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View Full Version : The ACLU has little hope of seeing change.



nw_noob
07-29-2010, 11:30 AM
It seems I'm not the only one who's concerned about President Obama's track record so far.

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/establishing-new-normal

Where did all the angry liberals go? Become disillusioned already geez.

Kaa
07-29-2010, 12:54 PM
It's a funny thing -- if you start pointing out to the local lefties how Obama failed with the whole hope-and-change idea, they start telling you they never expected anything of him anyway :D

Kaa

Captain Blight
07-29-2010, 01:18 PM
Not as funny as the perplexity and befuddlement at why Libruls don't exactly square up with the archetypical perception of what a Librul is and does.

I expect great things from the man. But 'Great' is not the same thing as 'Good' and it's probably worth hauling out that hoary old chestnut of an analogy, Edison's search for the light bulb. Not everything the man does is going to be in lockstep with my ideology, and I understand that. He represents us all, and part of that is doing things that benefit the greater good, the citizenry as a whole, some of which may not necessarily help me along.

I'm still okay with the guy. There are some things I wish would change, but overall, I still 'strongly approve' of his leadership.

Curtism
07-29-2010, 02:44 PM
What did you gals elect him for again?

I can't speak for the ladies, but I thought he'd make a nice 3D thank you card for 12 years of Bush's and Cheney.

nw_noob
07-29-2010, 03:10 PM
Not as funny as the perplexity and befuddlement at why Libruls don't exactly square up with the archetypical perception of what a Librul is and does.

Well I know for sure now what some librals do; they will march in the streets and wear hoods and orange jumpsuits to protest the heinous crap Bush was doing, but quit once their guy gets elected and does the same crap. That's not an archetype. That's reality. Oh, I'm not perplexed or befuddled either, I'm saddened by it. Where are the cries of "fascist!", "warmonger!", "torturer!" and "try him for war crimes!"? They are nearly non-existent, that's where.



I expect great things from the man. But 'Great' is not the same thing as 'Good' and it's probably worth hauling out that hoary old chestnut of an analogy, Edison's search for the light bulb. Not everything the man does is going to be in lockstep with my ideology, and I understand that. He represents us all, and part of that is doing things that benefit the greater good, the citizenry as a whole, some of which may not necessarily help me along.

I'm still okay with the guy. There are some things I wish would change, but overall, I still 'strongly approve' of his leadership.

The only ideology I care about is his own. He's pulled a complete 180 from his stance while campaigning and has embraced the same positions he railed against. I had some hope that as prez, he'd put a stop to the more shameful and inhumane Bush policy's. Sadly he's proven himself to be little more than an empty suit.

Jon Stewart has him pegged... 'Respect mah Authoritah' (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-15-2010/respect-my-authoritah)

Captain Blight
07-29-2010, 03:17 PM
Noob, you're talking about anarchists. Anarchists aren't Democrats, by definition. they're anarchists. Saying they represent the liberal ideology makes no more sense than saying the KKK represents the Conservative side of things.

nw_noob
07-29-2010, 03:47 PM
Not all of the people in the streets were the extreme left, they were grandma's, soccer moms, and lots of ordinary folks who just believed that torture and indefinite detention is just plain wrong and un-American. Maybe those who volunteered themselves to be arrested for the cause were anarchists, but there's no way to escape the fact that regular ol' Americans made up the bulk of the crowds. The mainstream liberals pundits wrote and talked about this stuff with great vigor too, but now for the most part we hear crickets.

Here are a couple of videos of your "anarchists":

Code Pink protest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh6Un-k5tAg)

Amnesty International protest (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdcX1JOW61c&feature=related)

(oops, that second one isn't in the US, but they are gray-haired granny's marching, so I'll leave it up)

Captain Blight
07-29-2010, 03:54 PM
Not all of it. Some of it. And some of it is from garden-variety liberals like myself. Nothing wrong with marching or waving signs; I believe it is Constitutionally protected a couple of different ways. Jeez, guys, what's wrong with vocalizing support for your beliefs or organizing in common cause? Really? Really?

nw_noob
07-29-2010, 04:27 PM
Not all of it. Some of it. And some of it is from garden-variety liberals like myself. Nothing wrong with marching or waving signs; I believe it is Constitutionally protected a couple of different ways. Jeez, guys, what's wrong with vocalizing support for your beliefs or organizing in common cause? Really? Really?

Nothing's wrong with protests. I'm a right leaning state's-rights kind of guy, yet I fully supported the lefty sign wavers, but where are they today? If anything the streets of DC should be overflowing by now, and I'd try my damnedest to be there myself. However the momentum stopped on election day because Obama said he'd knock this s#it off.

He.
Has.
Not.

The same exact stuff is happening but it's a Democrat doing it, so we're hearing crickets. Torture and indefinite detention are not right-left issues. They are right-wrong issues. Torture is wrong. Condoning torture is wrong. Remaining silent when torture is happening is wrong.

I just want people to realize that this is not the same guy they thought they were voting for, and demand better from him. The louder the better.

(believe it or not Blight, some rightys are also actual civil-libertarians too)

johnw
07-29-2010, 04:46 PM
It seems I'm not the only one who's concerned about President Obama's track record so far.

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/establishing-new-normal

Where did all the angry liberals go? Become disillusioned already geez.
This does worry me. Unfortunately, if I don't like it, who am I to vote for? The Republicans claim to be all about freedom, but where were they when Bush was trashing the bill of rights? I'm skeptical of the effectiveness of protests, but if there's no one to vote for that would give us a better result, what am I supposed to do?

Remember, it was the Punic wars that killed the Roman Republic. War fever swept away many of the usual rules. And here we are, with politicians whipping up peoples' fears to get elected, claiming if you won't do this or won't support that violation of the bill of rights, you're soft on our enemies.

One reason things got so bad during the Bush administration was that partisans on the Right were unwilling to criticize him. I've seen far more criticism of Obama from the left, but the insiders in the defense and intelligence community seem to have more clout.

Captain Blight
07-29-2010, 05:59 PM
Nothing's wrong with protests. I'm a right leaning state's-rights kind of guy, yet I fully supported the lefty sign wavers, but where are they today? If anything the streets of DC should be overflowing by now, and I'd try my damnedest to be there myself. However the momentum stopped on election day because Obama said he'd knock this s#it off.

He.
Has.
Not.

The same exact stuff is happening but it's a Democrat doing it, so we're hearing crickets. Torture and indefinite detention are not right-left issues. They are right-wrong issues. Torture is wrong. Condoning torture is wrong. Remaining silent when torture is happening is wrong.

I just want people to realize that this is not the same guy they thought they were voting for, and demand better from him. The louder the better.

(believe it or not Blight, some rightys are also actual civil-libertarians too)Well, shoot. Honest to Crom, it'd be a lot easier for me to agree with you if the subtext wasn't that I'm a chump for having voted for him. And it's for me a matter of... I don't know what it's called. "Trust" isn't it, not exactly. Good faith, maybe. I want to believe that indefinite detention and extraordinary rendition (n.b.: I am very torn on the issues of waterboarding, sleep deprivation, and other enhanced-interrogation techniques. I just can't be that absolutist about it. And I would like to think that the oversight of what gets done to whom is a little tighter than it was under Bush's watch.) will not continue to be extraordinarily indefinite, that we can look forward to an end at some point. I want to think that diplomacy, especially soldierly diplomacy, will win the day. I do definitely think that the military is operating in a culture, now, where this sort of thing is being guided onto a more righteous path. It sure isn't simple.


This does worry me. Unfortunately, if I don't like it, who am I to vote for? The Republicans claim to be all about freedom, but where were they when Bush was trashing the bill of rights? I'm skeptical of the effectiveness of protests, but if there's no one to vote for that would give us a better result, what am I supposed to do?

Remember, it was the Punic wars that killed the Roman Republic. War fever swept away many of the usual rules. And here we are, with politicians whipping up peoples' fears to get elected, claiming if you won't do this or won't support that violation of the bill of rights, you're soft on our enemies.

One reason things got so bad during the Bush administration was that partisans on the Right were unwilling to criticize him. I've seen far more criticism of Obama from the left, but the insiders in the defense and intelligence community seem to have more clout.I'd like to expand on this: If we could back off the snottiness, just in general, if we could fight the urge to demonize our friends and neighbors and co-workers because they have different views on the allocation of tax monies, if we could try to find some middle ground, we might maybe get somewhere.

One of the Downunda contingent said yesterday that we're in big trouble and we can't even talk about it. They're right. We have got to find a middle ground. We have got to see the beauty of grey. (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?85219-The-Beauty-of-Gray)

The ship has fraying tiller ropes and two different minds on the relieving-tackles. The rudder hasn't carried away yet, but we are on a lee shore on an ironbound coast, in irons, and I am hearing the breakers on the rocks.

Come ON, guys, can we please put some of this petty one-upmanship aside and talk? PLEASE?

pjmsj21
07-29-2010, 06:05 PM
0 is pushing for warrantless searches of email. Funny gitmo is still open, we still have two wars blazing and gays can't openly serve in the military. What did you gals elect him for again?

Well first the game isn't over yet...actually isnt even half time yet. But I voted for him to pull the country out of the crisis it was in. We are out of the most severe part of the crisis but no one, himself included is saying we are out of the woods but the worst is over. I think he has accomplished a great deal of what he said he would, but not all. Included are 1) Healthcare reform 2) financial reform to address many of the things that Wall street did to put us in a crisis. 3) Dealt with the auto industry crisis that if allowed to fail would have resulted in the likely financial colapse of the country......GM is now making a profit as opposed to it's continued degradation under previous administrations 4) oversaw TARP which is costing far less than originally anticipated.

Gitmo would be closed if a few of the Republicans would allow it....even John McCain (as I recall) was for closing.

So from my perspective and still many others he has done alot. I dont agree with everything he has done. I still think credit is not available to many small businesses and he needs to place a higher priority on job creation from business.

But all in all the guy has got more big things accomplished than just about any President. You likely dont like some or maybe all of these things but he hasnt failed to act.

Pat Mc

nw_noob
07-29-2010, 06:10 PM
Well, shoot. Honest to Crom, it'd be a lot easier for me to agree with you if the subtext wasn't that I'm a chump for having voted for him.

I'd like to expand on this: If we could back off the snottiness, just in general, if we could fight the urge to demonize our friends and neighbors and co-workers because they have different views on the allocation of tax monies, if we could try to find some middle ground, we might maybe get somewhere.

Come ON, guys, can we please put some of this petty one-upmanship aside and talk? PLEASE?

Blight, that was not my intended subtext, and I sincerely apologize if I've given that impression. Nobody called anyone a chump either. I believed him too when he said he'd change these policy's. All I'm saying now is that it is democrats that he needs for re-election, so it's democrats who need to stop giving him a free pass and demand better.

As for civil discourse, I'm all for it. Believe me, I'm equally disgusted by Republicans on a near daily basis.

nw_noob
07-29-2010, 06:14 PM
johnw asked for solutions, here's what I've got:

As I see it step #1 is to demand better from the press. Most people are ignorant of what's really going on because one must seek out fringe news sources from both right and left leaning/biased sources and independently verify accuracy to be fully informed these days. The major networks and publishers have cut back on actual reporting to the point that all they really report is what the press releases tell them to. This leaves people thinking that the status quo is ok even when it is not. It also ensures that the things the govt. wants to keep secret remain secret.

Step #2: get mad (you will be)

Step #3 demand better from our politicians, and demand that heads roll (figuratively of course) when they are up to no good. We should demand criminal prosecution for corporate criminals as well. The '80's S&L crisis saw bankers going to jail by the hundreds, I'm unaware of any bankers facing prosecution in this current crisis.

Let me re-enforce point #1:

How many of you heard the story a month or so ago about the soldier in Iraq who went to the medics after being in a vehicle that was hit by a roadside bomb so he could be treated for his classic PTSD symptoms (migraines, night terrors, incapacitating fear, the works) only to be locked up in solitary confinement for a month? He says he was incarcerated, harshly interrogated, berated, and coerced until he would sign a paper that said he had a "personality disorder" prior to enlisting. He held out for a full month before signing. Apparently getting soldiers to admit to having a pre-existing "personality disorder" will preclude them from receiving proper VA benefits when they arrive back stateside. Instances of soldiers choosing to disclose this after being injured has apparently risen sharply in the last year or so. Anybody hear that one? Probably not many of you because the only place I saw it was on HuffPo for one day (I could be wrong, it might have been a Democracy Now broadcast), and there was little follow up reporting or mainstream interest in the story.

How many of you heard about the small town mayor in Virginia (IIRC) who called up the local national guard base when he wanted to bolster his police force for crowd control on the day of a scheduled protest. His request was granted, despite this being illegal as it violates of the Posse Comitatus Act. Nobody heard that one either? That's because the story only ran in the local paper, and I found it on an independent news channel on YouTube.

This kind of stuff is happening almost daily if you just look for it, but CNN and NBC would rather tell you what Brad and Angelina are up to this week. Just for kicks, lets wait a day or two and see how much major media coverage this ACLU story gets. I found it on a lefty news site.

A bunch of talking heads perpetuating the right vs left divide is not a legitimate free press, it serves to undermine it. We must demand better.

Captain Blight
07-29-2010, 06:20 PM
Okay. I am in agreement 100%.

It's a start. Anything else? I am all ears.

nw_noob
07-29-2010, 06:23 PM
Anything else what? More solutions or more news story's?

johnw
07-29-2010, 06:39 PM
johnw asked for solutions, here's what I've got:

As I see it step #1 is to demand better from the press. Most people are ignorant of what's really going on because one must seek out fringe news sources from both right and left leaning/biased sources and independently verify accuracy to be fully informed these days. The major networks and publishers have cut back on actual reporting to the point that all they really report is what the press releases tell them to. This leaves people thinking that the status quo is ok even when it is not. It also ensures that the things the govt. wants to keep secret remain secret.

Step #2: get mad (you will be)

Step #3 demand better from our politicians, and demand that heads roll (figuratively of course) when they are up to no good. We should demand criminal prosecution for corporate criminals as well. The '80's S&L crisis saw bankers going to jail by the hundreds, I'm unaware of any bankers facing prosecution in this current crisis.

Let me re-enforce point #1:

How many of you heard the story a month or so ago about the soldier in Iraq who went to the medics after being in a vehicle that was hit by a roadside bomb so he could be treated for his classic PTSD symptoms (migraines, night terrors, incapacitating fear, the works) only to be locked up in solitary confinement for a month? He says he was incarcerated, harshly interrogated, berated, and coerced until he would sign a paper that said he had a "personality disorder" prior to enlisting. He held out for a full month before signing. Apparently getting soldiers to admit to having a pre-existing "personality disorder" will preclude them from receiving proper VA benefits when they arrive back stateside. Instances of soldiers choosing to disclose this after being injured has apparently risen sharply in the last year or so. Anybody hear that one? Probably not many of you because the only place I saw it was on HuffPo for one day (I could be wrong, it might have been a Democracy Now broadcast), and there was little follow up reporting or mainstream interest in the story.

How many of you heard about the small town mayor in Virginia (IIRC) who called up the local national guard base when he wanted to bolster his police force for crowd control on the day of a scheduled protest. His request was granted, despite this being illegal as it violates of the Posse Comitatus Act. Nobody heard that one either? That's because the story only ran in the local paper, and I found it on an independent news channel on YouTube.

This kind of stuff is happening almost daily if you just look for it, but CNN and NBC would rather tell you what Brad and Angelina are up to this week. Just for kicks, lets wait a day or two and see how much major media coverage this ACLU story gets. I found it on a lefty news site.

A bunch of talking heads perpetuating the right vs left divide is not a legitimate free press, it serves to undermine it. We must demand better.
I don't know how you think Obama relates to the PSTD scandal, but did you see this?

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/07/military_va_ptsd_rules_071010w/

Changing how the Army deals with this means getting a lot of lower-level people to change their act. It may not happen instantly, but it looks like there's some effort in the right direction.

Guantanamo isn't closed because Congress won't allow it.

As for torture, if our government is to be believed at all, that stopped in 2004. The problem is that since no one has been punished for it, what's to keep it from happening again?

It seems to me that the politicians think things like closing Guantanamo and prosecuting those responsible for torture are political losers, which means they think that's not what the voters want. That's the scary thing, maybe they're right. If so, we're really hosed.

nw_noob
07-29-2010, 06:45 PM
The PTSD thing isn't about Obama, it's about news awareness, and the fact that big story's remain untold.

If there is a push to get soldiers to admit to pre-existing conditions, I'd like to see some investigative journalist take it on. The story saw the light of day, then fell back in a hole. It goes to the point I was making about not just watching headline news for a half hour and thinking that you're well informed. You might learn what the cast of Jersey Shore is up to, but you'll likely have no clue that the U.S. still tortures, because the press releases said we don't do that anymore.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Captain Blight
07-29-2010, 06:46 PM
I really wonder if maybe throwing Rachel Maddow and Rush Limbaugh in prison for sedition might help things. Would that send a message that would be heard?

Osborne Russell
07-29-2010, 07:07 PM
It's a funny thing -- if you start pointing out to the local lefties how Obama failed with the whole hope-and-change idea, they start telling you they never expected anything of him anyway :D


For a Red, a president is a messiah, or nothing. The purpose of the constitution is to frustrate them and their messiahs.

Captain Blight
07-29-2010, 07:16 PM
Please don't. No need for that. Could you re-phrase that without the hot-button words?

nw_noob
07-29-2010, 09:32 PM
I really wonder if maybe throwing Rachel Maddow and Rush Limbaugh in prison for sedition might help things. Would that send a message that would be heard?

Rush I'd consider. Maddow's ok in my book, she's a bit condescending, but she doesn't incite outrage for outrage's sake like I see Limbaugh do. Plus I've seen her take on Democrats full force when they're in the wrong. I don't see much equal opportunity ridicule from Rush. Of course I don't watch either on a daily basis, I just see their clips in the blogosphere when they're relevant to the day's news.

Kaa
07-30-2010, 10:09 AM
I really wonder if maybe throwing Rachel Maddow and Rush Limbaugh in prison for sedition might help things. Would that send a message that would be heard?

Oh sure it will send a message.

I personally would interpret it as a pretty clear hint to pack up things and get out of the country.

Kaa

Osborne Russell
07-30-2010, 11:07 AM
Please don't. No need for that. Could you re-phrase that without the hot-button words?

Moi?

nw_noob
07-30-2010, 01:25 PM
As for torture, if our government is to be believed at all, that stopped in 2004. The problem is that since no one has been punished for it, what's to keep it from happening again?


I hate to have to say this John, but they are not to be believed at all on this one. They changed the rules enough to be able to put out a press release saying "look we don't torture anymore", but little has actually changed. It's not a question of keeping it from happening again, it's one of stopping it now. The military may not be water boarding anymore, but guys are still being smacked around, held in stress positions, being sleep deprived, put in little boxes, etc. etc. etc.

The problem is being compounded by the increased use of civilian contractors in both combat and intelligence/black opp's roles. Troops often hand detainees over to mercenary's who don't necessarily play by the same rules as the troops, and have no real oversight to keep them accountable to anyone. Oh, and we still have the issue of rendition of detainees to foreign country's that have no problem torturing people.

They are making it very difficult for me to be proud of my country these days.

johnw
07-30-2010, 01:32 PM
For a Red, a president is a messiah, or nothing. The purpose of the constitution is to frustrate them and their messiahs.
Well it really is strange how conservatives keep crowing about how Obama isn't really the Messiah, when those who voted for him didn't think he was. Bush, on the other hand, spoke of being chosen by God (http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020909/abattle.html) to lead us.