kayaks....strip or plywood?

[sidneyhuskey]

I have a few questions and will most likely have several more before this is over. I am considering getting into building kayaks. I have some woodworking and some limited boat building experience. My first question is which would be the best to begin with...a strip built kayak or a plywood? Are the plans sold in the Wooden Boat store just as good as ones sold at say CLC Boats. I have also thought of trying canoes thinking the construction might done much the same way. Does anyone have any thoughts or see flaws in my thinking.

[ 03-16-2003, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: sidneyhuskey ]

[JimD]

Sidney, stitch and glue plywood will probably be easier but chances are will only prepare you to build more stitch and glue or hard chined framed boats. If you want the those curves only planking will give you, may as well go for plank in the first place. I don't have experience with plans purchased from WB or CLC. Perhaps others will help with that.
jimd

[George Roberts]

"getting into building kayaks"

Are you building one for you or a hundred to sell?

You can build nice boats either way. Woodstrip boats take longer which is good if you like the building process rather than the paddling.

Different plans will handle differently. Build something that will be usable where you live.

[LeeG]

Sidney, I don't see flaws but more questions,,you say kayak(s) as in more than one. This implies boats that are not necessarily for your own use, which begs the question,,what are you building for? If it's gifts then make sure the craft fits the user, if it's with the intention of building and selling to pay for the habit then be warned you will find yourself entering into a market where production boats reduce an unknown builders work close to the cost of materials.
If you're building for yourself,,then you'll find a wider range of designs in strip than s&g,,and a lot of designs fit the peculiarities of the designer as much as generally recognized attributes for "good handling". The other thing worth acknowledging is that kayaking itself requires some skill so you may find that popular designs are suited to a skill level that may not exactly be matched to a builders priorities.
For Canoes check out Bear Mtn.

http://www.bearmountainboats.com/board.asp

for gathering information on kayaks start asking questions here

http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Building/index.cgi

[garland reese]

Hi Sydney,

A lot might depend on your own personal preference or even what materials you have easy access to. I really don't think that strip is any more difficult that stitch and glue, just different and mor labor intensive. If you do your homework and take you time, you can turn out a very nice boat either way. I cannot get marine ply locally, but I can find enough reasonable quality cedar to build a stripper.
So far as designs go, you need to think about what you want in terms of performance. Each deisgn has strong points and weak points. Building methods vary somewhat in strip building. Purchasing Nick Schade's book and Ted Moores' Kayakcraft (and even Caonecraft) will help you see some of the subtle differences in technique and set up for building. One Ocean kayaks has a nice builder's manual. Vaclav does a good job of engineering his boats. Here are just a few sites for kayak plans........

Bear Mountain (http://www.bearmountainboats.com/)
B and B yachts - Diva kayak (http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/)
guillemot kayaks (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/)
One Ocean kayaks (http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/)

[Wild Dingo]

What they said!!... I intend to build a strip kayak such as Lisas or Jakes... just to build one!! ;)

But Im taking the route of building a couple of strip canoes first {wee lassie and wee lassie 2 from Mac McCarthy (http://www.feathercanoes.com)} this I think will not only give me the necessary experience with building these sort of designs {over a "boat" design} and then once done I have a couple of canoes I can either keep give to the hoons or sell... :cool:

Then intention is to build a couple of "free" s&g kayaks {both at guillemot kayaks (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/StripBuilt/Aleut/Offsets.html) just look around the site there is another} and then a stripper such as Redfish Kayaks "the return" (http://www.redfishkayak.com/kayaks.htm) or Guillemot's "night heron" (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/index.html)

Meanwhile... HA!! :D ...Im hopeing to have at least started building a 20 or so ft sailboat... but thats down the track... Ive also got plans of building the 30ft schooner Susan from the late Murray Petersons board... then theres this catamaran Im drooling over and so it goes :rolleyes: :D :cool:

Best of luck!!

[Eric Sea Frog]

Sydney,

There's no flaw in speaking of building several kayaks, as that's just what do most of the builders I know of. As a yak is faster to make, they're even more compulsive builders as sailboat builders and you'll always find them busy constructing the perfect, absolutelyschmutzmacflaminglast one!
You'll see the inlay woodworking they do if you look up the Guillemot site (listed by another poster). It's puzzling. The only downside of Guillemot yaks, for beginners at least, is their poor tracking due to their round-flat bottom.
Redfish haven't been mentioned in strip-planked.
Pygmy yaks are easy to make, in the same ballpark as ChesapeakeLCs.
You can build mixed designs, though they're harder to find. Look up the Guillemot site for a recent magnificent construction by an amateur.
They combine a hard-chined design and a stripped, lovely deck.
Clark Craft plans are the cheapest; see site.
Another difference is that stripped have a round bilge, and stitch'n'glued have hard chines, though some are actually multi-chined.
Round hulls are generally deemed the faster (such as Caribou flatwater interceptors), while hard-chined (that originate in Greenlandic designs) have a reputation for rolling less and being steadier. Some say they track better but this is disputable as the low-deep explanation might lie in a more peaked bottom, especially on Aleut designs.
On hard-chined you often have to carve a turn.
Pick a boat that fits your body size.

Hope this helps.

PS. The loom of your paddle should be as large as your boat's deck, if you pick a greenlandic paddle.

[Leon Steyns]

Sidney,

I'd recommend these two books to start with. They both contain easy-to-build-plans for beginners and make for excellent reading:

- Canoecraft by Ted Moores (link: here (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=300-030&variation=&aitem=3&mitem=36).)

- The Stripper's Guide to Canoe Building by David Hazen (link: here (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=300-135&variation=&aitem=4&mitem=36).)

Both links are provided by our generous sponsor...

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[Keith Wilson]

Tef Moore has a very good new book specifically on strip-planked kayak construction entitled (surprise) Kayakcraft, available at the WB store, among other places. His description of how to do fiberglass sheathing so it comes out smooth and fair and requires very little subsequent sanding is worth the price of the book alone.

My .02 is that strip planking takes considerably more time, allows a rounded hull shape, which in some folk's opinion, produces a prettier boat. I wouldn't say that strip-planking is much harder, just takes more hours; more pieces, more sanding.

Just to muddy the waters, I started the lofting yesterday on a kayak which I'm thinking about building in light lapstrake plywood.

[ 03-17-2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[George Roberts]

Many of the posters have recommended books, manufacturers and bulletin boards.

If you read the posts on the bulletin boards you will find that wood strips kayaks and canoes built to the recommendations have relative short "time between reapair" records.

A post was called to my attention today. A fellow spent 4 months building a wood strip kayak and several hundred dollars for ear. He started on a wilderness trip, and within a few miles was sitting on a rock, watching half of his kayak spinning in a whirlpool.

A good part of paddling is skill. A well built boat will protect you from the occassional laps of skill. Those books, manufacturers and bulletin boards will not help you make a well built wood strip boat.

[Eric Sea Frog]

Originally posted by George Roberts:

A post was called to my attention today. A fellow spent 4 months building a wood strip kayak and several hundred dollars for ear. He started on a wilderness trip, and within a few miles was sitting on a rock, watching half of his kayak spinning in a whirlpool.

A good part of paddling is skill. A well built boat will protect you from the occassional laps of skill. Those books, manufacturers and bulletin boards will not help you make a well built wood strip boat.Paddling skills matter a lot, for sure.
I'd beg to differ on one or two points, though.
I learned a lot from fellow builders, all my boat-building culture was gained from the net.
The famous paddler who broke a yak on the Nth Sask,Cn last year -let's pick this example- had missed a portage and banged his hull on quite a big rock that was standing in the middle of a fall. It was a stitch-and-glued.
I could hardly find a wooden boat that could resist such a head-on shock, let alone carbon fibers. I don't know about tupperwares.

[George Roberts]

Eric Sea Frog ---

According to Canoecraft several tons of machinery dropped on a wood strip boat does not cause much damage.

According to the bulletin boards, a 70mph impact between a wood strip boat and the pavement causes only cosmetic damage.

Plywood boats (if I was mistaken) are usually tougher.

----

Aside from the fact that the hull shape was wrong, the materials spec was wrong, and the paddler lacked skill. The trip was a success. I hope your education on the internet and from those sources was better.

----

A lot of people build durable wood strip and plywood kayaks and canoes. The sources mentioned do not lead in the correct direction.

[ 03-17-2003, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: George Roberts ]

[LeeG]

George,,this has been a long standing position of yours. For those that don't have access to a singular master for the correct direction from which to learn all that you describe,,where will a person learn to build a simple craft using simple techniques if not from books, bulletin boards and other builders?

[Keith Wilson]

George - After helping a couple of friends build stripper canoes, I have no interest in building stip-planked boats; too much googe and too much time spent fairing for my taste. However, you've mentioned several times that normal strip-planked boats are too fragile. What would you recommend?

Common scantlings for a stripper are, say, 1/4" red cedar with a layer of 6 or 8 oz glass cloth and epoxy on either side, maybe a second layer outside. This has seemed in my very limited experience OK for relatively gentle use, not for whitewater. It's not hard to build them stronger; thicker wood and more 'glass, but of course then you get a heavier boat. You could use Kevlar, but that's expensive and not as easy to work with. I'd be interested to know what you think is robust enough for various uses.

[George Roberts]

LeeG & Keith Wilson ---

If you compare the strength of commercial glass kayaks (Phoenix kayaks builds 26# 13' whitewater kayaks) or the recommendations for glass kayaks in "Boat Builder's Manual" to the recommendations of the sources others have listed, it is clear that the wood strip or plywood kayaks in those recommendations are heavy and weak.

If you want a strong wood strip or plywood kayak, hire a NA or PE to design one as strong as the glass boats.

If you really get desperate, you can try to find a booklet I wrote some time ago. It was sold new for $40. It has been sold used $200. (I don't give free engineering advice any more.)

----

You really don't want a good boat. You want your boat to be regarded as good.

[LeeG]

Originally posted by George Roberts:
LeeG & Keith Wilson ---

If you compare the strength of commercial glass kayaks (Phoenix kayaks builds 26# 13' whitewater kayaks) or the recommendations for glass kayaks in "Boat Builder's Manual" to the recommendations of the sources others have listed, it is clear that the wood strip or plywood kayaks in those recommendations are heavy and weak.

If you want a strong wood strip or plywood kayak, hire a NA or PE to design one as strong as the glass boats.

If you really get desperate, you can try to find a booklet I wrote some time ago. It was sold new for $40. It has been sold used $200. (I don't give free engineering advice any more.)

----

You really don't want a good boat. You want your boat to be regarded as good.George, how can hiring a NA or PE designing a wood/glass/epoxy kayak make it a kayak that is not "heavy and weak"? The layups recommended in Charles' book are for ester and various cloth laminates,,you are comparing them to wood/glass/epoxy laminates,,kind of an apples to oranges comparison isn't it? Your argument is moot because issues of durability in whitewater are answered with polyethelene boats, folks with laminate ww boats have good skills so as to not let their boats meet the rocks more than necessary.
"heavy and weak" is a blanket statement without reference. From what I've seen the water can break anything so use is more of a determining factor in whether something is "strong enough" than whether it's made "correctly" and weighing 35lbs or "incorrectly" and weighing 45lbs.

[George Roberts]

LeeG ---

i will not teach you engineering. Maybe you should read the writing of Tom MacNaughton or Dave Gerr. I believe both are NAs perhaps even PEs. They both claim to design boats with the same strength using various construction methods. I believe them. They both claim that pound for pound wood strip building is one of the strongest methods.

I build 25-30# 17' (glass no kevlar) wood strip kayaks that I paddle on CIII rivers and the Great Lakes. I land on furniture sized rocks in less than ideal conditions. These boats may not be strong enough for you, but they are lighter and stronger than the heavy weak boats in the references given by others. They are even lighter than and as strong as the boats in my references.

Maybe you should ask the references given by others why the boats they recommend are heavy and weak.

[LeeG]

George, I am not asking you to teach me, I am asking you to explain your reasoning as to how a NA/PE can make a DESIGN stronger, as you put your self in a position of condemning others instruction where you provide none. It's great that you have built a craft that meets your needs,,how much do you weigh and how old are you? (usually an inverse indicator of how rough a recreational boat will be used).
Three yrs. ago I asked if you had any experiential basis for comparing 4oz s-glass with similar weight fine weave e-glass and never got an answer.
My take on the issue is that thermoplastics such as the type Eddyline uses are an ideal material for small boat use in kayaks.
30#and 17'? wow,,just think how tough you could make it if it weighed 40lbs!

[George Roberts]

LeeG ---

you wrote:

"Three yrs. ago I asked if you had any experiential basis for comparing 4oz s-glass with similar weight fine weave e-glass and never got an answer."

Did anyone answer your guestion? I suppose not.

Find my address someplace. Send me $10k and I will send you my $40 booklet that covers that matter. I don't like you.

[LeeG]

Thank you for your honesty. $10K is an odd number of digits.

[Keith Wilson]

Jeez, George, there's no need to get so blasted testy. FWIW, I recommended Moore's book not for the designs, about which I haven't thought enough to say anything intelligent, but for his clear explanation of strip-building techniques, which I though would be helpful to someone new to this method of construction.

You have claimed that some of the sources recommended here advocate designs that are "heavy and weak". This very well may be true; if you can build a 17' 26# boat that will handle class 3 rapids, you very obviously know something about the subject. So what would you recommend that an amateur builder do if he doesn't want to learn enough engineering to work it out from first principles, or commission a custom design (which I assume you realize is a bit extreme for a single small boat)? Which commercially available kayak designs do you think are good?

[sidneyhuskey]

Keith Wright.

Thanks for your last post. Those were the questions I wanted to ask. Did not want to get to technical just wanted some informed builders to direct me in the correct path. Or at least help me avoid some mistakes they have made. And for anyone that is concerned any longer i had intended on learning how so maybe one day i could sell a few. Thinking mostly to lake, flat river, or ocean users. White water and wood does not sound like a good idea anymore.

[George Roberts]

hopefully, my last post in this thread.

LeeG ---

$10k = $10,000. I really don't like you and I don't need your business.

Keith Wilson ---

I said all (not some) of the references (including Mr. Moores) produce heavy weak boats.

I am a bit tight with the directions and plans I sell (I don't need the money). I don't know of anyone else who sells good directions. I do not make recommendations of plans of others.

[LeeG]

George, for a good time get Mark Rogers manual for building the Arctic Hawk. For light reading Vacalvs manual for building the Cirrus is good. You're fun.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Phoenix Kayaks? Your knowledge of kayak construction just slipped several rungs down the ladder in my mind. I was a dealer for Phoenix kayaks from day #1 until they canned their dealer network to increase their margins. Of all the composite kayaks we sold, they were the least durable construction. Their mix of fiberglass layers and a layer of nylon was horribly prone to delamination. The higher tear strength that it offered was quickly offset by a bottom covered with mushy, delaminated areas that were very hard to repair.

Much of their other "engineering" was also suspect. For example, they did away with the common ethafoam block between the seat bottom and the hull's inside to remove the stress riser that it makes. In addition, they rolled the forward edge of the seat down to make it smoother. I remember having their national sales manager in my store and telling him that in use, the seat edge was going to cut into the floor as the hull flexed. "Oh no, that will never happen..."

Sure enough, after a couple seasons, most of the Cascades and Appalachians had worn almost all the way through in a band about 1/2" wide by a foot long, right under the seat's front edge. When you combine their construction's problems with a bunch of 25 year old designs that were never much to write home about in the first place, the line doesn't have much to offer and certainly isn't a very good example of current composite kayak technology.

George, I haven't seen anything around the industry that would indicate that you are known for your skills as a kayak designer or builder, though I know that you are doing some interesting things with your construction. We frequent several of the same forums and I'm always puzzled by your attitude. It never changes - "My boats are better than everybody elses and I'm not going to help anybody with anything. I'm just going to sit here and tell you that everybody else is wrong." If you could can the sour attitude long enough to actually make some sort of contribution to the sport, there are plenty of people who would be interested in listening. If you put it in a book, I for one would probably buy a copy. Granted, you don't need the money (not that boating books make anybody much money) but at least you might get some respect in the industry from somebody other than just yourself. In the mean time, this same old song and dance - "My boats are better and I won't help you" is getting pretty lame.

[Keith Wilson]

George: These are the sources of plans and information that were mentioned in this thread, although I may have missed one or two:

Bear Mountain (Ted Moore) books: Canoecraft and Kayakcraft
Guillemot Kayaks
One Ocean Kayaks
B & B Yacht Design
Mac McCarthy
Redfish Kayaks
Clark Craft
Chesapeake Light Craft
Pygmy Kayaks
Caribou
The Stripper's Guide to Canoe Building, by David Hazen
The kayak forum BB

You claim that ALL of them give information that will result in heavy and weak boats. Well, OK, you may very well be right, the conventional wisdom has certainly been wrong before. You then decline to talk about your methods, refer to an out-of-print booklet you published, and say that you are “tight” with your own plans and descriptions of your techniques because you don’t need the money. That’s certainly your right; you don’t have to tell anyone anything if you don’t want to. But excuse me, if you are neither interested in selling or giving information, why bother to come on the forum and tell everyone they’re doing it wrong? If you really do have a better way to build boats, particularly if you don’t need the money, why not try to spread the information around so that better boats can be built?

[George Roberts]

Todd Bradshaw ---

I never said that Phoenix boats (or the boats recommend in the Boat Builder's Manual) were strong. I said they were lighter and stronger than the wood strip and plywood boats from the referenced sources.

I spent 2 perhaps 3 years trying to share with the kayak and canoe community. I know when to give up.

I now find building top end kayaks more profitable.

(I always found my Phoenix boat to be sufficient for my needs: Arkansas whitewater weekends and Canadian whitewater 16 day trips.)

Keith Wilson ---

I am not the only one to say the boats are not durable.

Nick Shoddy at Guillemot Kayaks a professional builder, professional designer, good paddler, and renowned author says the same in his book on building wood strip kayaks (near pg 216 I believe). His boats are not substantially different than any of the other references. The story goes -- he designed, built and paddled his kayak with his brother. Together and alone on water of their chosing they put a hole in it.

I never said my booklet was out of print. It is simply difficult to buy. It is listed on my website.

[TomRobb]

Perhaps he's trolling and somehow hasn't found the bilge - misc - yet.

This stuff gets pretty tiresome.

Perhaps there's nothing positive added because he has nothing worth saying.

[Keith Wilson]

For those interested in Mr. Roberts's kayaks or the aforementioned $40 booklet of scantlings and construction techniques, he does business as OpenWater Kayaks in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. He has a fairly extensive web site in which he describes the products he sells and discusses his and others' boats in terms similar to those used in his posts here. He requests that links not be posted without his permission, so I won't, but the World Wide Canoe Web Database (http://www.tep.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de/~steve/canoe/db_search.php?cat=9) has an extensive list of kayak manufacturers, Mr. Roberts among them.

[LeeG]

oh lord,,,George,,people use their boats,,they get damaged, they don't get damaged,,some people are heavier and younger than other people and more likely to damage materials that aren't really the best thing for repetive impacts. None of which reflect objective test data. Smaller people in small boats will have less damage everything being equal, construction/use. High glass/resin ratios are ideal but the water still breaks 55lb surf kayaks like the Tsunami sit-ons that are built with 3/16" layers of kevlar.

[TomRobb]

We do business/advertise on the web, but the url is a secret? :D
Pretty amazing stuff :rolleyes:

[Keith Wilson]

Yeah, I thought it was pretty wierd too. George Roberts may build the best kayaks in the history of the planet, I have no idea, but the contrast between his attitude and that of other very knowledgeable people who post here is quite remarkable.

[TomRobb]

I've been to the mountain top; I've looked at the mystery site. You're not missing much, IMHO, because it's much the same stuff as he's posted here.

You can post his url if you agree to his $1000 fine. Or so he says. But I'm not sure why you'd want to. Where he's coming from is pretty well displayed here. Smart guy, claims to be a PE, some may find his beligerant style off-putting - go figure :rolleyes:

[Todd Bradshaw]

More of the same old stuff George. The last time I looked, this board and the others like it were about sharing ideas and contributing to the knowledge pool. Since you gave up on sharing with the canoe and kayak community a while back, what is it that you're trying to share with us now? From what I've seen, all you ever share is your bad attitude. A canoe or kayak manufacturer that generally responds to people interested in his website with "You'll have to find it yourself" is certainly unusual in the industry. As I seem to remember from your recent flame war with that Canadian engineer on the Bear Mountain board, you actually make a living as an accountant. Perhaps that's why you don't need to promote your boats to make money.

There is no question that the strip-boat building market is booming and that much of the construction technology hasn't changed dramatically since the early '70's when the only people selling touring strippers were Hazen and Wonacott. The market is ripe for somebody to promote, explore and explain advanced composites for strip building and there are plenty of people getting ready to start their second or third boat who would be all ears.

If your work is actually valid, you might be able to make a genuine contribution, but one crabby guy building a few strippers isn't going to do it. You seem to have the option of being known in the paddling community as either a guy who builds some very interesting boats and who's ideas are worth listening to, or as some sort of flake with little more to offer than a rotten attitude. It puzzles me that you invariably chose to promote yourself as the latter.

As far as this thread goes, boat strength can be looked at in a lot of different ways and it may or may not have much to do with real world durability. You can punch a hole in any kayak and most things that will do it will also do significant damage to any other kayak. Rocks are generally stronger than boats, and that hasn't changed and won't any time soon. If I was preparing to build another strip kayak or a CLC/Pygmy-type plywood boat, I wouldn't lose much sleep worrying about the possibility of holing it. A lot of people have put an awful lot of tripping and racing miles of the so-called "heavy and weak" constructions without incident and whether your boat gets holed or not is usually much more up to you than it is your boat's construction.

I've owned around 30 different kayaks over the years, composite, wood-strip and skin on frame boats like Kleppers. I sold canoes and kayaks for about 20 years which also gave me an opportunity to use a lot of boats that I didn't own myself. I used to run a lot of whitewater and taught whitewater kayaking in the pre-rotomolded Polyethylene days, but in all that time I have only punched two holes in boats. I had one buddy who popped out of a hole in a semi-ender and impaled the bottom of his kayak on the bow of mine as I waited below (it's kind of interesting to paddle to shore in moving water with another boat and it's occupant T-boned on your bow). The other was a decked canoe which in a moment of youthful stupidity, we decided to run a dam with and lost. It was totaled with both ends and half the deck ripped-off. No construction would have survived 20 minutes of being tumbled in the roller below the dam.

On my first trip to Quetico in a stripper we put in at Moose Lake and were headed up fast to Brent and Conmee where the big pike live. At some point we ran our fully loaded, brand new 18' Micmac onto one of those big rocks that the Muyaguesee hide just below the surface of what seems to be calm water. Sitting in the stern, I watched the Duluth packs rise and fall as the bottom flexed and the heard a sound like the bottom being torn out of my canoe. We came to a stop, high-centered on the boulder bad enough that I had to get a leg out to push-off. We immediately paddled to the nearest shore, unloaded the boat and turned it over expecting to see some horrible gash in the bottom. All that was there was a scratch in the varnish and filler coats, no hole, no bruised or fractured glass, no delamination. I certainly wouldn't want to make a practice of nailing submerged boulders in strippers, but in my experience, the typical "heavy and weak" construction is pretty tough.

These days, we're down to four sea kayaks and I just ordered a fifth. I'll be the first to admit that my kayak choices are far more influenced by how the boat handles than by what it's made of or what the lamination schedule is. I'd probably paddle one made from potato starch and Tightbond if it had the paddling characteristics that I like.

I treat them like they may be my only way of getting back to the put-in point and so far, they've been up to the job. Anybody can screw-up, tag a sharp rock and punch a hole in their kayak, including George in one of his "wonder boats". Is it less likely to do significant damage to a boat built with an advanced construction? Possibly. Is such a lay-up worth investigating, documenting, experimenting with and using? Certainly. Should folks following the directions that came with their CLC kit or from Ted's book or similar be worried about their boat not being sturdy enough to be safe? Hardly.

[George Roberts]

Keith Wilson, et. al. ---

Your behaviors are why I stopped trying to help people build better kayaks.

My scantlings were free. My designs were free.

There are many people who have built kayaks according to both my scantlings and those in the resources you support. In each case my scantlings produced boats weighing 10 pounds less. As far as damage, the boats built to my scantlings survive all year without repairs. The boats built to your favorite scantlings were repaired on a monthly basis.

You will never hear from, because they do not need your abuse.

(I have never claimed to be a CPA. My wife is one.)

[LeeG]

Todd, what's your kayak on order?,,,I haven't bought a new glass or plastic boat in 8 yrs but the VCP Avocet or Aquasomething looks good,,,untill I look at the price.

[Keith Wilson]

Mr. Roberts; You seem to have seriously misunderstood the intent of my posts, particularly the early ones. I do not purport to be any sort of an authority on strip-planked boat construction, although if you ever want to know about automated assembly and web handling equipment, I’m your man. Here is a summary of our conversation, as I understand it:

Sidneyhuskey asks a fairly straightforward question about methods of kayak construction.

Several folks suggest sources for plans and information.

I suggest Moore’s book, not because I claim to be any authority on kayaks, but because it is a relatively thorough, clearly written, and easy to follow exposition of the conventional wisdom for someone who hasn’t built boats before. I also make some innocuous remarks (agreeing with you, BTW) about how strip planking takes longer than taped-seam plywood.

You say that boats built according to the recommendation in Moore’s book and other sources mentioned are easily damaged.

This interests me; I had not heard that opinion before. The sources I have read seem to have similar ideas about proper construction; the idea that there might be a better way is something new to me. I describe conventional scantlings and ask, politely I thought, for your opinion, hoping I might learn something. I mention the obvious fact that it is relatively simple to make a stronger boat by using exotic materials or by making it heavier. I certainly do not intend to argue with you about kayak design; I haven’t studied the subject enough to do that.

You reiterate that you think the boats built by the common methods are “heavy and weak”. You suggest, sarcastically I believe, that we should hire a NA to design a kayak. Still more sarcastically, you suggest that we could “try to find” your booklet; no mention of the fact that it’s currently available. Then, really out of the blue, you write, “You really don't want a good boat. You want your boat to be regarded as good. “

This surprises me quite a lot, since first, it isn’t true, second, I have no interest in building a whitewater kayak, and third, I have no idea how you came to believe this. Ok, well, everybody gets crabby sometimes. I explain why I mentioned Moore’s book. I ask what someone should do to build a good boat, and if there are any kayak plans that you do like.

I’ll leave out the exchange with LeeG, since it doesn’t involve me.

You say that you are “tight” with the plans and directions you sell (this is BTW, the first time you mentioned that you sold plans) and that you don’t recommend anyone else’s.

By now I’m starting to get a bit irritated. I list the sources mentioned in previous posts, and ask why bother to post here if don’t want to disseminate your ideas more widely. Please note that I have never said anything about the merits of your designs or methods; how could I when I don’t know anything about them?

I now go find your web site, and post information showing folks how to get to it. I respect your wishes and don’t put in a link, nor a copy of the URL, although this seems weird to me. I remark on the weirdness, (most folks in business are only too happy to have people directed to their web sites) and on the contrast between your attitude and that of others on the forum.

You post: “Your behaviors are why I stopped trying to help people build better kayaks.”

Now what in the world is this about?? I realize that there must be some history here I know nothing about, but c’mon now! You express a strong opinion, I ask politely for clarification and more information; you get sarcastic and blow me off. Your designs certainly may be as good as you say, and I would certainly be interested in learning more about your construction techniques (at this point it’s not worth $40 to me, though) but more folks might listen to you if you didn’t have quite such an enormous chip on your shoulder.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Lee,
I ordered a shiny new, custom-built C.D. Gulfstream, mostly as a short trip and play boat. I really like Hutchinson's designs and the "get out of just vertical paddling and make your boat dance" philosophy which he teaches in his seminars. I have other boats with more volume and better big-wave characteristics, so this one will just be mainly for fun and it's one of the best I've paddled in that category.

The Avocet is another good one. We had one for a while as a possible spare boat that both my wife and I could paddle. It was a bit small for me though and we both found the fiberglass seat to be extremely uncomfortable. After about a half-hour of paddling we were both quite ready to get out of the boat. If I were to get another one, I would order it with the optional foam seat, which seems to be drastically better. A lot of the people around here who paddle Avocets and Pintails have wound-up cutting out the fiberglass seats and replacing them with the foam versions. The Avocet rotomold is also a pretty respectable boat for polyethylene.

The Argonaut is similar to the fiberglass Avocet but longer and fits bigger people better. The first batch had some rather strange places on the hull where it appeared that they had literally cut and pieced existing molds together to stretch the hull into the Argonaut design. As far as I know, the shape has now been faired-out and the current version doesn't look patched together.

[George Roberts]

Keith Wilson ----

I am sorry if I misunderstood your position. I am sorry if I mistreated you.

(Let me say I don't get into kayak design either. If a boat works for you, fine.)

Your profile indicates that you are a Mechanical Engineer. (That puts you a step above all of the resource providers except Vaclav at One Ocean Kayaks. I believe he has a BS in Materials Science. Nick Schade has a BS in Electrical Engineering. That puts him with the rest a step below you and Vaclav.)

When you suggested Mr. Moore’s book, I didn't ask for defense or proof of that position. I expect that you as an engineer have proof that satisfies you.

When others suggested other books and resources, I didn't ask them for a defense or proof. I expected they had their reasons.

Until there were a lot of what I would consider bad suggestions, I stayed silent. Only then I suggested the problems with those books:

"Many of the posters have recommended books, manufacturers and bulletin boards. If you read the posts on the bulletin boards you will find that wood strips kayaks and canoes built to their recommendations have relative short 'time between repair' records."

I will let you identify when the attacks on me became personal.

----

I gave several examples of boat failures/quality, that should have made you as an engineer rethink the position that the books are worth recommending.

You even looked at my web site. I suppose you saw the table of hull strength, weight, and cost. (For those who have not seen the table wood strip sea kayaks are typicaly 2/3 the strength of glass sea kayaks.)

Despite that you never did say I might be correct or that you would rethink your view.

I get tired of wasting my time ...

----

As far as my business practices: The people on the internet are not my customers. I feel a responsibility to point out that their boats and boat builders can be better. But that is all.

[ 03-19-2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: George Roberts ]

[Keith Wilson]

Despite that you never did say I might be correct or that you would rethink your view.
Sigh . . . George, you're still not listening.

This is what I actually said:

03-17-2003 03:47 PM "You have claimed that some of the sources recommended here advocate designs that are "heavy and weak". This very well may be true; if you can build a 17' 26# boat that will handle class 3 rapids, you obviously know something about the subject"

03-17-2003 11:26 PM "You claim that ALL of them give information that will result in heavy and weak boats. Well, OK, you may very well be right , the conventional wisdom has certainly been wrong before. "

03-18-2003 03:16 PM " Your designs certainly may be as good as you say , and I would certainly be interested in learning more about your construction techniques"

You have made certain claims about your designs and construction methods. Neither your posts nor your website provides enough information for me or anyone else to evaluate these claims objectively. Pardon my skepticism; it's not personal, rather a professional hazard. There are a lot of folks selling snake oil out there. You are of course under no obligation to tell anyone anything, but with all respect, the fact that you say negative things about the way others design boats while providing little or information about your preferred techniques does not inspire confidence. Again, your boats may be everything you say, and if you read my posts carefully, I have never said that you are wrong, just that I don't have enough information to judge. I really think that folks would listen to you more readily if you acted less grumpy.

I’ll speculate a little here (and turn the discussion back toward more pleasant subjects):

There are several things that affect the strength (high work-to-failure with reasonable rigidity is probably what we’re really looking for here) of a fiberglass-wood composite, ignoring Kevlar for the moment. I’ll list the major ones I can think of:

Species and grain orientation of wood
Thickness of wood layer
Type, amount, and weave of fiberglass inside and outside of the hull
Glass strand orientation (chancy, since we’re not always sure where the load is coming from)
Resin characteristics
Amount of resin used

I’m guessing that you’ve found a combination of wood thickness (the strips you sell are considerably thinner than most folks use), glass type and weight, and amount of resin, that gives a better strength-to-weight ratio. In fact, since the resin contributes little to the strength of the composite other than sticking the glass to the wood, low resin/glass ratios would be important. Vacuum bagging with peel-ply or something similar? High-temperature-cure epoxy? Just speculation, however. It still isn’t worth $40 to me to find out, since I’m not going to build a boat where strength-to-weight is that critical, but it’s interesting to think about.

[ 03-19-2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

But Keith, to give that kind of information out, George would actually have to contribute something to the pool, rather than just fart in the water. It would be nice if it happened and would smell better, but his previous posts have shown it to be highly unlikely (though I have seen bits and pieces of it and it is pretty interesting stuff.)

In the mean time George,I'm really surprised that someone who promotes himself as such a great kayak engineer would throw around a term such as "strength" and make unsubstantiated claims that one boat is stronger than another without ever qualifying it or putting it in the context of how it relates to the actual use of the product.

Old Town Canoe, for example occasionally tosses their canoes off the roof of their multi-story factory to demonstrate how "strong" they are. The first was a 17'2"x 37", fairly highly rockered, deep hulled, Royalex boat called the "Tripper". For several years it was their best seller as a whitewater and tripping boat. It didn't break or need repair, so I guess that might indicate that it's a pretty strong boat. On the other hand, the first time I paddled one, the bottom had so much flex that the entire thing oil-canned as soon as the paddlers got into it and rippled up and down about 2" as it was paddled. I called the president of Old Town and compalined that their new super-boat wouldn't even hold it's shape in flat water. His reply was that some people do put a sheet of plywood in the bottom to stiffen them up. My reply was that one 80 lb. canoe and one 20 lb. sheet of plywood make for one 100 lb. canoe! It may have been very hard to puncture, to abrade to death or to tear in half (characteristics that would lead most folks to call it "strong") but it was a lousy canoe!

Another example: For several years, I paddled a Lettmann Olymp Mark V slalom kayak from High Performance Products. It was 13'2""x 24", fiberglass and about 31 lbs. I used it for three or four seasons without a problem or repair (it's the boat that I used to "spear" my buddy's boat) then sold it to a guy in Peoria. He destroyed it in less than a week. Before I sold it, I had ordered myself a new one, same model but built with their "Mithril" construction which was, as I remember, primarily S-glass with transverse carbon fiber ribs about every foot and ethafoam walls supporting the deck, fore and aft. All-up, it weighed about 16 lbs. It was probably the most responsive slalom racing kayak I've ever paddled and a testimony to the value of lightweight construction. Was it strong? Yes and no. I never punched a hole in it, so it was apparently strong enough for my purposes, teaching whitewater kayaking and running rivers, but the average beginner would have trashed it in a matter of minutes.

Claiming that one kayaks construction is stronger than that of another without very carefully defining what kind of strength you're talking about and what the advantages and possible disadvantages of that particular type of strength are is misleading. A light, durable boat is always better than a heavy flimsy one, but it's not that easy. Before you decide what is adequate in terms of scantlings and which constructions are "sub-standard" to the point of bad-mouthing the rest of the industry, you had better figure out how much and what kinds of strength the average paddler is likely to need in his boat - something which you obviously haven't done and a few stories about people who holed their kayaks doesn't do it.

There used to be a joke floating around the canoe industry which is pertinent. I don't know if it really happened, but it certainly could have. A guy who worked laying up boats and who liked to tinker with composites made a new super-duper test panel of his own design. He took it to his boss and said "Look what I've built, it's incredibly strong." He bridged it between a couple of 2x4's and proceeded to mercilessly pound on it with a hammer. It flexed, but didn't break, fracture or delaminate. The guy was beaming. His boss said nothing. He simply took the hammer out of his hand, turned it around and with one fairly mild stroke drove the claw side of the hammer's head right through the panel. The worker's head dropped, he picked up the panel and walked away dejected.

Strength is nowhere as easy to define as you would want people to believe. If your constructions produce kayaks that are lighter and as durable or more durable in the real world than the norm, great. But you certainly haven't shown any good reason why the average builder should abandon Ted Moores' construction methods (for example, which have proven over the years to make adequately durable boats) as sub-standard in favor or your experimental ones.

And where on earth did you come up with this "time between repairs" crap? It's quite possible to punch a hole in any kayak (including your's George) within ten minutes of it's first launching if you hit a sharp enough rock hard enough. That would make your time between repairs about ten minutes. On the other hand, a friend of mine now owns the same 18' Micmac that I talked about hitting a rock with earlier in this thread (serial number 187 from Wilderness Boats Inc., Carlton Oregon, built in 1975, 6 oz. fiberglass inside and out with a double layer over the bottom, inside and out, 3/16" sitka spruce strips and Techniglass 329-2 laminating POLYESTER resin) which I sold it to him about ten years ago.

Other than revarnishing, re-caning the seats and two small slivers of Kevlar felt that I applied to the bottoms of the stems for abrasion protection, the boat has never been repaired, never needed repair and was my primary canoe for about 17 years. I'm sure you would find the boat horribly below your construction standards, yet it's real-life time between repairs is currently 28 years and counting.

I'm certainly not an engineer. I actually was a sculpture major in college which is about as far from engineering as you can get. I have no doubts that you have done some very interesting work with lightweight construction for strippers and from what I've seen you make some nice boats, but most of what you present here is little more than B.S. in a caustic manner intended to intimidate beginners who just want to make a good boat, many of whom approach you quite pleasantly for help and recieve one of yout typical, nasty replies.

Over the years, I've had the opportunity to benefit from the work of several of the people who made major advances in canoe and kayak design and construction and have even gotten to meet and discuss boats with some of them. People like Ralph Sawyer, Howie LaBrandt, Gene Jensen, Harry Roberts, Lew Gillman and Derek Hutchinson have made great contributions to the sport and every one of them that I've talked to was friendly, excited about the sport and willing to do almost anything needed to help others get the most out of it and enjoy it in a competent, safe manner. You, on the other hand, seem to be just a guy who builds a few boats and makes a lot of obnoxious noise, mostly aimed at beginners who simply asked for some guidance and help. What's your contribution to the sport that you seem to spend a great deal of time enjoying? A few boats, some overpriced construction scantlings and proof to interested beginners that some kayak builders are A-holes?

[ 03-19-2003, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[George Roberts]

Keith Wilson ---

I appologized to you because, I wanted to believe that I was wrong about you.

It turns out I was wrong. I wrote:

"I expect that you as an engineer have proof that satisfies you."

That is a key sentence. I PROVE TO ME. YOU PROVE TO YOU. I can not prove anything to you.

Lets consider all sorts of properties of hulls:

failure modes: deflection/length, extreme fiber stress, max energy absorbed

normal loads: at point loads (infinite stress and strain - effective radius computation is required. sort of the claw side of a hammer), near loads (bending of surfaces), far from loads (tensile failure).

tangential loads: abrasion resistance.

cloth layup: You covered it all - orientation of plys, number of plys, and weave.

Now consider those loads and failure modes on kayaks built as well as possible from the directions in those sources and on a 50oz glass hull built as poorly as is reasonable - certainly weaker than any one would consider suitable.

By every measure save one the wood hulls are weaker. You can look up the solutions in most university libraries. I look them up in a composite plate and shell book that I own.

If

Nick Shade's statement of his lack of ability to build a boat that will survive an outing with his brother,

the 6 or so postings of complete distruction, and

the hundreds of posts asking how to do major repairs

don't convince you. Than you are a ....

I am tired of doing your work. You are like so many others just an ass.

[Donn]

Todd and Keith...you really must lighten up on poor old George. He's tired of doing your work for you, so he just comes to the forum to give bad/no advice, but no help.

Here's a great example of George's contribution to the forum:

The case of the 34' carvel planked Pace with broken bow ribs/frames:

http://www.adker.com/ribs_frames.jpg

George Roberts
.
Member # 782

posted 03-12-2003 11:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After seeing the picture, I will change my advice to:

No advice given.

I don't think these ribs/frames are structural. I think they are simply butt blocks run across the planking to hold the planking in line. Since the boat has been adequate in the past, it may be adequate in the future.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Broken Arrow, OK US | IP: Logged

+++++++++

When you consider George's claims of strength for his kayaks (Oh! Please don't forget to enter his kayak strength contest...you could win money!), keep this little nugget in the back of your minds. Remember the 34' Pace, planked with approximately 18" long planks.

[LeeG]

whew,,I haven't paddled any of my s&g boats on moving rivers but have been on the west coast and surf with them. Have used a few in classes and trips. 5yrs ago I made up about three dozen 6"x6" test panels with permutations of 4oz, 6oz, e-glass, s-glass, kevlar, carbon, polyester and various tapes of the above materials. The panels weren't tested in a calibrated setting or was a whole kayak fitted with a Dept. of Hwy dummy but this is what I found out:
If you use less of a particular material the panel will be light. If you use more it'll be heavy. The heavy one takes more effort to break.
There are a lot more details within that earth shattering revelation but the best thing was finding out with ones own muscles how things fail.
Which is what will happen in use anyway.
Oh,,and rocks are tougher.

[LeeG]

oh,, between water and rocks everything breaks.

[Donn]

yep...water covers rocks, rocks break boats.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Rocks do break boats, which brings up something I've always wondered about. Prior to the invention of the Grumman Canoe, and later the fiberglass, Royalex, ABS, polyethylene, Kevlar, wood strip etc. etc. canoes and kayaks that now exist in vast numbers, most whitewater running and wilderness tripping was done in wood and canvas canoes - Boats like Old Town Guides and Chestnut Prospectors and Ogilvies, or even in bark boats. Though these boats will take a pretty good shot and filled canvas is much harder to rip than one might think, they don't have the kind of resistance to impact (without damage that may be quite a task to repair) as many modern constructions.

When I first started paddling, these more modern materials and constructions were still pretty new. At that point, I'm sure that wooden canoes had logged far more wilderness and whitewater miles than the new boats. We were taught "Water Good - Rocks Bad" and paddled that way, knowing that forgetting a simple lesson might make for a long walk in an unhospitable place. By now, things have probably flip-flopped and plastic has the lead in mileage.

What interests me in all this is that somewhere along the way the lesson seems to have changed to "Rocks no big deal - Boat that breaks on rocks, bad or weak boat". Maybe it's all those Extreme-Sport-Mountain Dew commercials that seem to have changed peoples attitudes. I still paddle like the boat's job is to keep water out and my job is to do everything I can to keep rocks from coming through the bottom of the boat. I cringe when I see someone dragging their rotomold across a parking lot by the grab loop, even though I know that it probably won't seriously damage it. It makes me wonder if that same person would find that crooked old pine tree on my favorite point just as disposable and without a thought, hack it down to build a bonfire?

At almost 51, I don't feel all that old and I've only been paddling for a very minor portion of the history of canoes and kayaks but even so, I've seen some good changes take place and some not so good changes. Makes you wonder what's next. Geez, I'm getting long winded like Dingo and starting to philosophize like Ish. At least they're good company.

And yes, I give George a hard time when he deserves it. I learned much of what I know about boats and boating from some good and knowledgable people who were kind enough to answer my questions (even if they were stupid ones), listen to my ideas and give me a basis upon which I could build my skills. I have since learned that following suit and passing that information and what I have learned along to the next generation of paddlers can be quite rewarding. The $2 that I make when WoodenBoat sells a copy of my book is nothing compared to a phone call from someone who owns it and who is excitedly building a sail rig for their canoe.

I have a lot of respect for the work that George is doing and the boats that he builds. If he wants to contribute any of it to the community, I'll be the first to welcome him. If he chooses not to, or feels that it would be giving away his trade secrets and professional work for free or jeopardising his business, I can certainly understand that as well. But, when he chooses to spew a bunch of nasty crap at someone who just asked a simple question and wants help with their boat, I'll be on his case like stink on a dead skunk, just as fast as I can type.

[ 03-19-2003, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[G. Schollmeier]

Sidneyhuskey

Did you find an answer you like? I’ll take Todd’s last response, he said what I felt and didn’t even swear.

Gary :D

[Alexander Shramenko]

Mr. Roberts,

Could I ask your opinion about Lasauskas work on low drag rowing boats?

http://www.maths.adelaide.edu.au/Applied/llazausk/leo.htm,
http://www.maths.adelaide.edu.au/Applied/llazausk/publish.htm,
http://www.maths.adelaide.edu.au/Applied/llazausk/hydro/rowing/
misbond/misbond.htm

It seems to be interesting, but without tank testing data I am in
doubt - with deliberate use of formulas one can prove anything.

In exchange, I will share information about units of energy and power.

You use on website for power requirements units of power "calories/hr"
and numbers will be correct, if it is "thousands of calories per hour".
For thousands of calories engineers use abbreviation "kcal",
dieticians use "Cal".

You should name units of power "kcal/hr" or "Cal/hr", otherwise
it is mistake in 1000 times.

By the way, your data on power requirements calculated or measured?

Regards
Alexander

[Donn]

.

[Wild Dingo]

Originally posted by sidneyhuskey:
I have a few questions and will most likely have several more before this is over. I am considering getting into building kayaks. I have some woodworking and some limited boat building experience. My first question is which would be the best to begin with...a strip built kayak or a plywood? Are the plans sold in the Wooden Boat store just as good as ones sold at say CLC Boats. I have also thought of trying canoes thinking the construction might done much the same way. Does anyone have any thoughts or see flaws in my thinking.CRIPES!! I thought Sydney had asked a rather simple question of us but would yer look at the response he got?!

Sydney... mate for my money follow those who have the experience and willingness to offer their knowledge... and here Im not talking about myself as I profess very little knowledge or experience with the details of either method other than getting the moulds for two wee lassies from Mac McCarthy readied and reading a lot of the information available regarding both ply and stip built canoes and kayaks... Ive spoken to Mac on a quite a few occasions read his book from cover to cover and am a member of many of the boards that Todd refers to albeit a quiet member.

Im talking about Todd who you will find will offer help and assistance wherever possible and wherever within his realm of knowledge without any hessitation or thought of imposition to do so... and an absolute gentleman while hes at it!

The one thing I would say is that many many people have been satisfactorily been building and using canoes and kayaks of both types for many years... and been totally content and happy with the results of their methods and endeavors... A person who denigrates and runs down every suggestion that anyone makes on this thread but offers no assistance or advice when asked such a simple and what should be to him an easily answered question with help and advice as he would appear to have the experience and knowledge to offer... is someone that seems to be unable give constructive advice such as you requested.

At the end of the day... it will come down to you... what you want... what you believe your capable of building... and how you go about that building... asking such questions as you have is the first and best starting step... believe in yourself read as much as you can ask the questions and seek answers then either by the books or buy the plans and begin... after all a large part of the journey is the adventure of getting there. :cool:

And Todd... I shall take that as a compliment!! and I sill like the crab claw and reckon it would be a flamin hoot on a canoe!! :D

[On Vacation]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid26/p6d1a03d7f0bef840e0fc30880e499afb/fd858fd3.jpg

[Wild Dingo]

Thats it Oyster!! :cool: Now wouldnt that be a right royal hoot?? tongue.gif ...only a bit bigger sail are mate I gots me a penchant to... go fast!! :eek: :D and mate that other canoe you got is much nicer!! :cool:

[LisaS]

Sidney -

I've built three kayaks of my own over the past couple of winters, and helped dozens of other people build theirs in classes. We've built S&G, SOF, strippers, and hybrids. You should start building a kayak by making one that you like paddling in AND like the looks of. If the boat isn't pleasing to you in performance or aesthetics, you won't ever use it, and will have wasted a lot of energy and expense. My recommendation would be to start with a hybrid construction, like a Shearwater Merganser, so you can get a feel for those two construction methods in kayaks. All that said, my favorite of my personal three is my Shearwater Atlantic. It's a stripper, and took all winter to build on weekends and ocassional evenings. The performance characteristics work for me, and that's all that matters to me. That it is also aesthetically pleasing to me is a bonus.

Lisa

[LeeG]

mornin' good fellows, I've avoided boats as it was my dad's and brothers territory but through little kayaks I've been floating around a bit lately. Nothing better than being a boat on the water. Must admit that paddling on flat water in a breeze makes that revolutionary idea of a sail look mighty appealing,,,I'll probably advance to the use of rope or cloth next, so far a stick in hands and a boat around my hips is good enough.
...although a 4 cylynder John Deere with a boat wrapped around it looks mighty appealing.

[NormMessinger]

a 4 cylynder John Deere! Wash your mouth out with soap. John Deere stopped making tractors when they stopped making the two cylinder jonnie poppers.

[Keith Wilson]

I am tired of doing your work. You are like so many others just an ass. Well, George, I’ve been called worse, but generally only when I deserved it. Rarely have I met with so much venom for so little cause.

Look, I’m sure that given six months or a year of spare time, several thousand dollars of materials and test equipment, and a certain amount of thought and study, one could do enough research on fiberglass-wood-epoxy composite panels to allow one to build a boat with a very good strength-weight ratio.

However, a large part of engineering is building on the work of others. I design machines that use, among other things, steel, bearings, air cylinders, and electronic sensors. I know only basic metallurgy, I can’t make a ball bearing, I’ve never designed an air cylinder, and I certainly don’t know enough to design an inductive proximity switch. I rely on those who have done the necessary work to do these things for me.

You build kayaks. I’m pretty sure that you don’t make your own fiberglass cloth, or synthesize your own epoxy. Even if you mill your own lumber, you almost certainly didn’t build your own chainsaw or planer. You rely on those who have done the necessary work to do those things for you.

Now, we have to pay for our epoxy, fiberglass, and machine parts. This pays for the work that went into developing them. If you want to sell the results of your research into wood composites for $40, that’s great; I hope you sell a lot.

However, what I (and apparently some others) have trouble with, is your behavior on this forum. This is a place where ideas, some good, some bad, are exchanged freely. People come here because they can get information from knowledgeable people without having to do all the groundwork themselves. This is a good thing, not laziness. Sometimes they get bad advice; sometimes they ignore good advice, but the reason most of us are here is to learn from others who know more than we do, or to help those who know less (or just to BS, but that’s what the bilge is for)

You have criticized many common wood-strip kayak designs as being “heavy and weak”. You have claimed that the way you build boats is better. Now, (please listen carefully) you may very well be right. However, you have provided no information that will allow anyone, no matter how knowledgeable, to tell whether you are right or not, and have seemed to get very irritated when someone points this out or disagrees with you in any way. No, you can’t prove anything to me; I can, if I were willing to take the time, compare a standard strip-planked hull with a fiberglass hull as you describe, but I can't evaluate your preferred techniques because I don't know anything about them. Now, you are under no obligation to tell us anything, but in the absence of this information, please don’t be surprised that people are skeptical.

I think you could make a valuable contribution here if you wanted to. I have found that most people, most of the time, particularly those on this forum, are kind, respectful, and helpful to the best of their ability. If you have had experiences that lead you to believe otherwise, I’m truly sorry.

[ 03-20-2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[George Roberts]

Wild Dingo ---

(I appologize to the members save one and our sponsor for calling a member an ass.)

It always amazes me that when someone disagrees with the "group concensus" that the group turns nasty and blames those who disagree.

In this case I disagreed. And from my point of view the group turned nasty.

Certainly, at some point, as Norm Messinger pointed out, the thread became bilgewater.

You say you know people who have followed the resources given and built good boats. I believe you.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that other builders may have built less than good boats using those resources?

When the resources listed elsewhere provide all of their work for free, I will provide all of my work for free.

[LeeG]

http://dieselmarine.com/index.cfm?EID=00080703

CLACKATACLACKATACLACKATACLAKCATA

[TomRobb]

George, George, George.... It's the tone, the beligerant arrogance, the hubris. It has a tendency to put people off.
You might be the most wonderful PE in the Known Universe, but when you put people off, no one will care.
It continues to amaze me that you don't get it :(

[NormMessinger]

"Certainly, at some point, as Norm Messinger pointed out, the thread became bilgewater."

Um, actually, George I was refering to myself and the contribution I made to your comment about fishing for answers we like. I was in a mood. Even did some one liners in The Bilge. I got a grip now. Mostly.

[brian.cunningham]

well this was a pleasant post to read :rolleyes:

If the originator of the post hasn't been driven off, my advice would be

1) go to a "paddlesports day" this are generally put on by outdoor sports outfitters. Which means you have to listen to some salesman yack, but you get to try out all sorts of boats for FREE It's what got me hooked.

2) Join a club. It will give you someone to paddle with, try never to go out alone. especially as a beginner. They typically hold classes, drowd proofing, eskimo rolls. Some club members might lend you a boat for a paddle. That's how I got a ride in a CLC.

Best of luck!

[Wild Dingo]

Interestingly I was going to respond George by simply stating that many people have built many different types of boats... canoes and kayaks but two of those designs...

But you can also include those who built sailboats motor boats launches dinghys houseboats etc etc from their sole resourse at that time Popular Mechanics MotorBoating Rudder and similar type magazines... designs that well known and respected designers gave for free names such as Atkins, Garden, Mason among others... people built from those plans just as they build from these plans because they were free or the price of the magazine... and some where beauties and others werent and well the less said the better I guess.


Why is it so hard for you to believe that other builders may have built less than good boats using those resourcesGeorge its not hard for anyone to believe that "other builders have built less than good"... not may but have... but George even if you yourself gave or sold someone plans along with a huge clear precise discription and a massive how to book with it on how to build your designs... someone is going to make a mess of it... someone will... that doesnt mean that you or your design or your resources are shoddy but rather that the builder themselves didnt get it... or they didnt follow your instructions as you laid them down... people do that George! and it wouldnt be your fault if they did and the boat failed nor your design it would be theirs... and so it is with the resources stated above.

I was going to respond like that George... but what I said stands... at the end of the day if you have the knowledge and experience that you profess why not share it?... generosity goes a long way in this day and age.

Anyway hopefully Sydneys still reading and considering his options so I will finish by saying... Best of luck with it Sydney :cool:

[LeeG]

for a good story and neat pictures of a crunched strip boat,,to put the stresses in perspective,,go to the Trips site and follow down to: BH pics of Santa Cruz trip

me thinks to get the level of durability necessary to survive dumping surf and rocks will take a 45lb+ boat with more than two layers of 3.25oz fine weave cloth. The boat would also benefit by not having a big person in it as well!.
Then again even with three layers of 4oz s-glass on either side of the wood I bet a 2' dumping wave with a singular waiting rock would still require the proverbial roll of duct tape.

[LeeG]

oops, forgot the link http://www.kayakforum.com/cgi-bin/Trips/index.cgi

[sidneyhuskey]

Just want to say thanks to most all that have posted. Read lots of interesting ideas and thoughts....some I may actually be able to use, others I probably can not afford. Still not sure which method i will try to learn. Guess I need to do some more reading on all methods from several sources. Whichever method I decide on, I'm sure I will have lots of questions and will turn to this forum for advice and guidance. I have long range plans of building a cruising sailboat that hopefully I will be able to sail to the carribean occaionally. If i going to dream, might as well dream big. Oh and just so anyone may want to know I have a ready supply of red cedar and have been offered a good supply of Atlanice white cedar.