Cedar Strip Canoe Repair - Any kind souls to help me plan the rebuild of this beauty?

[theredknight]

Hi all,
I just got myself a Great Canadian Huron, a 15 or so foot cedar strip canoe which is in sore need of repair.

I myself have never done this but I'm a pretty decent woodworker and I share a woodshop on the farm with a master craftsman. He hasn't done much boat repair either but the two of us are handy folk, thats for sure.

So without further ado, here is my girlfriend holding the canoe (she's excited):

http://i.imgur.com/VIiWpl.jpg


Further, here is a diagram I made of the damage the canoe has sustained. The darker the color, the worse the damage, or more difficult to repair.

http://i.imgur.com/8c5Nk.png


From here, I've taken pictures of each one of the damaged pieces which I will put in subsequent posts. Any suggestions on how to do this, what tools to use or other links in the forum will be most helpful. I've been reading a lot and am learning a lot, but I'm superstitious and always want a real person giving me some of their own hands on wisdom before proceeding.

Thank you kindly!

[theredknight]

The biggest problem of this canoe is a fairly large tear down the side of the hull. This tear goes through the fiberglass and through the cedar.


Here is the tear:

http://i.imgur.com/dhk7nl.jpg

http://imgur.com/jYnVHl.jpg


Repair Strategy
So, I'm looking at this: How to repair a cedar strip canoe (http://howdyyadewit.blogspot.com/2010/04/fixing-busted-old-stripper.html) and honestly haven't perused too much on these forums so any links are graciously appreciated.


Here is what I'm going to try as far as my steps:

Cut away the Fiberglass
Cut out the Cedar strips
Cut replacement Cedar strips
Glue Cedar strips into place
Fix the Cedar strips to any ribs with nails
Sand the Cedar strips nice and smooth
Epoxy coat them (or put on Fiberglass patch and then epoxy coat that?)


Yeah I have to read up on the fiberglassing portion before that but the rest seems straight forward. Any tips there or links are great.

Of course, there is also the concern of whether or not to strip down the entire canoe and start a rebuild from the start, so if thats something I should think of, please tell me know! ;-)

Materials Questions
Here are my main questions on tools/materials:

Cedar Strips - I'm thinking of Western Red Cedar or Northern White if I can get it. I have a lot of Aromatic (Eastern Red) Cedar on the farm which I don't want to use due to epoxy dissolving issues. What would you folks use?
Epoxy - do I use the same type for glueing cedar strips into place as I do later to coat the fiberglass/hull/everything?
Fiberglass - any recommendations on places to get this or brands that work well?
Orbital Sanders - which grits tend to work well for this work? Any recommendations on a make/model?


So I figure I can patch this fairly easily using the technique in the link above unless someone wants to correct me. Any links or recommendations are greatly appreciated, as I said.

[theredknight]

The bow and stern decks are really bad too. This is going to have a lot to do with how I do the gunwhales later.


The Damage
Here are the images:

http://i.imgur.com/KgEofl.jpg
The Stern

http://i.imgur.com/16qvul.jpg
The Bow

Repair Strategy
I figure I'll try to rebuild this out of some form of light wood. We have a lot of white pine here and that's pretty light though it does dent easy too. If anyone could let me know on what type of wood they would use, I'd be glad to hear it.

My steps here would be:

Cut wood to measurements using the old piece and the gap
Sand/Polyurethane/epoxy coat it (suggestions here for what to use?)
Nail it into place.*


* Now this is going to be tricky too because I haven't researched what wood to use for the gunwhales. I've read that some people use white pine as I wrote above, but I'd love a definitive voice on this to help me make my decision.

So...
Main Questions

Wood - What type of wood to use for the decks?
Epoxy - What type of coating do I use on the decks?
Attaching Decks - What type of nails / how do I secure this?
Decks to Gunnels or Vice Versa - Should I do the gunwhales first and attach the decks to those or vice versa?


again, thanks!

[theredknight]

Now I'm assuming this is cane weaving but I could be wrong. (I read that in a post somewhere.)

Here is the Damage:

http://imgur.com/yCP3jl.jpg

Notice on the right hand side the cane is not attached for the seat.

Here are my ideas:

I might be able to glue this.
I might be able to nail this.
I might even be able to glue and then nail it.
Other option is to replace the weave and do the whole thing right.*


* Now it might be hard to tell from the picture on that, so I might take another one on this. I don't figure this is to be too hard, but again any suggestions are appreciated.

[theredknight]

So I've gotten to the ribs now. It seems they were chewed up a bit by some hungry little fellows. This basically means that for genuine repair, I'll need to take them out, bend some replacements and put them back in.

This step will probably come along last as its the only point which is highly cosmetic I believe. However, I'd be curious of how to go about it from tips from the experts.

The Damage

http://i.imgur.com/RPj2hl.jpg

The Repair Plan

Carefully pry out one of the Ribs.
Finish my steambox and build a press form for them.
Get some replacement wood for this.. Is this cedar*?
Steam it and drop it in the form within 30 seconds
Coat it in Epoxy / Poly
Glue / Nail it back in to the boat**


Questions

Wood - what type of wood do I use to replace a rib? Just try to match it?
Attaching - What are the fine steps on glueing and affixing it back into the boat? Do I epoxy it first or after re-affixing it?



Again, any recommendations on this would be wonderful.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

You need to talk to Canoez, or Fitz. They will chime in, but you should transfer this thread to building and repair.... Cheers

[theredknight]

So the main piece of the canoe that's absolutely gone are the gunwhales. I'm going to need a lot of help on these.

The Damage

http://i.imgur.com/6DM3Y.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/5tYspl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ldlIWl.jpg

You can see the problem of this...


Repair Strategy

Remove all remnants of old rot
Remove all nails, etc.
Get some matching wood (what type?)
Steam it, bend it (how does one make a form for this?)
Sand/ Poly / Epoxy new gunwhales
Affix them to the canoe - nails, glue, etc



I figure that covers it but I'm really scratching my head at this one..

Main Questions

What type of wood should I use for gunwhales?
What dimensions should I use for the gunwhales?
How do I make a good form to clamp the gunwhales to? Or do I just steam and clamp them to the actual canoe?
Do I use all one piece for this? Do I use multiples to make steam bending, etc nicer? pros / cons?
Do I coat it and then put it on or do I epoxy it after?
Do I do the gunwhales before the deck or vice versa?
Does that last image mean I should replace ALL of the ribs if they're that bad? If so, where to even begin...


As I said, this is the part of the puzzle I don't know if I can really just hack my way through, it's going to require a bit more finesse.

Thanks for any tips!

[theredknight]

Here is the basic patching tutorial I linked above. The one question I have is what to do if there is only a little rip in the fiberglass and nothing else?

http://i.imgur.com/A5dCb.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3CpTS.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/RudTp.jpg

Any tips or links on this? Thanks much!

[Peerie Maa]

Now I'm assuming this is cane weaving but I could be wrong. (I read that in a post somewhere.)

Here is the Damage:

http://imgur.com/yCP3jl.jpg

Notice on the right hand side the cane is not attached for the seat.

Here are my ideas:

I might be able to glue this.
I might be able to nail this.
I might even be able to glue and then nail it.
Other option is to replace the weave and do the whole thing right.*


* Now it might be hard to tell from the picture on that, so I might take another one on this. I don't figure this is to be too hard, but again any suggestions are appreciated.
Does not look like cane, could it be rawhide? I think that your only viable strategy is to re do it.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

It's traditional nailed construction and the fiberglass is just a sorry repair to make it last longer. To really bring the hull back, along with all the other deficiencies, you will probably have to go over the who hull and re-clinch all those nails. So the glass has to go. The hull may have origianlly been covered with canvas but I am not enough of a canoe authority to say for certain.
Our wooden canoe authority is Fitz who also inhabits the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association site with a lot of other experts. You need their combined input.
http://www.wcha.org/
They can make more of your photos than we can.

[Canoez]

Where to begin...

Not to be discouraging, but Great Canadian Canoes were/are not of the best quality. Unlike what Chuck has said, that canoe was more than likely built as you see it with the fiberglass covering. It is not a "sorry repair" but perhaps an "unfortunate build" Great Canadian, Old Town and others offer what I would refer to as "traditional" canoes, but with fiberglass coverings intended to show off the wood, rather than a canvas to provide waterproofing. As far as I know, they still make them like this. The fiberglass coatings that were put on for clarity were generally epoxy - epoxy bonds very well to the planking and can be difficult to remove - still, nature appears to be starting the removal process for you. If you soak the bot to get the wood wet and use a heat gun, you will soften the resin and it allow you to scrape/peel it off. If it was polyester resin (which I doubt) it may come off more easily.

Overall, I think you may wish to evaluate how much time and effort you want to put into the boat before you get started. When you get done with your restoration, it will still be a Great Canadian canoe. That being said, if you are willing to proceed, I'd recommend -as others have - to go visit the WCHA.org website and forum. They specialize in wooden canoes. Also, I'd pick up a copy of the Wood and Canvas Canoe (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/Wood-Canvas-Canoe/productinfo/300-202/) by Jerry Stelmok and Rollin Thurlow that is available from our hosts. This book is the "bible" for wood and canvas canoes like you have. Another good choice would be Building the Maine Guide Canoe (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/Building-The-Maine-Guide-Canoe/productinfo/300-010/) by Jerry Stelmok - a worthy addition to the first book. Still, here's what you'll need:

Spruce is one of the typical materials for inwales - you appear to need to replace most, if not all of the inwale - the ends are mostly rotted away and broken in several locations in the middle.

White Cedar - particularly Northern White Cedar - is desirable material for rib replacement. Mostly, your ribs appear fairly good with some damage at the tops where they meet the gunwale - it may be possible to scarf on some new tips. I should note that the "half-ribs" in your canoe are mostly cosmetic and unless damaged I'd leave them alone. For bending the ribs, you can form them over the outside of the hull - just move them down the hull to a slightly smaller section that corresponds to the inside shape where you want to replace the rib.

Cedar - Northern White, Atlantic White or Western Red are all used for planking stock. You'll need some to repair what's under the fiberglass. Hot water and a swab at the end of a stick will make the planking lay down on the ribs.

Decks - you obviously need new ones at both ends of the canoe - your choice. Something with figure and color is always nice, but you know the saying about silk purses and sow's ears....

Seats. That style of seat is called "Babiche" and is a woven rawhide that is done much the way snowshoes are made - it shouldn't be difficult to replace. Sno-Seal on the Babiche will protect it when you are done.

Stems - more than likely the tip of the stems are rotten like the inwales. Typical stem material would be white oak although it isn't uncommon to find other hardwoods and even softwoods used for them.

As an overview: Your biggest challenges are to get the damaged fiberglass off the hull and then do a good evaluation of what is underneath. Once you've done that, I'd repair/replace the inwales to give you a sound foundation to continue. The rib and stem repairs would follow and finally the planking repairs. During this whole process, you need to work slowly - taking a rib or two at a time to maintain the shape of the hull. If you remove too much of the structure too quickly, it will lose shape. You may need temporary bracing to help hold the canoe's shape. It may be in the form of "thwarts" to keep the inwales from spreading under the rib tension - it may be thin strips attached to the outside of the hull with short sheet-metal screws to keep the hull shape "fair". Once the planking is done, turn your attention to seats, thwarts, decks and grab-handles if desired.

At this point you'd need to decide whether you want to put a fiber-reinforced composite back on the canoe or if you want to put traditional canvas/filler/paint on it. Personally, I vote for the canvas as it makes it much more repair-able in future. I think this will make perfect sense to you after you've tried to remove the fiberglass. When the covering is on, you will need new outwales - they may be able to flex into place as the sheer is fairly flat. If in doubt, steam the ends before bending into place. Outwales on this style of boat have a rabbet on the back surface to cover the canvas and the top edge of the planking which is cut down about 3/4" to facilitate the tacking of the canvas.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

See? Told ya you should move it. They found you!!:D

[Canoez]

Well, PMJ - after your suggestion, he also found me via PM and the thread, How To Unbuild a Boat (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?84182-How-to-Unbuild-a-boat).

RedKnight - you might also want to look at the fasteners that were used. They appear to be steel at the top of the ribs. Ring-Shank bronze nails would be a better choice there. Old Town Canoe (among others) will carry the kind of restoration hardware you're looking for. Take a good look behind the bow seat - you may be missing a thwart.

[Fitz]

Man, I am swamped busy getting ready for the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association Annual Assembly to be held over the next few days at Franklin Pierce University in Rindge, New Hampshire. Canoez's advice is spot on. Save the canoe with some effort and you won't be sorry.

If folks are looking for wooden canoe things to do this week, consider a trip to Rindge.

Fitz.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Great Canadian was building fiberglass-covered rib and plank canoes as far back as maybe the early to mid 1970s. At the time, they were selling for about half of what other brands of the same basic thing sold for and they did it by cutting corners. The finish on the wooden parts was pretty rough and I really suspect that at least the early ones were covered with fiberglass and polyester resin, not fiberglass and epoxy resin. They simply weren't expensive enough at that time for them to be using epoxy. Look at the third photo from the top of the thread (upside down hull). All those big whitish areas are delaminated to some extent and show signs of water intrusion. This would be very rare with epoxy, but is pretty common with polyester. Delaminated glass, if not punctured, won't generally leak or sink the boat, but it lets water (and air) in from the inside, between the wood planks and glass, and will spread and most likely eventually rot. The hull will really never be sound until the old fiberglass is removed and replaced, either with traditional canvas (probably the best choice) or with epoxy fiberglass that's actually got a chance of staying attached to the hull (trickier to do and somewhat controversial).

Removal of the old glass is a pretty big and nasty job, slowly heating it with a heat gun and trying to scrape or peel it off without tearing up the surface of the planking. Stuff like re-stringing the seats is trivial by comparison. Trying to sand the glass off is not a good option and usually results in a trashed canoe for most people. Fiberglass is very hard, cedar is very soft. The instant you cut through the glass, the sander attacks the cedar like mad and you end up with dents and humps all over the outside of the hull.

I'll second the suggestion to get at least one of the Stelmok books. Before you try to re-build one of these boats, you need to know how it was built in the first place. Then you'll have a much better idea of what you're getting yourself into and can decide whether or not you think it's worth the time and money involved (which will be considerable). It's restorable, but it's a really big job. You may find that other boats on the used market might be a better value when it comes down to the bottom line.

[chiefypoo]

Look around, Ibeen restoring and building canoes for 40 years and I have seen some good ones and some bad ones some just not worth repairing. I will tell you what I tell my buddy's cruse around lakes and all over there are still old wooden canoes in barns and in yards etc. most can be rebuilt, the ones where they haved fiberglassed and used staples to hold the glass all over I mean all over are not worth th
e trouble. What you do wan't to do is get all the old hardware off and keep for use later.
get Jerry Stelmok book on repair. that and plain common sense will get you through. Don't hesitate asking old folks around If they know of any people with canoes they havent used in years. be prepared to pay a couple hundred for one in fair shape. If you get one and have any questions get on the forum with a phone no and I'll help any way I can

[Upshur]

"and castles made of sand , melt in the sea.... eventually" Hendrix

[Todd Bradshaw]

For rebuilding an old canoe shouldn't the proper Hendrix quote be "You got me floatin'...." - or if it's really a hopeless case, "Let me stand next to your fire..."?