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J P
08-23-2010, 05:32 PM
This has been a fun little project. New timber (and steel) frame cut from fire killed standing dead inland Douglas-fir, wrapped with an ~1880's hand hewn Montana hay barn. New purpose will be shop area and storage for boats and such. Every guy should have one of these, I know I want one.

The frame sans ridge and rafters:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/0904-01.jpg

Starting the log "siding".
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/0904-02.jpg

The original bottom course of logs were rotten and not usable, and a few other sections had to be repaired, but in general it is in pretty good shape.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/0904-04.jpg


Compound dovetail corners. Quite satisfying to fit these old joints back together while contemplating the old ways and pioneer life.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/0904-05.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/0904-06.jpg

J P
08-23-2010, 05:45 PM
A few pieces had some twist to deal with. The top one here was the worst at about 45 degrees.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/0904-07.jpg

Coaxing it into place.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/0904-08.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/0904-10.jpg

Looking at photos of the original barn we could see a board nailed over the larger space between the logs at the top right. Speculating that the builder made an elevation correction there for the hay loft floor.

McMike
08-23-2010, 05:47 PM
Very cool!!! Keep the pics comming!

Paul Pless
08-23-2010, 05:51 PM
Every guy should have one of theseIndeed!

JayInOz
08-23-2010, 06:09 PM
Great job! More pictures please :) I used to square a lot of timber using broad axes, but it was all extremely hard Aussie eucalypt species. I envy your countrymen the stuff they had to play with! Wonder how many arrow shafts I could get from that much doug fir? :D JayInOz

J P
08-23-2010, 06:14 PM
I really like the simple, honest use of materials in this one. I convinced the owner to not wrap the steel beams with wood and just go with it.




http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y279/picsonline/0904-11.jpg


Nice spot on the end of a big oxbow of the Missouri river which you can just see through trees. Place is teaming with wildlife. The choke cherries are ripe and the birds are all over them. Lots of cedar waxwings and a couple of different yellow flavored ones that I haven't identified yet.

Roof work this week.

botebum
08-23-2010, 06:28 PM
Very nice but I'd like to have seen it done without all the metal (beams, fasteners, etc.) There's ways around those long unsupported spans without the I-beams. Any particular reason you went that route?
Doug

gert
08-23-2010, 06:32 PM
Too cool and beatiful.

Good on you for not hiding the steel; steel is an honest construction material.

Up here we call them "Norwegian dovetails".

J P
08-23-2010, 06:32 PM
Great job! More pictures please :) I used to square a lot of timber using broad axes, but it was all extremely hard Aussie eucalypt species. I envy your countrymen the stuff they had to play with! Wonder how many arrow shafts I could get from that much doug fir? :D JayInOz

Thanks Jay. I have only done a little bit of broad axe work and its, well ... work! Someone once gave me some dry eucalyptus rounds for fire wood and I couldn't split them. I'll pass next time. The hewn material in this one is very dense lodgepole pine and it's amazing how sound it is under that weathered patina (thanks to a dry climate).

Arrows, eh? We're keeping an eye out for arrow heads stuck in the logs. Wish I could give you some of our scrap DF. What do you look for in good DF arrow stock?

Glen Longino
08-23-2010, 06:50 PM
Beautiful building and location!
Since it's a storage building/shop, I don't mind the steel beams.
If it were a house that would be different.
I didn't know anybody made arrows from DF. I thought only cedar.
Looking forward to more pics.

bobbys
08-23-2010, 06:56 PM
Nice, My friend has a ceder shake with a Arrow in it, We cut Bolts and he found it in the middle of a old log, Always think about a Indian losing his Arrow .

J P
08-23-2010, 07:14 PM
Very nice but I'd like to have seen it done without all the metal (beams, fasteners, etc.) There's ways around those long unsupported spans without the I-beams. Any particular reason you went that route?
Doug

Compromises. Simplicity and budget were factors. Steel can be cost effective. With roof and floor loads the timbers for that simple span would have to be quite large (and costly). Didn't have the budget for massive reclaimed (dry) or RFKD timber and shrinkage would be an issue with anything else. Some kind of truss didn't really fit the program. Lower level headroom and the height of the barn walls were design criteria to work around as well. There was an architect and engineer involved early on and the budget ball got rolling and it wasn't going to roll up hill.

As a timber framer I would love to have done it all in wood but in this market I'd go hungry being a "purist". And I can't help but think that if the old timers had a couple steel wide flange beams around they'd a used 'em. They'd just have to beef up the gin pole a bit. Besides an overhead trolley hoist is a handy thing in a shop/barn.

katey
08-23-2010, 08:37 PM
Oooooohhhhh. Gorgeous!

Paul Girouard
08-23-2010, 08:55 PM
Nice work! The budgets always a factor, and you're right IF the old boys would have had steel, and it was cost effective, they'd have used it. And on top of that they'd never have re-used the old logs , they'd have cut new ones. Those old logs have to be as hard as the knobbs, and cutting those dovetails and reworking openings with hand tools, they'd have wanted green logs to work with. Unless there was nothing else to use, they'd have used new logs I'd think. Good on ya for saving some of the old stuff!

Looking forward to the roof details! Any dormers, eye-brows , or other "trick" stuff?

WX
08-23-2010, 08:59 PM
A shed to be proud of, very nice.

Larks
08-23-2010, 09:17 PM
Terrific looking building mate, nice to see the timber all being reused. What is the skirt around the inside base that has been clad with stone? It looks quite heavy steel, is it just form-work to lay the stone to or will it stay in place?

JayInOz
08-23-2010, 09:43 PM
J.P. Aussie hardwoods vary greatly in quality, but where I live just about everything is great firewood if not great building material:) I've cut wood that burned so hot it sagged and buckled the cast iron grate in a stove. Some wood works easier but cracks or twists badly or is devoured by termites in no time- a big problem here. I've lost five boxes of books and photographs to termites this year, as well as having a lot of lumber ruined. Whatever the job, we have something to suit. I sold a farm recently with a lot of timber on it- more than a hundred acres in one stand- and there was only one species of wood which would float when dry- it's fairly dense stuff.
As for arrows, really old douglas fir is usually far better than the stuff available these days. It needs to be straight, knot free and close grained. My next door neighbour has been cleaning out his late fathers' farm house ready for sale, and only yesterday brought me an old wire bed base framed in really close grained fir- I'll get probably 120 arrows from it. I knap all my points, and much of the stone I work is sent to me by knappers in America. I often try to match the style of arrow with the appropriate material. Different Native American tribes knapped particular styles of point from material in their area- I like the idea of archaeologists in a couple of thousand years finding some of my lost arrowheads, and deducing that Australia had indeed been visited by an Apache war party:) JayInOz

botebum
08-23-2010, 10:00 PM
Compromises. Simplicity and budget ...All your points are valid and completely understood. I really like the reclaimed timber approach. Sometimes that, in itself, can be a budget buster. The "But it's used!" arguement falls on deaf ears.

Doug

J P
08-23-2010, 10:46 PM
Nice work! The budgets always a factor, and you're right IF the old boys would have had steel, and it was cost effective, they'd have used it. And on top of that they'd never have re-used the old logs , they'd have cut new ones. Those old logs have to be as hard as the knobbs, and cutting those dovetails and reworking openings with hand tools, they'd have wanted green logs to work with. Unless there was nothing else to use, they'd have used new logs I'd think. Good on ya for saving some of the old stuff!

Looking forward to the roof details! Any dormers, eye-brows , or other "trick" stuff?

You're right, the old wood is hard. And brittle. This pine isn't too bad compared to some of the old reclaimed stuff we work with and I imagine it was quite pleasant to work green. I've seen old timber frames, both early American and European (really old), where some of the timbers were obviously recycled from another building. This barn has a few odd notches that make me wonder if they didn't recycle a few logs from another building. They are in the left side of the opening in pic 4, post 1.

The roof details are pretty straight forward; 3x8 common rafters fastened with construction screws. No dormers, although the original did have one which was kind of unusual for a Montana pioneer hay barn. I'd like to see a functioning cupola or two but that's not in the current scope. There will be a little shed roof/eyebrow over the large front door. The "trick" is going to be the eave blocking. Pity the chinker man.

J P
08-23-2010, 10:48 PM
Terrific looking building mate, nice to see the timber all being reused. What is the skirt around the inside base that has been clad with stone? It looks quite heavy steel, is it just form-work to lay the stone to or will it stay in place?

Larks, that's just a concrete stem wall that has been dyed.

Larks
08-23-2010, 11:15 PM
Larks, that's just a concrete stem wall that has been dyed.

very tricky!!

J P
08-23-2010, 11:15 PM
J.P. Aussie hardwoods vary greatly in quality, but where I live just about everything is great firewood if not great building material:) I've cut wood that burned so hot it sagged and buckled the cast iron grate in a stove. Some wood works easier but cracks or twists badly or is devoured by termites in no time- a big problem here. I've lost five boxes of books and photographs to termites this year, as well as having a lot of lumber ruined. Whatever the job, we have something to suit. I sold a farm recently with a lot of timber on it- more than a hundred acres in one stand- and there was only one species of wood which would float when dry- it's fairly dense stuff.
As for arrows, really old douglas fir is usually far better than the stuff available these days. It needs to be straight, knot free and close grained. My next door neighbour has been cleaning out his late fathers' farm house ready for sale, and only yesterday brought me an old wire bed base framed in really close grained fir- I'll get probably 120 arrows from it. I knap all my points, and much of the stone I work is sent to me by knappers in America. I often try to match the style of arrow with the appropriate material. Different Native American tribes knapped particular styles of point from material in their area-

We don't have much for sizable native hardwoods here in Montana so that's the stuff I look for and hoard. Covet thy neighbor's wood pile.

I have a chunk of pure black obsidian from Modoc country that's about the size of a football. It broke off a piece that was about the size of a big pig. Are you a bowyer as well Jay?


I like the idea of archaeologists in a couple of thousand years finding some of my lost arrowheads, and deducing that Australia had indeed been visited by an Apache war party:) JayInOz

:D Y>

J P
08-23-2010, 11:29 PM
All your points are valid and completely understood. I really like the reclaimed timber approach. Sometimes that, in itself, can be a budget buster. The "But it's used!" arguement falls on deaf ears.

Doug

I remember when you could pick up these old buildings and reclaimed timber for nothing, or just for clean up and removal costs. Different story these days. I've talked with ranchers out in East Bum Cluck Nowheresville and the word is out; they have a 'gold mine' in their little POS dilapidated rotten shack out in the back 40. Demand and supply at work.

bobbys
08-24-2010, 12:12 AM
J.P. Aussie hardwoods vary greatly in quality, but where I live just about everything is great firewood if not great building material:) I've cut wood that burned so hot it sagged and buckled the cast iron grate in a stove. Some wood works easier but cracks or twists badly or is devoured by termites in no time- a big problem here. I've lost five boxes of books and photographs to termites this year, as well as having a lot of lumber ruined. Whatever the job, we have something to suit. I sold a farm recently with a lot of timber on it- more than a hundred acres in one stand- and there was only one species of wood which would float when dry- it's fairly dense stuff.
As for arrows, really old douglas fir is usually far better than the stuff available these days. It needs to be straight, knot free and close grained. My next door neighbour has been cleaning out his late fathers' farm house ready for sale, and only yesterday brought me an old wire bed base framed in really close grained fir- I'll get probably 120 arrows from it. I knap all my points, and much of the stone I work is sent to me by knappers in America. I often try to match the style of arrow with the appropriate material. Different Native American tribes knapped particular styles of point from material in their area- I like the idea of archaeologists in a couple of thousand years finding some of my lost arrowheads, and deducing that Australia had indeed been visited by an Apache war party:) JayInOz.

I have some Obsidian and went to Eastern Oregon looking for the good stuff while hunting but did not have enough time, While hunting i found spots where the Indians Knapped . One could almost tell where they were sitting while doing it and the reject arrowheads. While hunting im looking at the ground all the time

JayInOz
08-24-2010, 03:53 AM
[QUOTE=J P;2694979]We don't have much for sizable native hardwoods here in Montana so that's the stuff I look for and hoard. Covet thy neighbor's wood pile.

I have a chunk of pure black obsidian from Modoc country that's about the size of a football. It broke off a piece that was about the size of a big pig. Are you a bowyer as well Jay?

I've made a couple of recurves and a few sinew backed flat bows. Will do more in a few years when I catch up on everything else:) My favourite bow at the moment is a slightly reflex/deflex longbow called the Sierra, made by Texas bowyer Bob Sarrells- absolutely the sweetest bow I've ever had in my hands- lightweight, quiet, fast and no hand shock and puts the arrow where you expect to hit. Mine's choctacote-red heart- with a bamboo core. http://www.sarrelsarchery.com/

If you want to sell that chunk of volcanic black glass, let me know:) JayInOz

JayInOz
08-24-2010, 04:39 AM
.

I have some Obsidian and went to Eastern Oregon looking for the good stuff while hunting but did not have enough time, While hunting i found spots where the Indians Knapped . One could almost tell where they were sitting while doing it and the reject arrowheads. While hunting im looking at the ground all the time

Bobbys I guess you were hoping to get to Glass Buttes? The amount of obsidian there- in many colours- is staggering. Mecca for flintknappers:) Some of the old American knappers have told me of sitting on a rock with their feet in exactly the same position as those long dead Native American knappers, working the same stone with exactly the same method. Some of the archaeologists can tell you a lot about the points being made from those debitage piles- even able to recognise work by a particular knapper. I have some American points that are several hundred years old- one day I'll rework a couple and take them hunting.
Several years ago I mentioned to an American archaeologist that I had a piece of flint which was worked in a cave in France by a knapper ten thousand years ago. He replied that he had a piece of flint which had been worked almost a million years ago- by a different species! It's the longest continuously practiced craft on earth. JayInOz

skuthorp
08-24-2010, 08:09 AM
Re barn renovations, this site was of use to us in turning a shell int a home.
http://www.barnrenovation.com/index.html

Mrleft8
08-24-2010, 08:18 AM
Curious construction method. Looks interesting.

skuthorp
08-24-2010, 08:25 AM
Post and beam, a lot of owner builders use it here. They get an engineered load bearing frame and fill it in themselves. A feller I worked with did one with Blue Gum trunks and Oregon trusses out of a 100 year old wharehouse.

Paul Pless
08-24-2010, 08:41 AM
Sku, maybe a thread on your new home would be cool when you get a chance. . .

Mrleft8
08-24-2010, 08:46 AM
Post and beam I'm very familliar with (Built several barns and houses P&B), it's the wrapping the P&B with logs that I've never seen before.

skuthorp
08-24-2010, 08:57 AM
Our house was a pre-built portable that was poorly located and just a lock up shell when we bought the place. I listened to reason, found a registered builder and that was avery good decision. I won't hijack the thread with the detail but suffice to say that many permit and approvals issued were very dodgy. Startin new we would have built something different but we got the 'house' and a 60x24ft concrete floored metal lock up shed with power virtually free.
In england you can buy a medieval barn and renovate the inside as long as you obey English Heritage rules re the exterior.
http://www.barnsetc.co.uk/barns-for-sale-South-England.htm