View Full Version : New To Forum and New boat. Full of Questions and ????
08-07-2010, 12:42 AM
I have been lurking in the shadows on hear reading your tips to everyone and all the great advice you all have. I am in Everett Washington and am just getting started working on my first wooden boat project. It is a 1957 Ben Seaborn Seirra 26'. It is the shipyard pre t-bird version of the t-bird. All dimensions and specs are the same as a t-bird. It is also Plank built and round chine insted of hard chine and plywood like most expect of the t-bird.
Where I am at now is working on a materials list while working on getting it moved. I have experiance in furniture building as well as a few ceder strip kayaks so Not compleatly inept but still scratching my head sometimes. Also a little more backBround on me I am a full time auto mechanic and part time blacksmith so I got anything metal on her covered for the most part.
So on to a few question I have. The origanal frames (ribs?) are 1"X1.25" Steam bent White Oak. They have a few problems with Rot and fasteners pulling out. So the question is If you were in my shoes do you stick with the white Oak or Replace the problem frames with say African Mahogany? I was reading about Black Walnut and it sounds like a promising option?
Was planning on laminating these frames on a jig then installing them. Could I put a strip of fiberglass tape in there without pissing off the wood boat gods? Would that help any at all? I have made a kayak paddle this way and it is very strong even works as a bat!
Sorry if I included too much info but, I always see the Senior members asking where people are and more about what they know so I figured I would put it all out there. I also included a photo of Kohinoor. Hope it worked it took me 20min to figure out.
Thanks for everyones help and guidance.
08-07-2010, 01:17 AM
Hello Nick! Great to have a blacksmith around :)
Wishing you'd live some closer. All I can make is knife blades and lousy mast bands.
Greetings from Finland
08-07-2010, 07:45 AM
Interesting boat, and I don't remember seeing her around when I was moored in Everett. I raced a T-bird for a while, too, and would have liked to have seen this!
Contact James McMullen, here on the forum, or up in Anacortes at Emerald Marine Carpentry, for some expert advice on repairing your baby.
I can't help you on the rib advice, except to say that there are glueing issues with white oak - do some research. It steam bends very well, though!
08-07-2010, 08:18 AM
laminations are better, less likely to crack ever again. but messier to work with, wear gloves.
oak is strong wood. even laminated red oak should be ok, so much glue will get all over them they wont rot, plus just paint them after they are in.
cut them into thin strips (from 1/8 to 1/4 depends on how much bend needed, you can make them wider too), the oak will easily bend to follow the contour.
08-07-2010, 10:52 AM
*Antti-- Thanks and shipping can be cheeper than having some one who dosent know what they are doing make something several times. Learned that one the hard way!
* Dave-- She has been in the storage lot in Everett for about a year. ( I know all dried up and need to jack out the spots to re-fare the hull where she has set on the stands too long.) I have talked to James and gave him some photos of Kohinoor. Just waiting to hear back from him!! Glad to hear a recomendation though! Kohinoor (origanal name) will be around for awhile and I will post more pics when I find a way that dosent take an hour per pic.
* sdowney717-- I have done some laminating with the kayaks I have built. I am still scrapping Epoxy off the shop floor. Now after another kayak it may just be a permenant floor covering! I have been wondering more about the White Oak vs. African Mahogany vs. Black Walnut?
08-07-2010, 11:18 AM
Witch rises my next question while I am hear.
The hull planking is .75" cedar, Bronze screw fastened. There are a few spots in need of repair. Mostly at the Transom and where the end-o-plank joints are (where the butt blocks are. Sorry this is where my lack of terminoligy comes in!) most of the cedar is in good shape but I am wondering...
Red??? Yellow??? Or just go with some VG doug fir?
Also.. she has "splinned" "Wegde" seams. (little pieces of wood glued into the seams) After having a very knowlegable guy name David from Nexus Marine come look at her and My reasarch on Monson boat builders (where she was built) it seems that this is how it was origanaly built! I am ok with that.
My question is these wedge pieces would be the same material as the hull?? Or something softer? I am just assuming that you wouldnt want them to be anything harder than the hull material. Not familiar with this typ of hull.
08-07-2010, 01:12 PM
Red or Yellow cedar will be your best bet for plank repair. The original oak frames were steamed in? This means they "follow" the boat, they probably are not square to the keel. Meaning, it would be easiest to laminate new frames in the same places the old ones were. If you laminate them on a jig, they would need beveling (inside and out, a real PITA)and then they would not all line up with existing fastening holes. If you CAN get Alaska Yellow, I think it is EXCELLENT for frames, better than oak. It is kosher to bump the frame scantlings a bit, in fact, lots of advantages. Lets see some bigger pics, (good luck with that). T Birds are the most under rated ,undervalued boat I've ever seen, yours may have a bit more value due to its' pedigree! Don't sweat the splining,yet.
08-07-2010, 03:41 PM
White Oak vs. African Mahogany vs. Black Walnut
hmmm, oak is likely the best wood for frames. I just think it is generally stronger and springier wood.
I have used african mahogany but mostly for planking and some door frame repairs.
I have never used black walnut in the boat, I have repaired some BW piano benches.
yeah bump up the sizes whatever you do. I suppose there is a reason they have used so much oak in framing boats over the years.
you will find everyone has an idea about using what wood, how and where
cedar planks sound good to me
08-08-2010, 07:24 PM
All good points. And thanks that is a good link!
it seems alot of people try a new wood or a new method and wind up right back to the tried and true way of doing things.
I think I will spend a little more effort working and a little less time trying to find a easyer way! HAHA.
I do like the yellow Cedar frames Idea though. I think that is something I will be doing in places where the whole frame is in need of replacement.
The size of the replacement frames will deffinatly be bumped up some. Seems small even to a novice like me.
Dose anyone have any experiance with having there boat appraised after such repairs? Is it going to make a differance to a survayor if I have a laminated cedar or laminated White oak frame in the place of a
08-08-2010, 07:39 PM
I think a boat that is not sistered and has nice looking frames and planking is obviously worth more based on appearances.
With dollar valuations, appearance means most, functionality less.
Between laminated and steam bent mixes, I dont think it has much bearing except that laminated frames might be considered better since they are less likely to break in the future.
If the framing is a hodge podge mix of short sisters, half rotten and broken frames left in place , I would think it would not be as desirable to a buyer.
But realistically, how much is some buyer willing to pay for an old wooden boat anyhow?
08-09-2010, 07:48 AM
I just finished reframing my 32' boat. I laminated oak frames with West System epoxy. Laminating frames is actually pretty easy once you get the hang of it. Toward the end it took me about 45 minutes to laminate a frame. I made up a jig on a temporary bench (2x10s bolted to 2x4 cross pieces sitting on saw horses). The frame shape was made from 2" long pieces of wood bolted to the 2x10s at about 10" spacing. I used cheap plastic sheet to keep the frame frames from sticking to the jig. I used red oak for the frames because I couldn't get white oak locally. I ripped it into 5/16+" thick strips to laminate my 1.75" wide by 1.5" thick frames. I used five strips per frame. The frames were glued together with West 105/205 thickened with 403 microfibers. After lamination, I ran the frames through my surface plane and then put three coats of interlux bilgecote on everything but faying surfaces (surfaces to be glued). The oldest frames have been in the boat for nearly three years with no sign of deterioration. Before installing the new frames, I bunged all the screw holes with a 3/8" bung from the inside and a 1/2" bung from the ourside. During installation, I laid the frames in place, traced its outline, removed it then predrilled the screw holes in the planking. All bungs were set in epoxy.
Incidentally, bevelling the frames to match the planking is a snap with a power plane.
On various projects I have used both vertical grain doug fir and western red cedar. I found the cedar easier to work with. The fir was quite tough to put on the boat even with the steamer. The planking in the picture below is 7/8" vertical grain doug fir.
If you plank with western red cedar, I would use western red cedar splines.
You can check out my work at: http://www.todddunnmicroyachts.com/tortuga/rebuilding_tortuga.html
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