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skuthorp
08-11-2010, 10:45 PM
Local news is that forecasts are at 0.3%. China is slowing as well, concerns of a double dip.
AFP
"World markets were thrown into turmoil on Wednesday as investors worried that US growth - a key engine of the global economy - is coming coughing and spluttering to a halt.
Investors from New York to Tokyo poured money into safer assets after the Federal Reserve warned the US recovery would be "more modest" than expected."
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/gloom-reigns-as-us-recovery-slows-20100812-120gj.html
There's a report that services in some US cities like buses and street lighting have been slashed to save money. A US$26 bill. bail out package for the states.

What's it look like from your end?

ripley699
08-11-2010, 10:49 PM
""Any body watching the US economy? (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?118498-Any-body-watching-the-US-economy) """ ??? Nope , NOt anyone,,the least of who are the obama administration

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-11-2010, 10:57 PM
Local news is that forecasts are at 0.3%. China is slowing as well, concerns of a double dip.
AFP
"World markets were thrown into turmoil on Wednesday as investors worried that US growth - a key engine of the global economy - is coming coughing and spluttering to a halt.
Investors from New York to Tokyo poured money into safer assets after the Federal Reserve warned the US recovery would be "more modest" than expected."
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/gloom-reigns-as-us-recovery-slows-20100812-120gj.html?


It was on the evening news just a few hours ago. Remember there is a time difference. I ain't ready to put my head in the oven just yet.


There's a report that services in some US cities like buses and street lighting have been slashed to save money. A US$26 bill. bail out package for the states.?


You are an hour late and a dollar short, mate. Veradero from sunny Majorca has already beaten us over the head with that tidbit about a day or more ago. Economic changes don't gallop along. They're more of the pace of a cricket match with alot of tea breaks and changes of those white uniforms.

skuthorp
08-11-2010, 11:02 PM
I like the cricket anology, there's a lot of 'spin' involved and dodgy appeals to the umpire as well as lashing out wildly or playing a dead bat.

coelacanth2
08-11-2010, 11:05 PM
The official unemployment number is around 9.5% but that is misleading, at best. That is the percentage of relatively recently unemployed who are still looking for jobs. Due to statistical chicanery emplaced several administrations ago it doesn't include those who used to be working 2 or so years ago but have given up trying. Add those folks in and the number is in the high teens, closer to 20%. Now add in the underemployed - working but not full time. The real numbers are rather ugly. Speaking personally, I have remained reasonably busy although I am down one assistant. Speaking with a colleague in our Northernmost county (up on the border with Philadelphia) he is busy enough (he is VERY good at what he does) but a lot of the generalists are closed a day or day-and-a-half per week many are down 30 to 40 % gross receipts.

RonW
08-11-2010, 11:09 PM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704901104575423601722830706.html

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/housing/2010-08-11-housing11_cv_N.htm

http://www.cnbc.com/id/38654017

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/%22waves-of-more-foreclosures%22--more-bank-failures--big-trouble-for-the-fdic-suttmeier-says-535314.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-08-11/u-s-is-bankrupt-and-we-don-t-even-know-commentary-by-laurence-kotlikoff.html

purri
08-11-2010, 11:14 PM
IMF report states US is insolvent and for many years to come.

htom
08-11-2010, 11:18 PM
Good question: How-Did-The-Word-Ponzi-Get-Into-The-MSM? (http://market-ticker.org/archives/2572-How-Did-The-Word-Ponzi-Get-Into-The-MSM.html)

redeye1962
08-11-2010, 11:28 PM
It is only going to get worse. BHO is making sure of that.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-12-2010, 02:09 AM
What economy?All the powers that be,or robbed the treasury,dont have an investment here.Crime is rampent,police are getting pink slips.The prisons are giving early parol,and a free bus ticket outa town.The average man that provides for is family will do WHATEVER it takes for his pride,including robberys etc. The answer is jobs.This isn't happening like the last crash.SO,lets say he robs,is caught.Lawyers get paid. Judges..on&on.What about the wife&kids? It cost 50'000 a year for his handlers in prision.They will pay him 19cents a hour to low bid against your neighbor-friend for piece work(Sold by a no bid contractor for 40% more.)Now,your neighbors were under bid,then layed off. This is soo stupid.Give him a job for 40.000 so the family stays in their home.(kids homeless-1,400 in a foster home.-Mom homeless-500.00 a month in shame on welfare,as they are homeless now).I know it sounds extream,but the family IS the core of the economy.No one has the time to orgainize when confronted with these tramatic problems.

The speed of remediation has something to do with the depth of the decline. There hasn't been anything this severe since before you were born so, of course, your frame of reference is a little dodgey.
The guy thats's in charge of the Fed did his doctoral disertation on the Great Depression so he isn't necessarily flying blind.
The crux of this situation is the voters should know they will get it the neck if they elect the wrong guy. And in this case they elected the wrong guy twice. Time wounds all heels.

purri
08-12-2010, 03:00 AM
I'm with skipper on this.

skuthorp
08-12-2010, 06:40 AM
Thanks for the links RonW, looks very scary from here, is the general population aware of the depth of the problem is and if so what are they saying?

skuthorp
08-12-2010, 07:49 AM
Figures, I suspect that they can't let themselves think about it because the logic is terrifying. There's good old Aussie phrase "She'll be right", which encapsulates the reaction and the pap fed to the hoi polloi on TV normalises the situation.

PeterSibley
08-12-2010, 08:21 AM
I found the link Ron posted today in one of our busines papers ,quite horrifying !http://www.smh.com.au/business/us-is-bankrupt-and-we-dont-even-know-it-20100812-12056.html

US is bankrupt and we don't even know it

LAURENCE KOTLIKOFF

August 12, 2010 - 8:33AM

Let's get real. The US is bankrupt. Neither spending more nor taxing less will help the country pay its bills.
What it can and must do is radically simplify its tax, health-care, retirement and financial systems, each of which is a complete mess. But this is the good news. It means they can each be redesigned to achieve their legitimate purposes at much lower cost and, in the process, revitalise the economy.
Last month, the International Monetary Fund released its annual review of US economic policy. Its summary contained these bland words about US fiscal policy: "Directors welcomed the authorities' commitment to fiscal stabilisation, but noted that a larger than budgeted adjustment would be required to stabilise debt-to-GDP."
But delve deeper, and you will find that the IMF has effectively pronounced the US bankrupt. Section 6 of the July 2010 Selected Issues Paper says: "The US fiscal gap associated with today's federal fiscal policy is huge for plausible discount rates." It adds that "closing the fiscal gap requires a permanent annual fiscal adjustment equal to about 14 per cent of US GDP."
The fiscal gap is the value today (the present value) of the difference between projected spending (including servicing official debt) and projected revenue in all future years.
Double Our Taxes
To put 14 per cent of gross domestic product in perspective, current federal revenue totals 14.9 per cent of GDP. So the IMF is saying that closing the U.S. fiscal gap, from the revenue side, requires, roughly speaking, an immediate and permanent doubling of our personal-income, corporate and federal taxes as well as the payroll levy set down in the Federal Insurance Contribution Act.
Such a tax hike would leave the US running a surplus equal to 5 per cent of GDP this year, rather than a 9 per cent deficit. So the IMF is really saying the US needs to run a huge surplus now and for many years to come to pay for the spending that is scheduled. It's also saying the longer the country waits to make tough fiscal adjustments, the more painful they will be.
Is the IMF bonkers?
No. It has done its homework. So has the Congressional Budget Office whose Long-Term Budget Outlook, released in June, shows an even larger problem.
'Unofficial' Liabilities
Based on the CBO's data, I calculate a fiscal gap of $US202 trillion, which is more than 15 times the official debt. This gargantuan discrepancy between our "official" debt and our actual net indebtedness isn't surprising. It reflects what economists call the labeling problem. Congress has been very careful over the years to label most of its liabilities "unofficial" to keep them off the books and far in the future.
For example, our Social Security FICA contributions are called taxes and our future Social Security benefits are called transfer payments. The government could equally well have labeled our contributions "loans" and called our future benefits "repayment of these loans less an old age tax," with the old age tax making up for any difference between the benefits promised and principal plus interest on the contributions.
The fiscal gap isn't affected by fiscal labeling. It's the only theoretically correct measure of our long-run fiscal condition because it considers all spending, no matter how labeled, and incorporates long-term and short-term policy.
$US4 Trillion Bill
How can the fiscal gap be so enormous?
Simple. We have 78 million baby boomers who, when fully retired, will collect benefits from Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid that, on average, exceed per-capita GDP. The annual costs of these entitlements will total about $US4 trillion in today's dollars. Yes, our economy will be bigger in 20 years, but not big enough to handle this size load year after year.
This is what happens when you run a massive Ponzi scheme for six decades straight, taking ever larger resources from the young and giving them to the old while promising the young their eventual turn at passing the generational buck.
Herb Stein, chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under US President Richard Nixon, coined an oft-repeated phrase: "Something that can't go on, will stop." True enough. Uncle Sam's Ponzi scheme will stop. But it will stop too late.
And it will stop in a very nasty manner. The first possibility is massive benefit cuts visited on the baby boomers in retirement. The second is astronomical tax increases that leave the young with little incentive to work and save. And the third is the government simply printing vast quantities of money to cover its bills.
Worse Than Greece
Most likely we will see a combination of all three responses with dramatic increases in poverty, tax, interest rates and consumer prices. This is an awful, downhill road to follow, but it's the one we are on. And bond traders will kick us miles down our road once they wake up and realise the US is in worse fiscal shape than Greece.
Some doctrinaire Keynesian economists would say any stimulus over the next few years won't affect our ability to deal with deficits in the long run.
This is wrong as a simple matter of arithmetic. The fiscal gap is the government's credit-card bill and each year's 14 per cent of GDP is the interest on that bill. If it doesn't pay this year's interest, it will be added to the balance.
Demand-siders say forgoing this year's 14 per cent fiscal tightening, and spending even more, will pay for itself, in present value, by expanding the economy and tax revenue.
My reaction? Get real, or go hang out with equally deluded supply-siders. Our country is broke and can no longer afford no- pain, all-gain "solutions."
Laurence J. Kotlikoff is a professor of economics at Boston University and author of Jimmy Stewart Is Dead: Ending the World's Ongoing Financial Plague with Limited Purpose Banking.
Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/)

purri
08-12-2010, 08:30 AM
Certainly not due to the incumbent administration but to the last 40 years of varying administrations and profligate consumer consumption.

PeterSibley
08-12-2010, 08:38 AM
I'd suggest that the fastest way to loose an election is to tell the truth ...other than as the voters already know it .

skuthorp
08-12-2010, 08:55 AM
Yes, we holler for the truth but the shock of it might kill us eh? Funnily enough I reckon that when it comes to it most, though they may be in denial, know instinctively what the 'real' situation is. Our governments don't give us enouhg credit.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
08-12-2010, 09:01 AM
How is it in the United States that after two years in office, and inheriting a huge mess, one man gets blamed for something as complicated as the world economy?

PeterSibley
08-12-2010, 09:03 AM
I wonder how a Presidential candidate who said the US was bankrupt would go? Especially if he suggested doubling taxes to pay the way .

McMike
08-12-2010, 09:06 AM
How is it in the United States that after two years in office, and inheriting a huge mess, one man gets blamed for something as complicated as the world economy?

Ya, I'm trying to figure that out myself. One answer I have is stupidity with bigotry following close behind.

elf
08-12-2010, 09:15 AM
Do people who get gout just quit eating rich food?

PeterSibley
08-12-2010, 09:19 AM
Yep .I would .

peb
08-12-2010, 09:28 AM
IIRC, it is the National Bureau of Economic Research that many people give the last word in calling the start and stop of recessions and they have yet to say the last one has ended. Of course, they normally state the timing after the fact, so that doesn't mean they won't eventually say it has ended by now, but I don't think they have done so yet. And thats the way I feel about the economy, we are still in the previous recession. I think the used Jan, 2008 as the start of this recession, so its been 31 months. By now, in previous recession cycles, the economy, as measured by GDP, should be above where it was when the recession started. We are still 4% below where we were in Jan, 2008.

Employment is always a lagging indicator, but never as bad as it is this time. There are lots of problems out there. But in particular, a couple of years ago, we went through a economic "reset" to a lower base level. That left us with a ton of spare capacity, in housing, employment, retail space, manufacturing, etc. On top of that, due to technology advances, we can now produce enough goods and services without full employment. We will be muddling through this mess for some time to come.

Yesterday, the WSJ had a really good editorial about the adverse effects of the very low short term interest rates. The basic premise was that when rates are at or near zero%, the problems caused by the low rates far outweigh the normal stimulus we expect out of the fed lowering rates. Banks can borrow at zero and simply lend it to the government at 3-4%. Not a bad spread at all, so why should they lend to small businesses. People don't see savings grow very much, so this causes them to save more to make up for the loss of interest income. Zero percent interest never helped Japan in the early 90s. There was a thread, which I haven't opened, titled "did the stimulus work". There should be one, "did the zero percent interest work" also.

Neither is working, and neither will work IMO, because the economy may have truly shrunk this time and we have so much excess capactiy to boot. In the past recessions, monetary policy by the federal reserve and fiscal stimulus by the US government has worked to get the economy back on track, but those were downturns, not resets.

We need a policy this time that gets to the heart of the matter. We need to spread the pain of this economic reset around a little bit better to ease the burden on the 10-20% who are taking the brunt of it now. I have said before, and I will say again. The one thing that seems like it would help is reducing the work week.

Milo Christensen
08-12-2010, 10:11 AM
. . . The blame for the mess we are in 1 1/2 years after his inauguration, is squarely upon his boney shoulders.

How can you be just intelligent enough to type such stupid stuff? It's amazing, unique in the annals of mental disability.

David Stockman has it right (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01stockman.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1), the mess has all been caused by Republicans.

TimH
08-12-2010, 10:18 AM
They could always double the tax rate on unemployment and give more tax cuts to the rich. That will help for sure.

SMARTINSEN
08-12-2010, 10:38 AM
Among the principal causes of our woes, IMHO:

1. Over-exuberant tax-cutting and military adventurism. Blame George W. Bush
2. De-regulation of the financial industry. Blame Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton.

These two things sygenergistically compounded our financial woes and due to magnitude of the problem it will take some time to work things out.

There are other causes, of course, but the point is that this is not "barry's" fault.

peb
08-12-2010, 11:05 AM
How can you be just intelligent enough to type such stupid stuff? It's amazing, unique in the annals of mental disability.

David Stockman has it right (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/opinion/01stockman.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1), the mess has all been caused by Republicans.


I suppose the blame game between dems and reps is inevitable. But it is really ridiculous, lots of blame to spread around. Alan Greenspan kept interest rates low too long in the eayly part of the decade, dems in congress blocked reform of freddie and fannie, thase GOP ran too large of deficits in the first six years of the previous admin, the dems carried forward with a vengence the last 4 years, the american people placed themselves in debt at way too high of a level, large banks and financial institutions ran at way too high of leverage, etc, etc, etc. The blame is on us, the American people. We lived beyond our means, cheap/dumb money made that possible, we overbuild our economic capacity while doing so.

Milo Christensen
08-12-2010, 11:41 AM
The list of charges from Stockman against the Republican party:

Current accounts deficit - $8 trillion.
Public debt - soon to be - $18 trillion
Flooding financial markets with "free" money - $30 trillion - doing what these days, exactly?
A decade long reduction in high value jobs from 77 million to 68 million. Stockman neglects to mention the millions who entered the job market and the millions more who entered illegally.

JimD
08-12-2010, 11:41 AM
Yes, definitely time to create a new bubble to fuel a false recovery based on non existent wealth and valueless assets along with more worthless political promises to turn back the clock to an earlier era when American interests dominated global markets.

Scott Rosen
08-12-2010, 11:56 AM
Yes, definitely time to create a new bubble to fuel a false recovery based on non existent wealth and valueless assets It's not time yet. But have patience. The next bubble will arrive in due time.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-12-2010, 12:59 PM
I can't get over this thread. A bunch of Right-wingers joyously predicting the demise of their country. I think,"be careful what you wish" for should be inserted about here.
And you folks from OZ amaze me too. Have you ever speculated that if the US goes down your country goes down too?
For all it's warts the US is the big kahuna in the world's economy. It's mere existance is a stabilizing asset. Fortunately, the US is today led by some of the smartest and most accomplished people we have. Can you imagine the consternation if George Bush was only going into his second term in 2008? Our creditors would have probably turned off the spigot by now. We are where we are because world opinion is Barach Obama is intelligent and trustworthy. That view is like money in the bank. It keeps our credit lines open. At the moment there is nobody on our political horizen that can garner as much world wide respect. No matter what the "Barry haters" say we are damned lucky.

Milo Christensen
08-12-2010, 01:07 PM
I can't get over your post. Wow. Have you read the news, any news, since January 20th, 2009? Look, do yourself a favor and read just a few reports about Greece's economy (http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=7&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=greece+economy&oq=greece). Please.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-12-2010, 02:03 PM
Barack Obama is not the president of Greece. most of this thread has been a bitch session aimed at Barack Obama and his handling of the economic downturn.
But if you want to include Europe lets look at Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland. they can't pay their bills either. The EU is working on that problem but the jury is still out.
My reading says if the US goes down it takes everybody with it. But if the above go down they don't necessarily destroy us. It would not be good for us but it would not be the coup de grace.
Obama has taken the only logical avenue open to him. He has to act. He cannot sit back and hope that something like the Laffer Curve will come to the rescue. And at this moment we are too close to the action to really know if the remediation is working.
For those that have a bitch let's hear them. But, nothing is going to change till 2012 and then only if you can garner the votes. From where I sit you don't have anyone with that knockout punch. Better get to work on that.

LeeG
08-12-2010, 02:12 PM
Nope, he's not Tylerdurden.

Ted Hoppe
08-12-2010, 02:47 PM
Don't worry. More money will be freed up when more folks stop paying their underwater mortgages. If 30 percent of all the homeowners stopped paying... Imagine how much more money would flow to consumer goods and services. "since we aren't paying our morgage anymore... Let's go buy a new iPhone, have a fajita at Chilis and see a movie."

If one who does this plus is clever enough one can live well saving the thousands each month to buy a place for cash somewhere warm as the debt crisis is settled for pennies on the dollar.

RonW
08-12-2010, 03:58 PM
Well do you guys in oz. now know why I just posted some everyday links that only took minutes to find..

Peb's post # 30 is pretty good...

And chuck's post #34, well I kinda like chuck and he is good to talk boats with...but I think obama pissed in lake erie and they all have been drinking too much water from the lake..

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-12-2010, 05:23 PM
besides, barach is the smartest, handsomest, most dreamiest world leader of all .......

And he can certainly pull his weight.
He did come out of nowhere and beat the pants off a certified war hero who was decades in the US Senate,whose father was a US Navy admiral and whose running mate was a red hot babe.
He did pass historic legislation that had been talked about for 100 years over the opposition of most of the Republicans in congress.
And, simultaneously took over the management of two wars left over from the previous administration.
And simultaneously take charge of bailing out an economy that was suffereing the worst downfall in 70 years.
And a few other things.
And he has not yet completed two years as president.
And he did a good job of jerking the chain of all the right-wing justices on the Supreme Court. To me he deserves a second term for that alone.

McMike
08-12-2010, 05:40 PM
The one thing that seems like it would help is reducing the work week.

Wow, I laughed AND cried. lol. I think limiting people to 40 hour work weeks will be a nice start. It would be better for family life and healthier too.

McMike
08-12-2010, 05:42 PM
Bigotry my arse. Get over it- we dont dislike barry cause hes black, but because hes running this country into the toilet with his policies!

barry might have inherited a mess, but hes the one who asked for the mess and he told everyone he was going to make it all better. now his policies and the over the top spending habits of he and his democrat cronies have really put us in a hole - and a real likelihood of one we can not get out of. The blame for the mess we are in 1 1/2 years after his inauguration, is squarely upon his boney shoulders.

Well there was always choice 2, lol. and BTW did you READ the Comment and what it was responding to?

McMike
08-12-2010, 05:48 PM
Nope, he's not Tylerdurden.

He's not smart enough to be TD

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-12-2010, 05:49 PM
Well do you guys in oz. now know why I just posted some everyday links that only took minutes to find..

Peb's post # 30 is pretty good...

And chuck's post #34, well I kinda like chuck and he is good to talk boats with...but I think obama pissed in lake erie and they all have been drinking too much water from the lake..

I notice you are quick to smart mouth me but you never attempt to refute what I have said. I'll duel with you but not with some third party who is not registered on this site.

McMike
08-12-2010, 06:08 PM
GIVE ME ANSWERS.

1) What would you (BHO haters) have done that would have been passed by both houses and both parties in order to "fix" the economy, starting January, 2009. Good luck with this one because I know, no matter what answer you give me, you have no Idea what the really magic bullet is. The fact that you think there is one is telling in itself.

2) Do you think JM would have done any better? The dude was an economic idiot living in a dream world. Not to mention, he, like BHO, is only one man in a system that requires many to make things happen. Give me someone who's smarter than a fifth grader and who actually cares about America and I'll vote for him Republican or Democrat.

3) I would have loved to have the Republicans participate in the past 1.5 years. As of now, all they have done is obstruct, and all you right wingers are gonna reward them for being big babies just because they're Republicans? Ridiculous. I say this with full knowledge that the Dem's suck the big one in many ways too. Which leads me to my final question . . .

4) Democrat or Republican, how do you KNOW FOR SURE who is on the up and up and who actually gives a crap about anything outside of their own bank accounts? Don't back your man up so fast when I know for a fact you're not psychic and have no idea who's good and who's bad.

No one here has even some of the answers, parts maybe but no real answers. All I hear is BS. STFU.

RonW
08-12-2010, 08:14 PM
McMike...I'll give you the answers you seek..

1-one hell of a lot of cutting and chopping that all of the left would have screamed foul over and most of the right as well..

2-Yep jm is a economic idiot, we agree..so let's see who obama appointed as his chief economic advisor..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers --scroll down to the bottom of the page and see the billion that he lost for the college due to his idiotcy..

3-when you disagree you vote NO..

4--the vast majority of them are corrupt and there in lies the problem..

McMike
08-13-2010, 08:10 AM
McMike...I'll give you the answers you seek..


1-one hell of a lot of cutting and chopping that all of the left would have screamed foul over and most of the right as well..

Sorry, not based in reality, try again.




2-Yep jm is a economic idiot, we agree..so let's see who obama appointed as his chief economic advisor..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers --scroll down to the bottom of the page and see the billion that he lost for the college due to his idiotcy..

Yup, I guess BHO is human, throw him in jail. You have no idea why he made that decision, good or bad, you have no clue. Do you? Keep talking from your rear, it's kinda funny.


3-when you disagree you vote NO..

No, you act like an adult and make decisions that NEED to be made, hint: this sometimes involves compromise. Fact is, there aren't very many in either party that seems to have the best interest of the country in mind. At least the Democrats act like they do, it's a lot better getting the shaft when the shafter is talking nice to you.



4--the vast majority of them are corrupt and there in lies the problem..
Well then, there is something we can agree upon. However, there is NOTHING we can do about it, most times we can't tell the wheat from the chaff. I can tell you that when a administration starts a war based on a lie and that administration is deeply connected to "big oil" and the war allows "big oil" to make gobs of money while soldiers are dying and a nation, no, the world is plunged into a deep recession, well there's a big pile of chaff my friend. That's treason, or at least grounds for an investigation of treason, yet you're too blinded by ideas to see that your country just got raped by daddy in the worst and darkest way. BHO and his administration is a kitten compared to Bush's, a family who should have never been allowed within 50 miles of the Whitehouse simply because of the conflict of interest that existed. There should never again be allowed in any elected office a person with such deep connections to that kind of money and power, the risks are to great.

One more question; Would you allow a bank robber guard Fort Knox? Answer: you just did and the funny thing is you fell for it hook, line, and sinker. The vault is empty and you're blaming the new guard, real smart.

PeterSibley
08-13-2010, 08:34 AM
Possibilities ?

''The first possibility is massive benefit cuts visited on the baby boomers in retirement. The second is astronomical tax increases that leave the young with little incentive to work and save. And the third is the government simply printing vast quantities of money to cover its bills.''

elf
08-13-2010, 09:23 AM
It's always interesting to me to see how unrealistic the suggested solutions are.

You know, every governmental system thus far has failed the prescience test. Every once in a while I like to think that's because we're simply not smart enough to imagine all the unintended consequences and devise plans that will head the largest possible number of them off.

Then I realize that it's really because people only have their immediate self-interest in mind.

McMike
08-13-2010, 09:39 AM
Look, the bottom line is that those in power can't be trusted and the people can't be trusted, both conditions are highly validated facts. We all know why those in power can't be trusted but the reason the people can't be trusted is because the large majority of us is ignorant beyond hope. This ignorance is counted on and quite possibly, intentionally fostered. Until we have a people who are willing to learn, truly learn, we will only see what those in power want us to see.

Remember the kool-aid thing that keeps getting brought up, here's a big reality; most of this country (USA) is drinking it. It's only the fault of the individual that this country is going to hell in a hand basket. Greed, wanton ignorance (it wasn't possible until Americans made it possible:cool:), hate, and greed (I know, it deserved another mention).

Thirsty for more?

Milo Christensen
08-13-2010, 09:42 AM
. . . There should never again be allowed in any elected office a person with such deep connections to that kind of money and power, the risks are to great. . . .

There will never again be a POTUS without some kind of deep connections to that kind of money and power. Google Obama Soros Petrobras.

McMike
08-13-2010, 10:00 AM
There will never again be a POTUS without some kind of deep connections to that kind of money and power. Google Obama Soros Petrobras.


You are correct to a point but you know very well the kind of connections I'm talking about. Seriously, don't play games, I'm not here to make you wrong, I'm only looking for a little bit more of the truth.:)

TimH
08-13-2010, 10:22 AM
The solution?

A well-found cruising yacht with water maker, etc. as self-sufficient as possible.

And learn how little you need to live, not how much.

Oh yea...and learn to live on fish and coconuts.

Milo Christensen
08-13-2010, 11:30 AM
You handed out a truth about the Bush-Walker corruption. I handed out a truth about the Obama / Soros corruption. The net amount of truth on this thread has increased. There's no game involved.

Gerarddm
08-13-2010, 11:50 AM
My dear sir, we are living the US economy. We are watching China's.

McMike
08-13-2010, 12:00 PM
You handed out a truth about the Bush-Walker corruption. I handed out a truth about the Obama / Soros corruption. The net amount of truth on this thread has increased. There's no game involved.

Matter of scale not truth, no?

Milo Christensen
08-13-2010, 01:57 PM
Matter of scale not truth, no?

Truth IS. Scale = scoring = games.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-13-2010, 02:53 PM
Truth IS. Scale = scoring = games.

A bit too succinct for clarity.
Is the game to kick the props from under Obama's economic initiatives regardless of the cost?

RonW
08-13-2010, 03:04 PM
Is the game to kick the props from under Obama's economic initiatives regardless of the cost?

No chuck, the game is to stabilize and rebuild the economy upon sound financial policies without leading to ww3 or a total collapse of the constitution.

McMike
08-13-2010, 06:39 PM
Truth IS. Scale = scoring = games.

*sigh* You win . . . or we all lose. Whichever.

Milo Christensen
08-13-2010, 08:01 PM
. . . we all lose. . . .

I'm afraid so. Unless . . . we all stop playing the fiscal irresponsibility game.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-13-2010, 08:56 PM
No chuck, the game is to stabilize and rebuild the economy upon sound financial policies without leading to ww3 or a total collapse of the constitution.

The Cheney/Bush combine punched a hole in the ship of state and left it adrift far from home. Right now all we can do is try to keep it afloat. We'll worry about the cost when we are back in port.
To put it another way,the President could NOT sit around and wait for the wounds to heal themselves. History says that approach is a loser. The Repugnicans got Hoover's name on a dam but the public was mostly inclined to damn him for his inaction. And they certainly applauded his succeror who was full of action and programs for which he got re-elected president three times.
Obama is not in communion with The Almighty like his predissesor so he had to rely on his economic team to come up with their best estimate of how to procede. If you want to take issue with him or them you will have to come up with something that doesn't look like generic right-wing buzz words.
Our economy can only be rebuilt if there is something left to rebuild upon. And that is what Obama's plan is attempting. There is no guarantee it will work but it sure as hell beats sitting around waiting for a message from God or His suntanned buddy John Boehner.