Eye splicing double braid

[capt jake]

Is it really as hard and complex as it looks?? I have looked at New Englands site and Samson's as well. Both show basically the same proceedure.

Which kit to buy? New England, Samsom or Brian Toss? Or do I need a kit at all? Can I just make my own fid out of a hollow knitting needle?

I have about 7 eye splices that need to be done. I would love to learn how to do this, but don't want to piss any more money away if it is not needed.

Thanks!! smile.gif smile.gif

[WFK]

Hey capt.

When I was a kid, my folks had a boat business and my dad would pay me .50 for every dock line I'd splice after school. I think he had a pretty high mark-up ;) . It's been a while since I've done it, but I wouldn't think it would be that much do go out and get the nessesary stuff. I'd go with what Mr. Toss says, and would practice on a scrap or two before going with the real thing!
Now go for it!
Bill

[capt jake]

Thanks WFK.
The Samson and New England kits are about $24-$29 while the Toss kit is $89 :eek: .
Trying to educate myself before a purchase.

[Dave Fleming]

Capt Jake, support your local rigger!
Brion is a fine fellow and his stuff is first rate. After all I made some stuff for him lo these many years ago. ;)

[capt jake]

Dave, though he is 'local' it is a 3 hour drive. I only have a few splices to make. Are you saying that his splicing kit is superior? (or that you designed/made it?)

I appreciate the help!

[Dave Fleming]

Dave, though he is 'local' it is a 3 hour drive. I only have a few splices to make. Are you saying that his splicing kit is superior? (or that you designed/made it?)

All I am saying is that if Brion made a how to kit he must have felt there was a need for it.
He is not into 'hucksterism'. Ya folla?

I made some rigging furniture for him in the 1970's and some poor photos of it are in my Imagestation albums. ;)

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by capt jake:
Is it really as hard and complex as it looks?? I have looked at New Englands site and Samson's as well. Both show basically the same proceedure.

Which kit to buy? New England, Samsom or Brian Toss? Or do I need a kit at all? Can I just make my own fid out of a hollow knitting needle?

I have about 7 eye splices that need to be done. I would love to learn how to do this, but don't want to piss any more money away if it is not needed.First, Get Brion's Book, The Complete Rigger's Apprentice. When you get an opportunity, sit through Brion's Double-Braid Eyesplice demo.

Second, it depends on what kind of 'double-braid' you're talking about -- the different constructions have different splicing techniques.
Stayset-X, for example, (which, strictly speaking, isn't a double-braid at all), is easy to splice.

That being said, I've got Brion's 'splicing wand' and it makes some stuff much easier. OTOH, the hollow cone type of fid like what New England Ropes and Samson sell aren't without their uses. Those sometimes work better than Brion Toss' splicing wand.

I find a particular fid that West Marine carries to be usefull too -- it's a two piece black plast ic job. You basically shove it throught the line and remove the tip piece and you've got a nice plastic grommet in the line that makes it easy to get the strand through.

Masking tape is your friend.

And tension. When splicing double-braid, keeping uniform tension between the core and the cover is critical. With certain constructions, the load needs to be distributed betwixt core and cover.

Good Luck!

[ 01-02-2003, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

[Frank Pellegrino]

It's not that difficult to splice double braid. Getting through the directions is actually more difficult than doing the splice. Stay with it and you will at some point have an "epiphany" where it all makes sense. The hollow fids work fine, but whatever you get comfortable with is what you'll use forever. There was a tool called a "unifid" that I found difficult to use. The only advice I can give is that it is almost impossible to braid old (dry)or used line.

[capt jake]

I find a particular fid that West Marine carries to be usefull too -- it's a two piece black plast ic job The Oly store didn't have that piece. And the line I am looking at will probably be New England's Sta-set. Though the Samsom is less expensive (locally) the supplier doesn't have any where near the selection of West (New england).

so.... the Toss set-up???

Oh, a late edit

There was a tool called a "unifid" that I found difficult to use That would be New England's set up. So this one is a no go??

I am so tied up!!! :D :D ;D

[ 12-30-2002, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: capt jake ]

[Frank Pellegrino]

I bought a kit from Sampson at one of the boat shows. Comes with hollow fids for 4 different size lines and a pusher wand. They even supplied a few pieces of double braid to practice on. It works pretty well and didn't cost too much. The directions were fairly understandable.

[capt jake]

Thanks Frank! I have narrowed it down to the Samson kit or Brion Toss's. One is $24, while the other is $89.
??? Too many knots to unravle!! :D :D

[Dave Fleming]

Oh What the Hell, it's only money. :D

[capt jake]

Alas, Mr flemming ye' be right!! I think the Toss set-up may be the way to go.

Thanks for all of the insight.
And thanks for none of the other 'stuff' going on!! :D smile.gif smile.gif

[Dave Fleming]

Yo Capt Jake, watch out for them 'double m's in Fleming' ya folla?

[wolfietuk]

I like Toss's stuff, but I think the splice kit is a bit pricey. Kind of like a weekend woodworker buying a 12000$ panel saw which is a wonderful machine if you want to cut up a skid of plywood a day. I have Brions book and it is wonderful. I have samsons kit and it works fine. If I spliced rope for a living then I would probably buy Brions kit. And ditto on the tape, though I Prefer electrical to masking.

Rick

[T. Crisp]

I have Samson's kit, but use NE's directions. The first splice I tried came out nearly perfect and it just got better after that. If you had a hundred splices to do, the Toss wand would be nice, but plain old fids with a pusher will definitely do the job.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by capt jake:
...the line I am looking at will probably be New England's Sta-set.I'd recommend looking at New England Rope (http://www.neropes.com/)'s Stayset-X. It stretches less -- it stretches signifcantly less than conventional double braid and almost approaches the peformance of some of the exotics (Spectra, et al) and it's only a little more expensive than conventional double braid. It's also about 17% stronger and stretches about 37% less than a conventional double braid.

And it's easier to splice, IMHO, than is conventional double braid because of the parallel core construction.

[capt jake]

Thanks Nicholas! I think I will go with the Samson splicing kit, but I will have to look into the Sta-Set X. Good tip, thanks!!

[Nicholas Carey]

One thing I forgot to add: In addition to the BT splicing wand, I've got his Point Hudson Fid

http://satsop.olympus.net/biz/briontoss/catalog/store_img/PointHudsonPhidBoth_sm.jpg

which ROCKS. It's sturdier and more comfortable than the stock Swedish (hollow) fid

http://www.seamarknunn.co.uk/catalog/images/item1177.jpg

About the only thing I'd tweak on the Point Hudson Fid is to grind a flat on its pommel so that it doesn't roll off the dock/deck/whatever and into the drink.

BTW, the 'hollow, two-part plastic fid' I referred to earlier is the Fid-O: www.fid-o.com/ (http://www.fid-o.com/) -- under $10, its cheap.

[capt jake]

Thanks for the link.

The limited information about 'Fid-O' doesn't speak to double braid at all. Are you saying that it can be used for double, or just a handy fid to have?

Looks like you do a LOT of splicing?

[Dave Hadfield]

I wish I knew how. I usually just buy 3-strand and splice that -- much easier, to my mind.

One other thing about 3 strand is that you can splice it at any time in its life. Once double-braid has been used significantly, you can't.

I used to think that 3-strand would kink and knot itself more than double-braid. It doesn't seem to though. It's just a function of overall twist -- the same in each type of rope.

[Bayboat]

The Fid-O, Point Hudson and "Swedish" fids are only for splicing three- or four-strand. The others mentioned are for cored braid. Unless you plan to do only a few splices in braid from now on, Brion Toss's "wand" at about $50 is worth it.
You don't really need to buy the whole kit, just the wand. His video is very clear and illustrates the use of the wand.

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Bayboat:
The Fid-O, Point Hudson and "Swedish" fids are only for splicing three- or four-strand.If you do any of Brion's more exotic splices (such as the Double Moebius), you'll find the Fid-O most useful. It's one of those oddball tools that comes in real handy every now and again.

As for 'a lot of splicing', I wouldn't say that -- I just makes the splices I needs. But people tell me I do good handwork, although I'm a little dubious on that.

[ 01-02-2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Nicholas Carey ]

[capt jake]

OK, I bought the Samson fid system and tried to do the eye splice on 1/4" line. What a frustrating thing!!! Needless to say, NOT!!

It is probably due to the size. The pushing theory of the system sounds great, but... ! I am planning on using 1/4" or maybe 5/16" (if i can find it) on this project.

I also tried the Regatta Braid from New England (5/16"), though when you mix one set of instruction with another fid. :mad: Well, it didn't work for me.

So... Up the size of line to 5/16 (and try again?)? And or go with the Toss wand (the Toss wand I am sure will not be returnable if I am not satisfied).

So.. Other thoughts or ???

[Ron Williamson]

For a start,practice on bigger line,like 5/8,and BE PATIENT.
Have fun
R

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by capt jake:
I also tried the Regatta Braid from New England (5/16"), though when you mix one set of instruction with another fid. :mad: Well, it didn't work for me.Splicing single braid construction (like Regatta is) is a different technique than double braid. It's actuall much simpler and the Toss splicing wand helps immensely with it.

Choose one line and one construction and stick with until you get it. Plan on wasting some amount of rope in the learning process. And as others have pointed out...larger lines are actually easier to learn on. The other rule is this:

</font> Don't try and learn to splice with old, used line -- it dooms you to frustration.</font>The other thing is to get Brion's book and/or his video -- seeing it done is worth a thousand words.
Cheers,

N.

[rodcross]

Capn

Don't bother with any other system than the 'splicing wand' and get the video. I promise you that it will be cheap in the bargain. You'll do a splice in regatta braid in less than 5 minutes and splices in tech 12 almost as quickly. Double braid takes longer as do the HM core/dacron cover splices (Those splices are wierd). Find a good place to anchor the rope for finishing the bury, though. I hanked out a cast-iron radiator and a door-jam before I swore I'd do all splicing on the boat using a winch as an anchor.

You may only have a few splices to do, right now, but once you have the knack, you won't need to put off replacing the frayed sheets because of the grief of re-splicing everything, or the old halyard, spare jib sheets...

I have two different sized wands, now. Every piece of rope on that boat is new and the only splices that gave me any grief were the small diameter T900 splices for the topping lifts and outhauls.

[capt jake]

Well, thanks to all who have advised me on this thread! It has been much help! smile.gif

After several failed attempts last night with the Samson fid (the one with the pusher). I returned it and gave the NE unifid a try. Though Samsons idea is nice, the pusher won't fit into the back of the smaller fids with the line. The larger sizes probably would have been OK.

I have been using new line, 10' sections that I am buying to practice on.

I just made one!!! :D :D 3/8" NE Sta-Set. Went pretty well!! You are right about a lot of force! Now if I can do the same in 5/16", I'll have it made!! smile.gif

Though the unifid has it's shortcomings, the directions were easier to follow. As I only have a few splices to do on this project, it will be fine. If I was going to splice more, well then the Toss wand would be the purchase to make. BTW, the NE tech support even suggested it!! smile.gif

Thanks to everybody!!! smile.gif smile.gif

[capt jake]

Not a master yet, but I got number 2 done in 5/16", Yehaaa!! :D :D

Thanks! smile.gif

[Bill Dodson]

:D Good for you!! :D

I've been following this thread with interest, but I'll stick with 3-strand for now tongue.gif

[capt jake]

Bill, 3 strand is a snap!. I thought double was going to be a pain, but as you see, it is not! Reach out and 'braid some one'! :D :D

thanks again!!!! smile.gif smile.gif