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sdowney717
08-24-2010, 06:49 AM
All Muslims Must Make Jihad
http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/jihad/

LeeG
08-24-2010, 07:08 AM
whenever there's confusion about matters of politics, petroleum geology or religion I can count on Sdowney for a link to clarity

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-24-2010, 10:19 AM
Gee, the Es-man has come up with a web address. Wonder of wonders!
Don't forget to use your keyboard, Es-man. The keys get sticky if they sit idle too long.

switters
08-24-2010, 10:23 AM
as an exercise in balance type "all Christians must" into the search engine of choice.

Do you think all Christians really believe in everything on that first page of search results?

I just did the same with "all muslims must" and on the first page I found this

Muslims Against Sharia (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CDEQFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reformislam.org%2F&ei=I-RzTMLPOtjnnQeXo727CQ&usg=AFQjCNE8HpOMBqRj-BGYmJIyYU-Gp3oONg)

All moderate Muslims must repudiate the mere notion of Islamic supremacy. Sharia Sharia Law must be abolished, because it is incompatible with norms of ...
www.reformislam.org/ - Cached (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:C_nNM7ddauEJ:www.reformislam.org/+all+muslims+must&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a) - Similar (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=wiG&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=related:www.reformislam.org/+all+muslims+must&tbo=1&sa=X&ei=I-RzTMLPOtjnnQeXo727CQ&ved=0CDQQHzAI)

Horace
08-24-2010, 10:28 AM
whenever there's confusion about matters of politics, petroleum geology or religion I can count on Sdowney for a link to clarity

Gee, the Es-man has come up with a web address. Wonder of wonders!
Don't forget to use your keyboard, Es-man. The keys get sticky if they sit idle too long.

Wouldn't it be more to the point to link to a reputable, scholarly, and Moslem-approved site that refutes the statements in the OP's link?

sdowney717
08-24-2010, 11:42 AM
not sure what the 'sticky fingers' implies

here is an interesting site to me at least about comparing eschatology type views between muslim and christian

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/index.htm

The writer there makes the obvious points of Islam seeking to dominate the world.
Which is not an irrational view.

Captain Blight
08-24-2010, 11:49 AM
Eschatological arguments are specious at best; it is the purest kind of gedankenexperiment. You know what it is: It's all you God-botherers claiming that YOUR invisible friend can beat up THAT GUY'S invisible friend.

Man, WHO CARES? To those who aren't emotionally invested in it, you might as well be playing G.I. Joes. It's just dumb, and completely negates the graciousness that true faith can bring. C'mon, dude. Co-exist. Evolve.

Y Bar Ranch
08-24-2010, 12:20 PM
Yup... a single web site is ALL we need to figure out the motivations and principles of 1.5 billion Muslims, world-wide....
Did you check to see who the author of the document was? When it was written? Know his history? Try googling on him.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-24-2010, 12:36 PM
Wouldn't it be more to the point to link to a reputable, scholarly, and Moslem-approved site that refutes the statements in the OP's link?

Well, Horace, I'll debate with you are with downey but either of you has to put some skin in the game. Posting a web address is rather simple. And it doesn't guarantee the postor even understands what is said on the web site.
And I am not going to debate anyone who isn't a registered user here. I'm willing to accept links to well know media, corresponents and organizations but incessently posting links from no-name web sites doesn't encourage the exchange of ideas. In fact, I think it is a bad habit that can be attributed to mental laziness.
Rozumis'?

Iceboy
08-24-2010, 12:56 PM
Eschatological arguments are specious at best; it is the purest kind of gedankenexperiment. You know what it is: It's all you God-botherers claiming that YOUR invisible friend can beat up THAT GUY'S invisible friend.

Man, WHO CARES? To those who aren't emotionally invested in it, you might as well be playing G.I. Joes. It's just dumb, and completely negates the graciousness that true faith can bring. C'mon, dude. Co-exist. Evolve.

+1 here. Perfect.

huisjen
08-24-2010, 01:16 PM
http://earthhopenetwork.net/bush_kisses_saudi_king.jpg

Any Questions?

Dan

sdowney717
08-24-2010, 01:56 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_al-Banna

Hassan al-Banna is known to have great impact in the modern Islamic thought

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/243658/taboo-intellectuals-clifford-d-may

A note on the Muslim Brotherhood: It is not a college fraternity. Its founder, Hasan al-Banna, famously said: “It is the nature of Islam to dominate, not to be dominated, to impose its law on all nations and to extend its power to the entire planet.” In 1991, the Muslim Brotherhood’s American leadership prepared an internal memorandum describing its mission as

a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.

http://www.islamtimes.org/vdcd.j0s2yt0jfme6y.html

LeeG
08-24-2010, 02:13 PM
Wouldn't it be more to the point to link to a reputable, scholarly, and Moslem-approved site that refutes the statements in the OP's link?

I have done the same thing with SDowney17 on the issue of abiotic oil with multiple links to fact based sources and he has not once actually discussed the material contained in the links. In other words I've been here before with him. He does not deal with content but let the links speak for him. If you are so inclined to engage Sdowney on a level of content and reasonable argument please be my guest.

sdowney717
08-24-2010, 02:18 PM
Really, now.
There are all sorts of mis perceptions or perhaps deliberate subterfuge, apologetic arguments and prosaic flowery language about 'bigots' bandied about on this forum about Jihad and you still wont believe its ultimate true nature and goals
even when shown in writing, sacred texts, or even physical expressions of violence against nonbelievers.

And then some of you resort to personal insults and name calling

LeeG
08-24-2010, 02:28 PM
Sdowney, what does jihad mean to you? My understanding is that it is a personal struggle by a muslim to do Gods will. Are you Sdowney confused as to what jihad means? With regard to your opening link by Hasan Al Baani a quick reading says he lived in the first half of the last century in Egypt when it was under British rule. Just guessing here that jihad in the social context would mean struggling against colonialism as well. Do you think subjects should not struggle against foreign influences?

perldog007
08-24-2010, 02:31 PM
Yup... a single web site is ALL we need to figure out the motivations and principles of 1.5 billion Muslims, world-wide.... yep, every single one of them believes precisely as that one website advocates! The internet is AMAZING like that, isn't it?

(OR could you possibly be any more clueless?)

You mean like when you took that one incident concerning the religious concert and extrapolated it in your thread title on
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/icons/icon1.gif Complusory Christianity in the Army?

Or any of a hundred zillion other generalisations in your C&P trolls? Are you seriously unable to see your own hypocrisy or are you just trolling that hard?

LeeG
08-24-2010, 02:38 PM
Really, now.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Usage_of_the_term

Horace
08-24-2010, 02:40 PM
http://earthhopenetwork.net/bush_kisses_saudi_king.jpg

Any Questions?

Dan

Yeah. What the heck's your point?

pefjr
08-24-2010, 02:49 PM
You know what it is: It's all you God-botherers claiming that YOUR invisible friend can beat up THAT GUY'S invisible friend.
.Do invisible friends beat each other up? I thought they were the same invisible supernatural that could with a wave of the finger.......... well anyway it's :confused:in. I'm just glad the god is on our side. If I had him on my side last Sunday, I woulda won that tennis game.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-24-2010, 02:50 PM
Really, now.
There are all sorts of mis perceptions or perhaps deliberate subterfuge, apologetic arguments and prosaic flowery language about 'bigots' bandied about on this forum about Jihad and you still wont believe its ultimate true nature and goals
even when shown in writing, sacred texts, or even physical expressions of violence against nonbelievers.

And then some of you resort to personal insults and name calling

We are believers, downey. We believe you can C&P web addresses with the best of them without ever showing the least knowledge of what they contain.
If you are happy with being a web-site librarian rather than a participant then go to it.

Mrleft8
08-24-2010, 02:56 PM
Oh look! An idiot!!!!!! Quick! Someone take a picture!

Y Bar Ranch
08-24-2010, 03:00 PM
Sdowney, what does jihad mean to you?
I think the important question is what does it mean to the people who are hosting his writings on their website? Al Banni is pretty unequivocal about it. It means going out and fighting. His words:


Islam allows jihad and permits war until the following Qur'anic verse is fulfilled: ‘We will we show them Our signs in the universe, and in their ownselves, until it becomes manifest to them that this (the Qur'an) is the truth.’ (Surat al-Fussilat (41), ayah 53)

I was kind of surprised that the Young Muslims organization of Canada was hosting his writings, and not in what looked to be a purely academic manner, but rather as recommended reading. Impressionable minds of young folks could see that stuff and hit the ground running. They appear to follow Qutb's writings also:


Thus, wherever an Islamic community exists which is a concrete example of the Divinely-ordained system of life, it has a God-given right to step forward and take control of the political authority so that it may establish the Divine system on earth, while it leaves the matter of belief to individual conscience.

Provocative stuff for a youth group.

LeeG
08-24-2010, 03:11 PM
hey Ybar, what does the Global War on Terror and the Doctrine of Pre-emptive War mean to you?

Y Bar Ranch
08-24-2010, 03:26 PM
hey Ybar, what does the Global War on Terror and the Doctrine of Pre-emptive War mean to you?

Why do you ask?

LeeG
08-24-2010, 03:35 PM
we are discussing the meaning of jihad as expressed by a fellow from Egypt who's been dead for 60yrs it seems worthwhile to consider the meaning of GWOT and the Doctrine of Pre-emptive War. So far 100,000+ Iraqis and Afghanis have died conflating Al Qaeda with unrelated populations in Iraq and Afghanistan and our standing with 1.5billion Muslims hasn't improved.
Maybe it's worth examining our own ideology and actions. Our energy and fiscal policy failings aren't the result of someone elses jihad, our overextension into foreign military adventures that are reminiscent of an empire in decline isn't the result of someone elses jihad.

Maybe the GWOT and Doctrine of pre-emptive war as writ by chicken hawk neocons like Paul Wolfowitz and David Addington is the wrong jihad.

Y Bar Ranch
08-24-2010, 03:41 PM
we are discussing the meaning of jihad as expressed by a fellow from Egypt who's been dead for 60yrs...
No, it's clear what he means by jihad. The interesting point is the fact that a group of Young Muslims in Canada appear to be following his writings and others that advocate for violent jihad, as opposed to the kinder, gentler sort.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
08-24-2010, 03:50 PM
http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/7/8/633826717793165705-JIHAD.jpg

Horace
08-24-2010, 04:01 PM
Gosh, DMIA, wasn't that nearly 1000 years ago? LeeG's upset about 60.

SamSam
08-24-2010, 04:04 PM
Yeah. Jihad. There's some other things that I wonder about also.

Exodus 35:2 – God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers.
Leviticus 20:13 – God demands the death of homosexuals.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 – God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.

Y Bar Ranch
08-24-2010, 04:14 PM
Yeah. Jihad. There's some other things that I wonder about also.
Both the Bible and the Koran are self-conflicting enough so you can read into it what you want. Want permission to do some wholesale smiting? It's in there.

bobbys
08-24-2010, 04:21 PM
Yeah. Jihad. There's some other things that I wonder about also.

Exodus 35:2 – God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers.
Leviticus 20:13 – God demands the death of homosexuals.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 – God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry..

We are Hebrews in the age of the Law??

Horace
08-24-2010, 04:21 PM
we are discussing the meaning of jihad as expressed by a fellow from Egypt who's been dead for 60yrsWhat difference does 60 years make in the impact of his ideas, if they speak to a current generation?


it seems worthwhile to consider the meaning of GWOT and the Doctrine of Pre-emptive War.What's the relevance, and to what purpose? Most of the proponents of the GWOT weren't around when Hassan al-Banna was writing.


So far 100,000+ Iraqis and Afghanis have died conflating Al Qaeda with unrelated populations in Iraq and Afghanistan and our standing with 1.5billion Muslims hasn't improved. Your syntax leaves something to be desired. Are you asserting that that number have perished by the actions of US/allied military forces?


Maybe it's worth examining our own ideology and actions. Our energy and fiscal policy failings aren't the result of someone elses jihad, our overextension into foreign military adventures that are reminiscent of an empire in decline isn't the result of someone elses jihad.

Maybe the GWOT and Doctrine of pre-emptive war as writ by chicken hawk neocons like Paul Wolfowitz and David Addington is the wrong jihad.
Acts of Moslem terrorism (jihad?) long predate--in our lifetime--the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Horace
08-24-2010, 04:26 PM
Yeah. Jihad. There's some other things that I wonder about also.

Exodus 35:2 – God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers.
Leviticus 20:13 – God demands the death of homosexuals.
Deuteronomy 22:13-21 – God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.


.

We are Hebrews in the age of the Law??

Of course not.

SamSam
08-24-2010, 04:56 PM
.

We are Hebrews in the age of the Law??
Well, if you're teaming up with sdowny to go kill all Muslims, it sounds about the same.
I lean more towards religion itself being the problem.

Horace
08-24-2010, 05:03 PM
Well, if you're teaming up with sdowny to go kill all Muslims, it sounds about the same.
I lean more towards religion itself being the problem.

"[K]ill all Muslims?" Did I miss something? You guys been PMing?

SamSam
08-24-2010, 06:18 PM
"[K]ill all Muslims?" Did I miss something? You guys been PMing?
Yes, you're right. I jumped to conclusions.
“Well then,” you might ask, “If this Satanic/Islamic Empire is going to take over the world and kill multiplied millions of people, then what can we do? It seems so pre-determined, so hopeless.” This chapter addresses God’s primary provision and antidote to all seemingly hopeless situations: Prayer.I didn't realize sdowney was calling us to prayer.

bobbys
08-24-2010, 06:43 PM
Well, if you're teaming up with sdowny to go kill all Muslims, it sounds about the same.
I lean more towards religion itself being the problem..

I might team up with him to knock off disobedient teenagers but not Muslims.

LeeG
08-24-2010, 08:41 PM
No, it's clear what he means by jihad. The interesting point is the fact that a group of Young Muslims in Canada appear to be following his writings and others that advocate for violent jihad, as opposed to the kinder, gentler sort.

are you afraid of these Canadians?

LeeG
08-24-2010, 08:51 PM
Gosh, DMIA, wasn't that nearly 1000 years ago? LeeG's upset about 60.

Horace, I'm not upset about 60yrs. I'm asking which expression of militancy has resulted in wrongful deaths. There were 1000 or so Al Qaeda when we invaded Afghanistan with 45,000 or so Taliban in the AfPak region. Now there are about 36,000 Taliban. Pretty impressive, 1000 becomes 36,000. Ok, and in Iraq there was NO Al Qaeda until we invaded and then it become a training ground for Sunni jihadists who have spread mayhem in Iraq and back to other regions. The American jihad(that neverending military struggle) of academic neocons representing Israeli and interests of US military industrial complex is dragging the US down into a battle we can never win.

LeeG
08-24-2010, 08:54 PM
Your syntax leaves something to be desired.

.

isn't that the truth

PeterSibley
08-24-2010, 09:12 PM
American jihad(that neverending military struggle)

Mind if I borrow that ?

LeeG
08-24-2010, 09:30 PM
Mind if I borrow that ?

here's more:

http://www.amazon.com/New-American-Militarism-Americans-Seduced/dp/0195173384

Andrew Bacevich warns of a dangerous dual obsession that has taken hold of Americans, conservatives and liberals alike. It is a marriage of militarism and utopian ideology--of unprecedented military might wed to a blind faith in the universality of American values. This perilous union, Bacevich argues, commits Americans to a futile enterprise, turning the US into a crusader state with a self-proclaimed mission of driving history to its final destination: the world-wide embrace of the American way of life. This mindset invites endless war and the ever-deepening militarization of US policy. It promises not to perfect but to pervert American ideals and to accelerate the hollowing out of American democracy. As it alienates others, it will leave the United States increasingly isolated. It will end in bankruptcy, moral as well as economic, and in abject failure.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
08-25-2010, 09:54 AM
The Bible says alot of things.
The New Testament reproves the Old Testament.
When Jesus showed up he changed everything.

LeeG
08-25-2010, 10:35 AM
I wonder why God put all that oil under Islamic tribes that don't get along with each other?