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View Full Version : How often do you think about our soldiers and the war?



bamamick
07-27-2010, 01:15 PM
My dad and I were talking about this the other day. It's almost as if it's not happening if you judge by the behaviour of the vast majority of Americans. How many of us sacrifice anything at all? How many of us does it affect at all?

If this war doesn't concern us they why are our bright young men and women over there, getting killed? Why are we in this war?

I have mentioned my good friend who is a general in the US special forces. I know that some of our great members here have been in Afghanistan recently. My buddy believes that this is a necessary war and that it must be fought because the Taliban has the potential to bring about tremendous change for the worse (from our point of view) in the political and economic climate if left unchecked. But if that's the case, why don't we just fight a damn war and stop letting our kids get killed one at a time?

Does anyone really know what the purpose of this war is?

Mickey Lake

Captain Blight
07-27-2010, 01:21 PM
Empire-building in Afghanistan, apparently. For all the good that's done anyone over the years.

For what it's worth, the Taliban probably won't last long after we pull out, either. Maybe a decade or two.

Paul Pless
07-27-2010, 01:21 PM
How often do you think about our soldiers and the war?

Wow Mickey you make me think hard there. Montgomery is a big military town with two Air Force Bases and centrally located between and within 50 miles or so of three large deployment bases for the Army. When I lived in Alabama I saw friends that are in the military daily, and in public literally dozens each day in uniform. Not so in Michigan. The last person in military uniform that I saw was at the Detroit Airport. Its different here; I'm not making a political commentary, I'm just saying its different.

htom
07-27-2010, 01:29 PM
Daily. I have family and friends deployed in both combat areas, and in other places.

I suspect that most veterans do (both the thinking and the having.)

And praying.

Pugwash
07-27-2010, 01:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jIofWwupLA

Black-Jack
07-27-2010, 01:47 PM
Darn near every day if not everyday. I live near some military bases - its hard not to hear about some of our guys either going over or coming back or getting killed every day over there. I'm currently reading Krakauers story of Pat Tillman.

The war in Afghanistan has turned into a racket for the folks in power. Dems or Repubs it doesnt make a difference.

elf
07-27-2010, 01:55 PM
I see them in Wal*Mart. I want to ask they why they're doing what they're doing. I never get up the courage to do that.

Aside from that, I think about them every day. I think about how many of them are there because there's no work here. I think about the mindset of the large majority of the people who would come back here if we pulled them out of there - 185 thousand people trained to follow orders. And kill other people. Trained to be angry all the time, be outraged, and believe in various types of very repressive religions.

I think about whether we really need that many people here on this continent with those skillsets and no work for them here.

I think about how we are doing no preparation whatsoever to create environments for them where they have to integrate back into a more diverse society, one in which they have to be independent of mind when all so many of them know is to obey and do what they're told.

I think about how we have no jobs for their secondary skillsets (mechanic, computer technician, medic, whatever), and certainly no jobs for their primary skillset as obedient drone. I think about all the scandals in the last 20 years in the medical care field for these people. We can't even agree to properly fund care for them and clearly many of us think it's not their responsiblity to provide medical care for them. 30 years ago we agreed that we wouldn't fund care for those of them who came back unable to deal with the world and dismantled the kinds of facilities we used to have, and eliminated the kinds of jobs we used to have for those poor souls.

I think about how we have gobs of unoccupied housing, but noone seems able to organize the banks to provide it to people who would rent it. I think about how they would be coming back to insufficient funds to pay the rent anyway. I think about old Navy housing down in Truro which the artists on the lower Cape have been trying to pry out of the hands of the military for housing for another group which never has lots of money to rent housing. If we can't do that, how can we take care of all these poor people coming home from such a spiritually demoralizing job?

Every day as I listen to progressive talk radio, I think about the implications of the stuff I hear for these poor suckers who have no choice but to enlist in the military services here in hopes of coming out with a better skillset and not in a coffin.

Black-Jack
07-27-2010, 02:01 PM
I think about the mindset of the large majority of the people who would come back here if we pulled them out of there - 185 thousand people trained to follow orders. And kill other people. Trained to be angry all the time, be outraged, and believe in various types of very repressive religions

seemed to work after WW2 didnt it?

If you want to know why they do what they do, you weren't brought up right. JMO. YMMV

elf
07-27-2010, 02:06 PM
seemed to work after WW2 didnt it?

If you want to know why they do what they do, you weren't brought up right. JMO. YMMV

Not real well. Women went back to being limited in their options, black people still had no respect or good options, we went on a military industrial complex binge which is destroying the planet and has destroyed American labor.

But at least provision was made for the many who ended up unable to deal with the real world.

As for "why", I was brought up quite right, thanks. I was brought up to question the value of the variety of answers to that question to a much wider perspective than patriotism or "love" of country.

Y Bar Ranch
07-27-2010, 02:09 PM
Trained to be angry all the time, be outraged, and believe in various types of very repressive religions.
Huh?

You really should go up to one or twenty and have a conversation.

Paul Pless
07-27-2010, 02:12 PM
Every day as I listen to progressive talk radio. . .is left wing radio really that despondent???

elf
07-27-2010, 02:16 PM
It's not left wing. It's just NPR talk radio - Talk of the Nation, Diane Rehm, Terry Gross. If you are a thinking person, it's really grim.

TomF
07-27-2010, 02:23 PM
Even when they're fighting a war, I don't think about soldiers every day. Any more than I think about school teachers, social workers, paramedics, Coast Guard members or firefighters every day.

Not thinking about them daily isn't a slight - on them, on what they do, or on what they might give up doing it. It just means that they're out of my daily realm.

If it means anything, freedom means remembering the contributions of folks who help make your society what it is. But dare I say it ... it also means the freedom of not being somehow forced to keep particular contributions ... or particular types of contributions forever at the forefront of your mind.

Paul Pless
07-27-2010, 02:27 PM
It's not left wing. It's just NPR talk radio - Talk of the Nation, Diane Rehm, Terry Gross. If you are a thinking person, it's really grim.Oh... I listen to those shows every day too. When you said 'progressive' I thought you were refering to Thomm Hartmann and company. I have a very different reaction to the NPR than you do; are you saying that I'm not a thinking person?

htom
07-27-2010, 02:46 PM
I see them in Wal*Mart. I want to ask they why they're doing what they're doing. I never get up the courage to do that.

Aside from that, I think about them every day. I think about how many of them are there because there's no work here. I think about the mindset of the large majority of the people who would come back here if we pulled them out of there - 185 thousand people trained to follow orders. And kill other people. Trained to be angry all the time, be outraged, and believe in various types of very repressive religions.

I think about whether we really need that many people here on this continent with those skillsets and no work for them here.
...


/sigh/ Perhaps you should listen more to ordinary military members and less to those on progressive radio. Your understanding of military training is ... faulty, incomplete, or both, I'd claim.

Yes, Uncle taught me lots of ways to kill, and injure, those on the other side. I mostly don't use those techniques in my day-to-day life here, and hope never to have to use them at all. Most of the murderers in this country are neither military members nor military veterans. We are vastly underrepresented in that group. (My supposition is that we learned other ways of dealing with our angry.)

http://www.mudvillegazette.com/ and http://www.thunderrun.us/ both (among others) provide windows through which you can observe your military in action. You may be surprised at the variety of opinions expressed there. Following the links in their blogrolls will show you even more, some you'll agree with, some you won't, some you'll laugh at, and others with.

Ed Harrow
07-27-2010, 02:48 PM
One son of a childhood friend and my best man is just back, his other son is just leaving... A past foster child is heading off soon.

Yes, I think about it - a lot.

htom
07-27-2010, 02:55 PM
Ed -- when you next see them, please tell them that I appreciate their service, and thank them for it.

Black-Jack
07-27-2010, 02:56 PM
I was brought up to question the value of the variety of answers to that question to a much wider perspective than patriotism or "love" of country

That is a poorly constructed sentence, but I believe I get your meaning, and harbor no suprise.

Thank your god of free inquiry that there are guys and gals out there willing to lay down their lives so you may continue to do so. ;)

Bill Griffin
07-27-2010, 03:31 PM
Like a few others here, every day. I don't personally know anyone there or en route right now. A youngster just left our FD to enlist in the Army, though.

Elf, you really should screw up the courage to ask them, next you see a service person or two, and just listen to their replies, and try not to judge until you think them over.

troutman
07-27-2010, 03:54 PM
No disrespect to your general friend but you cannot get a useful answer on staying or leaving from a soldier. their in the business of staying and winning. Its Viet Nam, my war, with less dead. We need to prop us a dictator and kill the taliban with drones but come home. These repeated deployments are going to permanently hurt a lot of people who are going to need help forever. If you'd have told me I had to return to Viet Nam I'd have shot myself or swum to Canada. Its grim.

Flying Orca
07-27-2010, 03:55 PM
I think about our Canadian soldiers a lot, partially because we are losing so many of them. I'm not opposed to the work they are doing, I just don't know whether it will do any good in the long run.

I've been listening to a great CBC radio drama called Afghanada lately, working my way through the first season. Well worth the purchase from iTunes.

Hal Forsen
07-27-2010, 04:14 PM
Every bloody day. :mad:
I live right next to one of the nation's biggest bases and have friends and family serving.
The working class fight and die while the rich get richer.
And so it goes.

stoneyreef
07-27-2010, 04:30 PM
I think Elf and her attitude in this matter is exactly what is wrong in this country. War is never good but she goes beyond that to actually dehumanizing soldiers. So is a butcher who slaughters animals daily for the food on your table a crazed killer also? Sheesh give your fellow human a bit of credit.

elf
07-27-2010, 04:33 PM
You have to dehumanize yourself to kill another human. It's basic.

And it's one of the biggest reasons that many who find themselves in the services just can't fire that gun when it's needed.

elf
07-27-2010, 04:35 PM
Oh... I listen to those shows every day too. When you said 'progressive' I thought you were refering to Thomm Hartmann and company. I have a very different reaction to the NPR than you do; are you saying that I'm not a thinking person?


Isn't it grim to you? Most of the time you sound like it is.

htom
07-27-2010, 04:46 PM
You have to dehumanize yourself to kill another human. It's basic.

And it's one of the biggest reasons that many who find themselves in the services just can't fire that gun when it's needed.

Fighting WW2 and Korea again, are we?

htom
07-27-2010, 04:47 PM
Humans dehumanize their opponents quite "naturally". Look at the political discourse in this country. Dehumanized targets are much easier to do things to.

Paul Pless
07-27-2010, 04:47 PM
Most of the time you sound like it is.Really? My postings here make me sound as though I view the world pessimistically?? Because that is surely not how I feel.

nw_noob
07-27-2010, 04:57 PM
I think about them daily, as the news reminds me daily. I must admit though, I'm having more and more trouble reading the story's these days... the story's about soldiers who've come home and had problems here are particularly hard to read.

Why are we in Afghanistan? It seems the newest reasoning is that we need a big surge to kick some Taliban butt before our scheduled draw-down just so they will remember we can inflict pain if we want to... it seems pretty stupid to me, but I'm not a soldier.

I have the utmost respect for the military folks, and I understand many of their reasons for doing what they do. The politicians and sometimes the military leaders make it hard to keep from smashing my laptop some days though. It would help if I quit seeking out the alternative news sources for the benefit of my own peace of mind, however I believe it to be my patriotic duty to remain an informed citizen, and inform others when it's appropriate. Ignoring the wars isn't an option for me.

John of Phoenix
07-27-2010, 05:03 PM
You have to dehumanize yourself to kill another human. It's basic.

It wasn't so much dehumanizing myself as the other guy. Then you have to depressurize when you get home and reestablish you marriage (6 months or so) then psyche up for the next tour in two years. I was packing for my second trip when we declared Peace with Honor. It was fine with me. I genuinely pity GIs these days.

Captain Blight
07-27-2010, 05:34 PM
I think Elf and her attitude in this matter is exactly what is wrong in this country. War is never good but she goes beyond that to actually dehumanizing soldiers. So is a butcher who slaughters animals daily for the food on your table a crazed killer also? Sheesh give your fellow human a bit of credit.Excuse me, but you might want to read that again. E is not de-humanizing soldiers; she may not have a well-rounded view of what soldiering is all about, but you will notice that she is deploring the situation they are in.


You have to dehumanize yourself to kill another human. It's basic.

And it's one of the biggest reasons that many who find themselves in the services just can't fire that gun when it's needed.I agree, and think it's a bigger problem than we are willing to admit. It is very hard to kill another, and the military has worked very hard over the years to train that impulse out of soldiers. Slanging the enemy, calling them names and generally teaching soldiers to believe their opponent is something other than a guy with a family, dreams, hopes, and a life he himself is willing to fight for and a way of life he wants to protect, is all commonplace. I was threatened with court-martial when I was recalled to active duty during Gulf Classic because I objected to my CO calling the Iraquis 'ragheads' and 'camel-jockeys.' Hey, all I said was that these people had an active trading civilization and were using the written word, architecture, engineering and mathematics while our ancestors were still painting themselves blue and howling through the European oak forests. Viewing our military enemy as human is considered to be tantamount to treason in some circles.

I avoid those circles and those people. They are part of the the problem, not part of the solution, I think; and they don't know how neatly they are playing into our military opponent's hands. Dance, puppets, dance.

Flying Orca
07-27-2010, 05:47 PM
+1, Captain.

Tom Montgomery
07-27-2010, 06:01 PM
How often do you think about our soldiers and the war?

Daily. My co-workers are mostly blue-collar working class and many of them have sons, daughters, and relatives serving in the armed forces. Also, Fort Knox is just down the road and I brush shoulders with soldiers in uniform regularly.


My dad and I were talking about this the other day. It's almost as if it's not happening if you judge by the behaviour of the vast majority of Americans.

Agreed. Unless one has a connection with soldiers and/or their families it is pretty easy to consider the longest war in American history as nothing but a sad, but largely invisible, sideshow.


Does anyone really know what the purpose of this war is?

As best I can tell it is about nation-building. We should have left years ago.

elf
07-27-2010, 07:54 PM
Really? My postings here make me sound as though I view the world pessimistically?? Because that is surely not how I feel.

I don't perceive that you view the world pessimistically. I perceive that you find everything going on now pretty discouraging. Probably not as sad as I see it, but I experience you as recognizing a lot of the extent of the mess around us.

ccmanuals
07-27-2010, 08:04 PM
I see and talk with them everyday working in a building that has about 1000 active duty and about 3000 civilians.

ramillett
07-28-2010, 02:26 AM
My daughter did 2 tours in Baghdad , 3 years back , first tour , she was part of the 89th MP's training Iraqi police , she was there photographer , and I had a nice setup , most nights I received copies of what she shot that day , and I got to tell her to have a great day . Second tour she was with General Petraeus for his last 2 weeks , then with General Odierno for this first year , that was like having a front row seat to what was going on . I ask her how much did it change from the year before , her answer was "it got quiet" no mortars or rockets being fired at camp Victory at night , and people are walking the streets again . She got another change in prospective , generals travel by air so she got to see a lot more of Iraq . Elf she came back just fine , with a fresh love of home :) We were lucky .


This is what we are fighting for , giving them a chance . This was a bloody street a year earlier .
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv332/ramillett/millett/Samarra1.jpg

If anyone has family or friends in Iraq , I may have photos of there area :)

elf
07-28-2010, 03:32 AM
I'm glad she came home safey. I'm glad she lucked out on her assignments. What work is she doing now?

ramillett
07-28-2010, 04:28 AM
I'm glad she came home safey. I'm glad she lucked out on her assignments. What work is she doing now?

She is out Aug.3 , did her 5 years , then going back to school for another degree , this one on the army :) It is a good deal for kids without any direction .

ramillett
07-28-2010, 04:47 AM
Elf you can write a solder and start up a pin-pal , they would love to have someone to write , and you can get your answers first hand :)

Paul Pless
07-28-2010, 05:44 AM
Emily, why do you have the impression that our former soldiers have any harder time finding employment than anyone else in this economy? I understand that many folks turn to the military for a career because they find it the best alternative available to them; but I also am under the impression that our military personnel are often actively recruited for employment after their service is complete, this is becoming especially true at the corporate level. Plus they have awesome education benefits available to them. Here's some stats on the jobless rates of veterans compared to non-veterans for you from the BLS.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/vet.nr0.htm

It appears that the differences are either insignificant or show a slight advantage for veterans overall.

rbgarr
07-28-2010, 06:11 AM
I watch the Sub nday morning show were they have an In Memoriiam section at the end with the name rank homtown and age of each soldier reprted killed that week. It oftens makes me tear up. So sad.

BrianW
07-28-2010, 07:27 AM
Occasionally, when I'm bored.

More than war, I fear the upcoming return of the short haired, mindless, well tanned, death dealing drone horde.

The horror... the horror.

(some folks should stick with Harpers, or Vanity, or better yet Mad Magazine)

elf
07-28-2010, 07:31 AM
Emily, why do you have the impression that our former soldiers have any harder time finding employment than anyone else in this economy? I understand that many folks turn to the military for a career because they find it the best alternative available to them; but I also am under the impression that our military personnel are often actively recruited for employment after their service is complete, this is becoming especially true at the corporate level. Plus they have awesome education benefits available to them.

I didn't say they had a harder time. All I said was that they come home to a society which does not have sufficient work for those who need it, so they have similar difficulties to all the rest of the 9.x% that needs work.

As for entering the workforce at the corporate level, you may well be able to imagine what my opinion might be of the "assets" of a group of people trained to follow orders and not think outside the box for any sort of work, corporate or otherwise.

Do you really think that a big groups of Donns and Cleeks are what our society needs in corporations right now?

Paul Pless
07-28-2010, 07:41 AM
As for entering the workforce at the corporate level, you may well be able to imagine what my opinion might be of the "assets" of a group of people trained to follow orders and not think outside the box for any sort of work, corporate or otherwise.Its my understanding that former service members are being recruited in a large part for their organizational and their 'people skills'.






As an aside, extending my own personal experience to Donn and Cleek; I doubt either of them are corporate material. I know that I'm not and it has nothing to do with military experience. Donn and Cleek have both been successful in their own business ventures over long periods of time - these type of people rarely fit well in large organizations.

skuthorp
07-28-2010, 07:52 AM
I think about them, yours, ours, the Brits, Dutch etc. I also think about the civilians impacted by our presence, as I do the 'reasons' for us being there at all. And in the light of recent revelations about the bizzare situation of the US, and presumably Aus, subsidising the Pakistani military who in turn pass on the cash to the Taliban to kill our sons and daughters. All this incidentally paid for by Chinese purchase of US bonds and in our case the purchase of our minerals. Truly bizzare.

Y Bar Ranch
07-28-2010, 08:09 AM
As for entering the workforce at the corporate level, you may well be able to imagine what my opinion might be of the "assets" of a group of people trained to follow orders and not think outside the box for any sort of work, corporate or otherwise.
Google on "The Strategic Corporal". We've got young enlisted soldiers responsible for the lives of others, being held to standards of conduct that professional athletes wouldn't dream of, and making decisions that have strategic implications on a daily basis. The military, when operating at its best, empowers its people. As a 23 year old, I commanded an aircraft with a crew of 5 and flew it from one side of the Earth to the other and back. You don't get that sort of responsibility and decision-making opportunity working for an insurance company or other big corporate entity. I know.

elf
07-28-2010, 08:34 AM
Ah, but are they capable of questioning whether flying an airplane from one side of the earth to the other and back is the fruitful thing to be doing? Anybody can organize a group of people to do something they're all trained to do. Only those with unfettered minds can question whether the thing is worth doing, or worth doing in the way they're being told to do it.

Y Bar Ranch
07-28-2010, 08:40 AM
Ah, but are they capable of questioning whether flying an airplane from one side of the earth to the other and back is the fruitful thing to be doing? Anybody can organize a group of people to do something they're all trained to do. Only those with unfettered minds can question whether the thing is worth doing, or worth doing in the way they're being told to do it.
They all volunteered, and most re-upped, so yes they made informed decisions. And most are given the directions, "Get this from point A to point B" and left to plan out the details. And if you think soldiers and sailors mindlessly follow orders without questioning superiors...again, you actually need to interact with a few rather than make opinions based on the shared group-think of a single-minded group.

Unfetter your mind and gather some raw data, then form an opinion.

elf
07-28-2010, 08:44 AM
Reupping just means they swallowed the Kool Aid completely.

Y Bar Ranch
07-28-2010, 08:49 AM
Reupping just means they swallowed the Kool Aid completely.
Your thoughts are deeply fettered.

TomF
07-28-2010, 08:53 AM
Nope. Mine are though. :D

(Tom Fetter).

PhaseLockedLoop
07-28-2010, 10:38 AM
I think about them every day, even though I don't know anyone personally involved. I just keep reading the stupid "news." I think about our people.

Thinking about the "war," though, also involves thinking about the hundreds of thousands of the "enemy," and those "linked" to the "enemy," and those in the neighborhood of the "enemy," and those run out of their homes and into desert "camps" so the "enemy," presumably left behind, can be exterminated.

Hearts that bleed copiously about our soldiers harden up pretty fast with respect to anyone else. Just another dehumanizing effect of mass organized killing.

Black-Jack
07-28-2010, 10:44 AM
sigh ......

I have only been here about a week and already have 2 left wing nut jobs on my ignore list.

BrianW
07-28-2010, 10:57 AM
Reupping just means they swallowed the Kool Aid completely.

It appears your more bias than previously hinted at. If there's one thing most take away from the Bilge, it's that generalizations are never correct.

Paul Pless
07-28-2010, 11:01 AM
I have only been here about a week . . .as if :D

BrianW
07-28-2010, 11:13 AM
Supporting the troops, everyday...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/Afghanistan/nut-hammer--july-3.jpg

The picture can be viewed bigger, but you have to open it up (usually a 'right-click' on the mouse and pick something from the drop down menu.)

John of Phoenix
07-28-2010, 11:31 AM
As for entering the workforce at the corporate level, you may well be able to imagine what my opinion might be of the "assets" of a group of people trained to follow orders and not think outside the box for any sort of work, corporate or otherwise.
I was shocked at the prevelance of this assumption during job interviews many years ago.
One manager said, "I'm reluctant to hire former military. People just sit around waiting to be told what to do."
"Really? What branch were you in?"
"I wasn't in the military."
"I could tell."

BrianW
07-28-2010, 11:45 AM
"Really? What branch were you in?"
"I wasn't in the military."


Seems to be the common denominator.

htom
07-28-2010, 02:39 PM
Ah, but are they capable of questioning whether flying an airplane from one side of the earth to the other and back is the fruitful thing to be doing? Anybody can organize a group of people to do something they're all trained to do. Only those with unfettered minds can question whether the thing is worth doing, or worth doing in the way they're being told to do it.

This is more a question to put to those empowering and giving the orders, than those sworn to obey them.

That said, they can and do question orders. You're supposed to, in fact, if you think it's a wrongful order. (Been there, done that, got the "well done" from my CO's CO.) Your ideas of what happens in the military seem to be mostly formed from watching very bad anti-war movies. There are bits of the military that are the way you describe; they are not looked upon as exemplars of proper behavior. You could try reading Anton Myer's "Once An Eagle" for a description of the two sides of this; I cheer for Sam Damon, of course; his opponent, Courtney Massengale, is very like the person you describe as typical military. (And yes, even Marines know how to read, and are assigned reading, both manuals, biography, and fiction, to be read before being promoted, even from Private to PFC; there's required reading for -every- promotion.)

Y Bar Ranch
07-28-2010, 04:10 PM
Elf, here is what the Navy wants its mindless drones to read. Some insight into what they want them to think and how to behave.

http://www.navyreading.navy.mil/

htom
07-28-2010, 04:29 PM
Here's the USMC Professional Development Reading List. (http://www.mcu.usmc.mil/lejeune_leadership/LLI%20Documnets/2010ProReadingBrochure.pdf) Army, Air Force, and Coast Guard also have them; there's a lot of overlap.

Captain Blight
07-28-2010, 05:19 PM
I was often chastised for asking difficult questions of my superiors, particularly during my IRR recall; but I was never told I couldn't ask the questions, and occasionally word filtered back to me that even if I was being difficult, at least I was showing a little initiative. Particularly in basic training, we were repeatedly told that what made Us better than Them (the Soviet) was that our soldiery was able to think on our feet and for ourselves if the need arose. One of the things that separates a good soldier from a mediocre one is knowing when the need arises. The CMOH rolls are full of stories of men seizing the initiative, making fast decisions, and acting on them knowing the chain of command would back them up without their having obtained prior permission.

Bill Griffin
07-28-2010, 05:23 PM
Is Elf Dutch?

Captain Blight
07-28-2010, 05:34 PM
I believe she is of Anglo-Saxon/Celtic extraction, but could be wrong.

Bill Griffin
07-28-2010, 06:07 PM
OK,OK I was just teasin' a bit. Didn't work apparently and I promise not to do it again. For a while.
(insert embarassed smiley here)

Reef_Kringle
07-28-2010, 06:07 PM
Yes, God save our heros! War is not political, it is crime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8Ve5GoHFDg

Reef_Kringle
07-28-2010, 06:21 PM
#62, you do realize that reading list is the very propaganda that makes some people think it's fine to roll up on a freely and democraticly elected governmental body and blow it and six or seven hundred thousand of it people to smithereens. You need to read someting that actually means something, boy. Hey, don't get me wrong, somebody's got to go in there, shake 'em down, kill a million or so poor people. The worlds got to many poor people!

Captain Blight
07-28-2010, 06:43 PM
I really wish every single one of our servicemen would read a book called "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill In War And Society," by LTC Dave Grossman. It is an in-depth look at what training to take lives does to people individually and society as a whole.

Linkage (http://www.killology.com/books.htm)

Reef_Kringle
07-28-2010, 07:05 PM
I'm on a personal moratorium of political discussion in respect of the gunned down Amish teenagers. However, since Maj. Gen. Smedley Darling Butler stated clearly that " war is a racket," - and so many generals and military academy graduates today seem to emerge from their patriotic service to their employers as millionaires- we can all clearly see that war is mostly a criminal operation.

So, read these: Blowback, by Chalmers Johnson; Sowing Crisis, by Rashid Khalidi; Rogue State, by T.D. Altman; Fear's Empire, by Benjamin R. Barber. Now, remember to read these books with an open mind, though some of the authors are ex-CIA, CFR Fellows, and department heads at universities -damned lefties!

You'll also want to read Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine to understand why "they hate us." John Perkin's Hoodwinked is a shorter version of Kleins book. And, hell, throw in a chapter or two of that chip-toothed liberal intellectual, Noam Chomsky. Oh! Oh! do not forget to read Rule By Secrecy, by Jim Marrs to get y'r head on right.

htom
07-28-2010, 07:08 PM
Both On Killing and On Combat are on the USMC list.

How can I say this? Not only are we taught to kill, we're taught many other things, too. If our training was to turn us into homicidal maniacs, it's failing, because there should then be many more of us in prison.

elf
07-28-2010, 07:32 PM
I believe she is of Anglo-Saxon/Celtic extraction, but could be wrong.

Not sure about all of the extraction on one side, but what I do know of that side is either austro-roumanian, or scandi-austro-roumanian. My father went back to try to find his family but was unsuccessful. The other side is 12th generation American with English behind it.

My first marriage was to an American of Scots-Irish extraction - 1st generation American, his father Canadian. I no longer recall about his mother.

As far as I know there is no celtic heritage in my bloodstream.

Reef_Kringle
07-28-2010, 07:33 PM
I sure hope some of these kids do get to go to college. It would be a shame to have been part of the carnage and protracted pilaging and not cash in on the spoils of war offered. Heck, it's a great opportunity for these young heros. The one black kid in Micheal Moore's film said it best, "I sure wish there was a way I could get an education without risking my life." It's about freedom. The conspiratorial leftie Noam Chomsky claims some mighty dark things about that freedom we all seem to be fighting for. But don't feel like a hostage in a rich mans game.

There are two side to every war. There is also a good possibility of switching sides. One side makes and sells the weapons to the other side who uses the weapons against each other and then pay the the weapons makers and sellers again for the damages. Usually, the side that collects the money has control over the leaders of the side that usues the weapons against themselves. Oddly, the side that always loses has been made to believe that they are somehow divided. Hmmm. How do they do that? Magic?

BrianW
07-28-2010, 08:14 PM
I sure hope some of these kids do get to go to college... ...The one black kid in Micheal Moore's film said it best, "I sure wish there was a way I could get an education without risking my life."

I'm guessing getting a job and paying his way through college wasn't an option?

elf
07-28-2010, 08:50 PM
I'm guessing a minimum wage job won't pay ones way through college. That's about all a high school kid can get now-a-days.

Bob Adams
07-28-2010, 09:04 PM
Reupping just means they swallowed the Kool Aid completely.

Really? What have you been drinking?

htom
07-28-2010, 09:21 PM
Basic pay these days is around $8/hr (assuming a 40 hour week, ha!) There's a decent medical package, on-base housing & meals (so far.)

cs
07-28-2010, 09:24 PM
I see them in Wal*Mart. I want to ask they why they're doing what they're doing. I never get up the courage to do that.

Aside from that, I think about them every day. I think about how many of them are there because there's no work here. I think about the mindset of the large majority of the people who would come back here if we pulled them out of there - 185 thousand people trained to follow orders. And kill other people. Trained to be angry all the time, be outraged, and believe in various types of very repressive religions.

I think about whether we really need that many people here on this continent with those skillsets and no work for them here.

I think about how we are doing no preparation whatsoever to create environments for them where they have to integrate back into a more diverse society, one in which they have to be independent of mind when all so many of them know is to obey and do what they're told.

I think about how we have no jobs for their secondary skillsets (mechanic, computer technician, medic, whatever), and certainly no jobs for their primary skillset as obedient drone. I think about all the scandals in the last 20 years in the medical care field for these people. We can't even agree to properly fund care for them and clearly many of us think it's not their responsiblity to provide medical care for them. 30 years ago we agreed that we wouldn't fund care for those of them who came back unable to deal with the world and dismantled the kinds of facilities we used to have, and eliminated the kinds of jobs we used to have for those poor souls.

I think about how we have gobs of unoccupied housing, but noone seems able to organize the banks to provide it to people who would rent it. I think about how they would be coming back to insufficient funds to pay the rent anyway. I think about old Navy housing down in Truro which the artists on the lower Cape have been trying to pry out of the hands of the military for housing for another group which never has lots of money to rent housing. If we can't do that, how can we take care of all these poor people coming home from such a spiritually demoralizing job?

Every day as I listen to progressive talk radio, I think about the implications of the stuff I hear for these poor suckers who have no choice but to enlist in the military services here in hopes of coming out with a better skillset and not in a coffin.

The only truth that I can find in the above quote is that you are a coward. But that is okay. That mindless, angry, killer drone that you saw at WalMart, has protected your right to be a sniveling coward. You can always go on the web and post your drivel about angry unskilled trained killers and hide here in complete anonymity, while others go and actually do something.

Oh by the way, I did find one other truth in your statement. I am outraged that anyone can be so ignorant and yet so vocal.

Chad

Black-Jack
07-28-2010, 10:45 PM
The one black kid in Micheal Moore's film said it best, "I sure wish there was a way I could get an education without risking my life.

Complete and utter bs - not even worth a reply- maybe 30 years ago- not now where the higher education of anyone with a pulse is, just about a government given birthright these days ........ with government grants, loans, handouts, etc. ...............

Any fool that would watch a M Moore propaganda flick with a staight face, might very well be ignorant enough to believe another Hollywood spoof done by Algore. It is difficult to believe that folks can not be more discerning. Is logic not taught in the schools any more?

Such is the state of government education.

ramillett
07-28-2010, 11:14 PM
I'm afraid Elf is yanking our chain , she is spending too much time stirring our disbelief .

David G
07-28-2010, 11:48 PM
Since my oldest son is in the Navy... is currently a petty officer on a destroyer steaming for N. Korea... and is in the process of putting together his packet to apply for BUD/S training (that is, become a Navy SEAL)... and since I've gotten close to some of his fellow squidlets... I think of our servicemen and women a lot.

I have nothing but respect for the people who choose to serve in this capacity - whatever their underlying motivation.

I'd love to have the same level of trust and respect for the top tier of military leaders (who become, out of necessity, politicians more than warriors), and the civilian politicians who direct them. I don't. I'm all too aware that serving the Empire sometimes serves the country as a whole, but all too often merely serves the desires of those in power to amass more wealth and power.

ChaseKenyon
07-28-2010, 11:59 PM
First:


Elf, here is what the Navy wants its mindless drones to read. Some insight into what they want them to think and how to behave.

http://www.navyreading.navy.mil/
MikeY


Follow the link to the history of the "Naval War College". For many years after taking over the Nuclear research facility at MIT, my father's mobilization billet was to take over the Naval War College as president. That is the Navy's oft hidden level of officer. Sometimes an O7 is a senior captain and sometimes he has been a Commodore. It is only in the last ten or so years they finally made a set policy that was not changed every three or four years.


So you can look at the list of topics and books for naval officers. You can also learn about the NWC and it courses and training. Basic concept is use our forces to prevent a war. Second concept if war is necessary win it as fast as possible with as little collateral damage as possible. THird if that can not be accomplished make the most of your forces by always meeting the enemy from a superior battle position.


Most of the reading list was dinner table conversational fodder while growing up for me.

As to thinking about our current military I am forced to think about them daily.

I am forced to think about their care for mental and physical injuries. I have to think about it as I have been fighting with the VA since 1976 about my overseas operational deployment back injuries. A life time of pain and the VA ignores their own rules for evaluation. I sent sent them 50 pages of X-ray cuts and prints and ten DRs. evaluations including two VA Drs. and copies of the law an such and evaluation procedures required to be used in my case by their rules. The evaluator in Manchester NH sent it back "denied" because I had not sent any medical evidence of my condition. 50 plus pages all signed by DRs. Radiologists, PTs and OTs and NPs, but that is no medical evidence of my condition as decided by someone with no professional medical background or certification of their own.

I have my full 100% disability from the Social security Administration. There are numerous federal court cases all establishing The same precedent that the VA has to acknowledge at least my 100% unemployability. So as I am about to loose my house of 29 years on the 19th of August the latest stall of the VA is to send me a form after 5 weeks to fill out as my own employer for RoyalKenyon Woodwrights, inc. a partnership I was in that I was the operations manager of.


5 weeks stalling to ask me to fill out a form for my lost time myself as an employee of RKW. For 5 weeks they have been telling my US Senators office they have all they need. They sent this form to me and did not as required copy or fax it to Senator Jeanne Shaheen's office.


So I worry every day about the current military serving this country and how are they going to be taken care of. Vietnam Veterans are still getting short shrift.

We Cold War veterans don't exist. If we did not make it back the State department eliminated all historical records of you existence. THats after listing you as AWOL for six months. BC's SSNs College Records and so on all gone.


Thats why 1.5 years on NATO ops are missing from my service and medical records. 4 months on Nato ops attached (nominally) to DDG6. Then 1.5 years missing. Then 4 months as before (nominally) attached to DDG6. THe IC gang I was "Part" of are all in the DDG6 Alumni 700 +_ stonge association. They say they don't remember my being on the DDG6 very often. VA response and Navy response Those were lost in the "ST Louis Fire". An incident that happened long before I learned how to paddle a canoe at age 6.


DAd tried to access my records as a pentagon level Naval officer. He only said that my records had been "washed" and I had been "washed".

Funny now on pain meds more and more overseas stuff is finally coming back to me.


So I hope we treat our Iraq and Afganistan troops better than we have treated our Vietnam vets, let alone us cold war veterans.:arg:arg:pmad::pmad:

purri
07-29-2010, 12:09 AM
Chase mate I hear you. Here the Dept of Defence/ADF has a unit called "Defence Legal".
It stalled the destroyer Voyager personnel who survived her sinking by another RAN (navy) ship in abt 64.
They denied compensation and continue to do so for sufferers of asbestosis from lagged steam pipes on old vessels.
They deny TBT/dioxin/ Agent Orange.
They deny chronic illnesses of ex ground crew from washing out F111 fuel tanks.
They denied atomic fallout from the tests here.

And Govts of all political persuasions have denied claims over the years and in fact they have spent much more money fighting every case than what it would have taken to pay fair and due compensation.

They just deny all!

Bastards!

ChaseKenyon
07-29-2010, 12:35 AM
Chase mate I hear you. Here the Dept of Defence/ADF has a unit called "Defence Legal".
:arg:arg:arg:arg

I just love this smiley.

Arg arg arg

:arg


At least I can smile sort of tonight.

Grams said learn something new every day, find at least ten things to laugh at every day (even if 9 of them are yourself), Never take yourself seriously ,but take everyone else seriously.

She died at age 103 four days before her PHD in teaching.......... English, world History, advanced mathematics and music.:cool:

Y Bar Ranch
07-29-2010, 07:55 AM
I have been fighting with the VA since 1976 about my overseas operational deployment back injuries.
Sorry to hear of your trials, Chase. The country still struggles to properly care for its vets.

John of Phoenix
07-29-2010, 11:54 AM
Chase, what you're going through is a national disgrace.

Are you aware of this organization? http://www.vetadvocates.com
Check the directory. There's a fellow in Dover who may be able to help with your claim.

BrianW
07-29-2010, 11:58 AM
I'm guessing a minimum wage job won't pay ones way through college. That's about all a high school kid can get now-a-days.

As opposed to the good old days, when high school graduates brought home six figure salaries while working their way through college.

Paul Pless
07-29-2010, 11:59 AM
> :d

BrianW
07-29-2010, 12:03 PM
You can always go on the web and post your drivel about angry unskilled trained killers and hide here in complete anonymity, while others go and actually do something.

We got plenty of those. Thank goodness we've also got some real fine folks here, from the opposite side of the spectrum.