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Syed
09-17-2010, 06:41 AM
From the thread Dollars in Protest (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?119590-Dollars-in-Protest/page13);


Dear Sir:
I did not comment on Margo's class, trustworthiness, her good looks, virtue, or good intentions. I simply stated two facts, things that cause more discontent than lies. Reading her other posts she possesses a many fine qualities. To Ms. Margo Please accept my apology if I placed a blemish on your luster, and may I suggest you read the guidebook of that religion you seem so fond of encouraging. It's called the Qur'an or here in the west we call it the Koran. A good place to start is Chapter 9 verse 5.

For those interested to read some details;

The Infamous Surah (http://ebrahimsaifuddin.wordpress.com/2010/05/08/the-infamous-surah/)


This surah is one of the most popular surahs of the Noble Qur’an among the non-Muslim propagandists. One of the first verses they will quote, in their attempt to prove violence against non-Muslims in the Qur’an, is from Surah Tauba. The verse quoted is the 5th verse and is as follows:

paladin
09-17-2010, 07:04 AM
I am not a scholar of the Q'uran but that is the way/context that I had read it. I know that it is asking too much, but those that start quoting passages ....I would have expected to read the entire text/context.

McMike
09-17-2010, 07:13 AM
It looks to me like it describes an event in history NOT a standing policy for the faithful to follow. Hmmm, I wonder how many of these passages exist in The Bible?

Stupid people will almost always say stupid things; my only hope is that stupidity is curable.

Extremists suck no matter what flavor they are; religious, political, social . . . . I wish them nothing but the simple knowledge that they are wrong, this would cause them more pain than death or the death of their loved ones . . . kind of a sad way to live if you ask me.

bob winter
09-17-2010, 07:34 AM
Very interesting, Syed, thanks. It might be a good idea to actually read the book before commenting on it and the religion connected thereto.

skuthorp
09-17-2010, 07:39 AM
Thanks Syed, interesting, and some consequences disastrous, but I place all the 'holy books' in the fiction, and probably fantasy sections of the library.

Y Bar Ranch
09-17-2010, 07:39 AM
So what is the Surah's application to modern day events?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-17-2010, 07:51 AM
Syed, allow me to quote a selection of verses from the Bible, as it is found in every Christian church today:

"If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people."

(a reference to stoning)

(Deuteronomy 13, 6-9)

"Samuel said to Saul, "I am the one the LORD sent to anoint you king over his people Israel; so listen now to the message from the LORD.
This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.' "
So Saul summoned the men and mustered them at Telaim—two hundred thousand foot soldiers and ten thousand men from Judah. 5 Saul went to the city of Amalek and set an ambush in the ravine.
Then he said to the Kenites, "Go away, leave the Amalekites so that I do not destroy you along with them; for you showed kindness to all the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt." So the Kenites moved away from the Amalekites.
Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, to the east of Egypt.
He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword".
(I Samuel 15 - shortly afterwards Saul is fired as King of Israel, for having spared Agag the King of the Amalekites and some sheep which he intended to sacrifice )

And here is a real winner, Numbers 31, in which Moses commands the people of the Lord to slay women and children:

And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, [with] the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

skuthorp
09-17-2010, 07:56 AM
Hmmmm ACB, maybe the horror/fantasy section, adults only too. Or a bit of post war crimes justification and re-writing of history?

bob winter
09-17-2010, 08:03 AM
Wonderful thing, religion.

Y Bar Ranch
09-17-2010, 08:06 AM
[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]Syed, allow me to quote a selection of verses from the Bible, as it is found in every Christian church today:
The old testament laid down the smack, but has been superseded by the new testament in modern Christianity. Although if a christian theocracy arises that ignores Jesus' teachings and goes back to the time of Moses for direction, I guess the gloves come off.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-17-2010, 08:27 AM
The old testament laid down the smack, but has been superseded by the new testament in modern Christianity. Although if a christian theocracy arises that ignores Jesus' teachings and goes back to the time of Moses for direction, I guess the gloves come off.

Feeble excuses! These instructions to rape and murder women and children are laid out plain for all to see, right there in the Christians' "Holy Book"!

Has it been cancelled? Has it been withdrawn? No - readings from the Old Testament form a part of most Church services, every Sunday!

I ask you - can you honestly trust these people? They might succumb to "sudden Crusade syndrome" (thanks, SamF) at any moment, and feel compelled to start smiting and raping left right and centre!

Y Bar Ranch
09-17-2010, 08:35 AM
Feeble excuses!
Are you an Amelekite? If not, you can sleep easy tonight.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-17-2010, 08:42 AM
But how can I be sure that Christians, whipped up to a religious frenzy by one of their fundamentalist preachers, may not take me for an Amelekite?

After all, we have living breathing Christians, mainly in the United States, who are breeding red cattle and encouraging the Israelites to take over the whole of Jerusalem in the hope that they can be "raptured" up to Heaven.

NB to Fundies - here in East Anglia we've had red cattle for a couple of centuries:

http://www.muckandmagicorganic.co.uk/images/redpoll.JPG

McMike
09-17-2010, 08:42 AM
I've been to enought church services to know that they take the OT just as seriously as the NT. Sorry about your luck Y Bar.

Y Bar Ranch
09-17-2010, 08:46 AM
But how can I be sure that Christians, whipped up to a religious frenzy by one of their fundamentalist preachers, may not take me for an Amelekite?
You should wear a hat that says I Am Not an Amelekite. Then you can rest easy.

paladin
09-17-2010, 09:00 AM
Yes...Andrew...just like I believe some Dude in those days sneaked up on a village hiding in a ravine, and with a mere quarter of a million troops (gawd, I's hate to be downwind from that bunch), with water, food, lack of sanitation facilities, etc....and then wipe out everything......sounds good on paper.....

LeeG
09-17-2010, 09:01 AM
or a hat with tea bags stapled on

pefjr
09-17-2010, 09:24 AM
Place your left hand on the book and raise your right hand and swear after me....................

Scott Rosen
09-17-2010, 09:25 AM
Feeble excuses! These instructions to rape and murder women and children are laid out plain for all to see, right there in the Christians' "Holy Book"!

Has it been cancelled? Has it been withdrawn? No - readings from the Old Testament form a part of most Church services, every Sunday!

I ask you - can you honestly trust these people? They might succumb to "sudden Crusade syndrome" (thanks, SamF) at any moment, and feel compelled to start smiting and raping left right and centre!
In Jewish and Catholic tranditions, these verses have been neutered through thousands of years of interpretation. It's what some folks call the evolution of religion. I think its more of a maturation process. I assume that Protestant doctrine does the same.

The problem with reading the holy scriptures cold, without the benefit of the interpretation, is that you get extremists.

In the Jewish rabinical tradition, the interpretation is as important as the original text. That's why there's no stoning or animal sacrifice, etc. Despite the plain language of the Bible, there are no instances in the Talmud where capital punishment was carried out.

I'm pretty sure Islam also has a history of interpretation, but I don't know much about it. It's been suggested that Islam's evolution is six or seven centuries behind Judaism and Christianity. But, as I said, I don't know much about it.

pefjr
09-17-2010, 09:44 AM
From the thread Dollars in Protest (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?119590-Dollars-in-Protest/page13);



For those interested to read some details;

The Infamous Surah (http://ebrahimsaifuddin.wordpress.com/2010/05/08/the-infamous-surah/)Y>Y>Y>

Bruce Hooke
09-17-2010, 10:16 AM
The old testament laid down the smack, but has been superseded by the new testament in modern Christianity.

When I hear this defense offered I always wonder what the person saying it means to say about Judism, since, as I understand it the Torah and the old testament of the Christian Bible are largely the same texts. It is relatively easy right now in Western countries to condemn the Koran and Islam as promoting violence and extremism. I imagine many people would be quite a bit more uncomfortable calling Judism violent and extremist and yet that is that they clearly seem to be implying when they say that the violent language of the old testament should be passed over because the it has been superseded by the new.

In one sense Scott Rosen offers a very good response to this, but note that his central point is that it is important to understand the role of interpretation when reading any religious text, including the Torah, the Bible and the Koran. I am not sure either where things stand regarding "official" interpretations of the Koran but I know for certain that my Muslim friends are not in favor of violence and extremism, so it seems pretty clear to me that some (and I very much suspect most) Muslims have come to interpretations that are functionally similar to the interpretations Jews have applied to the more violent parts of the Torah.

Bruce Hooke
09-17-2010, 10:21 AM
The problem with the holy scriptures themselves is that they require interpretation to make them less than abominable, to modern man. Only by selective interpretation and 'refudiation' (*lol*) could modern man tolerate the message.

Which is why my religious tradition teaches that these ancient texts contain much wisdom, but that they should not be read literally but rather as "creation myths" from another time that help us understand our past and the human condition, and provide "metaphorical" guidelines for living but not literal directions.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-17-2010, 10:35 AM
I'm pretty sure Islam also has a history of interpretation, but I don't know much about it.

It most certainly does - probably, in sheer volume terms, a much larger tradition of interpretation than either Judaism or Christianity (in other words, the books written, over the centuries, would fill several large warehouses) The fact is - few of "us" Judaeo-Christians know much about our sister religion of the Book.


It's been suggested that Islam's evolution is six or seven centuries behind Judaism and Christianity. But, as I said, I don't know much about it.

With respect, Scott, that's a bit of a schoolboy old chestnut, based simply on the dates when the Revelation was given. Intellectually, it's nonsense - Islam is NOT "in the middle ages", but some of its adherents, like some of Christianity's adherents, are not highly educated citizens of the "developed world".

Scott Rosen
09-17-2010, 10:51 AM
Holy scriptures are a lot like the US Constitution in that their meanings evolve, or become revealed (depending on your point of view) over time and through interpretation.

For example, the phrase, "nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law" may seem crystal clear on first reading it. But try to apply it to a particular set of facts and you then see how vague it really is.

Back to scripture -- In Jewish tradition, there are guiding principles to be applied in interpretation. They are uniformly followed in all major branches.

-- Choose Life

-- Love your neighbor as yourself

-- Love your god with all your heart, etc.

-- Commandments that related to a specific place, i.e. temple sacrifices, were considered abrogated upon the destruction of the second temple and the expulsion from the holy land.

In 70 A.D., Judaism split into two factions which have developed in parallel. One was early Christianity, the other was rabbinic Judaism. Both are remarkably similar. Christianity didn't simply pick up where Judaism left off. They have grown up together and like siblings they have had their scuffles. It would be grossly inaccurate to think that a straight reading of the OT is representative of modern Judaism, even orthodoxy.

In earlier times, interpretation was the province of the highly educated scholars. That was true for the Church as well. I'm sure some of you remember a time when the Church banned its followers from reading certain texts. That's because they didn't think the uneducated person could properly interpret and understand the texts.

Scott Rosen
09-17-2010, 10:56 AM
With respect, Scott, that's a bit of a schoolboy old chestnut, based simply on the dates when the Revelation was given. Intellectually, it's nonsense - Islam is NOT "in the middle ages", but some of its adherents, like some of Christianity's adherents, are not highly educated citizens of the "developed world". I don't offer that as my own opinion. Truth is, I know very little about Islam and I am not competent to discuss it. I am aware that there are different branches of Islam which formed very early in its history. As a result, Islam has not had a central authority to interpret the texts, as Christianity and Judaism have. For better or worse, our present iterations of Christianity and Judaism bear the imprint of the early central authorities -- The Church and the Rabbis of the Talmud.

bobbys
09-17-2010, 11:01 AM
Feeble excuses! These instructions to rape and murder women and children are laid out plain for all to see, right there in the Christians' "Holy Book"!

Has it been cancelled? Has it been withdrawn? No - readings from the Old Testament form a part of most Church services, every Sunday!

I ask you - can you honestly trust these people? They might succumb to "sudden Crusade syndrome" (thanks, SamF) at any moment, and feel compelled to start smiting and raping left right and centre!.

Actually Yes it has been canceled and withdrawn .

First of all the Law was only for OT Hebrews and applied to no one else.

There were different Ages in the OT.

For example the Law was given to the Hebrews as the way to commune with God And It was shown no Man could keep the Law.

A Sacrifice had to be made to atone for sins.

There were other "Ages" such as the Age of Conscience where every man did as he saw fit in his own eyes, The Age of Kings where the people thought a ruler would be the Answer,Etc..... .

One cannot "pull" a verse out of the context of the age to prove another Age wrong..

We are in the Age of Grace as Christan's and we do not follow the Law as JC said when the unclean things to eat were presented before him..

JC Was the Lamb scarified, The Ultimate sacifice.

I Know not who these Crusaders you speak of who are planning to Rape and murder but i do not see this in the Bible for today and it would not be Applicable to the Word of God so you would be correct not to trust them.

Remember JC in the Garden where he said Put down the sword., He went willingly ..

However in the end days there gonna be a whole lotta shootin going on!

Andrew Craig-Bennett
09-17-2010, 11:02 AM
It would be grossly inaccurate to think that a straight reading of the OT is representative of modern Judaism, even orthodoxy.

Indeed not! My citations from the more blood curdling parts of the OT (a scripture that is common to all three religions, hence the Moslem term "peoples of the Book") were intended humorously!


In earlier times, interpretation was the province of the highly educated scholars. That was true for the Church as well. I'm sure some of you remember a time when the Church banned its followers from reading certain texts. That's because they didn't think the uneducated person could properly interpret and understand the texts.

Very much the case for Islam as well.

I suggest that what we are seeing with "Islamic fundamentalism" is very much the same thing as we see with Christian fundamentalism particularly in the USA, where, in the absence of any overall authority, pretty well anyone, like last week's nutcase in Florida, with his congrgation of fifty, can announce that he (it's almost always "he") is an expert and is in a position to tell the rest of us dumbskulls what the Scriptures actually mean.

Judaism seems to the outsider to be, blessedly, less infected by this nonsense, but I dare say it has it too. It may just be that most flavours of nutty Judaism have already been tried and the memory of disaster is still green (70 AD and all that...)

Scott Rosen
09-17-2010, 11:10 AM
Indeed not! My citations from the more blood curdling parts of the OT (a scripture that is common to all three religions, hence the Moslem term "peoples of the Book") were intended humorously!

Very much the case for Islam as well.

I suggest that what we are seeing with "Islamic fundamentalism" is very much the same thing as we see with Christian fundamentalism particularly in the USA, where, in the absence of any overall authority, pretty well anyone, like last week's nutcase in Florida, with his congrgation of fifty, can announce that he (it's almost always "he") is an expert and is in a position to tell the rest of us dumbskulls what the Scriptures actually mean.

Judaism seems to the outsider to be, blessedly, less infected by this nonsense, but I dare say it has it too. It may just be that most flavours of nutty Judaism have already been tried and the memory of disaster is still green (70 AD and all that...)
Not to worry, Andrew. I wasn't thinking of your comments when I wrote that. I was thinking of the American form of fundementalism, where every word of the Bible is truth, but each person is free to interpret it as he would like.

We Jews have our loonies, too. It's just that, until recent times, our loonies weren't in a position to do any real harm. Now, with the establishment of Israel, the Jewish fundies have caused their share of serious damage. Baruch Goldstein for example. Not to mention the settler movement.

Syed
09-17-2010, 11:16 AM
The word used for Qur'an's explanation is Tafseer.



Meaning of Word Tafseer
(1) (Verb) Explaining and understanding a situation or text.
(2) (Noun) A commentary or explanation of something. Usually, the tafseer (commentary) is of the Qur'an or a verse of the Qur'an.

Somehow, the word interpretation is not used.

Scott Rosen
09-17-2010, 01:42 PM
Somehow, the word interpretation is not used.That's interesting. I think most orthodox practitioners of Judaism and Christianity would also not use the word "interpretation."

Your English is excellent Syed, so please forgive me if you already know this -- The word "interpretation" implies that the person doing the interpreting is actually adding some of his own meaning to the text. On the other hand, a person who is commenting on or explaining a text is not adding his own meaning. For those who believe the holy scriptures are the actual word of god, the notion of "interpretation" is blasphemy. To them, all of the meaning is already in the text; it's their job to find it, not to change it.

varadero
09-17-2010, 01:59 PM
For those interested there is a "Koran for Dummies" available. It is actually very interesting and as with the Bible is open to interpretension by the reader. Take what you like, and leave what you dont!

paladin
09-17-2010, 03:58 PM
I find this most interesting. While in the Middle East I collected a wealth of books to read, some while there, others for later. Many of the books have several counterparts in the U.S. written by scholars and historians from the U.S. and Europe in general. I have to really smile when reading of an incident/situation when recorded/explained by an American or European scholar, and the same situations/history when recorded by a local scholar (Saudi/Jordanian/Iranian/Iraqi/Libyan etc). I had been involved in the 70's/80's with Afghanis/Iraqis etc so collected tomes written by some of the more "famous" people of the time.

BrianW
09-17-2010, 04:30 PM
Who'd doing the killing today, in the name of Allah/Jehovah?

That's important.

Y Bar Ranch
09-17-2010, 04:55 PM
For those interested there is a "Koran for Dummies" available.
Is there any other version? :ycool:

Sorry...too easy of a shot.

WX
09-17-2010, 05:05 PM
I watched a doco on Satan last night, seems in the beginning he was actually the character that did God's dirty work.
Another interesting tidbit, where Jesus refers to Hell he is actually referring to Jerusalem's rubbish tip. The place where the bodies of executed criminals were dumped.

WX
09-17-2010, 05:08 PM
Thank you for injecting some sanity Syed.