a little and nothing works all the time. In my area when there's a swell running across the breeze, the breeze is usually steady enough. Also, my boats have had berths so close to the waterline and near enough the centerline that rolling was not uncomfortable. And prior to Marmalade, with her huge form stability, my boats didn't roll much anyway. Heel hard underweigh, yes. Roll, no.

The flopper stoppers I played with were triangles of wood on a three part bridle with a weight along one edge so that as it went down in the water the light side tipped up and it sank easily, deploying to flat when the roll took it back up. I played, not no certain conclusion, with two types of shock absorber. Both were similar to dock line snubbers but home made. One try was on the bridle leg to the unweighted corner. The other was a snubber above where the bridle came together. The advantage of the former was it was neater. The latter allowed a gentler start to the anti-roll.

I really think that you want a lighter whisker pole on the jib than would be suitable for the flopperstopper as well and it will be handier to just have three different spars - one whisker pole and two flopper/dinghey booms, rather than two whiskers that are heavy for the jib and light for the flopperstopper.

G'luck

[redbopeep]

I'm mostly talking about exposed anchorages Wiz. ones that require a bit of sailing 'at sea' to get to.Form stability. Yep. We have great shallow draft but a wide round bottom with sharp transition to the keel. Heel excessively we don't but Roll at anchor we do. Berth location at anchor is a problem. We sleep up in the charthouse at anchor for ability to easily see around the anchorage and get on deck quickly. heavy duty ....thats why I was thinking spinnaker pole. But you must think that is too heavy duty for this ?

[Noah]

Just a note - if you plan on racing, you have to have the Spinnaker Pole (or whisker pole) "fixed" to the mast - otherwise it becomes an outrigger, which is illegal. I was on the protest committee for a competitor that used a boat hook as a whisker pole to hold out his genoa. It was illegal, and we had to throw him out (the rules are the rules), though it was probably less effective than a true whisker pole.

[redbopeep]

Noah that is a good point. I was on a race committee where we allowed racers to use a boat hook if the crew member was touching the mast with one hand while holding the hook with the other. Really.

Off the thread drift (I've started another thread for flopper stoppers here (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?120714-From-Spin-pole-thread-to-Flopper-Stoppers-for-BIG-boats...&p=2734383#post2734383)) and onto that I still need to know how to attach whisker poles and spinnaker poles to this gaff-rigged foremast. Even a whisker pole on this boat is going to be pretty big...

Can I make something for the whisker pole that is like one of those leather sockets that people wear to support a fishing pole? I could strap something like that around the mast between hoops...

[Jay Greer]

Are we speaking of the "Mayan"? I know that boat and its owner well.
If so, gaff jawed poles would be a simple solution. The boat could be rigged with a gollywobler, spinaker or Asym and a spitire just for fun. We did that combination on "Wanderlure II" and it goes like stink!
Jay

[SchoonerRat]

If you're sailing a schooner and you think you need a chute, you are probably hating life. You are headed DADW (dead ass down wind), the wind is too light to get your big ole boat moving on a reach. The hoist on your foremast is so short that the chute is left, seriously, in the shadow of your main, golly, staysail, or any other rag you happen to have flying. Your big heavy boat doesn't respond readily to puffs. Your steering doesn't respond quickly enough to adjust to any shifts in the light fluky wind.

I sailed Ranger for nearly a year before I even knew I had a chute. I spent hours before the Ensenada Race, digging through piles of tangled line to find the rigging. It took 4 people to carry the pole down to the boat. I spread the sail out on a large expanse of grass. Looking at the sail out of context, it seemed huge. The cloth looked good, the seams were all good. I saw visions of my boat surfing down the waves at warp speed.

A schooner rig just does not do spinnakers well.

The once huge piece of nylon looked like a postage stamp hanging on my foremast. I managed to convince myself that the added speed was worth the hassel, but the main reason I flew the chute during the race was that I didn't want to be the only boat out there without one.

Set your pole up for your flopper stopper. If you want to fly a chute, get an asymetrical. I've never used one on a schooner (they aren't traditional - but then neither is a spinnaker). You already have a pole sticking out the front of your boat.

I had a GIANT jib on Ranger. It came off of a large cutter with a minimum of recutting. I'm sure that it measured over 200% of my J measurement. I couldn't even think of putting it up on a beat, and even on a beam reach, it was just too much sail forward; but it seemed every bit as fast as the chute downwind, and didn't require some 500 lbs. of additional gear. It also made it much simpler to keep my passengers involved in helping to run the boat, and also minimized the possibility of an inexperienced hand causing any of a number of catastrophies that a spinnaker can create.

[Jay Greer]

"Ranger" are you Frank Jensen?
Jay

[SchoonerRat]

"Ranger" are you Frank Jensen?
Jay
I don't think so, my ID says Irv Heller! I've always assumed that was me:d

[redbopeep]

Hey there, all, I'm back.

We spent several hours enjoying the little Maritime Museum here at the harbor. Then walked by Mayan again to gaze upon her beauty (and those spinnaker poles!).

I'm not "craving" a spinnaker by any stretch of the imagination. However, we want to do the flopper stopper thing and that brings up the issues of poles. We don't exactly have tons of room for "extra" stuff aboard and this is it--we live aboard so it's all gotta fit. Further making us think about spinnaker poles is that we just spent some time at the San Francisco Yacht Club talking with people there who knew the boat when she was named "Privateer." She was sailed alot around the bay, did the '67 Transpac and owned by David Allen. He is well known for a later boat he owned, Imp. Well, anyway, looking at some great pictures of the boat under sail with spinnaker and golly both set--what a lovely shot that was (we're trying to get a copy!) we also learned that they loved to sail her with the spinnaker and golly set in light winds. They also had a huge headsail that overlapped the fore shrouds that we still have in the sail inventory. The sail is cut like this one (http://www.sandemanyachtcompany.co.uk/uploads/300/01Flying.jpg) shown on another boat. I don't know what to call THAT sail, but ours is not set flying it is hanked to the jibstay and it is a bear to get up or down hanked on as such. We've used it one time in very light winds. It's been patched many times and is really on its last legs. Impossible to tack, too.

We're always sailing shorthanded--just hubby and me--so we're not anxious to go playing around with a spinnaker rather than the golly we already own, but if we can make a spinnaker pole to the specs of the original ones the boat had AND use it for other things, we thought that would be quite clever and nice.

Jay-- first what is a spitire? Second....I'm going to PM you as I have a message for the owner of Mayan.

[Jay Greer]

A spit fire is a light full cut jib that directs air into the chute on certain angles of broad reaching. On "Wanderlue II" we called it the "Japsail" as it resembled a Japanese flag. Another sail that helps when close reaching is a Tall Boy. Today the asyemetrcal chute makes down wind sailing a lot less hassel as it needs no pole and is set from and doused in a sock. Very simple for short handed sailing. When setting the Golly Wobbler and other big kites on "Wanderlure II", "Dauntless" and "Serena" we usually dropped the main allowing the Golly to take over as it was more efficient. Sloane also had a full Golly and other light kites for "Spike Africa".
Jay

[Stephen]

1123
This is similar to what we have on C. The whisker pole (with the cone shown above on the left) drops into the forward face of the spider band and a nut is threaded below to hold it in place. With a topping lift on the spar it can be lifted up and stowed vertically adjacent the mast when not in use.
Typically the pole's length is the same as the distance from the mast to the end of the bowsprit.
A pole is on my list too - I've recently been experimenting with hollow spars and birdsmouth construction.

[seo]

Would you please describe the boat and rig. There's lots of different kinds of schooners.
I know this doesn't respond to your question, but allow me to put in a plug for a square foretopsail. I've sailed on three schooners with that rig (Pride 1, Amistad, and Westward (well okay, that's a course, not a foretopsail).
For the most downwind for the buck, I think a course yard is best. With modern gear and materials the sail can be quite light, and no need to lay aloft in a blow and swash y'r buckles, yaaargh!!! me hearties!!.
I'd recommend looking at L.F. Herreshoff's description and plans for the course yard on "Marco Polo," which he described as a schooner, although it's an odd one. One advantage of the square, either topsail or course, is that it damps roll when running, while a spinnaker seems to amplify roll.
With a fully developed rig it's possible to sail to windward pretty well with a square topsail, but it's a lot of windage and rigging to fool with if all you want to do is go downhill.
The Westward actually had a trangular raffee that set above the course yard, while both the Pride and Amistad had topgallants (now why aren't they properly called "upper topsail"? They set on the topmast...). These were set flying, and were great fun for the crew to fool with, but I never had the feeling they were doing much. The Pride also would set the deck awning as a course, rigged to the crojack yard, and she also had stunsails. So many strings to pull.
In terms of rolling while at anchor, I sailed the Amistad with her crojack crossed, but the yard, sail, and gear gone, and she rolled noticeably more than with the whole clownshow up there. I think the weight aloft slowed her roll, which in my mind is a reasonably trade-off for a slightly deeper roll.

[bucheron]

Seo, click the What we're doing now link it gives you a pretty good idea of the rig.

Redbopeep, do you go wing-and-wing downwind? You might need a preventer on the boom and a vang on the fore gaff to keep the sail forward. IMO, your jib-headed main should not make much turbulence aloft, which can cause a gaff fore to gybe accidently.

I am suggesting pushing your fore out on the windward side and filling the space with an assymetric spi on the leeward side.

I might be game to try it if the waves weren't too big.

I notice the schooner with assy spi in someone's link http://www.sandemanyachtcompany.co.uk/uploads/300/01Flying.jpg

is essentially reaching, not going dead down-wind or near it.

[redbopeep]

Yes, we do wing-on-wing-on-wing :)

Jib and main on leeward side with gaff foresail on windward side. We use preventer and vang on main and a preventer on the fore when we're doing this. The staysail just gets in the way of the jib picking up a good breeze so we have it down when we're on a very broad reach to a run.

[Lucky Luke]

Seo: what the heck are a "crojack yard" and a "stunsail"???? I have a few dictionaries to help me with my often too poor English, but none knows more than a few of the most common words of marine terminology! Very frustrating!

Aslo: how was this top-gallant set "Flying" on the Pride and Amistad??? Did not have to go aloft???

Commenting on this question of spinnaker pole on a schooner: even if not to be used downwind, which is for sure not the most favored allure for a schooner, unless it is a close reach where the spinnaker pole is right against the fore-stay, a spinnaker's efficiency improves much if the pole can be set perpendicular to the apparent wind, which all racing crews do.

What I would however discuss is the real need to set it on a pole since she will not be racing...??? This spar causes a lot more work than the asymmetrical spinnaker (MPS) that is so easy to use, with a sock, by a small crew. And, disagreeing on that with Ian Mc Colgin or "Schooner-rat", a MPS takes a real lot of wind, more than a jib would no matter how big and overlapping it is, just because a MPS has a very different shape. Does it look like the MPS on Altair is inefficient ? See how it bends the topmast!!!:

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/lucky-luke-vn/pic12.jpg


Still, if you want to have a pole rigged on you foremast, you can (just!) see the attachment for the cup (removed on this pic) on the forward part of the mast band that also supports the hallyard winches on my old boat, and the pole laying on the side-deck:

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/lucky-luke-vn/Canto5-web-1.jpg


...but not as long as THIS pole!!:

http://www.sandemanyachtcompany.co.uk/uploads/272/01AMain.jpg

This schooner, Amelia, is absolutely gorgeous!

http://www.sandemanyachtcompany.co.uk/uploads/300/01Flying.jpg

[SchoonerRat]

Great shots, Luke. There is just nothing as beautiful as a schooner under sail.

I've never tried an asymmetric on a schooner. I've found them to be excellent in light air on other boats. Their light air performance might be improved by dousing things like the fore, golly, topsail... , and setting the sail in some clear air. There are so many places to hang rags on a schooner that it's easy to forget that more sail area does not necessarily mean more speed.

[seo]

"Cro-jack" is a shortened version of "cross-jack" which is the lowest yard on a square topsail schooner. It's not a real yard, because it doesn't have a sail set on it. It's use is control the bottom corners (clews) of the square topsail. In some rigs it's called the "lower yard," and in some the "course yard," because the course sail is rigged on it. That's why a topsail schooner always has two yards crossed on the foremast, and the lower one doesn't have a sail furled on it. Because you can control the shape of the sail pretty well it's a surprisingly good rig going to windward. The "Amistad," which is a replica of a Baltimore Clipper schooner, would tack through a little more than 100º, and would foot along pretty well, maybe 6-7 knots in 15 kt of wind and fairly flat water.
The course, on the other hand, is pretty much a downwind (broad reach) sail, because the sheets lead down to the deck.
The topsail schooner involves a lot of gear, and requires a big crew to manage and maintain it. I've read those accounts of "two men and a boy" managing a small brig, but they must have been mighty men. setting a foresail involves hoisting the yard and sail up with the halyards, and it's harder work than hoisting the gaff mainsail on the same vessel.
On the Westward the course was rigged on tracks welded to the steel yard, so it could be set about like a shower curtain, and recovered into the mast the same way. The sail was stowed by lashing it to the foremast, which did not look elegant. on the Herreshoff "Marco Polo," the yard was designed to be stowed on deck. The article "How to Build Marco Polo" in Herreshoff's "Sensible Cruising Designs" includes the construction drawings, and as I remember the article describes how they'd be used.
"Stunsail" is a shortened version of the term "studding sail," which is a small square sail that's rigged to a spar that's called a stunsail boom, I think. It is lashed to the windward outboard end of a square yard, and adds a bit of sail area to a squaresail.
The topgallant sail of the Pride 1 and Amistad were set flying, using the halyard to hoist the yard and sail up from the deck. The halyard was made fast at the center of the boom, and then given a single hitch around one yardarm, so that it would hoist vertically without getting all fouled up in the rigging. One guy would have to go up onto the topsail yard, where the sheets were made up to the sail's tacks, and a parrel lashing was put around the mast and the center of the yard. Then it was hoisted up the rest of the way, with the hitch taken off the yardarm end so that the yard could go horizontal.
In my experience setting this sail requires practice, and three people: One to to aloft, one to haul the halyard down below, and a third to keep an eye on the process, because neiither of the other two have a very good view of the yard as it goes aloft.

[Lucky Luke]

Thank you very much, Seo!
Cross-jack= "basse vergue de hunier" (= lower yard) or "vergue de fortune carree" (= course yard. Course= fortune carree) and studding-sails = "bonettes" ! Everything becomes clear when expressed in the correct language (for me!) ;)

This hoisting of the top-gallant ("perroquet"....but I would rather call it "hunier volant" = upper topsail) with it's yard together must have been quite a stunt!

You will be interested in the two following photos of models I have in my office:

This one, "La Recouvrance", is a model of the replica of a French privateer = "Corsaire". The replica is slightly different from the original, like between the old and the new Pride's, and the model is of the replica. Sorry for the foresail sheeted on the wrong side! You can (just) see the studding boomes ("vergues de bonnettes") on the lower yard/ cross-jack/ course yard that would sometimes be used for studding-sails, apparently triangular since there is no studding boom (or yard?) on the upper yard. Then I cannot imagine having to hoist up the upper topsail and it's yard, which has two halyards, on such a boat!!!

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/lucky-luke-vn/P1020533.jpg


This other one is of the American privateer "Berbice", with all what she could carry: course (which sail is fitted with a lower yard) with studding-sails each side, topsail with studding-sails too, and even one along the leech of the mainsail!
Noticeable on this one is the absence of jumper between the masts but a double stay forward of the main, one of them being tight depending on which tack the boat is. Between this and this and that, the crew must have been busy....but they had a lot of them before... getting killed or sailing a prize!

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/lucky-luke-vn/P1020532.jpg


I think the Pride had similar rig, no? (but also a jumper). That is what it looks like on this picture taken....with my old boat on the trailer just in front! This picture was taken just after she got re-masted, in France.

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/lucky-luke-vn/brest1.jpg


I can effectively see, on the above picture, that she has only two fixed yards while on the hereafter one, where she carries full canvass, nicely bending her lower yard - and hugging the wind, indeed! - there is an upper topsail with it's own yard.

http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/64/pride_for_trek_earth.jpg


Here: she really shows what (sails) she's got!!! Must have been something to sail her!

http://www.pride2.org/images/PRIDE%20II%20FULL%20SAIL%20-%20History.JPG

[seo]

Luke,
I think we've strayed a long way from the original topic, and hope that people aren't irritated.
The "bonnet" laced to the leach of the mainsail is/was called a "ringtail" in English. Pride 1 had one, Pride 2 and Amistad do not, although in one of the pictures of P2 posted above it looks like she's got a ringtail boom rigged on the main.
The running mainstays are a peculiar feature of Baltimore Clippers, and probably other vessels with steeply raked rigs as well. They are hateful things, very heavy lifting to tack them, and I think more critical than running backstays. To my mind they should be spectra, or some other super-rope, to cut down weight. They'd also be more authentic to the pre-steel-rigging history of the Baltimore Clipper.
I've never sailed on Pride 2. A few years ago when I was running the Amistad we were tied up next to her in New York City, and I got to hear the story of the Bay of Biscay dismasting from Jan Miles, who was driving Pride 2 when it happened. I counted myself lucky to have got the Amistad from Falmouth to Lisbon without breaking any bones or spars. But we weren't racing...
The model of "Recouverence" is very interesting. I wonder if they really carried stunsail booms on the course yard, but what do I know?
I am curious about the arrangement of the brailing gear on the foresail. The standing gaff, loose-footed foresail is another characteristic of the Baltimore Clipper. In your pictures of P2 there's one of the sail all brailed up (an admirably neat harbor furl), and the last picture shows the sail set, and you can see the brailing lines running aft from the mast to the leech of the sail.
I personally liked this rig best of all the peculiar arrangements on a Baltimore Clipper. Quick to set. It really only took one person to cast off the brailes, and one to hook up the sheet tackle. The trick to the brailes was to realize that the only important one was the one that led to the throat. Get that braile hauled up tight and the rest was just housekeeping.
While on Amistad I introduced to things that might be innovations. The first was put a pair of short (3') pennants on the clew, so that the sheet tackles hooked to this instead of directly into the clew iron. It did away with the gymnastics involved in hooking on the double-purchase sheet block up over your head as the clew thrashed around. The other was the practice of leading a single-purchase sheet out through the quarter chocks, then forward outside the main rig. This allowed the sail to work much better on a broad reach in light air. It was important that at the turn of the watch (particularly at night) that the mate coming on be told how (where) the foresail was sheeted. Otherwise it could lead to some head-scratching and excitement when tacking.
I would like to see a full picture of the "Recouverence" model, to see how big that club main gaff topsail really is. That must have been a bear to manage.
I'm also curious about your boat. She looks very elegant. What age, design, size, etc? Does she have a copper-sheathed bottom? What are those square ports just above her waterline? And the port above her rudder shaft?

[redbopeep]

I'm enjoying the thread drift, and since it's my thread, I guess that's ok, eh? :)

Since you seem to know quite a bit about various standing and running rigging, seo, can you tell me what you know about Jack Stays? I asked folks about Jack Stays in an earlier thread but they thought I meant jumper stays. I did NOT. We had (have not reinstalled therefore term is past tense) jackstays on the foremast (running parrallel to mast up to just under the spreaders on little bolsters to keep them away from the mast hoops) and I didn't know what they'd be used for therefore we left them off for the timebeing. I have found reference to them in the Sailmaker's Apprentice when talking about means of hoisting Fisherman staysail on a schooner (when shorthanded) but since we have yet to use our Fisherman (much less our Golly...) we're not exactly sure of the need for them and how they assist in the hoisting of the Fish.

[seo]

In my mind a jackstay is the steel rod that runs just under a square yard that the square sail is actually lashed to. And I think it's also used to describe a rod running along the mast that a square yard can slide up and down on, and pivot from side to side on. I think that was used on "modern" square rig, with steel spars.
So it seems that "jackstay" generically means a rod or wire rope that runs beside a spar. These days the term seems to have been supplanted by "sail track," because a sail track on a mast, boom, or yard does the same thing.
I don't see how you could have one of those on the foremast of a schooner. Maybe on the forward side of the mainmast, with clearance for the sail hoops...but you said your main was on a track, so no need for much clearance. I guess the use of it would be for the head of a fisherman, queen staysail, or gollywobbler to slide along on its way up to the main masthead, which might reduce the excitement of dousing that sail, by controlling at least one corner of it? Dunno.
I've only sailed in one schooner that carried a fisherman. It was my first job as captain, and the Chief Mate knew the rig very well, so I let him do his job, and I stuck to the navigating side of life. This was 25 years ago, but I was not impressed with the fisherman. Seemed to create a lot of force on the rig and heeling, without much increase in speed. But we might have been trying to use it with the wind too far forward.
One thing that I think is important to keep in mind is that some of the most extreme developments in schooner rig can in the days of the big racing schooner yachts and the racing fishermen. These vessels had big budgets and lots of very experienced crew. (Years ago I read Sterling Hayden's autobiography "Wanderer," which includes a chapter describing life on board the fishing schooner "Gertrude Thebaud" when she raced against the "Bluenose." This was pretty hard core racing. Hayden was stationed in the top, where he handled the topsails and fisherman as they tacked. It's the part of that book I remember best, and recommend it.)
I've been very much spoiled by having sailed on schooners with experienced mates and big crews. Since most of these boats were coast guard inspected, with rigs limited by their stability letter, they didn't have the huge kites of the Golden Age. A private yacht isn't limited that way, but unless you're incredibly wealthy the cost of keeping a big crew that's qualified to handle a big rig is going to be a crusher.
For relatively short-handed sailing, simple is good. As much as I dislike the look of a marconi-mainsail schooner, they make a lot of sense. I sort of draw the line at a marconi main staysail schooner, but that's how the Westward 2 was rigged, and she was designed by Eldredge-McGinnis, a very good designer, for Drayton Cochrane, a wealthy man who'd sailed all his life (including several years as Captain of a U.S. Navy destroyer escort). The mission of the vessel was to sail around the world with minimum crew. If the considered judgement of the guy whose father had owned and raced the Herreshoff schooner Westward 1 was that marconi main staysail fore with square course was the best rig for ocean sailing, I'm not going to pretend that I know a tenth of what he did.
Obviously your boat is smaller than Westward 2. She's 94 on deck, 125 LOA, 22' beam, 138 gross tons, and maybe 11 feet draft. To me that means that a more complicated rig might be more easily managed, because the sails are lighter and smaller.
As a final aside, 30 years ago I sailed a delivery (Ft. Lauderdale-USVI) on a big sloop yacht, 92' on deck, 105' mainsail hoist. She had the first "MPS" sail I'd ever been around. It was HUGE, maybe 120' on the luff, 70 or so on the foot. It generated a lot of force, and was surprising easy to manage, with a snuffer system. A lot simpler than fooling with a spinnaker, with it's wraps and twists, poles and yadayada.

[Lucky Luke]

Hey-ho, and up she rises!

That's an interesting and informative rig discussion!
Thanks (again), Seo, for the "ringtail". Pride-2 (yellow flag, isn't she?) obviously had one!

About the "Recouvrance", I'm starting to wonder if those stunsail booms were not an interpretation by the model maker who may have "slightly enlarged" the...handrail...or if he worked from drawings giving details from the original ship (named "Iris"), which quite probably had stunsails, while they were not "deemed necessary" on the replica..??!?! On this detail picture, there is obviously nothing for a stunsail boom...! It also shows the foresail well brailed, just like on the Baltimore privateers, from which she may inherit...??? At that time, French and Americans were close friends - united against the "perfidious albion" :D)

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo249/lucky-luke-vn/6194554-detail.jpg


I had to brain-storm myself a bit to understand your explanation about the alternate sheeting arrangements, but there again appreciate the exactitude of your marine terminology :)

However, we seem to differ about the name of spar attached to the topsail on the Recouvrance", which I think should be a yard, a club being the one fitted along the foot, isn't it...??!? On the real ship, this "yard/ club" is much smaller than on the model, as you can see here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/La_Recouvrance.JPG


about my -ex :( - boat: she was called "Morwenna", a name she was given at her launching and always carried till now. She was designed by Linton Hope, 60' OD, and built by Stow and sons, launched in 1914 but then "hidden" till after the war. I bought her after a long court-case between her former owners, and after she had been left almost derelict for ten years in a little river nearby the Seine, and took her down to the south of France on canals (long, cold winter, with more draft than the canals allow...took three months!). After some sailing that I would not have done had I really known her condition, I did extensive repairs, including changing all the iron floors that had completely corroded inside the ^%&@>"!% cement in her bilges. Could have dropped the whole keel, ballast and all at the bottom of the sea!
Wood was beautiful: teak on oak and locust, kauri decks (yes!), bronze and copper fastened, and yes: copper sheathed.
She has then sailed a lot and now been re-beamed and re-decked in Concarneau, where I believe she still is.

The "ports" you can see are just blocks that have been put on temporarily to hold shores in place during transport on the flat-bed truck.

[Lucky Luke]

"Jack-stays"!
There seem to be a LOT of "Jack-something" on boats...just like are called "Arthur" all the nameless (or forgotten name!) various little purchases on today's racers!

Whether this one is another "Jack" or "Peter-something", I had a very useful small wire running along and beside the main mast on "Morwenna", from deck to top, and along which did slide two piston hanks from the topsail, one just below the halyard, another arriving a bit above the main's peak hallyard when hoisted. Could have done with a third one in between. Hoisting and taking down this topsail was child-play....on the tack where this ""Jackie" was downwind. On the other tack it still did help much.
On the schooner we are building here, and although there is no such thing on Ted Brewer's design, I shall have one too, plus a brail that will allow to "tack" the topsail, I mean to have it either side of the peak hallyard and not chafing on them, without having to go aloft. Needs two "lower sheets" (name, please SOE), the one not in use one going right over the peak hallyard...a little nuisance when hoisting the main! This brail-line also allows to quickly brail the topsail in a squall.

I could not disagree more with you, Soe, about the propulsive power of a firsherman staysail. That thing pulls, really, easily gives an extra knot, but also makes the boat heel and give the feeling it is more efficient than it really is. Puts a lot of strain on he mainmast, too! Boats that otherwise do without running backstays need a pair just for that sail. I found the angle at which it can be used is definitely very limited! Or the main and topsail takes all its wind, or it is too close to the wind and makes the boat heel for nothing, but on a broad reach, that thing pulls! Got to be generous paying out the top-sheet, otherwise that is were it becomes a nuisance and looses all it's power.
I have never used a "golly-wobbler" but hope we shall have one on the schooner we are building. Since I may have to do a lot of the sail-making, It will depend on me :rolleyes:!

Anyway this "Jack-stay" (assuming this is it's name) is something I shall definitely rig for the fisherman/ golly (no flying "queen" staysail: a too small one that has to be taken down for tacking: no thanks!...unless there is no stay from the top of the fore to the partners of the main..not a good rig!). It will be similar to what "Redbopeep" describes for Mahdee, and each side of the foremast, but simply come from an eye underneath the spreaders, not on bolsters. Just like it was far away enough on Morwenna to allow the piston hanks to run free from the hoops, it will just clear them each side of the foremast.

Multipurpose Spinnaker (MPS): yes! definitely, un-furled/ furled with a sock (Tabarly's creations!), easy peasy! NO pole! Also a big roller furling reacher when closer to the wind...but got to finish building the boat first!!! ;)

Many sails to dream of!!!

[seo]

Maybe this thread should be re-titled "You don't know Jack!" which is an American insult of obscure meaning.
Luke, You're right, that is a ringtail in the picture of the P2.
I wonder if that "jackstay" as you describe it could just as well run from the masthead down to the chainplate of the forwardmost shroud, instead of down parallel to the mast. It might help keep things clear as the sail comes down...
You're right that "club" isn't the correct term for the luff spar on a gaff topsail as seen in the model of "Recouverance" Upon dredging through my memory, I come up with the term "jackyard" to describe the spar that travels up and down with a jackyard topsail. I think that's right.
Another use of the term "Jack" is the arrangement on a jib of a line, grommets, and hanks that allow the lower part of the sails luff to be pulled aft as the sail comes down. The line is called a "jackline." The same thing is used on mainsails to allow a reef to be tied in with the luff reef grommet pulled down right tight to the gooseneck.

[redbopeep]

I wonder if that "jackstay" as you describe it could just as well run from the masthead down to the chainplate of the forwardmost shroud, instead of down parallel to the mast. It might help keep things clear as the sail comes down...

That was going to be my next question--On our boat the jackstays ran parallel to the foremast over a bolster that was located just under the foremast shrouds. There are three tangs on a little cloverleaf thing there, the center tang being for the jackstays and the other two tangs being for the lower shrouds. Since we increased the size of our hoops a bit, we have to make bigger bolsters to keep the jackstays away from the hoops. When considering this, we wonder why not just use the aft lower shroud as our "jackstay" for each side of the foremast? Would it not work the same way anyhow? That would be very good. The same concept using the forward lower shroud for the mainmast would seem right. Am I missing something? Since Luke has done this sort of thing before, I hope he can envision it and tell us why a parallel jackstay might be needed instead of the shroud.

[seo]

If you shrouds are set up with ratlines, no ring or shackle would run on it. Also, it if goes over a spreader it might not terminate it at the right place. Also, the sail might cripple the wire by jerking on it and bending it?
Or maybe it would work fine. Dunno...

[Lucky Luke]

First: let's agree to adopt this "jackstay" terminology as Seo did describe it. Seems very right to me, anyway!

Thanks also, Seo, for the "jackyard": yes: that is how I had heard it called....it just did not hit my failing two neurones!

About using shrouds as jackstays, then: for a top sail or for the fisherman?

For whichever one, Seo cites obvious impediment with the ratlines. If you are talking about the lower shrouds, this "could", eventually, be used for fisherman only, obviously not for topsail, and provided there are no ratlines anyway. If you are talking of main topmast shrouds that would not go through ends of spreaders, something that was common for masts carrying square sails but not at all for any other, that shroud "could" also be used for a topsail.
I have limited experience with a fisherman (none with a "golly"), although enough to have loved it, and the schooner I sailed (not mine) had nothing to help hoisting it up, which I found regrettable. That large sail was sent completely flying and shaking in the wind as soon as it arrived higher than the foresail, till it was properly sheeted. Having jackstays for that purpose is something we would have very much appreciated.
I have much more experience with topsails, including the huge, club and jackyard fitted one that was carried on the big, powerful ketch "Arminel". A brute of a boat! That main would be very difficult on a schooner, with the boom ending a few meters past the counter....although the one we are presently building will not be far from that! This one too had a jackstay, to which the yard was shackled, and I just can't imagine having done without one. Nuisance heavy spars anyway, both club and yard - mainly the yard that gets tangled with the peak hallyards and running backstays, but really great once up! Have to go aloft when tacking, though...and it's high!
Could a stay going from deck at side to topmast have been used then? I would say no, as this would have pulled the lower part of the sail (and the yard) far away from the mast, making it sort of a heeled sail, eventually acceptable on one tack, definitely not on the other and forbidding to take the sail on the other side of the peak hallyard when tacking.
On a fisherman, it could certainly help, if there are no ratlines on the lower shroud as already said, in keeping the tack of the sail close to the mast and not flying away from it. If the fisherman is upwind of the fore, which is wrong, and if there are some hanks all along the luff of the sail, it would take it away from chafing too much on the foresail but still bearing and chafing on the gaff. If it is downwind of the fore, which is right, then I am afraid it would loose all efficiency unless only the tack is hanked to this shroud.
Then: why not have a couple of jackstays as she originally had, just with slightly bigger bolsters???
....and why did you increase the size of the hoops? The "classic" is 25% larger than the mast diameter. Always worked fine with me. Were they smaller? Where they of that size but jamming? Are they with leather sheathing? What???

[redbopeep]

We are talking about setting fisherman and golly, not topsail.

Our hoops are 12" ID, our mast is 9" OD. I ...ummm...thought...that our mast was 10" OD when making up the masthoops. They really are not too big for the mast but the bolsters would have to be quite a bit bigger than the old ones were. The OD of the mast hoops is over 14". Well, anyway, the bolsters would have to be quite a bit larger than they were, but certainly doable. The reason we speak of using the aft shroud on the foremast for this is that the jackstay DID go from deck to exactly the location that the lower shrouds attach to the mast directly under the spreaders. Our shrouds do NOT have ratlines and we do not plan on putting ratlines on the fore-shrouds. We may put them on the main lower shrouds on one side, but that remains undecided. Our boat did NOT have a jackstay along the mainmast, only along the foremast.

I will endeavor to run through my pictures and find a couple of what she did have in the past.

Here are the pics (edited to add them)

drawing of how it all started out with softeyes before the spreaders added. Then, a pic of how it was when we bought the boat--you can see the bolsters under the tangs under the spreaders. The lower shrouds attach to the front and back of the three part tang, the jackstay in the middle. Then, a pic of sailing wing-on-wing on a run where you can see the saddle goes round such that the block is actually about where the bolster would be. You can also see the oversized, leathered hoops in the pic of how it is now.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4112/5092502540_360d4a6763_b.jpg


http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4148/5092502546_24c64726c8_o.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4124/5092502544_19698b8ef6_b.jpg

[seo]

The photos aren't quite big enough to see the details you refer to. Also, what are the jackstay (s) going to be used for? I guessed it was for setting the fisherman. Is that right? And exactly how is it (or would it) be used?
In an earlier post you asked about what the line attached at the fisherman's tack should be called. Tack pennant? Tack downhaul?

[redbopeep]

Yes, I've been asking questions about using the jackstays to hoist/set the fisherman tack on the formast. The drawing should be big enough for you to see it (labels and all). The second pic was taken in 2006 when we were looking at the boat before we bought it. The two black bumps on each side of the mast and right below the spreaders are the bolsters we're talking about. They were large to start with and would have to be larger now. The third pic simply shows you what is there now (no bolster) and how the saddle (on a run) goes all the way around to the side of the mast and the blocks end up where those bolsters would be. The tangs that the lower shrouds are attached to right under the spreaders on the last picture have a center tang for the jackstay.