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rickinnocal
07-14-2010, 12:14 AM
Any experienced builder give me a rough ball park figure for the weight of a 58' wooden box mast, spruce, with hardware attached?

I know it'll only be a 'guesstimate', but it's for a shipping quote, so that's all I need.

This is the mast when it was still on it's old boat.

http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz213/rickinnocal/Mastup.jpg

Richard

WX
07-14-2010, 12:44 AM
If you post some dimensions such as cross section and thickness of the staves it might help. My 30 ft birdsmouth mast weighs in at 87 kgs and that's 8 inches at the partners and 4 inches at the mast head.

rickinnocal
07-14-2010, 02:07 AM
If you post some dimensions such as cross section and thickness of the staves it might help. My 30 ft birdsmouth mast weighs in at 87 kgs and that's 8 inches at the partners and 4 inches at the mast head.

Don't have them, don't have any way to get them. :(

I'm going to WAG it, and guess that a mast twice as long weighs four times as much. That's about 750 lb. If I'm way off, I guess the trucking co will let me know.

Richard

Dan McCosh
07-14-2010, 05:34 AM
Our spar is hollow spruce, about 65 ft., and weighs about 850 lbs with the rigging. You are probably pretty close at 700 lbs. or so.

Lucky Luke
07-14-2010, 06:29 AM
Yes. My first "gut feeling" was 300 Kg.
...but what happened to "it's old boat" ????.... a nice looking old lady (actually looks better than this box-section mast)!

rickinnocal
07-14-2010, 11:24 AM
...but what happened to "it's old boat" ????.... a nice looking old lady (actually looks better than this box-section mast)!


She was cut up. I believe she was grounded hard on a bar, and when they looked inside for repairs they found the scantlings to be massively rotted. I never saw the boat, that's just what the guy selling the mast told me. My design happens to call for a 58' mast, so this would be the perfect size for me. It's to go on a 54' motorsailor that was launched in 1996 but has never had a mast stepped. (There isn't even a hole in the deck for it to go through.)

This is the intended "transplant recipient"...

http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz213/rickinnocal/Before%20work%20started/GloryBonhard.jpg

Richard

Garret
07-14-2010, 11:38 AM
Any experienced builder give me a rough ball park figure for the weight of a 58' wooden box mast, spruce, with hardware attached?

I know it'll only be a 'guesstimate', but it's for a shipping quote, so that's all I need.

This is the mast when it was still on it's old boat.

Richard

Wow - I see some really low #'s here - but maybe it's a misunderstanding of terms. By "with hardware" do you mean standing rigging as well? If so, I have a 65' wood mast. Triple spreader, double forestay & babystay, diamond stays on the top spreader, 2 shrouds per side. With all winches, running rigging (cable) & standing rigging including turnbuckles, everything weighs approx. 3800 lbs.

I'd guess that your mast with all standing rigging will be at least 2500 lbs.

Jay Greer
07-14-2010, 12:33 PM
The only real way to know, it to weigh it. There are too many variables to warrant a stock answer.
Jay

rickinnocal
07-14-2010, 03:02 PM
Wow - I see some really low #'s here - but maybe it's a misunderstanding of terms. By "with hardware" do you mean standing rigging as well? If so, I have a 65' wood mast. Triple spreader, double forestay & babystay, diamond stays on the top spreader, 2 shrouds per side. With all winches, running rigging (cable) & standing rigging including turnbuckles, everything weighs approx. 3800 lbs.

I'd guess that your mast with all standing rigging will be at least 2500 lbs.

That's a big difference from the earlier estimates.

I am not going to buy the mast before travelling up to Oregon to check it out. I would do that by driving - it's about 450 miles from here. My plan, if I decide to take it, would be to remove the running and standing rigging and the spreaders and throw them in the back of the truck for the drive home. The boom could also come back with me.

Thus by "with hardware" I was meaning with the gooseneck mount, the cleats and winches, the masthead and its associated sheaves, and the spreader brackets/shroud tangs. This would be what was left for a trucking company to collect.

I also heard from a guy with a mast to sell in Florida who says he sold a 60' aluminum mast to a guy from Texas who drove off with it towing behind his pickup. Length and weight wise I could do that legally with a dolly about 2/3 of the way down the mast, but I'm not sure about towing something that long.. especially given that it means driving over Grants Pass with it!

Richard

Garret
07-14-2010, 03:24 PM
That's a big difference from the earlier estimates.

Hence my concern! My 3800 comes from the scale on a crane that the operator said was quite accurate. Having moved all the standing rigging many times - I can attest to how much it weighs!


I am not going to buy the mast before travelling up to Oregon to check it out. I would do that by driving - it's about 450 miles from here. My plan, if I decide to take it, would be to remove the running and standing rigging and the spreaders and throw them in the back of the truck for the drive home. The boom could also come back with me.

Thus by "with hardware" I was meaning with the gooseneck mount, the cleats and winches, the masthead and its associated sheaves, and the spreader brackets/shroud tangs. This would be what was left for a trucking company to collect.

I also heard from a guy with a mast to sell in Florida who says he sold a 60' aluminum mast to a guy from Texas who drove off with it towing behind his pickup. Length and weight wise I could do that legally with a dolly about 2/3 of the way down the mast, but I'm not sure about towing something that long.. especially given that it means driving over Grants Pass with it!

RichardI'll bet the standing rigging is about 1/2 the weight - so you'd be down to 1200-1500? Maybe less.

As far as length goes - check local regs, but I've traveled in cars with 8 man shells on them. ~70' overall. Thing is they weigh 300 or so. Technically, you could put it on a rack on a pickup (a rugged one!!) - but I'd be very concerned about the weight up so high. Towing it (if you can get a dolly) wouldn't be bad. Towing (& especially backing) a long trailer is much easier than a short one. Couple of thoughts: 1) make sure the mast is well lit! A board with flashers/brake lights/turn indicators at the back end & even some probably yellow flashers along its length (along the top?). 2) I'd be tempted to leave spreaders on one side, set the mast so the spreaders are on top, & rig a shroud to go along from the truck, over the spreaders & to the butt somewhere (to a winch you could use to tighten it up? to stiffen it up.

Sounds like a fun adventure!

rickinnocal
07-14-2010, 04:19 PM
As far as length goes - check local regs, but I've traveled in cars with 8 man shells on them. ~70' overall.

Both CA and OR allow a total length up to 75'. I have actually been thinking some more about doing this myself, and a dolly towards the back, and the front 5 or 6 feet over the truck bed, should keep me well under that.


Technically, you could put it on a rack on a pickup (a rugged one!!) - but I'd be very concerned about the weight up so high.

I'd also be worried about the ends bouncing up and down. The truck (Dodge Ram extended cab) is almost exactly 20' bumper to bumper, so I'd have 20' of unsupported mast sticking out each end. A 'downhaul' from the ends to the bumpers would resist flexing, but that's still a lot sticking out.


Towing it (if you can get a dolly) wouldn't be bad. Towing (& especially backing) a long trailer is much easier than a short one.

I have a couple of small trailers. One of them would probably make a good 'organ donor' for an axle with a mast cradle welded to it. 10 foot or so of the butt sticking out behind that, and 5 or 6 feet over the truck bed wouldn't actually be that unwieldy a rig.


Couple of thoughts: 1) make sure the mast is well lit! A board with flashers/brake lights/turn indicators at the back end & even some probably yellow flashers along its length (along the top?).

Well, a brake / turn light board certainly. Other than that, I'm thinking drive up one day, see it, buy it, and then make an early start the next day to get back down in daylight all the way.


2) I'd be tempted to leave spreaders on one side, set the mast so the spreaders are on top, & rig a shroud to go along from the truck, over the spreaders & to the butt somewhere (to a winch you could use to tighten it up? to stiffen it up.

That might not be a bad idea. I was also thinking of a whole line of those bright triangular flags they use to decorate car lots to make sure it was highly visible. A shrould strung over spreaders would be a good thing to fix those to.


Sounds like a fun adventure!

"Adventure" is a word that means "Someone else in a world of trouble a long way away" :)

Richard

Garret
07-14-2010, 04:42 PM
My ex-wife (note the 2 letters before the hyphen;-) once said that I was incapable of having a vacation, I only had adventures. I asked what the difference was. She said that with a vacation you get a week or 2 of stories, with an adventure you get a lifetime. So yeah, I have adventures.... Still, yours sounds like fun. Since it's a mast - shouldn't your flags be signaling flags?

Making a pivot mount in the bed may prove interesting. A gooseneck hitch would be perfect. I'd think you'd want very little overhang in the bed so you'll be able to turn corners w/out putting the butt through the side of the bed though.

Lights make a big difference. I once bought a boat (glass I/O - boring) from a guy who said "Yeah I'll take that little, but it has to leave the yard now. Not tomorrow, now." I gave him his $ & headed for the nearest parts store - as none of the lights worked. At the parts store I got 2 new lights & a bunch o' wire & got rear lights working on it. Carefully bent the bottom of the NY plate over so the 7 year old date was less obvious (as well as bending the rest of the plate so it didn't look as though I'd done what I'd done) & headed on my way. About 20 miles back into VT I got pulled over. "License & registration please. Don't bother trying to look for the trailer registration".

I explained my dilemma & he checked me for warrants, etc. Came back to the truck & said "I did notice that you had all the lights working". I explained that I'd just put new ones on & he said "So, will you promise me that you'll drive straight home & not move it again until it's registered?" Yessir! He then said "Thanks for getting the lights working & have a safe trip".

I had another trip where I was stiff-hitching a 28' box truck. Had a flashing yellow (strobe) light on the back & pulled over to check the hitch. A cop stopped, asked if everything was OK & thanked me for the good light on the back. Never noticed (or chose not to notice) that there were no plates on the truck.

Working lights are good...;-)

Dan McCosh
07-14-2010, 08:40 PM
FWIW, a friend with a sister ship once weighed his mast, rigged, which where the 850 lbs. comes from. 3,800 lbs for a similar size mast would imply 20,000 lbs. or so of ballast just to keep the boat upright without attempting to sail. Seems a bit high.

Canoeyawl
07-14-2010, 08:41 PM
I'd also be worried about the ends bouncing up and down. The truck (Dodge Ram extended cab) is almost exactly 20' bumper to bumper, so I'd have 20' of unsupported mast sticking out each end. A 'downhaul' from the ends to the bumpers would resist flexing, but that's still a lot sticking out.

Perhaps a couple of 2x4's rigged as compression spars from the bumpers to the ends of the mast, and from the same bumper attachment straight up to the mast - it would make a truss.
Could all be done with lashing.
Piece of cake...

Garret
07-14-2010, 09:28 PM
FWIW, a friend with a sister ship once weighed his mast, rigged, which where the 850 lbs. comes from. 3,800 lbs for a similar size mast would imply 20,000 lbs. or so of ballast just to keep the boat upright without attempting to sail. Seems a bit high.

Curious how you arrive at the 20,000 lb # (not arguing - trying to learn). The boat weighs 40,000 (roughly) including the mast. I'll guess @ double the weight of the mast in ballast (8,000 lbs) - maybe more -say 10,000. It's also deep - she draws 8'3".

In my mast weight, I am including all the standing rigging, which weighs at least 1000 lbs (including 10 turnbuckles - which weigh 70 to 100 lbs) - once again guessing, but the rigging noticeably squats my 3/4 ton pickup. The mast has a lot of taper, so I'll take a WAG that 50% of the weight is in the bottom 1/3 or so.

Dan McCosh
07-15-2010, 06:33 AM
Curious how you arrive at the 20,000 lb # (not arguing - trying to learn). The boat weighs 40,000 (roughly) including the mast. I'll guess @ double the weight of the mast in ballast (8,000 lbs) - maybe more -say 10,000. It's also deep - she draws 8'3".

In my mast weight, I am including all the standing rigging, which weighs at least 1000 lbs (including 10 turnbuckles - which weigh 70 to 100 lbs) - once again guessing, but the rigging noticeably squats my 3/4 ton pickup. The mast has a lot of taper, so I'll take a WAG that 50% of the weight is in the bottom 1/3 or so.

Not exactly a totally accurate calculation, but if the cg of the ballast is about 5 ft below the water, it acts like the weight on a lever against the cg of the mast. That cg would be about 30 ft. in the air for a 65 ft. mast, hence it takes about 5-6 lbs. of ballast to balance one lb. of mast. That by itself would not create a righting moment--you would need considerably more ballast to offset the force of the wind when under sail Our rig involves double spreaders plus jumper strut, with running backstays and intermediate diamonds, etc. I can pretty much lift the whole bundle, without the headstay, which is roller-furling. We use a crane with a 1,000 lb. capacity to step the mast--I'm wondering if the crane operator was lookng at a strain guage measuring something other than the straight lift load when he said 3,800 lbs--that sounds roughly like the load on a side support strut or something like that. Our boat is 26,000 lbs, displacement, so your rig could be considerably heavier.

Michael D. Storey
07-15-2010, 06:55 AM
If I was you, which I ain't, but if I was, I would go to the mast, which I reckon is on the ground, or so, and rent some scales for this purpose. and weigh one end and then the other, If I has to know. Otherwise, I would heft it and think, well, I reckon three or four guys could lift this thing, and then write down 6 or 7 hundred pounds. Or, I'd say chrisolmiti! and then I'd write down 1800 pounds.
Even with experience as a rigger and mover of heavy things, including a locomotive, I would strongly suggest that you do not move this yourself. It is likely that there will be a boat transport from its current location to nearer your intended location, and I am sure that they would appreciate the extra freight, and you would appreciate the discounted price, seeing as they were going that way, already. Support over the full length will help avert heartbreak.

JimConlin
07-15-2010, 06:57 AM
I moved Damfin0's 44' mast over the road on a long boat's trailer. The mast was raised on a rack and extended over the bed of the pickup tow vehicle and about 10' aft of the trailer. Worked OK.

The mast weighs 130 lbs., so weight was not an issue.

Garret
07-15-2010, 07:40 AM
Not exactly a totally accurate calculation, but if the cg of the ballast is about 5 ft below the water, it acts like the weight on a lever against the cg of the mast. That cg would be about 30 ft. in the air for a 65 ft. mast, hence it takes about 5-6 lbs. of ballast to balance one lb. of mast. That by itself would not create a righting moment--you would need considerably more ballast to offset the force of the wind when under sail Our rig involves double spreaders plus jumper strut, with running backstays and intermediate diamonds, etc. I can pretty much lift the whole bundle, without the headstay, which is roller-furling. We use a crane with a 1,000 lb. capacity to step the mast--I'm wondering if the crane operator was lookng at a strain guage measuring something other than the straight lift load when he said 3,800 lbs--that sounds roughly like the load on a side support strut or something like that. Our boat is 26,000 lbs, displacement, so your rig could be considerably heavier.

Makes sense. I saw the guage & it was with the mast suspended from the crane - with the cable vertical & the mast at a very slight angle from being held by straps.

Even without any rigging, I can only lift the truck end of the mast about 1-2" for a few seconds. I cannot lift it free of the sawhorse 25' away, so I know I'm not lifting the whole thing. When I next put the stick in, I'll have to see the #'s again. If the mast is like everything else on my boat, it's way heavier than most any other boat of similar size.