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View Full Version : Sell or Fix: 1966 Sport Fisherman 39' Went About 2/3 Under



cfortescue
07-20-2010, 08:06 AM
I presently own a 1966 Pacemaker Sport Fisherman 39'.
It kills me to part with her but a little over a week ago the old girl went about 2/3 under. the electronics went under almost up to galley counter. Engines just about went all the way under. Port engine was pickled and now works. Starboard engine was pickled and still trying to get started.
The boat is in de Rouville's Boat Shop located in Bayville NJ.
Storage is only paid till Saturday (have to decide to sell give away or fix myself quickly)
I am a novice and this is my first boat. I bought her this past September.
Please contact as soon as possible. Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Here is a link to some photos (presubmersion) http://s480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/cfortescue/The%20Boat/
uncle@comcast.net (uncle@comcast.net)

Thanks
Charles

knottyBuoyz
07-20-2010, 09:05 AM
The investment in time, effort and money will be huge to rehabilitate the ole' girl. Only you can decide if it's worth it.

skipper68
07-20-2010, 10:41 AM
The investment in time, effort and money will be huge to rehabilitate the ole' girl. Only you can decide if it's worth it.
Very true.Have you posted on the pacemaker boatowners site? If not,go to it and register.I'm of the thought that even dewaterd -especially if its salt water, its more of a parts maker.Really sorry to hear of such bad luck.She's a beautiful boat.We dewaterd our 32 when we abopted it.but it was in freah water.I see it has a pa hailing port.With our fresh water we ran kerosene thru the motors,and 5 oil changes.we let it dry for the summer first,and we had no motor problems.Thay're made for marine enviroment,ie,starters sealed ect. hope this helps with your decision.

sdowney717
07-20-2010, 12:47 PM
If this is the current state of the framing, the whole structure of the boat is in jeopardy.
You could fix it with a lot of time and effort.


http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/cfortescue/The%20Boat/146.jpg

bahma
07-20-2010, 03:18 PM
If you are new to wooden boats and boating, you will find you have much to do and wear many hats. Marine engineer, electrician AC/DC, Air-conditioner tech, electronic engineer, plumber, marine wood worker, etc. You will also need very deep pockets and even more free time.....like 2 or 3 years. To be brutal, why did you buy it? It's your decision but if it were me I would sell her for parts. Next time have a Marine Surveyor give his professional opinion.

James McMullen
07-20-2010, 03:44 PM
¡Lo siento, Señor! Es horrible. Kiss her good bye and run as fast as your legs can carry you.

Michael D. Storey
07-20-2010, 03:53 PM
Depends where your head is. Consider taking her home, putting her under a roof, and becoming an expert in boat resurrection in your spare time over the next while? How old are you? Like to tinker? Ever enjoy getting the hell out of the house and minding your own business in solitude? I would, sight unseen, of course, be willing to take a moment and consider the possibilities...

PaulT
07-20-2010, 05:03 PM
Charles:
Having to do with the repairs to the structure of the boat, look at the following thread if you haven't yet. It will give you an idea about structural repairs. As far as the systems, someone else will have to step in with those issues.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?112986-1950-CC-Cruiser-Restoration

Regards:
Paul T

v10builder1
07-21-2010, 04:36 PM
Posters,

The closest boat on Yachtworld is a 1967 40 foot flush deck (aft cabin) asking $21,900. Based only on the photos and description attached to that ad, of course, the condition of the 40 footer is many times better than the 39 footer in this thread. I looked at the entire photo album cfortesque provided, I agree the hull does not look good.

It always hurts to see a boat that so much quality labor and materials went into originally deteriorate to where this one looks to be now. So, the questions that ought to be asked here should include:

Instead of stating the obvious, that any boat can be reconstructed given enough expertise, time, and money, and stating that cfortesque will just have to decide on his own; cfortesque is asking the forum for specifics.

In my view, it would take years of part time work and many thousands of dollars over 21,900 for someone WITH developed restoration skills to basically replace every part of the hull, all the wiring and most of the mechanicals.

I believe that cfortesque should look long, hard, and soon for a restoration qualified buyer, if one can be found.

I don't know the purchase price, but surely, as stated previously, a pre-purchase survey should have been done. I know this is little comfort to cfortesque at this time.

In looking at the photos in the album, it seemed to me that a lot of the hull wood had no paint applied. Does anyone know if wood was left bare at the Pacemaker manufacturing plant?

I hope cfortesque can get out from under this without losing his butt.

Michael D. Storey
07-21-2010, 04:52 PM
I am not convinced that he should run from this. I mean, I don't know anybody here, actually, much less The Owner, but as a man who has spent years on houses and train stations and Big Machinery in constructive, successful efforts to resurrect them, I am rather discouraged by the lack of encouragement. I remain surprised that no one sed 'buy a reliable survey' or, 'get a boat wright to look at it and give you a report, even if you have to pay for it.'
I reckon that if the guy did not have some game, some cred in things manual, he would have not posted. I mean, I do not nor will I ever repair an automatic transmission. I know better. But I still got game. I get the slant that our originator does, too, and he was looking for experience, a positive word, instead of 'run don't walk.'

skipper68
07-21-2010, 10:09 PM
If this is the current state of the framing, the whole structure of the boat is in jeopardy.
You could fix it with a lot of time and effort.


http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr169/cfortescue/The%20Boat/146.jpgWow,is that the reason it went down,or the result of the pull?
You could sister the ribs.Pacemakers wern't painted inside.If it is in salt tho,it might need all refastning.We see that alot around here,when the fastners were in salt,and deterierate.Any insurance on it?

cfortescue
07-21-2010, 10:32 PM
Thanks for your encouraging words Michael.
If I did want to go for this, and I only had Saturdays to do the work along with some vacation days how much money would it cost and how many years would it take?
I have never done anything like this but I am a little handy.

Michael D. Storey
07-22-2010, 05:55 AM
Suggest you talk to a local surveyor or builder. Impossible to say unseen. My brother builds church organs. He sez that anyone can build an organ, if they have enough wood. If you are handy, and can learn from early mistakes, you can move right along once you get going.
Can you see the reconstruction becoming the central theme of your personal recreation over several years, and then the boat perhaps becoming a life-long companion? Do you have a partner or children who would do this with you? It could be great, man. On the other hand, it could ruin your marriage, if you let it get out of control, or if your partner does not understand what and why you're doing.
Jusayin

sdowney717
07-22-2010, 06:48 AM
you either steam bend new ribs which become like wet noodles and then slide them in and they have to be weighted down against the planking
or
you can laminate thin strips of wood to build up new frames.
Either way you need to get good access to the area. And you can do it a few at a time. You will likely find the fasteners are corroded so you will need to think about rescrewing the planks with new bronze screws. Most likely the plank edges will have some wear in spots especially around the prop struts. Those bottom planks needing replacement you should use similar wood as it was made with.
The other thing you can do is remove the bottom completely on each side, do only on side at a time. Repair the framing. then cold mold 1/4 inch layers of boat plywood, like meranti plywood and make a new plywood hull, overlapping all the edges, sort of like planking with plywood. Screw them onto each other and the framing and epoxy glue them together. The trouble spots will be the chine curved bottom at the sides, but you can likely figure out something.
I wonder if anyone has ever mixed planking wood with plywood on a bottom?

Another thing you could do is convert the hull planking to strip plank construction. This is where you cut long strips of wood perhaps 1 by 3/4, 1 by 1 or 1 by 1.5 and edge nail and glue each strip to the other one next to each other and build up a new bottom attaching to the frame as well. you can likely reuse the old planking for this but will also have to buy some new wood.

sdowney717
07-22-2010, 06:54 AM
http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Wood.htm
Read this on surveying old wooden boat hulls to get some ideas on what your up against.

cfortescue
07-22-2010, 07:38 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll check into it.

Bob Adams
07-22-2010, 09:03 AM
Wow,is that the reason it went down,or the result of the pull?
You could sister the ribs.Pacemakers wern't painted inside.If it is in salt tho,it might need all refastning.We see that alot around here,when the fastners were in salt,and deterierate.Any insurance on it?

Classic Pacemaker/Egg Harbor ribs after 30 years or so. I've laminated new ones in most of my boat, I'll be hauling to do under the port fuel tank next week.

foxhound
07-22-2010, 10:23 AM
I think it's better to pay an expert to fix all the major damage on the hull that put your boat in jeopardy and then take your time and fix everything else yourself.

skipper68
07-22-2010, 10:32 AM
With ours,we sisterd up oak ribs,right next to the bad ones.A friend didn't listen to us,and had a no nothing(about marine) house builder talk him into using epoxy to laminate oak strips.the next month it was sold to a guy that pulled the planks and steamed the new oak replacements.Oak is so dense that the epoxy cann't adhere to it.Expensive lesson was learned on that one.All the hull wood is mohanagy.As for the refastning screws,look up remetco.their wholsale to the public.Best of wishes for her..

sdowney717
07-22-2010, 11:17 AM
I bought screws from Mcfeeleys and went up one size in width and used square drive. the large square drive socket heads on the larger screws, I only stripped a few. Predrill all your holes into oak otherwise those screws are going to break. I liked having the wider heads on the bigger screws, more grabbing area on the planks. and they were very easy to drive in.

they were either these
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/1420-SFC/14-x-2-Flat-Head-Boat-Silicon-Bronze

or these
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/1414-SFC/14-x-1-12-Flat-Head-Boat-Silicon-Bronze

bought them in 1000 box size. It took perhaps 3000 screws I think
I did reuse screws that were ok

sdowney717
07-22-2010, 11:25 AM
yeah white oak laminations might fall apart when epoxied together, something about the acidic wood. Make sure, really sure of an epoxy you get that it really is ok for white oak. You can laminate with 5200 etc, perhaps PL premium polyurethane construction adhesive....

sdowney717
07-22-2010, 11:30 AM
On my egg, behind the tanks, every frame had cracked. I actually made support pieces behind the frames cut from treated 2 by 6 wood (no knots). These pieces spanned a couple of feet tapering up to mid tank region and down below like a gusset type of idea. these pieces provide a lot of support for the frames, sort of like adding sawn frames behind your ribs.
I used paper and scribed a mark using the frame as a pattern and used the paper as a pattern to cut the gussets pieces. A lot of belt sanding to get a nice tight fit. I had easy access because I unplanked the boat to expose all the cracked framing. I recall taking straight pieces of wood to keep checking for a nice smooth fair fit between adjacent rib sections. It was a lot of work. they have not recracked and have remained tight and fair.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-22-2010, 11:43 AM
No offense, but if you have let a boat degrade to the point where it sank at the dock, you are not prepared for what it takes to restore a 39 foot wooden boat.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-22-2010, 11:47 AM
With ours,we sisterd up oak ribs,right next to the bad ones.A friend didn't listen to us,and had a no nothing(about marine) house builder talk him into using epoxy to laminate oak strips.the next month it was sold to a guy that pulled the planks and steamed the new oak replacements.Oak is so dense that the epoxy cann't adhere to it.Expensive lesson was learned on that one.All the hull wood is mohanagy.As for the refastning screws,look up remetco.their wholsale to the public.Best of wishes for her..

Sorry, this is simply untrue. There has been debate that the tannic acid in white oak interferes with an expoxy bond, but for the most part epoxy is just fine to laminate oak with. It's more important to clamp and cure properly than to worry about the tannic acid. I have seen lots of oak laminations with epoxy that are well over 20 years old... no problem.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-22-2010, 11:49 AM
I wonder if anyone has ever mixed planking wood with plywood on a bottom?.


Yes, a company named Chris Craft made about 15000 hulls that way.

Michael D. Storey
07-22-2010, 12:39 PM
No offense, but if you have let a boat degrade to the point where it sank at the dock, you are not prepared for what it takes to restore a 39 foot wooden boat.
Boats happen to sink for a whole lot of reasons. It is also possible that one could ascend to the lofty station that would allow them to care for a boat properly.
Suggest that you consider, in the words of my Mother, getting down off of your high horse. There is money to be made in thinking 'I would want to be a better caretaker than that', whereas in 'you are not prepared....', considering that it is based upon sketchy information at best, is just mouth-talkin'.
No offense.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-22-2010, 06:43 PM
No high horse here. I'm just a wooden boat owning peasant with a lot of years of working on lots of rotten old wooden boats. I have never had a boat of any kind sink, but sometimes I wish I had stopped to think how big the job was going to be to keep them afloat.

I looked at all the pictures here... it's fairly amazing this boat that this boat was floating in the last few years, let alone recently. She has all the symptoms of typical Pace problems... cracked frames at the turn of the bilge... lots of them. In addition some rotten floors, cracked planking, and some indication that the hull has flexed enough to start twisting the superstructure. The superstructure looks like it has just about rotted out, and has been painted with buckets of enamel to keep the wood from falling off.

Down in the engine room, there is a lot of water in the bilge, and a whole bunch of nasty things... improper wiring, hoses in poor shape, corroded fasteners and hardware, and old old engines that have been poked and prodded to keep them running. Without actually seeing the boat, I couldn't pass absolute judgement, but this old girl is past the turn of a restoration that would be anywhere near worth it. This owner would be better off to dump the liability of this boat, and if they want a Pacemaker of this size and vintage, buy one that is restored. It would be half the price of doing this one.

That isn't harsh, or unromantic, or anything else. It's just the way it is.

sdowney717
07-22-2010, 07:49 PM
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2006/07/060710164527.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060710164527.htm&h=357&w=300&sz=21&tbnid=Hb7VibxCo8_WuM:&tbnh=245&tbnw=206&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsea%2Bisopods&usg=__AIR704Gb3XLY3G52WFUnbvF44c4=&sa=X&ei=dedITMjtGY_SsAPHwI1J&ved=0CBYQ9QEwAQhttp://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2006/07/060710164527.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/07/060710164527.htm&h=357&w=300&sz=21&tbnid=Hb7VibxCo8_WuM:&tbnh=245&tbnw=206&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsea%2Bisopods&usg=__AIR704Gb3XLY3G52WFUnbvF44c4=&sa=X&ei=dedITMjtGY_SsAPHwI1J&ved=0CBYQ9QEwAQmaybe he can trade it to a wooden boat rebuilding fiend for a better one.
Mine was about to go under, I had a full menagerie of sea life growing in the forward bilge. When I saw the sea worms, isopods, gribbles and little crabs swimming around and it was pumping every 15 minutes I knew I had little time left. That boat stunk awful bad when all the sea life living in the bilge died on land.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2006/07/060710164527.jpg

cfortescue
07-23-2010, 12:10 AM
Hi Peter
The boat was in that condition when I bought her. And she sank at anchor. Long story.

Lew Barrett
07-23-2010, 01:10 AM
I would say that this boat does not look like a good economic prospect for restoration, meaning that a better example of a similar size and type can be purchased for considerably less than the cost of repairing the many visible issues inherent in this one. I'm sorry to say that if it were me, I'd walk away. Pacemakers do not bring a special premium on the market, but they are no less expensive to repair than any other like vessel. If I were to go to the effort and expense, I'd want to end up with something very special. I'd assume you would too.

The fact that we come to this conclusion frequently only means that there are many more poor subjects for restoration than there are good ones.

ramillett
07-23-2010, 02:25 AM
You can go from 5 cracked ribs
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv332/ramillett/millett/P1010064.jpg

to ready to finish , fun project at home , $45,000 in a yard . not including varnish , and never had a epoxy joint fail :)
http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv332/ramillett/millett/P1010037-1.jpg

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-23-2010, 06:08 AM
Hi Peter
The boat was in that condition when I bought her. And she sank at anchor. Long story.

Buddy, I ain't blaming you. I have the boat bug bad enough that I have made some of the same romantic mistakes that you are guilty of here. I just want to save you some heartbreak if possible.... That old girl was once a great boat, but from the pictures, former owners were guilty of duct taping and cobbling up repairs all over the place. Not the way it's done. Frankly, to represent her to some nice young couple as a boat that was in any kind of repair is somewhat criminal. Good luck, and if you decide to keep her, you will get any advice I can give.

mucrewbtp
07-23-2010, 09:17 AM
I say if you like the boat, go ahead and fix it. wood boats will never make monetary sense, they are not an investment. No boat is. It will certainly be a long term project but if you enjoy working with your hands and you are willing to learn a lot, go for it. Be prepared to have to take all of the interior out of the boat so that you can access all of the hull. Take a lot of pictures and label everything. Come up with a plan and stick to it. Strip and assess the boat or get a survey. Address ALL of the structural repairs before you even think about cosmetic work. Keep everyting, and keep it organized even parts that are not usable can be kept and used for patterns. This boat will be a big job but if you enjoy the work theres nothing else like it.

Regards,
Mike

sdowney717
07-23-2010, 09:40 AM
I found deconstruction is always harder than reconstruction.
What you need is a well thought out plan of action before you do anything, you need to decide what process to go thru to salvage the hull.

Lew Barrett
07-23-2010, 10:59 AM
It's easy to say from here what one or another course of action should be.
But it's nobody's money and time but yours.

Ask your wife is she will be happy in four years and 60,000 from now with this boat. Even your hose clamps need to be replaced. Almost every photo but the ones taken at 50 feet are discouraging.

On the plus side, we applaud all the great saves here, and the truth is that most wooden boats are great saves, meaning you'd have plenty of company. Ask yourself a few questions.

Would you pay $60,0000- $70,000 for this boat in good condition with fresh power? $80,000?

Are you going to do this work yourself? Meaning do you have the time and skill right now to fix this boat? Remember that before you spend a penny, every month she sits in a yard is going to cost you money apart from just the raw materials.

People are very fast to critique the nay sayers here, or to respond with comments like "fix it if you like it." And while it's true that you should NEVER restore a boat you don't like, even one you are crazy about can still be a daunting prospect. Most people get involved with projects lie this without having a full understanding of what is involved. That in turn implies that they don't even know what they like or don't like.

Based on what I see in the photos, if the question (in your case) is: "does this make sense?" the answer is no. Anybody who tells you otherwise is blowing smoke or hasn't the experience with this sort of restoration. Even if you have $15,000 into this boat already it will still be more financially beneficial to let this boat go. You owe it nothing. Ask your wife if she is ready to go the whole hog for this boat or if she'd like a break. If you have serious doubts together, I can promise you it's easier to let go ow than to gi through with the project, even if letting go seems like a hugely problematic course. Once you get halfway down the road, it gets a lot harder to back out.

My focus is larger powerboats, with a particular interest in pre-war boats.

knottyBuoyz
07-23-2010, 11:10 AM
"The road of life twists and turns and no two directions are ever the same. Yet our lessons come from the journey, not the destination.”
Don Williams, Jr. (American Novelist and Poet, b.1968)

“Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it.”
Greg Anderson (American best-selling Author and founder of the American Wellness Project., b.1964)

Lew Barrett
07-23-2010, 01:26 PM
"The road of life twists and turns and no two directions are ever the same. Yet our lessons come from the journey, not the destination.”
Don Williams, Jr. (American Novelist and Poet, b.1968)

“Focus on the journey, not the destination. Joy is found not in finishing an activity but in doing it.”
Greg Anderson (American best-selling Author and founder of the American Wellness Project., b.1964)

Dreaming with a statement of the obvious at it's finest.

The whole event is a journey and a dream. Which path will you take?

Entering into a restoration of this scope should not be done blithely by someone who is uncertain of the value or the task.

Consider carefully the advice you receive here blithely given, and those who recommend forward motion without having skin in the game.

A serious decision, this.

Soundman67
07-23-2010, 04:10 PM
I am no authority on anything but I have to agree. you always have to consider the cost vs. the gain. so are you in this for boating or boat repair? if you are in it for boating then you would probably be better served to go find another boat and let this one go. costwise there are tons of great boats out there that are in far better shape than this for much less than the cost of getting this one restored.
if you are in it for boat repair as a pass-time then there are more expensive hobbies out there and this ones withdrawal symptoms are far less severe than some. If anyone I know had to do this job it would be minimum 3 years of weekends and evenings to get it back in the water. lots of hobby time. buy a good beer fridge if this is your goal.

Breakaway
07-23-2010, 08:47 PM
Even if I loved this make and model, I'd have to look hard for a similar boat, that needed less serious rehabbing and/or possibly just refinishing; something I could use while restoring to perfect glory; a floating, safe, operational work in progress. But thats me. I DO envy the guys who dive into the fully life consuming projects and come out the other end. I just dont have the time.

Kevin

kulas44
07-26-2010, 09:34 PM
RUN

chuckt
07-27-2010, 10:15 AM
I'm no expert but I did a lot of looking for a boat last year and have to agree with the naysayers. There are a bunch of decent boats for sale out there that would require a whole lot less work than this one. I bought one that was in pretty darn good shape. I could have had her on the water now but I elected to go ahead with a bottom replacement that would have been due in a few years. I looked at several other candidates in the size you have that could have been bought for around 20K and been ready to go in the water with just a few repairs. Good luck

Soundman67
07-27-2010, 01:56 PM
I just did this search. and came up with this. have a look.

http://boat.jaxed.com/cgi-bin/boat.cgi?cat=boa&itm=pacemaker

sdowney717
07-27-2010, 08:41 PM
http://delaware.craigslist.org/boa/1863017146.html

this one looks like the owner has taken care of it and it is cheap

Soundman67
07-28-2010, 02:36 AM
that looks like a lot of boat for $7000. Somebody better grab that.