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Nicholas Scheuer
08-13-2010, 06:42 PM
So say business analyists and business CEO's.

At the same time they can't seem to figure out why "consumer demand" is so weak. Did these numb-nutted individals (what do we call their female counterpart?) ever hear anything about Cause & Effect in their MBA courses?

Moby Nick

paul oman
08-13-2010, 07:07 PM
jobs will return when these business and CEO are more comfortable with what the future holds for them (too bad for recent/soon college grads!). That will take a change of administration. Even if Obama did a 180 on business policy no CEO would trust it. Hold on to your unemployment until maybe nov, but more likely 2012. Hey, you guys voted for him!

BrianW
08-13-2010, 07:59 PM
So say business analyists and business CEO's.

At the same time they can't seem to figure out why "consumer demand" is so weak.

Perhaps everyone, including employers, are waiting to see how much mandatory health care is going to cost them.

Milo Christensen
08-13-2010, 08:04 PM
Plenty of new jobs coming just filing the millions upon millions upon millions of 1099's the health monstrosity will force businesses to file and the IRS has to process.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-13-2010, 08:23 PM
That's it? Unemployment will stay high because CEOs are uncomfortable. We wouldn't want that would we?
You aren't portraying businessmen in a very heroic light.

john l
08-13-2010, 08:26 PM
man, you guys are praying that he fails. i remember when bush was spending money like a drunken
sailor the opposing viewpoint was "i hope he's right."
certainly the situation is tough out there, but a large part of the situation is paying for the "Voodoo Economics"
started way back under Reagan and coined such by Bush senior. I'm sure he and his pals said, heck this guy
is getting the attention so we better play along. Now many republican folks still believe in Voodoo. Voodoo this
and voodoo that and voodoo obama too. get real, we're paying for the bad decisions of the past 30 years - why the
hell go back to the thinking that got us here!

Peter Malcolm Jardine
08-13-2010, 09:56 PM
Funny, the USA is in deep deep doo doo, and everyone is still pointing fingers and hoping the black guy fails. Weirder and weirder.

Garret
08-13-2010, 10:22 PM
Funny, the USA is in deep deep doo doo, and everyone is still pointing fingers and hoping the black guy fails. Weirder and weirder.

More like sicker & sicker. Problem for you Canadians is that we may well drag you down with us.

At least you'll be polite about it though...;-)

seanz
08-13-2010, 10:51 PM
Which jobs? The ones that have just been lost in The Great Adjustment? Or the ones that were exported?

elf
08-13-2010, 11:00 PM
both.

Gerarddm
08-14-2010, 01:26 AM
<sigh> *companies, *appliances, *our, *outsource

I love the Republicans who ask "where are the jobs"? when they have done E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G to to stifle any attempt by the Feds to stimulate the economy to get it back going. If they believe in free markets so bloody much, then they'd better stop asking Obama and start asking their CEO pals.

sdowney717
08-14-2010, 11:59 AM
Funny, the USA is in deep deep doo doo, and everyone is still pointing fingers and hoping the black guy fails. Weirder and weirder.

Not weird in fact normal for politicians to hope the other guy fails so they can win.
Both sides do the same thing. And talk about the failed policies of the current and predecessor political foes.

For example, I hear it all the time, the failed policies of the Bush administration from the current administration. It is standard operating procedure, you just have to be keen enough to see through all the subterfuge out there. Who knows what lurks in the heart of the voter.

Bruce Hooke
08-14-2010, 12:14 PM
We can get the jobs back.Shut our borders,finance all the American companies to manufacture all our goods,from dish cloths,to appliances(they stole all or ideas)Never happen.OUTSOURSE is our name...Free trade is our game :(

Sure, shut our borders and bring the jobs back home, except for all the jobs that depend on exports because if we shut out imports everyone else we might like to export to will shut out our exports. A real trade war like that would make our current economy look like dream days for American workers.

Milo Christensen
08-14-2010, 12:15 PM
An op-ed by Krugman (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/02/opinion/02krugman.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss)I can't disagree with, as much as I'd like to hope that Congress will get behind true job creation measures.



What lies down this path? Here’s what I consider all too likely: Two years from now unemployment will still be extremely high, quite possibly higher than it is now. But instead of taking responsibility for fixing the situation, politicians and Fed officials alike will declare that high unemployment is structural, beyond their control. And as I said, over time these excuses may turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy, as the long-term unemployed lose their skills and their connections with the work force, and become unemployable.
I’d like to imagine that public outrage will prevent this outcome. But while Americans are indeed angry, their anger is unfocused. And so I worry that our governing elite, which just isn’t all that into the unemployed, will allow the jobs slump to go on and on and on.

elf
08-14-2010, 12:43 PM
But Milo, don't you understand. Paul's wrong because he opposes the essence of human society.

Indeed, our Declaration of Independence codifies it.

"Pursuit of happiness", i.e. if some is good, more is always better.

LeeG
08-14-2010, 12:49 PM
how are the jobs in the military/gov't industrial complex doing?

http://robertreich.org/


If we didn’t have this giant military jobs program, the U.S. unemployment rate would be over 11.5 percent today instead of 9.5 percent.

And without our military jobs program personal incomes would be dropping faster. The Commerce Department reported Monday the only major metro areas where both net earnings and personal incomes rose last year were San Antonio, Texas, Virginia Beach, Virginia, and Washington, D.C. — because all three have high concentrations of military and federal jobs.

Pugwash
08-14-2010, 01:10 PM
There are "jobs" out there, but the trend is rather disturbing. I'm not talking about minimum wage employment.

I keep seeing ads on Craiglist which run along the lines of "Wanted: experienced roofer with verifiable references for two weeks work, paying $300 per week. No slackers, must have own tools."

(real ad, paraphrased, not the exact words but the salient points are correct, I wish I'd capped the ad as I'm not sure anyone will believe me)

The black economy is going to flourish & it's going to horribly exploitative. Nobody is going to benefit from it. Unless you have the money and the mentality to be happy raping the desperate.

ljb5
08-14-2010, 01:17 PM
jobs will return when these business and CEO are more comfortable with what the future holds for them.

How strange to think that CEOs would hire anyone for any reason other than to complete the work required to fulfill customer orders.

elf
08-14-2010, 02:55 PM
How strange to think that CEOs would hire anyone for any reason other than to complete the work required to fulfill customer orders.

Neo-cons and libertarians are strange.

bobbys
08-14-2010, 03:11 PM
There are "jobs" out there, but the trend is rather disturbing. I'm not talking about minimum wage employment.

I keep seeing ads on Craiglist which run along the lines of "Wanted: experienced roofer with verifiable references for two weeks work, paying $300 per week. No slackers, must have own tools."

(real ad, paraphrased, not the exact words but the salient points are correct, I wish I'd capped the ad as I'm not sure anyone will believe me)

The black economy is going to flourish & it's going to horribly exploitative. Nobody is going to benefit from it. Unless you have the money and the mentality to be happy raping the desperate..

I bid roof jobs and made less then that..........

Pugwash
08-14-2010, 03:18 PM
.

I bid roof jobs and made less then that..........

Not more than once, I hope.

John Smith
08-14-2010, 07:17 PM
Which jobs? The ones that have just been lost in The Great Adjustment? Or the ones that were exported?

I don't remember what show I was watching, so I'm not looking for a link, but there was a guy on the other day who owns a restaurant.

He's come to the decision that his tax rate and his health care costs are not his primary problem. His biggest problem is customer shortage. Out of work people don't eat out so much. It is to his benefit that more people find good jobs, and to his detriment that they don't. Fewer customers, means he lays off, and more people are out of work.

This isn't rocket science.. Our economy is based on middle class consumption. Middle class needs the financial ability to consume.

John Smith
08-14-2010, 07:18 PM
<sigh> *companies, *appliances, *our, *outsource

I love the Republicans who ask "where are the jobs"? when they have done E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G to to stifle any attempt by the Feds to stimulate the economy to get it back going. If they believe in free markets so bloody much, then they'd better stop asking Obama and start asking their CEO pals.

I really like it when they tell us we've got to extend the Bush tax cuts for the top two percent, as that's how jobs are created. It's worked so well over the past ten years.

seanz
08-14-2010, 07:22 PM
Our economy is based on middle class consumption.


That's so very wrong but you're probably right.......

Pugwash
08-14-2010, 07:43 PM
Define Middle Class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_middle_class).

I think the people we are really talking about is the lower Middle, if you agree with the wiki.

Mike Tremor
08-25-2010, 10:30 AM
So say business analyists and business CEO's.

At the same time they can't seem to figure out why "consumer demand" is so weak. Did these numb-nutted individals (what do we call their female counterpart?) ever hear anything about Cause & Effect in their MBA courses?

Moby Nick


So, please tell us how many people YOU are hiring since you're so much smarter than they are?

ahp
08-26-2010, 02:23 PM
Perhaps the best economic system is to pay the highly skilled and productive very well, and pay the rest just enough to stay out of the way and stay out of trouble.

Nicholas Scheuer
08-26-2010, 03:25 PM
Well, counting just this summer, we've HIRED a new roofing job, we've HIRED some gardening, we're in-process of HIRING new windows for the second story, we're HIRING somebody to clean the mini-blinds throught the house, and we're about to HIRE a friend to set up a new computer and change oer all the files from the old one.

We're retired.

So PLEASE tell us how many people YOU have HIRED recently, Mike?

Moby Nick

Nicholas Carey
08-27-2010, 02:00 AM
how are the jobs in the military/gov't industrial complex doing?

http://robertreich.org/

If we didn’t have this giant military jobs program, the U.S. unemployment rate would be over 11.5 percent today instead of 9.5 percent.If we actually computed the unemployment rate properly (which the BLS does...they just choose not to use it.) The official unemployment rate is the BLS U-3 metric, which is the total number of unemployed persons as a percentage of the labor force. for U-3, "unemployed" means:
Persons aged 16 years and older who had no employment during the reference week, were available for work, except for temporary illness, and had made specific efforts to find employment sometime during the 4-week period ending with the reference week. Persons who were waiting to be recalled to a job from which they had been laid off need not have been looking for work to be classified as unemployed.The U-6 metric consists of the count of people any of the following categories:


the unemployed, which see the above definition.
all persons marginally attached to the labor force. Defined as:
Persons not in the labor force who want and are available for work, and who have looked for a job sometime in the prior 12 months (or since the end of their last job if they held one within the past 12 months), but were not counted as unemployed because they had not searched for work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey. Discouraged workers are a subset of the marginally attached.

[Discouraged workers are defined as:
Persons not in the labor force who want and are available for a job and who have looked for work sometime in the past 12 months (or since the end of their last job if they held one within the past 12 months), but who are not currently looking because they believe there are no jobs available or there are none for which they would qualify.]
all persons employed part time for economic reasons. Pretty much self-explanatory. Would you like fries with that?

To get the U-6 unemployement percentage is obtained by dividing that count into the the total of the labor force size ("all persons classified as employed or unemployed in accordance with the definitions contained in this glossary"), plus the count of those marginally attached to the labor force.

U-6, as of July 2010, stands at 16.5 percent (seasonally adjusted). Include the military jobs program and you're staring at nigh-on 20 percent unemployment.

U-3, as of the same date, stands at 9.5 percent.

The delta between U-3 and U-6 is currently at 7.0 percent. In January 2000, prior to Bush II and the GOP beginning their "heckuva job" on the economy, the delta stood at 3.1 percent, with U-3 at 4.0 percent and U-6 at 7.1 percent. That delta has been steadily increasing ever since.

[Edited to note that U-6 still under counts the unemployed. It fails to include several classes of people. For instance, people working straight commission sales jobs, though they likely are taking in little income and those who one might class as "reluctant entrepeneurs" -- who are now putatively "consulting/freelancing" to try and get some income -- are counted as employed.]

skuthorp
08-27-2010, 03:03 AM
I don't know how it was in the US, but after the 30's depression the jobs didn't come back untill WW2 soaked up the unemployed. If your job figures are spun like ours, the actual figure can be as much as 4 times the official one.

Nicholas Scheuer
08-27-2010, 06:40 AM
Forgot to include the big'ol Pear tree that we hired a crew to remove, including the stump.

It's called "COMMUNITY". We live comfortably on just as much income as we hever had (not quite, but almost) so we're having a lot of things done by people who desperately need the work, instead of trying to cram 10 gallons of projects into 1-gallons of time doing it all ourselves (except the roof and window).

Moby Nick

PeterSibley
08-27-2010, 07:05 AM
Every time you buy something you ''hire '' someone .

Mike Tremor
08-27-2010, 05:08 PM
Well, counting just this summer, we've HIRED a new roofing job, we've HIRED some gardening, we're in-process of HIRING new windows for the second story, we're HIRING somebody to clean the mini-blinds throught the house, and we're about to HIRE a friend to set up a new computer and change oer all the files from the old one.

We're retired.

So PLEASE tell us how many people YOU have HIRED recently, Mike?

Moby Nick

Just one I'm afraid. He'll be starting work on Sept 1. But I have enough work for 3 or 4 additional employees too. I just can't bring myself to hire that many though. The health care debacle that the Democrats have passed makes it all but impossible for me to tell what new employees could end up costing me. And with all their other "reforms" there's too much uncertainty in the economy to make the long term commitment to employ that many additional people.

Are you saying you now have people on your payroll as employees to do odd jobs around your house, or are you just giving a nonsense answer to my question? You don't strike me as someone who's ever run a business and had to make a payroll. Maybe you could tell us what you're retired from.

Mike Tremor
08-27-2010, 05:12 PM
Forgot to include the big'ol Pear tree that we hired a crew to remove, including the stump.

It's called "COMMUNITY". We live comfortably on just as much income as we hever had (not quite, but almost) so we're having a lot of things done by people who desperately need the work, instead of trying to cram 10 gallons of projects into 1-gallons of time doing it all ourselves (except the roof and window).

Moby Nick

Another nonsense answer. What do you think about Obama's promise that if his pork laden "Stimulus" was passed that unemployment would never go above 8%? Does that make him a liar, or just incompetent? Even Barney Frank is calling him dumb for that one. Did you hiring a handyman to do your chores reduce the unemployment figure?

Glen Longino
08-27-2010, 05:33 PM
Just one I'm afraid. He'll be starting work on Sept 1. But I have enough work for 3 or 4 additional employees too. I just can't bring myself to hire that many though. The health care debacle that the Democrats have passed makes it all but impossible for me to tell what new employees could end up costing me. And with all their other "reforms" there's too much uncertainty in the economy to make the long term commitment to employ that many additional people.

Are you saying you now have people on your payroll as employees to do odd jobs around your house, or are you just giving a nonsense answer to my question? You don't strike me as someone who's ever run a business and had to make a payroll. Maybe you could tell us what you're retired from.

And you call me abrasive!

"But I have enough work for three or four additional employees..."
Well, for godsake hire them...they will make you more money!

..."there's too much uncertainty in the economy to make the long term commitment to employ that many additional people."
Your story sounds anecdotal and contrived.
What long term commitment? You don't have to hire people for life you know!
If you have lots of work, but you're too fearful and cowardly to hire people to do the work, then you don't need to be in business.
It doesn't make you look smart to blame your own cowardice on Democrats.

Mike Tremor
08-27-2010, 09:00 PM
And you call me abrasive!

"But I have enough work for three or four additional employees..."
Well, for godsake hire them...they will make you more money!

..."there's too much uncertainty in the economy to make the long term commitment to employ that many additional people."
Your story sounds anecdotal and contrived.
What long term commitment? You don't have to hire people for life you know!
If you have lots of work, but you're too fearful and cowardly to hire people to do the work, then you don't need to be in business.
It doesn't make you look smart to blame your own cowardice on Democrats.

Thanks for the brilliant advice. Are you a consultant or something? As smart as you are people should be paying you to tell them how to run their businesses.

leikec
08-27-2010, 09:09 PM
And Black Jack reappears....

Jeff C

Glen Longino
08-27-2010, 09:19 PM
Heheh!
He does have that look about him.....and that whiiiiiiny sound!;)
Funny thing, he comes in here whining that the Democrats have ruined his itty bitty world, so I try to console him and point him in the right direction and all I get is abrasive abuse.
What an ingrate!:D

Captain Blight
08-27-2010, 09:24 PM
Maybe-- and I'm just spitballin' here-- maybe he's just a lousy businessman. The American landscape is littered with people who are really good at a task but really bad at making money off it.

Nicholas Scheuer
08-27-2010, 09:45 PM
Let mw explain more clearly, as you seem more and more like one of those business owners who don''t have a clue about where to find toilet paper after you deficate.

We BUY windows. But when it comes to INSTALLATION, we may HIRE the seller's installers, or we may HIRE a third party to install them, or we may DO IT OURSELVES (DIY they call it). In this case DIY is not part of the program, in spite of the fact tha I an emminently qualified to insatall windows (glass windows, not software windows).

So yes, we "HIRE" windows.

Are we clear, Mike?

Moby Nick

Michael D. Storey
08-27-2010, 10:04 PM
So here's how it is.
I have had enough of this compare this recession to the depression of the 30's crap. That mess went on for over a decade. It did not start in September of 1929; things had gone down the drain for anyone with a real job two years before. That's how it is. Three years ago we were ( I mean people of our times, not you and I) overpaying for overpriced real estate with hopes of refi-ing in a year so that we could pull out 'equity' and buy a BMW. Back in the 30's, people starved to death. Now they are stuck in a house because they can't get their price. Seen many bread lines? Soup Lines? Guys sellin apples in the street?
Sure a lotta guys don't have jobs these days. A lot have lost their houses. True fax. These are not easy times, but we are not runnin naked in the streets, beggin for soup, in the immortal words of George Jefferson.
So I say, Grow an appendage that you can be proud of. Stop whining. Stop makin like you know what the future will bring. It does not make you look smart, to use words like 'never', or 'can't'.
About jobs that are not coming back: I have an attention dysfunction and a sometimes less than desirable sense of humor. So For 25 years, I have worked for myself. During that time, I have created eleven jobs for myself. I got three percolatin right now. They all provide enough. I have two sons in college. I could go on.
A lotta those never comin back jobs, we don't want back. Fire all the toll collectors and give everyone an Easy-Pass. Put the money into retraining them for real jobs. Phase 'em out over, say, three years or so. There are ways to do it. Same with cashiers. Learn to do the self check-out. Bank on line. And stop whining.
I reckon that we all have a lotta friends here, some real, some that we have never seen, who are out of work or underemployed. If they are really our friends, we would be a better friend to talk ideas, and offer suggestions, than to pissanmoan about the present and make up things and offer them as fact, about how we got here, or to predict the future like we know what we are talkin about.
Put something useful on the table.

Mike Tremor
08-27-2010, 10:11 PM
Maybe-- and I'm just spitballin' here-- maybe he's just a lousy businessman. The American landscape is littered with people who are really good at a task but really bad at making money off it.

We're doing quite well. Thanks for asking. The American landscape is littered with people such as yourself who are all mouth. Big hat, no cattle as they say.

Mike Tremor
08-27-2010, 10:12 PM
Let mw explain more clearly, as you seem more and more like one of those business owners who don''t have a clue about where to find toilet paper after you deficate.

We BUY windows. But when it comes to INSTALLATION, we may HIRE the seller's installers, or we may HIRE a third party to install them, or we may DO IT OURSELVES (DIY they call it). In this case DIY is not part of the program, in spite of the fact tha I an emminently qualified to insatall windows (glass windows, not software windows).

So yes, we "HIRE" windows.

Are we clear, Mike?

Moby Nick

So how many people did you add to your payroll? That was my question. And what did you do before you retired. If I were guessing I'd say government work. Government union work probably.

Glen Longino
08-27-2010, 10:29 PM
"We're doing quite well."

Then quit your bitching!;)

Captain Blight
08-27-2010, 10:30 PM
We're doing quite well. Thanks for asking. The American landscape is littered with people such as yourself who are all mouth. Big hat, no cattle as they say.

Sorry I blew up

Mike Tremor
08-30-2010, 09:41 PM
"We're doing quite well."

Then quit your bitching!;)

I'm not bitching. I'm explaining why I'm not willing to risk hiring additional employees. This thread was started by Nicholas Scheuer. His life's work seems to be bitching about one thing or another. You seem to do way more than your share of bitching too, come to think of it. You and Nicholas should get together for a beer sometime.

Phil Heffernan
08-31-2010, 12:39 AM
Funny, the USA is in deep deep doo doo, and everyone is still pointing fingers and hoping the black guy fails. Weirder and weirder.

So true Peter, it boggles the mind. Sometimes i got a mind to ramble...;o)

OconeePirate
08-31-2010, 09:03 AM
I'll hire an independent contractor, or two, or three, or however many when and if business requires it. Right now I'm close to laying myself off most weeks.