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P.I. Stazzer-Newt
08-11-2010, 04:00 PM
BBC2 Now.

If you ever get the chance to miss it - do avail yourself of the opportunity.

Carp.

McMike
08-11-2010, 04:03 PM
I watched it. I love that stuff. The "textured" foil reflectors behind the garnets, very cool!!! I can't wait to see some of it cleaned up.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
08-11-2010, 04:26 PM
The stuff is - as ever - glorious, the TV program was a collection of cinematic clichés with an addled commentary - a catalogue of missed opportunities.

All too typical of the latest run of BBC-Does-Serious-Stuff, low information density and superficial.

Cuyahoga Chuck
08-11-2010, 04:30 PM
Gasp! Do you think it's necessary to bring the Snows back?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-12-2010, 05:38 AM
Not just me, then.

The Snows were never given anything resembling a budget.

PeterSibley
08-12-2010, 05:51 AM
I've just been watching footage of a 11000 year old village being excavated in the UK .The oldest shaped timbers so far discovered in Europe .

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-12-2010, 06:00 AM
Yes; that is rather interesting. The thing which does puzzle me, though, is the assumption that this was a hunter-gatherer settlement.

I had rather taken it that hunter-gatherers in temperate climates would of necessity be more or less nomadic because there would not be sufficient food supplies in one place, year round - the Jōmon peoples of Mesolithic Japan being a well known exception who could settle because of the abundance of their food supply.

Peerie Maa
08-12-2010, 12:54 PM
Yes; that is rather interesting. The thing which does puzzle me, though, is the assumption that this was a hunter-gatherer settlement.

I had rather taken it that hunter-gatherers in temperate climates would of necessity be more or less nomadic because there would not be sufficient food supplies in one place, year round - the Jōmon peoples of Mesolithic Japan being a well known exception who could settle because of the abundance of their food supply.

There are hunter gatherer middens here on Walney. I think that they were seasonal. Moved to the coast when shell fish could be gathered, then to another place to exploit its resources. Each location would have required the construction of shelter, and if several resources could be exploited from one camp, it would make sense to build to last.

Pugwash
08-12-2010, 12:58 PM
Yes; that is rather interesting. The thing which does puzzle me, though, is the assumption that this was a hunter-gatherer settlement.

I had rather taken it that hunter-gatherers in temperate climates would of necessity be more or less nomadic because there would not be sufficient food supplies in one place, year round - the Jōmon peoples of Mesolithic Japan being a well known exception who could settle because of the abundance of their food supply.

It's associated with Star Carr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Carr)

Which is an easy Google and very interesting.

PeterSibley
08-12-2010, 07:26 PM
Yes; that is rather interesting. The thing which does puzzle me, though, is the assumption that this was a hunter-gatherer settlement.

I had rather taken it that hunter-gatherers in temperate climates would of necessity be more or less nomadic because there would not be sufficient food supplies in one place, year round - the Jōmon peoples of Mesolithic Japan being a well known exception who could settle because of the abundance of their food supply.

Here's another link http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s993544.htm.Eel farming in Victoria in Australia , an interesting combination of farming and hunter gathering life in a temperate climate that just happened to have a natural resource ,eels , that became the basis of a very wide trading system and a long term settlement .

Hwyl
08-12-2010, 07:31 PM
Hunter gatherers settled down because they wanted to wait for the fermentation of their beer. Yes beer is responsible for civilisation as we know it

purri
08-12-2010, 09:27 PM
Here's another link http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s993544.htm.Eel farming in Victoria in Australia , an interesting combination of farming and hunter gathering life in a temperate climate that just happened to have a natural resource ,eels , that became the basis of a very wide trading system and a long term settlement .

Budj Bim is on the Federal heritage register. It's a modified landscape utilising Palaeolithic lava flows to create a large scale aquaculture over abt 30 hectares. Records have it as abt 15K BCE with smokeing structures and low stone dwellings. Wauthorong and Gunditjmara mobs (and others) have their stories abt it.

Another is The Nghuunu (Biaime's Nghunnu) at Brewarrina also listed. Dated as either abt 15K BCE or before 45K BCE. I did some work with local community on a conservation management plan for the latter in 2007. In short it forms part of a Biaime songline that starts near Kubbah (Cobar) through Mt Grenfell, Gundabooka and Mt Mitchell? n/east of Bourke thence up the Barwon to the Nghunnu/ Mirri Gunnawal adjacent and out to Cuddy Springs, Narran Lake and Boobera Lagoon.

Pugwash
08-12-2010, 10:02 PM
Budj Bim is on the Federal heritage register. It's a modified landscape utilising Palaeolithic lava flows to crate a alrge scale aquculture. Records have it as abt 15K BCE with smokeing structures and low stone dwellings.

Another is The Nghuunu (Biaime's Nghunnu) at Brewarrina also listed. Dated as either abt 15K BCE or before 45k BCE. I did some work with local community on a conservation management plan for the latter in 2007. In short it forms part of a Biaime songline that starts near Kubbah (Cobar) through Mt Grenfell, Gundabooka and Mt Mitchell? n/east of Bourke thence up the Barwon to the Nghunnu/ Mirri Gunnawal adjacent and out to Cuddy Springs, Narran Lake and Boobera Lagoon.


That means absolutely nothing to me LOL.

But, the Red Lady of Paviland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lady_of_Paviland) does.

It was actually a bloke, buried with the ingredients for beer.

Getting drunk is a human condition, no matter if you are nomadic or "settled".

purri
08-12-2010, 10:06 PM
^ google either for some info.

PeterSibley
08-12-2010, 10:08 PM
That means absolutely nothing to me LOL.


That's more a reflection on you than anything else .

Pugwash
08-12-2010, 10:17 PM
That's more a reflection on you than anything else .

Absolutely.

As a Brit, I'm not quite sure why I should be cognisant of Australian archaeology. But I'm sure you'll tell me.

:d

purri
08-12-2010, 10:20 PM
We refer to it as a living landscape. Contemporary archaeological and heritage practice recognises this. ICOMOS and the Burra Charter is worth a read.

headonz
08-12-2010, 11:45 PM
I've just been watching footage of a 11000 year old village being excavated in the UK .The oldest shaped timbers so far discovered in Europe .

Got URL of that ? , I thought they had carbon dated stone structures in Scotland to 22K yrs ,struggling to bring it up ,I'm on dial up for a few days.

Bradshaw Foundation http://..... ect ect , Genetic Map. shows Britain still struggling out of the last freeze down at 11000 ago FWIW.

PeterSibley
08-12-2010, 11:53 PM
No , it was an ABC or SBS news story .

PeterSibley
08-12-2010, 11:54 PM
Absolutely.

As a Brit, I'm not quite sure why I should be cognisant of Australian archaeology. But I'm sure you'll tell me.

:d

It's a big world , not just our home grounds ...I'm interested in the UK too .

Pugwash
08-12-2010, 11:56 PM
Got URL of that ? , I thought they had carbon dated stone structures in Scotland to 22K yrs ,struggling to bring it up ,I'm on dial up for a few days.

Bradshaw Foundation http://..... ect ect , Genetic Map. shows Britain still struggling out of the last freeze down at 11000 ago FWIW.

Star Carr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Carr)

Star Carr House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Carr_house)

Pugwash
08-13-2010, 12:01 AM
Meanwhile, in a galaxy far far away....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerset_Levels

Pugwash
08-13-2010, 12:10 AM
Which leads to this.

http://viewfinder.english-heritage.org.uk/gallery/450/haw/haw_9387_15.jpg

Pugwash
08-13-2010, 12:12 AM
Which leads to this.

http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/england/images/stone-ring-avebury-500.jpg

Pugwash
08-13-2010, 12:15 AM
And really, Stonehenge is just the red headed step child of Lithic monuments.

But it does seem to have captured the public imagination, a bit like Lindsey Lohan.

Pugwash
08-13-2010, 12:20 AM
SRSLY?

Stonehenge v this?

http://www.fokusz.info/Image/67._szam/newgrange1.jpg

Or this?

http://www.sacredsitestours.com/images/Skara_Brae.jpg

LMFAO.

stevebaby
08-13-2010, 12:46 AM
SRSLY?

Stonehenge v this?

http://www.fokusz.info/Image/67._szam/newgrange1.jpg

Or this?

http://www.sacredsitestours.com/images/Skara_Brae.jpg

LMFAO.The bottom pic is Skara Brae,the other looks a bit like Maes Howe (but isn't)....just looked at the URL for the pic...New Grange in Ireland.
I know my liths. :D

Pugwash
08-13-2010, 12:55 AM
Ok smartypants.

http://i.imgur.com/66ADd.jpg

Uploaded to an image hosting site, with no identifying URL.

But I will give you an archaeologic hint. That stone at the front is a Blue Stone.

purri
08-13-2010, 01:22 AM
Now lithsen here smartypants!

Now seriously this is great stuff! Btw Budj Bim estimate has been wound back to abt 30K BCE plus but I err on the side of caution.

But are you claiming it as H. sapiens or Neanderthaaler

stevebaby
08-13-2010, 01:25 AM
You win! At a guess,somewhere between Stonehenge and Wales? :D

Pugwash
08-13-2010, 01:35 AM
Now seriously this is great stuff! Btw Budj Bim estimate has been wound back to abt 30K BCE plus but I err on the side of caution.

But are you claiming it as H. sapiens or Neanderthaaler

Everything I posted is the work of Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

Are you suggesting that Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis made it to Aus?

purri
08-13-2010, 01:40 AM
Hardly mate! We left it to you fellas to do the "cross cultural experiment". :d

Pugwash
08-13-2010, 01:46 AM
You win! At a guess,somewhere between Stonehenge and Wales? :D

The West Kennet Long Barrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Kennet_Long_Barrow)

Part of the Avebury ritual landscape, which includes this.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/england/images/avebury/silbury-hill/silbury-hill-cc-earth-sanctuary-350.jpg

purri
08-13-2010, 02:25 AM
I thought it a bit big to wheel around. :D

JayInOz
08-13-2010, 02:34 AM
The West Kennet Long Barrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Kennet_Long_Barrow)

Part of the Avebury ritual landscape, which includes this.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/england/images/avebury/silbury-hill/silbury-hill-cc-earth-sanctuary-350.jpg

Whatever they buried under that must have smelled rooly bad! JayInOz

Hwyl
08-13-2010, 02:55 AM
All of the above was already in Britain when the Anglo Saxons recently arrived for (we hope) their temporary stay.

Peerie Maa
08-13-2010, 06:47 AM
I'm kinda impressed by this lot
http://www.brittany-flats.com/images/Aerial%20Stones%202.JPG

PeterSibley
08-13-2010, 07:26 AM
Tank traps ?

Peerie Maa
08-13-2010, 07:38 AM
Tank traps ?

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/1880549

PeterSibley
08-13-2010, 07:48 AM
So definitely tank traps , just extremely ancient ones !


The first post was attempted humor .:rolleyes:

Peerie Maa
08-13-2010, 08:00 AM
So definitely tank traps , just extremely ancient ones !


The first post was attempted humor .:rolleyes:

From when the cheese eating surrender monkeys . . . . oh never mind.

PeterSibley
08-13-2010, 08:06 AM
Mysteries within mysteries .

When are these menhirs dated from ? There must have been quite large populations to organise the labour and food ..... Farmers , rather than hunter gatherers ? If so what crops ? Could it have been middle eastern grain so early ?

purri
08-13-2010, 08:12 AM
All of the above was already in Britain when the Anglo Saxons recently arrived for (we hope) their temporary stay.
Now mind your language fella! Those little parts I have Celts (sheep tor mob) and the Hengist and Horsa blowins (Darlings) so I'm nowt beholden to none eh?

And as for the stone parking meters for chariots, well town planners know nowt on them!

McMike
08-13-2010, 08:21 AM
Lol @ parking meters!!!!!!!:d:dY>

Peerie Maa
08-13-2010, 09:13 AM
Mysteries within mysteries .

When are these menhirs dated from ? There must have been quite large populations to organise the labour and food ..... Farmers , rather than hunter gatherers ? If so what crops ? Could it have been middle eastern grain so early ?

3300 to 4300 BC, Neolithic era. The sea level was lower at that time, so there is one stone circle on an island that is half in water and half dry. If you look in Wiki at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnac_stones some of the alignments are discussed, but there are more monuments in the area.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-13-2010, 12:13 PM
This one's for Hwyl; no standing stones but a good Bronze Age hill fort re-occupied by the Celts in response to the Anglo-Saxon invaders, and regularly identified as "Camelot":

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Somerset_cadbury_castle_modified.jpg

McMike
08-13-2010, 12:14 PM
This one's for Hwyl; no standing stones but a good Bronze Age hill fort re-occupied by the Celts in response to the Anglo-Saxon invaders, and regularly identified as "Camelot":

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Somerset_cadbury_castle_modified.jpg

That's not Glastonbury Tor.? Is it? Where's the tower?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
08-13-2010, 12:37 PM
No; it's my family hillfort! ;)

OK, seriously, it's quite near to Glastonbury Tor - it is South Cadbury hillfort, often called Cadbury-Camelot as it has been associated with Arthur for some hundreds of years; certainly since Leland. It was part excavated by my great great great grandfather, who was the local Rector, in the mid-nineteenth century (fortunately he did not do too much damage) and again much more seriously by Leslie Alcock in the 1970's. Alcock's dig showed that the site had been re-occupied and had been the scene of a big fire around the years 43 AD - 60 AD (presumably resistance to the Romans) and that it had been occupied again, and a feasting hall built, but not by Saxons, around 500 AD, so presumably it had been a centre of Celtic resistance to the Saxons, which should appeal to Hwyl. ;)

Finally it was last used, briefly, by Ethelred the Unready, as a mint, in 1014.

The feasting hall lends some colour to the Arthurian associations.

McMike
08-13-2010, 01:01 PM
I need to go out there to check these places out!!!!

Peerie Maa
08-13-2010, 01:06 PM
One thing that we Brits tend to forget was the the Celts including Arthur, occupied a landscape from south Brittany up to the Scots borders. The Coast series has just visited the Brittany coast, and mentioned an island credited as Avalon. Another archaeological site linked to Arthur is up near Hardian's wall. Certainly more than a Dungeons and Dragons story.

McMike
08-13-2010, 01:07 PM
If there were a time machine that's one of the first times and places I'd visit.

headonz
08-13-2010, 07:20 PM
Just about to start into Stephen Oppenheimers "The Origins of the British"

mtDNA ... a genetic detective story.

an excerpt

'Now Stephen Oppenheimer’s groundbreaking genetic research has revealed that the ‘Anglo-Saxon invasion’ contributed only a tiny fraction to the English gene pool. In fact, three quarters of English people can trace an unbroken line of genetic descent through their parental genes from settlers arriving long before the introduction of farming.

Synthesizing the genetic evidence with linguistics, archaeology and the historical record, Oppenheimer shows how long-term Scandinavian trade and immigration contributed the remaining quarter – mostly before the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons. These migrations may have introduced the earliest forms of English.

And what of the Celts we know – the Irish, Scots and Welsh? Scholars have traditionally placed their origins in Iron Age Central Europe, but Oppenheimer’s new data clearly show that the Welsh, Irish and other Atlantic fringe peoples derive from Ice Age refuges in the Basque country and Spain.'

http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/origins_of_the_british.html

LeeG
08-13-2010, 11:20 PM
now this is a fun thread,

purri
08-14-2010, 06:46 AM
Celts were apparently displaced from mittel Europa settling in Spain and subsequently moving through (now) France to the northern islands (Pomgolia etc)

purri
08-14-2010, 07:01 AM
AMongst other matters his narrative on Australian rock art is crap.

purri
08-14-2010, 08:52 PM
and pasta.

Pugwash
08-14-2010, 08:55 PM
and pasta.

Unlikely. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasta#History)