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JJNiles
09-18-2010, 12:33 AM
I don't care what political party your in, what religion, or race. Humans have failed, We as a race hve not acheaved any thing worth recording sence the last man walked the surface of the moon. What happend to the golden age that the year 2000 would bring? We have the Technology to go where are emagination takes us, but we don't. We squabel amungst are selves about things that don't realy matter, because history is just going to repet its self. Why haven't we built colonies on the moon? Or even build citys where there is no land? Or even step on mars? In 40 years we have done nothing, but sit and dream. So I say rise up band together and make shure that the next 40 years are not wasted. Let's make are childrens dreams realitys. That's why I say man-kined has epicly failed...

peter radclyffe
09-18-2010, 12:47 AM
bet you were just waiting for this to be invented so you can complain about it

ramillett
09-18-2010, 01:27 AM
I'm hoping my kids are smart enough to take the time to enjoy what we have now . Not just working there whole life for unneeded junk . Why in hell do we want to go to Mars ? No wood , no water , no sailing . Oh and no air :)

JJNiles
09-18-2010, 01:36 AM
No, once I loved the internet, and all of what man has done. But I'm fead up with it, all the empty promises. And for sailing on mars its time will come. But what do are children have to enjoy? We have almost squanderd what are fathers hade built for us.

bobbys
09-18-2010, 02:09 AM
Boy i bet your the life of the party..............

ramillett
09-18-2010, 02:24 AM
What did they promise ???

PeterSibley
09-18-2010, 02:35 AM
Boy i bet your the life of the party..............

:D:D:D

Marvin ,the paranoid Android

johnw
09-18-2010, 03:06 AM
If it weren't for my rocket pants and my time machine, I'd be blue, too.

Go build a boat and go sailing in it. You'll feel better.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
09-18-2010, 03:28 AM
Might one propose that the Spellchecker was a greater advance than the man on the moon?

purri
09-18-2010, 05:09 AM
^ Bugger, you beat me to it!

TerryLL
09-18-2010, 08:16 AM
JJ,
Get a dang grip.

PhaseLockedLoop
09-18-2010, 09:42 AM
Aw, ease up on him. He may be dreary, but he ain't all wrong. Except about colonizing the moon and Mars, of course. A lot of folks eager to colonize Mars haven't even been out in the woods much.

JJNiles
09-18-2010, 09:54 AM
I know the technology needed for space colonies and we already have it. The only limiter to such plans is giting funding from investers. The plans have been reworked over and over till they are all basicly the same. Ide think that even here on a boat forum some of you have thought of a terraformed Tittan, a water world, a sailors dreem. And yes terraforming is posabole we have been able to produse geneticly manufacutred bacteria for 10 years now.

SamSam
09-18-2010, 11:18 AM
I think what might be holding us back from our potential is wasted and misdirected energies, the biggest culprits being religion and greed and an innate, unreasoned fear of the unknown that drives them. Put war in there wherever it fits.

paladin
09-18-2010, 05:08 PM
Oh, Be quiet Dammitt......Being from Okiehoma you should be able to spell and compose sentences better than what you do. You are an embarrassment to yourself and the state...what did you do...skip 2 or 3 grades in school then try out for a GED diploma.

WX
09-18-2010, 05:16 PM
I know the technology needed for space colonies and we already have it. The only limiter to such plans is giting funding from investers. The plans have been reworked over and over till they are all basicly the same. Ide think that even here on a boat forum some of you have thought of a terraformed Tittan, a water world, a sailors dreem. And yes terraforming is posabole we have been able to produse geneticly manufacutred bacteria for 10 years now.
JJNiles, mate I don't want to be rude but you sure know how to brutalise a language.
I agree that we need to get off this planet and spread out a bit but our options are limited and none of them are easy. Even Mars makes Antarctica seem tropical.

Cuyahoga Chuck
09-18-2010, 06:52 PM
I know evolution is not a big hit in Oklahoma but for anyone who desires space travel it rules. Man is configured for this planet and when we are away from this planet for long man, kind of, falls apart. Reaching out on space voyages beyond the moon that would require long stretches with low or no gravity is a barrier in itself. Our genes are just not set up for it. They need gravity. Not too much and not too little. And no telling what solar radiation will do to our poor little genes. You can't go on a space mission wrapped in lead.
And the way you folks in Right-wing America are hyperventilating about government spending, today, I think allocating huge sums of government money to send some of our citizens out on suicidal space missions would really give the teaparty types a screaming fit.
Take care of your genes, neighbor, and they will take care of you.

Harry Miller
09-18-2010, 07:24 PM
Now Stephen Hawking has just said we need to colonize another planet. I think he's posting here under an alias.

Glen Longino
09-18-2010, 07:53 PM
"Humans have failed"...

JJNiles meet Sam F!
Of course we failed, that's what our religion is based upon:
The glory of God and the Failure of Man.
Where you been, boy?
Ain't you heard about the Fall From Grace way back when two people pissed God off so bad he booted our sorry Human arses out of Paradise?
We can't live here on Earth with any semblance of propriety, yet you want to invade the nethersphere?
If you really care, be a humanitarian and edit your spelling for the goodwill and wellbeing of all your fellow men around here.

JJNiles
09-18-2010, 08:31 PM
To the informed evolutionist above;
I am well aware the effects of zero gravity on the human body, we would become much like jellyfish. Unfortunitly man has not the ability to make gravatons yet, we will have to use a rotating ship, much like the new game Halo. Also lead is a a terrable idea, its heavy and not as good as an electromagnetic feald. Oh I am also an evolutionist, and I am not Halking

Y Bar Ranch
09-18-2010, 08:41 PM
And the way you folks in Right-wing America are hyperventilating about government spending, today, I think allocating huge sums of government money to send some of our citizens out on suicidal space missions would really give the teaparty types a screaming fit.
Take care of your genes, neighbor, and they will take care of you.
It won't be governments. It will be religion. Colonizing space is going to take exactly the sort of non-rational total commitment to a cause that religion provides in spades. For example, the Mormons could afford to go to Mars, colonize it, and claim it all in the name of Brigham Young, starting tomorrow. They just need someone to have A Vision.

TerryLL
09-18-2010, 08:47 PM
If you really care, be a humanitarian and edit your spelling for the goodwill and wellbeing of all your fellow men around here.

Glen, my friend, we are being duped. The misspellings are intentional. I'm not quite sure who this character is, but he is no stranger here.

JJNiles
09-18-2010, 09:47 PM
No I'm not a TROLL, my house internet is down, so I have been using my android to post. Once its back up my spelling problems will go away. So I'm sorry about them. I just can't spell at all.

Glen Longino
09-18-2010, 09:50 PM
Glen, my friend, we are being duped. The misspellings are intentional. I'm not quite sure who this character is, but he is no stranger here.

Thanks, Terry!
I always suspect that when I see contrived ignorance.
It sticks out like a sore thumb!
I think it must be a self-image problem with Trolls.
They assume that contrived ignorance will somehow mask their own insecurities.
Funny how it never works out, ain't it?:D

Glen Longino
09-18-2010, 10:06 PM
No I'm not a TROLL, my house internet is down, so I have been using my android to post. Once its back up my spelling problems will go away. So I'm sorry about them. I just can't spell at all.

If you're not a Troll, you'll do until a real Troll shows up!;)

JJNiles
09-18-2010, 10:37 PM
Well I can be trollist at times but that's not what I'm trying to do. I'de rather see companies like Google, Ford, GE, est... going into space than governments or religions. Speeking of religion, shure space would be cults dream, but come on there is no religion on earth with that kined of money.

JJNiles
09-18-2010, 10:40 PM
And what dose my hobby of CGI have to do with anything?

Glen Longino
09-18-2010, 10:44 PM
"CGI"?

Gonzalo
09-18-2010, 10:48 PM
I know the technology needed for space colonies and we already have it. The only limiter to such plans is giting [sic] funding from investers [sic].The only limiter to such plans is that there is no economically viable reason for space colonies. Space colonies won't make money under any conceivable set of circumstances, which is why investors aren't lining up to invest.

Bruce Hooke
09-18-2010, 10:54 PM
Well I can be trollist at times but that's not what I'm trying to do. I'de rather see companies like Google, Ford, GE, est... going into space than governments or religions. Speeking of religion, shure space would be cults dream, but come on there is no religion on earth with that kined of money.

What the heck would be the business model that would justify a private company trying to set up a colony on another planet?

Gonzalo
09-18-2010, 10:55 PM
And the way you folks in Right-wing America are hyperventilating about government spending, today, I think allocating huge sums of government money to send some of our citizens out on suicidal space missions would really give the teaparty types a screaming fit.Actually, remember when Obama shut down the moon program a few months back? The tea partiers in Florida were hyperventilating about all the job cuts they saw coming. They actually had rallies to get Obama to spend more money. No rhyme nor reason.

Bruce Hooke
09-18-2010, 11:00 PM
I don't care what political party your in, what religion, or race. Humans have failed, We as a race hve not acheaved any thing worth recording sence the last man walked the surface of the moon. What happend to the golden age that the year 2000 would bring? We have the Technology to go where are emagination takes us, but we don't. We squabel amungst are selves about things that don't realy matter, because history is just going to repet its self. Why haven't we built colonies on the moon? Or even build citys where there is no land? Or even step on mars? In 40 years we have done nothing, but sit and dream. So I say rise up band together and make shure that the next 40 years are not wasted. Let's make are childrens dreams realitys. That's why I say man-kined has epicly failed...

I think we as a species have done a lot in the last 40 years, but we have moved a bit away from the grand heroics of human space exploration and towards a less grandiose sense of ourselves. We have become humble enough to realize that we cannot control everything and do whatever we want to without consequences, which to me is a sign of increasing wisdom not wasted years. Keep in mind as well that in terms of actual knowledge gained the mars rovers have gained us way more information than the original moon landings ever did. Don't get me wrong, I am glad we went to the moon and I hope we continue to explore space but I am not so certain it makes sense to pour vast resources into sending human beings to other planets.

I will admit that I do not understand the need some people seem to see to go out and colonize other planets. Why not put our energies into taking better care of the planet were at least 99.999999999% of us are going to live out our lives? Why is man so important that we should try to make sure that even if life on earth is wiped out, mankind goes on?

Glen Longino
09-18-2010, 11:04 PM
The Tea Party is actually the Hypocrite Party.
I hate to say it, but you know it's so!

JJNiles
09-18-2010, 11:29 PM
So the vast raw resorces of the astriod belt, or the planets in the solar system would have no apeal to companies? And those two little brave roves on mars are a good step. One thing I wouldent mined is seeing NASA scraped and soled to the highest bidder. Did any of you guys hear about the "Jupiter rocket" idea? It would have put man on the moon with billions of fewer dollars being spent.

JJNiles
09-18-2010, 11:46 PM
Oh and CGI stands for "Computer Generated Image" or in other words "3D animation".

Glen Longino
09-18-2010, 11:51 PM
"One thing I wouldent mined is seeing NASA scraped and soled"...

Anybody got a big chunk of marble or granite that I can carve this into for the benefit of all future generations?:)

Bobby of Tulsa
09-18-2010, 11:55 PM
Oh and CGI stands for "Computer Generated Image" or in other words "3D animation".

Are you really from Oklahoma ? Hecktorville, Slick or maybe Mazie?

Glen Longino
09-19-2010, 12:03 AM
Heheh!
He's all yours, Bobby!
Danged Okies!
Don't he make you proud?
Don't ask me for any help with that heathen...I've got my hands full with these Texas Idio-Cons!

JJNiles
09-19-2010, 12:03 AM
Yes, I have realy have been born and rased in Oklahoma. I still live in Guthrie, specking of which I missed the OSU vs. Tulsa game how did it go?

Glen Longino
09-19-2010, 12:08 AM
Texas won!

Bobby of Tulsa
09-19-2010, 12:11 AM
Heheh!
He's all yours, Bobby!
Danged Okies!
Don't he make you proud?
Don't ask me for any help with that heathen...I've got my hands full with these Texas Idio-Cons! Come on Glen, If you cant help at least send Mr. Oz over. I know I must have been born in the Twilight Zone.

Bobby of Tulsa
09-19-2010, 12:23 AM
Yes, I have realy have been born and rased in Oklahoma. I still live in Guthrie, specking of which I missed the OSU vs. Tulsa game how did it go?

I don't do sports, politics or religion. Just beer and Tequila and bs with Texicans

WX
09-19-2010, 12:36 AM
Spelling is easy to fix. Highlight the word in question and right click, you will given a selection of possible words to replace it with. If you can do CGI then this should be ded eesy fur yu.

JJNiles
09-19-2010, 12:40 AM
Not on a smart phone, which I have been using for the entire thread. Its spellcheck dosen't work on the web.

Bradley
09-19-2010, 12:57 AM
The ultimate human struggle will always be between those who can live without an enemy and those who can't...

Brad

WX
09-19-2010, 01:07 AM
Actually, remember when Obama shut down the moon program a few months back? The tea partiers in Florida were hyperventilating about all the job cuts they saw coming. They actually had rallies to get Obama to spend more money. No rhyme nor reason.
Probably more to do with loss of jobs than a space program.
A very good reason for expanding out into the Solar System is Extinction Events. By getting off the planet we increase our chances of survival as a species. I'm not just talking about Asteroid impact either. Recent work suggests an extinction event 280 million years cause through GW and the massive release of Methane.

WX
09-19-2010, 01:10 AM
I can see where you'd be a bit over your head with a smart phone....
Seems to me it is poorly named.:)

Glen Longino
09-19-2010, 01:49 AM
...."electromagnetic feald'...

That should turn some heads in any scientific, literary, or philosophical seminar!

Bruce Hooke
09-19-2010, 10:40 AM
So the vast raw resorces of the astriod belt, or the planets in the solar system would have no apeal to companies?

Given the cost of getting to those places and getting stuff back from there, I'd say yes, those vast resources are of pretty much zero interest to anyone whose primary focus is making a profit. If they were of interest, as far as I know there is nothing stopping companies from going after that stuff right now. Given the basic physics around escaping earth's orbit and the resulting very high energy costs involved in doing so, I do not foresee a time when it will make sense to try to obtain raw materials from beyond earth.

Bruce Hooke
09-19-2010, 10:42 AM
A very good reason for expanding out into the Solar System is Extinction Events. By getting off the planet we increase our chances of survival as a species. I'm not just talking about Asteroid impact either. Recent work suggests an extinction event 280 million years cause through GW and the massive release of Methane.

If 99.9999999% of us are going to die in some extinction event (and realistically only a tiny number of people could ever be sent to some other planet to live) why should we really care if the human race continues or not? Why is the human species so danging important in the cosmic sense?

TerryLL
09-19-2010, 10:56 AM
Why is the human species so danging important in the cosmic sense?

It's not. The cosmos does not care that we are here and will not care when we are gone.

Cuyahoga Chuck
09-19-2010, 11:03 AM
Yes, I have realy have been born and rased in Oklahoma. I still live in Guthrie, specking of which I missed the OSU vs. Tulsa game how did it go?

You can't fool me! You're James Inhofe's speech writer.

Uncle Duke
09-19-2010, 11:37 AM
Oh and CGI stands for "Computer Generated Image" or in other words "3D animation".
To be more precise CGI (in this context) stands for "Computer Generated Imaging", not "Image". A single image, for example, as used in a print format would be a "CGI Image", not CGI itself.
CGI is used not only in films, TV, Video Games and print media, but also in technical simulation and data visualization software.

"3D Animation" is a sub-set of CGI, not CGI itself.

Just saying...

Y Bar Ranch
09-19-2010, 11:43 AM
If 99.9999999% of us are going to die in some extinction event (and realistically only a tiny number of people could ever be sent to some other planet to live) why should we really care if the human race continues or not? Why is the human species so danging important in the cosmic sense?
Well, by extension of that argument, why should I care about global warming, non-renewable resources, or paying off my credit cards? When I'm gone, as far as I care, it is all gone.

Although if someone were to ask me if there is intelligent life in the rest of the universe, my answer is "either yes or not yet". There is nothing to keep us from ultimately populating it all, ever so slowing but steadily.

Woxbox
09-19-2010, 12:05 PM
There is nothing to keep us from ultimately populating it all, ever so slowing but steadily.

And I'm sure the cockroaches and rats will be there with us.

Bruce Hooke
09-19-2010, 03:04 PM
Well, by extension of that argument, why should I care about global warming, non-renewable resources, or paying off my credit cards? When I'm gone, as far as I care, it is all gone.

Because the first two will affect the 99.999999%+ of people who will remain on earth, including both close friends and relatives and those we will never meet. Caring about global warming and non-renewable resources is to me almost the inverse of trying to populate other planets because of the very large number of people who will be impacted by those issues, versus the tiny number of people who will be helped by colonization of other planets. Similarly, I feel a certain moral obligation to try to help the planet that I have helped to mess up rather than trying to escape that mess by colonizing other planets. To put it another way, what is important to me is not the perpetration of our species as a whole but rather what life will be like for the individual members of our species now and the future, and what life will be like for our fellow travelers on this planet, meaning all the other life forms that inhabit our earth..

If you are close to death then paying off your credit cards probably does not matter that much unless you consider it something you are honor-bound to do. Of course if you are not close to death then paying off your credit cards is simply looking out for your own financial interests.

JJNiles
09-19-2010, 04:17 PM
You guys do know that a colony needs thousands of people to work well. So its not so small a number of people, and reducing the number on earth would help with not needing so much oil, energy, or food. So the more people in space the better off the planit would be.

WX
09-19-2010, 05:21 PM
You guys do know that a colony needs thousands of people to work well. So its not so small a number of people, and reducing the number on earth would help with not needing so much oil, energy, or food. So the more people in space the better off the planit would be.
Given the cost of climbing out of the Earth's gravity well, I don't think we can make much of an impact on the population through migration. The easiest most cost effective way is to "seed" the settlement with a suitable mix and let them go for it.

oznabrag
09-19-2010, 06:19 PM
Come on Glen, If you cant help at least send Mr. Oz over. I know I must have been born in the Twilight Zone.

Mr. Bobby of Tulsa, Sir... I'm afraid I'm no use on this one.

Best of luck from Tejas!

TerryLL
09-19-2010, 06:27 PM
You guys do know that a colony needs thousands of people to work well.

Not true. Your predictions of what the human population might look like in the future might be a bit more accurate if you bothered to look at what our population was like in the past.

In the not too distant past the human population was reduced, by widespread climate change, to 600 breeding individuals. Six hundred. Every human on earth is descended from those 600.

Bruce Hooke
09-19-2010, 06:50 PM
You guys do know that a colony needs thousands of people to work well. So its not so small a number of people, and reducing the number on earth would help with not needing so much oil, energy, or food. So the more people in space the better off the planit would be.

Adding to what WX said, my guess is that the energy required to get each of those people to some other planet with the stuff necessary to establish life there might well exceed the total amount of energy each of those people would use in their lifetime if they stayed on earth, and would certainly push the costs of the project up to levels that are simply not realistic. Furthermore, even reducing the earth's population by a few million would not have an real impact on our resource consumption and the idea that we could send a few million people to some other planet any time soon is very much in the realm of science fiction.

oznabrag
09-19-2010, 06:52 PM
Adding to what WX said, my guess is that the energy required to get each of those people to some other planet with the stuff necessary to establish life there might well exceed the total amount of energy each of those people would use in their lifetime if they stayed on earth.

Very similar to the an analysis of the energy and resources required to manufacture a Prius as opposed to the amount necessary to squeeze another 250,000 miles out of an existing vehicle.

johnw
09-20-2010, 12:43 AM
You guys do know that a colony needs thousands of people to work well. So its not so small a number of people, and reducing the number on earth would help with not needing so much oil, energy, or food. So the more people in space the better off the planit would be.
So, why not populate Antarctica, which is warmer than Mars, has more water, more oxygen and can be reached by that boat I advised you to build? If that's not practical, Mars is way less practical. I actually know somebody who wrote a book on how to live on Mars (the title, just to give him a plug, is 'How to Live on Mars,' available at your nearest computer terminal from Amazon) and even from an optimist, it sounds pretty difficult.

You know, the Mars Society practices how to live on Mars in the Arctic and in the desert. The irony is that neither of these places are populated, because we don't need to live in such impractical places. Current projections are that population should stabilize at about 9 billion. It seems likely to me that developing a way 9 billion people can live on the earth is a lot more practical than trying to ship them off to Mars. (I understand there are two competing societies, who at times have had turf wars over research facilities. There's got to be screwball comedy gold in that.) If people get their heads out of...the sand...and start working on that problem, we'll get somewhere.

In the meantime, build a boat. Really, it's one of the most satisfying things you can do, and there are people here who will help you with good advice and sometimes with tools you don't yet own. The real problem is that you feel helpless, and the solution is to gain a new skill, so that you know you can do stuff.

purri
09-20-2010, 01:38 AM
^ In reality WHO projections are to stabilise at 9B then through a world wide lower birth rate (yes it's happening!) sink back to abt 4 to 6.5B within a century.

JJNiles
09-20-2010, 07:21 PM
I've actouly wonderd why no one has tried an Antartic nation. Its cold shure but it would make the pirfact international penal colony, just make a bunker in the mountans near the cost. Give the criminal basic mining/fishing tools, and let them "Carve" a life out of the rock and ice. No chance of escape, and how knows mabe they will become desent people after 4-5 years.

Bruce Hooke
09-21-2010, 12:07 AM
Very similar to the an analysis of the energy and resources required to manufacture a Prius as opposed to the amount necessary to squeeze another 250,000 miles out of an existing vehicle.

I am not sure how you measure the energy required to get "another" 250,000 miles out of a car but I do know that I tend to drive my cars until they are on their last legs...until they reach the point where as soon as one problem is solved another crops up and until the resale value is in the $300 range...and in both cases (I am currently on my third car) this has happened before I got to 250,000 miles, let alone "another 250,000 miles."

I don't have actual numbers in front of me, but I strongly suspect your comparison is also a bit off the mark in terms of the actual numbers.

Bruce Hooke
09-21-2010, 12:09 AM
I've actouly wonderd why no one has tried an Antartic nation. Its cold shure but it would make the pirfact international penal colony, just make a bunker in the mountans near the cost. Give the criminal basic mining/fishing tools, and let them "Carve" a life out of the rock and ice. No chance of escape, and how knows mabe they will become desent people after 4-5 years.

Maybe because the cost of getting them their and making sure they did not die of starvation or freeze to death would make current prison costs seem cheap! Maybe because we have grown a bit more civilized since the days when criminals were sent to various unpleasant places with the expectation and even the hope that they would die.

WX
09-21-2010, 12:15 AM
I've actouly wonderd why no one has tried an Antartic nation. Its cold shure but it would make the pirfact international penal colony, just make a bunker in the mountans near the cost. Give the criminal basic mining/fishing tools, and let them "Carve" a life out of the rock and ice. No chance of escape, and how knows mabe they will become desent people after 4-5 years.
The British did that with Australia and it didn't really work.

purri
09-21-2010, 06:51 AM
^ tres subtle mate!

McMike
09-21-2010, 08:04 AM
The British did that with Australia and it didn't really work.


^ tres subtle mate!

Ducking for cover here in Connecticut. :eek:

oznabrag
09-21-2010, 08:05 AM
I am not sure how you measure the energy required to get "another" 250,000 miles out of a car but I do know that I tend to drive my cars until they are on their last legs...until they reach the point where as soon as one problem is solved another crops up and until the resale value is in the $300 range...and in both cases (I am currently on my third car) this has happened before I got to 250,000 miles, let alone "another 250,000 miles."

I don't have actual numbers in front of me, but I strongly suspect your comparison is also a bit off the mark in terms of the actual numbers.

Every wear-part on a car is replaceable. Maintenance prevents the necessity for repair. At present, I am driving a Chevy Blazer with 265K miles on it, and it will go another 250K easily, given the proper care.

Osborne Russell
09-21-2010, 02:24 PM
There is nothing to keep us from ultimately populating it all . . .

To infinite density.

Woxbox
09-21-2010, 06:54 PM
Every wear-part on a car is replaceable.
And the entire car itself can be viewed as a wear-part that is replaceable. When your car goes to the scrap heap, a large portion of it does get recycled. You do reach a point where that's the more economically wise move.

But more to the point of the thread, quite a few people do live in Antarctica, and I've yet to read of a single one who sees it as a desirable long-term endeavor.

Bruce Hooke
09-21-2010, 09:50 PM
Every wear-part on a car is replaceable. Maintenance prevents the necessity for repair. At present, I am driving a Chevy Blazer with 265K miles on it, and it will go another 250K easily, given the proper care.

I maintain my cars well but when parts that are not designed to wear out start breaking all the time the car has reached the end of its realistic lifespan. To use an example, my first car, a 1987 Ford Escort, after 187,000 miles and 13 years was at the point where every few weeks some part that is never scheduled to be replaced as part of routine maintenance would break. Living in Texas, what you may also not understand is the impact that rust has on parts throughout a car up here in New England.

Gerarddm
09-21-2010, 10:02 PM
God's teeth, bad spelling is the doom of Man.

oznabrag
09-21-2010, 10:13 PM
I maintain my cars well but when parts that are not designed to wear out start breaking all the time the car has reached the end of its realistic lifespan. To use an example, my first car, a 1987 Ford Escort, after 187,000 miles and 13 years was at the point where every few weeks some part that is never scheduled to be replaced as part of routine maintenance would break. Living in Texas, what you may also not understand is the impact that rust has on parts throughout a car up here in New England.

So all you're saying is that modern cars are poorly designed for New England. We can send a man into space, and bring him back alive, but we can't build a surface-vehicle that will last beyond 12 months.

I find that hard to believe.

Woxbox
09-21-2010, 10:14 PM
God's teeth, bad spelling is the doom of Man.

Gerard>
There's a band called BEAK> (http://www.myspace.com/beak2009) Is that good spelling or bad spelling?

WX
09-21-2010, 11:46 PM
So all you're saying is that modern cars are poorly designed for New England. We can send a man into space, and bring him back alive, but we can't build a surface-vehicle that will last beyond 12 months.

I find that hard to believe.
Yes we can but cars that last don't help sell cars...long term.

Bruce Hooke
09-22-2010, 12:45 AM
So all you're saying is that modern cars are poorly designed for New England. We can send a man into space, and bring him back alive, but we can't build a surface-vehicle that will last beyond 12 months.

I find that hard to believe.

I'm sure we could do it but I expect that the cost of a rust-proof car would be well beyond what is viable in the marketplace, at least for people like me who are not buying high-end cars.

The car companies have gotten better at producing cars that do not rust out so quickly in northern climates but the materials that would truly end this problem are not cheap and are probably not cheap to fabricate either.

P.S., I presume "12 months" was a typo?

oznabrag
09-22-2010, 08:17 AM
I'm sure we could do it but I expect that the cost of a rust-proof car would be well beyond what is viable in the marketplace, at least for people like me who are not buying high-end cars.

The car companies have gotten better at producing cars that do not rust out so quickly in northern climates but the materials that would truly end this problem are not cheap and are probably not cheap to fabricate either.

P.S., I presume "12 months" was a typo?

No, sir, 12 months was 'hyperbole'. I'm actually pretty angry about the state of our auto industry, and I very strongly disapprove of the idea of the 'disposable car'. It seems like an enormous waste of resources, all in the name of vanity.

A man is compelled to live in the age into which he's born, though, so I suppose I'll get over it.

Woxbox
09-22-2010, 10:22 PM
I very strongly disapprove of the idea of the 'disposable car'. It seems like an enormous waste of resources, all in the name of vanity.

I used to think this, but I've changed my mind about it. A basic non-disposable car that was designed to last a very long time and be easily maintained would cost several times the price of the stamped-together plastic and sheet metal cars we buy. Would you pay, say, $80,000 for a simple car that could be kept going for, say 50 years? I wouldn't. For starters, where would you buy the gas that far out? What other things will happen to make it obsolete?

I met a guy some years back who started a business "remanufacturing" BMWs and Volvos. The idea was to find customers with these cars in the 10-15 year-old range and rebuild all the worn parts to make them as good as new again. Sounded like a great plan, but the business eventually failed. The biggest problem was that they couldn't do the work at their estimated costs. But another thing I saw was that no matter how much you go over an older car, stuff you didn't touch because it looked good will still break. It's still an old car that needs more maintenance.

I do still see people driving 50-year-old cars around here, but I know that they're not putting 10,000-20,000 miles a year on them, either.

oznabrag
09-22-2010, 10:38 PM
I used to think this, but I've changed my mind about it. A basic non-disposable car that was designed to last a very long time and be easily maintained would cost several times the price of the stamped-together plastic and sheet metal cars we buy. Would you pay, say, $80,000 for a simple car that could be kept going for, say 50 years? I wouldn't. For starters, where would you buy the gas that far out? What other things will happen to make it obsolete?

I met a guy some years back who started a business "remanufacturing" BMWs and Volvos. The idea was to find customers with these cars in the 10-15 year-old range and rebuild all the worn parts to make them as good as new again. Sounded like a great plan, but the business eventually failed. The biggest problem was that they couldn't do the work at their estimated costs. But another thing I saw was that no matter how much you go over an older car, stuff you didn't touch because it looked good will still break. It's still an old car that needs more maintenance.

I do still see people driving 50-year-old cars around here, but I know that they're not putting 10,000-20,000 miles a year on them, either.

Fair enough, but the car I'm driving is 24 years old, and was designed and built as a consumable car.

It is going strong, due to 2 main factors: 1) It has good bones. It's an '86 Chevy Blazer, and there are a lot of those old guys still going. 2) It has had good care and maintenance.

Rebuilding a transmission has a lot less environmental impact than building one from scratch.

Replacing front-end parts and wheel bearings has a lot less environmental impact than making a front suspension from scratch.

The list is endless.

This fictional car doesn't need to cost 80K, it just needs to be easily serviceable with off-the-shelf parts. If it were done with infinite service in mind, it should be pretty simple.

Two problems with this product spring to life immediately: 1) Auto manufacturers are set up to make millions of copies of their products in perpetuity. If their cars don't wear out, they go broke. Put another way, if they make a good, durable product, they die. Their survival depends upon producing garbage. It's a fine line, though. They can't produce cars that break too quickly...2) People have been conditioned to take pride in consumption. A new car every few years bolsters their egos.

Glen Longino
09-22-2010, 11:02 PM
"People have been conditioned to take pride in consumption."

By god, John, you're a scholar and a genius with a keen eye, an humble spirit, and a kind heart!
I'm proud to be your friend and reluctant consumer!

Bruce Hooke
09-22-2010, 11:28 PM
Fair enough, but the car I'm driving is 24 years old, and was designed and built as a consumable car.

It is going strong, due to 2 main factors: 1) It has good bones. It's an '86 Chevy Blazer, and there are a lot of those old guys still going. 2) It has had good care and maintenance.

Rebuilding a transmission has a lot less environmental impact than building one from scratch.

Replacing front-end parts and wheel bearings has a lot less environmental impact than making a front suspension from scratch.

The list is endless.

This fictional car doesn't need to cost 80K, it just needs to be easily serviceable with off-the-shelf parts. If it were done with infinite service in mind, it should be pretty simple.

Two problems with this product spring to life immediately: 1) Auto manufacturers are set up to make millions of copies of their products in perpetuity. If their cars don't wear out, they go broke. Put another way, if they make a good, durable product, they die. Their survival depends upon producing garbage. It's a fine line, though. They can't produce cars that break too quickly...2) People have been conditioned to take pride in consumption. A new car every few years bolsters their egos.

I still think you are discounting the affects that a damp, northern climate has on cars. I am not a big car-watcher but my distinct impression is that 25 year old cars are pretty rare up here in New England, not because people are vain and want something new but because rust simply takes too big a toll on just about every steel part in the car. The people who are driving 25+ year old cars mostly seem to be people who love working on cars and don't mind spending much of their time working on the car and only driving the car occasionally. Yes, under those circumstances you can keep a car going almost indefinitely but it is not a realistic solution for someone who needs a reliable car to get to and from work.

You also just do not seem to be getting that I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WEAR PARTS LIKE TRANSMISSIONS AND WHEEL BEARINGS AND SUCHLIKE. I am talking about the thousands of parts in a car that are not designed to be replaced on a specific schedule and that you cannot realistically predict when they will need to be replaced until they break.

I do not know what it would take to make a car that would last for decades in a climate like New England but it certainly seems like you would have to greatly cut down on how much steel is used in the car, which would, I expect, greatly run up the cost of the car.

I think it is also worth remembering that my understanding is that when someone trades in a used car to get a new (or newer) car, that used car is not junked unless it is worth more as parts than as a whole car, which means most cars are resold and so stay on the road, just not with the same owner.

I certainly don't think you can call me a person who buys a new car every few years to boost my ego. I am in my mid-40's. I got my first car (used) about 25 years ago. I am now on my third car. I have never bought a new car. That is hardly the picture of someone who trades in their car every few years to get a new car to satisfy his vanity!

johnw
09-23-2010, 03:18 PM
Not the damp climate, the salt on the roads. Seattle is renowned for its dampness, but you'll see a lot of cars a quarter century old on the roads. My 13-year-old truck shows no sign of rust.

oznabrag
09-23-2010, 06:19 PM
I still think you are discounting the affects that a damp, northern climate has on cars. ...

You also just do not seem to be getting that I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT WEAR PARTS LIKE TRANSMISSIONS AND WHEEL BEARINGS AND SUCHLIKE. I am talking about the thousands of parts in a car that are not designed to be replaced on a specific schedule and that you cannot realistically predict when they will need to be replaced until they break.

...

I certainly don't think you can call me a person who buys a new car every few years to boost my ego. I am in my mid-40's. I got my first car (used) about 25 years ago. I am now on my third car. I have never bought a new car. That is hardly the picture of someone who trades in their car every few years to get a new car to satisfy his vanity!

Bruce!

I can assure you without reservation that I don't perceive you as vain, sir. My remarks were intended as a general description of our consumerist society, and the ways that we are manipulated into buying garbage.

I hope you will accept my sincere apology as it appears that I have offended you, and this result was not at all what I had in mind.

John T