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S&S.
08-02-2010, 10:19 AM
Our horn timber is built up of several thicknesses of white oak. Although the boat has been in the water for a month or so and has (hopefully) fully taken up, we're still getting seeping around a spot where the one of the bolts goes through the timber. I can't tell if it's just the bolt hole or if it's seeping along the rabbet but was wondering if there were any suggestions. The boat is coming out in a couple of weeks and I could attend to it then. We wet store in the winter so a "bone dry" bilge would be a big plus.

wizbang 13
08-02-2010, 10:49 AM
When you say "several thicknesses" do you mean it is laminated or sawn and overlapped or several pieces of grown timber. Is it a new addition or original, and has it always done this? Got stopwaters? I suppose you would want to figure out which it is, bolt hole or seam or pesky deadwood leak. Bone dry is ALWAYS a plus!

S&S.
08-02-2010, 10:56 AM
When you say "several thicknesses" do you mean it is laminated or sawn and overlapped or several pieces of grown timber. Is it a new addition or original, and has it always done this? Got stopwaters? I suppose you would want to figure out which it is, bolt hole or seam or pesky deadwood leak. Bone dry is ALWAYS a plus!

Based on the way the rest of the boat is put together, I'd think laminated. But there are bolts holding the layers together. I'd be surprised if there is much glue left after 50 years.

John Boone
08-02-2010, 11:41 AM
Welcome to the WBF S&S. Have you got any photos of your issue that you can post for us to take a look at?

Regards, John

wizbang 13
08-02-2010, 11:53 AM
Yea Man!pics pics!

S&S.
08-02-2010, 01:08 PM
Thanks!
I can take some. From the inside (lazarette) it's just wet (nothing obvious) From the outside there's nothing to see as the whole area is faired :confused: What should I be taking pics of?

wizbang 13
08-02-2010, 01:40 PM
Lets' see how the boat is built. Fer instance, the bolted /laminated frames. Horn timber is (usually) out of the water so there is a little mystery. How are we planked/fastened. Have you posted pics here before ?un check the little green check in the little box! Lets try and figure out what glue is used, cuz it's another little mystery when you say "not much glue left"

S&S.
08-02-2010, 02:46 PM
OK. The frames and (as best i can guess) horn timber and stem are laminated white oak.There are bronze bolts holding these pieces together as well as the usual stem-to keel connection etc. The planking is strange- two layers of Honduras glued together and then there is a third layer of mahogany plywood glued to the planking between the frames and screwed from the inside out. the outer two layers are bronze screwed to the frames in a pretty convetional way. There is no conventional caulking but just a thin layer of "something" (60's wonder-goo?) between the outer planks. The inside was coated with polyester(?) resin when the boat was built. Floors are mostly bronze with a couple of wood floors thrown in for grins. Each frame pair has a floor.

Here's some shots from some work I did elsewhere on the hull:


Planking sample:
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t144/yachtie/5-20fairing002.jpg

As you can see the horn timber runs from the transom all the way down to the keel in one piece. Each "lamination" is about 8/4 but is bent into a curve from the counter down.
View down the lazarette- you can see the layer of plywood. Further up where the seeping is, the ply runs all the way in to the timber (the hole is for the shaft log- that and those two frame heels is what i replaced):

You can see a lower one of the bolts in this shot.

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t144/yachtie/5-06PropTube014.jpg


Little green check in the check box???

S&S.
08-03-2010, 12:48 PM
Nothing? Oh well.

Thx. :)

John Boone
08-03-2010, 01:58 PM
Patience S&S........It's only been a few days since your inquiry:D

I chased a similar leak for quite awhile before figuring out the issue. I thought I had seepage around one of the bolts but the water was showing as a small weep on the face of the shaft log..

Last year during haulout, I pulled out the flooring in my lazarette and found that my seepage was a small leak around the bronze tube in the tail feather that the rudder shaft comes up through.

As this area was hidden from easy view, I failed to notice the slight seepage. The water would run down the face of the tail feather, wetting the top of one of the bolts and and then disappear into a check in the top of the timber and then resurface out the face of the shaft log.

It was not much water, 1-2 gallons of saltwater per month, but it drove me mad until I tracked it down and corrected the issue. Now I enjoy a dry bilge.

Not bad for a 48 yr old vessel.

I can't tell enough from your photos so far to offer much help. I'm sorry.

Persistence paid off for me. I would check everywhere up hill from your leak to verify you don't have a similar situation.

Regards, John

wizbang 13
08-03-2010, 03:48 PM
I can't tell much from the photos either.

S&S.
08-03-2010, 03:54 PM
Patience S&S........It's only been a few days since your inquiry:D

I chased a similar leak for quite awhile before figuring out the issue. I thought I had seepage around one of the bolts but the water was showing as a small weep on the face of the shaft log..

Last year during haulout, I pulled out the flooring in my lazarette and found that my seepage was a small leak around the bronze tube in the tail feather that the rudder shaft comes up through.

As this area was hidden from easy view, I failed to notice the slight seepage. The water would run down the face of the tail feather, wetting the top of one of the bolts and and then disappear into a check in the top of the timber and then resurface out the face of the shaft log.

It was not much water, 1-2 gallons of saltwater per month, but it drove me mad until I tracked it down and corrected the issue. Now I enjoy a dry bilge.

Not bad for a 48 yr old vessel.

I can't tell enough from your photos so far to offer much help. I'm sorry.

Persistence paid off for me. I would check everywhere up hill from your leak to verify you don't have a similar situation.

Regards, John

Thanks, John. No worries.

That's the plan- wood the hull along the timber and apply sealant. What i'm debating is whether I should open the seams where the timber is laminated and caulk there too. I already did the keel to garboard and keel to deadwood seams and that got most of the seeping a couple of years ago (PO used silicone:rolleyes:- pulled it out in one long strip!) .

This year was the stern tube ( a novel in itself) and I'm down to just this (and yes, it's driving me nuts) a pint a week, every week and it isn't going away- being in fresh water it's more of a problem.

The problem with photos is that there's not much to see. I've found the highest point where it's wet and the timber around the bolt and seam are damp. Not much to photograph.

Bill Griffin
08-03-2010, 03:58 PM
We need more pics! what is the boat? welcome to the forum

S&S.
08-03-2010, 04:22 PM
We need more pics! what is the boat? welcome to the forum

Thanks!

Here ya' go- In all her glory: (she's really a yawl- mizzen is down for this pic) she's a one- off (built in '63)

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t144/yachtie/IMG_1808.jpg

John B
08-03-2010, 04:37 PM
Chasing leaks like that is difficult. The best times are when you haul, you inspect really closely for weeps( the exits), and the really best time ... when you launch. I'd get in the bilge after a nice long dry out and really watch hard to see where the water came in, tracked from. I chased a garboard leak for a year or two until I found it was actually the rudder tube:rolleyes:. I also set up sponge dams and mopped up along the bilge to isolate areas to try and understand the track.
I agree with the others regarding looking very closely at the piercings first ie the rudder tube and shaft log and surrounds. Through bolts will show some evidence outside. One of the old tricks I was put onto is to sacrifice a grease gun to pump in a mix along a track. IE say a bolt you can't remove, you drill a pilot hole to to take the gun male fitting ( usually you unscrew the zerk fitting end to find it) and VERY carefully pump your mix in. The old guys used a mix of white lead , linseed oil and maybe some turps to thin it. I couldn't get that so I made a mix of mastic thinned with turps and with some metalex added for the poison element. There's art to it,hydraulics are powerfull and if you overdo it you can blow a joint or a plank off. Its particularly suited to our multi skin mechanically fastened boats but may be applicable to you in say that bolt type area.

S&S.
08-03-2010, 04:46 PM
Thanks! I't's above the shaft log and it's dry around the rudder gland. Checking for weeps sounds like a good idea but if I were to let her dry out she leaks like a sieve when she goes in (plank seams mostly) until she takes up. I'll give some thought to the grease gun idea - wonder if that would work for between the timber pieces?

Vinny&Shawn
08-03-2010, 05:39 PM
From Pete Cullers, bookhttp://i419.photobucket.com/albums/pp278/vgeorge1/PeteCuller.jpg?t=1280875116

Lew Barrett
08-03-2010, 07:36 PM
Good post, thanks Vinny&Shawn!

Vinny&Shawn
08-03-2010, 07:59 PM
Thanks Lew,we use tallow in alot of applications and I like to render it myself.

botebum
08-03-2010, 08:03 PM
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t144/yachtie/IMG_1808.jpgThat seepage is definitely the end of her. I can tell by the above pic that she's doomed, a goner. Send me your address and I'll come by and take her off your hands. In a few days you won't even remember this living nightmare.
I'm here to help.

Doug

Feazer
08-03-2010, 08:06 PM
Back off a bit on the backstay and keep an eye on it. Tallow is the real deal but you have to know how to use it with a special funnel and of course know the approximate source of the problem. A horn timber by it's very nature can offer several points of ingress and even more when rigging loads are applied in conjunction with the forces associated with reserve bouyancy. There really is not enough information here for an educated guess especially with a lovely hull such as this sporting a moderately long counter and I suspect a tallish rig.

Lew Barrett
08-03-2010, 08:14 PM
Great to see and hear from you Feazer! And isn't she a beauty!

Jay Greer
08-03-2010, 08:19 PM
OK, here is the time proven cure for your problem, providing the leak is coming from a drift or through the bolt. Once the boat is hauled and blocked up, remove the nut and washer from the leaking bolt, build a dam of modeling clay, ducting tape or other moldable material around the bolt and pour melted tallow into the area around the bolt. Then place a strand of unravelled flax shaft packing around the bolt under the washer. Take up on the nut and trust the cure till next haul out. If that doesn't help then post me for more info.
Jay

S&S.
08-04-2010, 08:16 AM
Back off a bit on the backstay and keep an eye on it. Tallow is the real deal but you have to know how to use it with a special funnel and of course know the approximate source of the problem. A horn timber by it's very nature can offer several points of ingress and even more when rigging loads are applied in conjunction with the forces associated with reserve bouyancy. There really is not enough information here for an educated guess especially with a lovely hull such as this sporting a moderately long counter and I suspect a tallish rig.

At present, neither mast is stepped. I'm liking this tallow idea :D


Great to see and hear from you Feazer! And isn't she a beauty!

Thank you Sir!


OK, here is the time proven cure for your problem, providing the leak is coming from a drift or through the bolt. Once the boat is hauled and blocked up, remove the nut and washer from the leaking bolt, build a dam of modeling clay, ducting tape or other moldable material around the bolt and pour melted tallow into the area around the bolt. Then place a strand of unravelled flax shaft packing around the bolt under the washer. Take up on the nut and trust the cure till next haul out. If that doesn't help then post me for more info.
Jay

Is this a "permanent" fix? or just a hold over ?
Thanks!

S&S.
08-04-2010, 08:18 AM
That seepage is definitely the end of her. I can tell by the above pic that she's doomed, a goner. Send me your address and I'll come by and take her off your hands. In a few days you won't even remember this living nightmare.
I'm here to help.

Doug


LOL... not quite there yet...

Noah
08-04-2010, 08:48 AM
One trick I used to trace a leak was taking a gallon milk jug (full of milk) and punching a few holes it in. I watched in the boat and had a helper swim under the boat and squeeze out the milk. It weeped through the leak, and was very easy to trace to exactly where the issue was on the inside of the boat.

Vinny&Shawn
08-04-2010, 02:52 PM
Basically you can see the issue on the inside of the boat thats where we all see the leaks. Where they enter is the mystery?

S&S.
08-04-2010, 03:20 PM
Basically you can see the issue on the inside of the boat thats where we all see the leaks. Where they enter is the mystery?

Well, I guess as long as they stop before getting inside.... it's not really an issue. I'm interested in this tallow idea- is it permanent? If not, I'm back to my previous plan.

Jay Greer
08-04-2010, 05:16 PM
Yes, hot tallow is more perminant than any other quick fix I have tried.
Jay

Garret
08-04-2010, 05:27 PM
Yes, hot tallow is more perminant than any other quick fix I have tried.
Jay

Does that translate to "kinda sorta maybe"? :D

Beautiful boat, by the way!

S&S.
08-05-2010, 08:48 AM
Yes, hot tallow is more perminant than any other quick fix I have tried.
Jay

OK. Worth a try. Thanks! I did a lot of lead work from my plumbing days so I have an idea how to do it.


Does that translate to "kinda sorta maybe"? :D

Beautiful boat, by the way!

Thank you. :D

Bernadette
08-05-2010, 07:01 PM
i have a related question:

when 'sealing' around a stern tube, in the past i have used hot paraffin poured in from an access point at the highest level. the problem with that is, the paraffin most likely gets cold before it gets to fill the entire cavity between stern tube and timber. so im wondering if the above suggestion to use tallow would be useful in my application? any comments would be appreciated.

wizbang 13
08-05-2010, 09:23 PM
.... have "we" even found the leak?

S&S.
08-06-2010, 11:03 AM
.... have "we" even found the leak?

Well, it's either the bolt (tallow solution) or the garboard to rabbet (5200 solution). I'll do both :D

Jay Greer
08-06-2010, 11:26 AM
Paraffin is a poor choice as it quickly solidifys, does not stick and does not remain flexable as tallow does.
Jay

sdowney717
08-06-2010, 12:33 PM
drill a hole and pump in lithium water resistant grease?
not sure how the wood will like grease long term.

or

use pl premium poly construction adhesive with sawdust, it expands, swells up as it cures and is waterproof.
needs clean wood to stick, no greasy stuff. It will build or bulkup wood spaces, cracks and holes and you can sand it fair.

http://www.stickwithpl.com/Products.aspx%3fID=fef65cc9-47bf-4802-aaa9-a343f2ef9458

with sawdust in the mix, it will harden in thick layers as it needs moisture to cure. It swells and presses into the wood filling up the voids.

I also like the sikaflex grey concrete crack polyurethane self leveling sealant. Forms a nice rubbery soft connection between wood and it flows like a thinned honey.
thicker than water and thinner than honey, like a thick oil.

S&S.
08-06-2010, 12:44 PM
drill a hole and pump in lithium water resistant grease?
not sure how the wood will like grease long term.

or

use pl premium poly construction adhesive with sawdust, it expands, swells up as it cures and is waterproof.
needs clean wood to stick, no greasy stuff. It will build or bulkup wood spaces, cracks and holes and you can sand it fair.

http://www.stickwithpl.com/Products.aspx%3fID=fef65cc9-47bf-4802-aaa9-a343f2ef9458

with sawdust in the mix, it will harden in thick layers as it needs moisture to cure. It swells and presses into the wood filling up the voids.

I also like the sikaflex grey concrete crack polyurethane self leveling sealant. Forms a nice rubbery soft connection between wood and it flows like a thinned honey.
thicker than water and thinner than honey, like a thick oil.

Hmmm. I do have that Sika product (left over from a concrete job) How well does it stick to wood?

I'm thinking grease will just eventually flow back into the boat (and now I'd have a greasy timber that nothing else will stick to).

sdowney717
08-06-2010, 01:09 PM
sticks very well to wood and is very flexible. It also sets up quick by next day.
Many of these moisture cured products like the polyurethanes are pretty good glues and sealers.

That sika flows very well. It will go just where the water would have gone.

Likely you should let it dry out somewhat first before using it.

sdowney717
08-06-2010, 01:16 PM
just thinking again, you could drill small holes and inject that stuff into the timbers if you wanted it in a certain place.

When i buy it, I buy the large 30 oz cartridges at HD for about $12, much cheaper than the little 10 oz ones for $6

S&S.
08-23-2010, 09:20 AM
What I did:

I drilled an angled hole that intersected the bolt and pumped 5200 in there until it came out from the side of the bolt away from the hole. We'll see how that works.

At some point, I'll have to pull the bolt and see what's going on- but not this year. (I'd have to remove the rudder, and the bronze "groove" the forward edge of the rudder sits in to get to it). I have the R&R of the rudder lined up for 2 years out and I'll look at it again then.

:)

sdowney717
08-23-2010, 08:31 PM
Pulling the bolt with 5200 on it might be hard to do unless it is heated up pretty hot.
Heat will break the bond.
Bronze likely will conduct the heat throughout the bolt.

I have read there is some chemical you can use to loosen 5200.

S&S.
08-24-2010, 11:03 AM
Pulling the bolt with 5200 on it might be hard to do unless it is heated up pretty hot.
Heat will break the bond.
Bronze likely will conduct the heat throughout the bolt.

I have read there is some chemical you can use to loosen 5200.

yeah, De-Bond. it's easy enough to heat the bolt with a torch (did that to dry the hole before i put in the 5200 (sizzle))