Caledonia Yawl-Okoume?

[BillAnderson]

I'm trying hard not to beat a dead horse, but I've been reading a lot of debate over the quality of plywoods, and now find myself far more confused than I expected to be.

I plan on building a Caledonia Yawl to sail around Cape Cod and the bays of Maine. The boat will not be taken out (intentionally) on gut-wrenching adventures and will be trailered for 98.5% of it's existence.

While I am willing to pay for decent materials, I have small kids who's education needs funding and an old house that needs repairing as well. Occasionally, my wife grumbles something about putting food on the table. It's unreasonable, I know, but that's marriage.

I know that there's a few CY builders out there, and some in my region. What are you using for ply?

Thanks in advance,
Bill

[James McMullen]

Top shelf Occume would be perfect. Acceptable would by Hydrotek or Aquatek. Don't even consider using anything less than that though. The money you spend on the irreplaceable essential structure of your boat should be the very last place to economise. Save your thriftiness for replaceable items and fancy stuff, not for the actual hull of the boat.

[Venchka]

Try Maine Coast lumber for your needs. They deliver (or did) down into MA & CT. You might be able to meet them somewhere without going all way to Maine. If you build with okoume, the boat will be light. Add ballast. Good luck. Post progress pictures.
You do know that the first C.Y. was designed for Cape Cod? Very fitting to build another for those waters.

[Wacoflyr]

Okay, hate to fight the consensus, but I asked John Brooks about this very subject, along with several others that I respect. I came down for meranti for my pooduck. Simply, meranti is far more rot resistant. It is also stiffer, heavier, but the local stuff is made in the east. The tendency for okume to rot put me off, as I intended to paint the boat, and not to encase it in fiberglass. Just an opinion from a rank beginner, but formulated with input from experts. Maine coastal carries it.

[Thorne]

My limited experience with marine ply has all been Hydrotek Meranti, and lovely stuff it is, too. Suspect I'd go for it over any of the lighter, more fragile and rot-prone products for a CY.

[BillAnderson]

Thanks!
I'm in total agreement with you that skimping on the hull wouldn't be wise.

I am equidistant from Boulter Plywood and Maine Coast Lumber. MCL stocks Shelmarine which I hear is quite good.

[TerryLL]

I've read somewhere that the garboard, which is 1/2-inch on the 4-plank CY, can be a challenge to get bent on. Probably more of a challenge with meranti than with okoume. Can anybody report on bending on a 1/2-inch meranti garboard?

[James McMullen]

Dragonfly was built with occume ply in 1996. No epoxy "saturation"--just paint. No rot. Store a boat on a trailer in a garage and rot is a complete non-issue. I'd rather save the 50+ pounds of weight.

[Venchka]

Elisabeth Grace has 12mm (1/2") Shelmarine khaya garboards. I wasn't present for the garboard installation. John Anderson got them on someway somehow. Glad he did.

[BillAnderson]

Thanks for the input. I'm glad to hear first-hand experience about the Meranti.
Wayne, I read about your boatbuilder's good reports of working with Khaya on the CY forum elsewhere. I can get that at Boulter.
No one has mentioned Sapele, which is about 3x the price of Meranti and double that for Shelmarine Okume. Is that just overkill?
Thanks!

[TerryLL]

I guess I gotta ask, would CDX be appropriate? How about underlayment? OSB? T-111?

[BillAnderson]

Would it make sense to use Sapele or Kahya on the garboards and Okume on the uppers? Am I over thinking all of this? Probably. This is what happens when one waits for plans to arrive in the mail.

[TerryLL]

I like the idea of using meranti for the garboard because of the added weight and toughness. But okoume is attractive for the garboard because it's so much more flexible. In general, I'd opt for the lighter hull with more ballast.

[Venchka]

I like the idea of using meranti for the garboard because of the added weight and toughness. But okoume is attractive for the garboard because it's so much more flexible. In general, I'd opt for the lighter hull with more ballast.

Good points Terry.

All of the plywood in Elisabeth Grace is Shelmarine khaya: 6mm, 9.5mm & 12mm. I'm happy. Paying Maine Coast Lumber only hurt a little bit. The plywood was a small fraction of the total cost. More importantly, buy enough. We almost didn't buy enough. Iain's material list is lacking. There is no allowance for centercase, rudder cheeks, etc., etc. On the other hand, you are close to the source. If you need more, go get it.

One very nice thing about the Shelmarine plywood: No voids. Anywhere. Zero. Zip.

[BillAnderson]

Wow, great feedback, thanks!

[kenjamin]

I used Sapelle on Xena but I was cash rich at the time. It was $160 a sheet (three years ago) for 7 ply plywood that was a little over 3/8" thick. I figured I could use less than the 1/2" thickness for the garboards because of the harder, stiffer material. It was plenty hard enough bending the garboards into the shape at the stern with the 3/8" plywood. I'm not sure 1/2" all sapelle ply could be convinced to make those bends.

About a month ago we dragged Xena across some oysters and scratched her bottom with them. We had left her in a creek that had drained somewhat while we were off exploring. In the scrapes the paint was gone but the oysters did not get through the first veneer of the surface although the first veneer was affected. I'll be avoiding the oysters as much as possible in the future but I was pleased that the sapelle held up as well as it did.

[BillAnderson]

Hi Kenjamin! I've read a wealth of information from you and Wayne on the CY, thanks for documenting so much of your experience.

[Wacoflyr]

Hello again. On my pooduck, meranti worked fine for the garboards. this was 3/8" or 9mm stuff, and it is really cranked at the bow. I couldn't compare it with okume, but with a little persuasion from some bronze screws and jorgensen clamps, it's on there. No question though, it weighs more. I guess it all depends on how you plan to use your boat, and how much weight matters to you. Good luck!

Wacoflyr

[StevenBauer]

I thought Shelman had folded. Can you still get the Shelmarine?

I've been a little worried about the Meranti as there have been several cases of delamination reported here.



Steven


I just checked maine Coasts website. They say this:


We carry the Shelmarine® plywood line, which is certified by the Lloyd's Registrar for Okoume, Sapele and Khaya and made to British Standard 1088.

Shelmarine® Okoume plywood is the only Okoume plywood that is Lloyd's register-certified for the application of pleasure craft and small craft construction.

Because Shelmarine® Okoume is treated with a preservative, it is given timber classification rating by Lloyd's register as equivalent to a minimum of moderately durable.



in the Mernti section they say this:



GUARANTEE: Maine Coast Lumber guarantees all of the marine plywood specified as BS1088 will not delaminate (within a reasonable time from purchase). Any sheets that do not conform to the specifications of the British Standard 1088 will be credited in full. This applies only to the cost of the plywood itself. Please remember that Meranti is rated as a more durable species than Okoume plywood, however due to the high standards of Okoume manufacturers, Okoume plywood should be considered the "first" choice for BS1088 plywood.

[Venchka]

A phone call to MCL will confirm/deny the rumor. Web pages aren't always up to date.

[StevenBauer]

I could stop in tomorrow on my way home from work, I'll be driving right by. :)


Steven

[BillAnderson]

Well, I got the plans today. I'm sitting with a bottle of Narragansett and looking over the plans. I won't deny that it's a bit intimidating.

[TerryLL]

Well, I got the plans today. I'm sitting with a bottle of Narragansett and looking over the plans. I won't deny that it's a bit intimidating.

Bill,
You need to get WB 183-184-185. Geoff Kerr has built many CYs and the three-part article he wrote takes a lot of the mystery out of the process.

I bought the plans last year and they are tugging at me. Finding a spare 300 hours is the problem, and there's a couple other boats competing for my time.

If you need some help with the plans, just give a shout.

[BillAnderson]

Thanks Terry, I will. Fortunately, I work in the North Shore of Boston, so we have some pretty good maritime sections in our libraries. Will stop by tomorrow.
This will certainly be the most complex woodworking project I've ever taken on.

[TerryLL]

This will certainly be the most complex woodworking project I've ever taken on.

Complex yes. But it's just a series of simple steps. The key is to do them in the right order. Nothing worse than having to rip out good work.

[Venchka]

A couple quickies now. Lot's more later.

Make semi-circular limber holes in the frames. The space Iain shows is too small for water flow and can't be painted easily. I think I saw this in a photo of Rowan's ballast/bilge.
Connect the outboard, high points of the floor ends in a straight line. Forget the curve. The floor boards will be nice and level and a lot easier to walk on securely than the sloping floor boards shown on the palns. The floors will also be 2-4 times as strong. Northern white cedar works famously for all the seating surfaces and floorboards.
The boat will not weigh what Iain says on the plans. Double that number. Or more. Don't buy a trailer until you have a good idea of the boat's weight. Conversely, the boat will carry a lot more cargo than you imagine.
If you aren't handy with a sewing machine, Brad Hunter of Gambel & Hunter treated me right.
Good luck. We expect pictures.

[BillAnderson]

Complex yes. But it's just a series of simple steps. The key is to do them in the right order. Nothing worse than having to rip out good work.

Good point. Fortunately, I will not do this alone. With the advent of internet forums, you can ask the dumbest, most basic questions and get expert, patient answers and encouragement. That's pretty cool, if you ask me.

[jsjpd1]

You can do it Bill, just one step at time and you'll be done before you know it.

Jim

[epoxyboy]

Good points Terry.

More importantly, buy enough.

I'll second that - not only is it unbelievably annoying to run out, but "meranti" in particular can be one of several species from several countries, ranging from dark red almost like mahogany, to quite pale with a much less figured grain. There is a good chance that what you buy today wont look anything like what is available 18 months later when you need one more sheet.
Okume seems to be a bit more consistant, but is lighter, softer and more easily damaged.
If you get it all at once, it has a reasonable chance of all being the same.

Pete

[BillAnderson]

Thanks for that tip, I was thinking of buying the sheets piecemeal.
As for the floors, I thought they looked like ankle-twisters as they neared the bow.
I picked up a big old bandsaw last night, and the weekend is devoted to getting the garage ready for the project.
On the CY board at boats.duncan.com, I've just discovered that I have a neighbor in the area who has a CY, and he generously offered me a sail on her.
This is quite exciting, and I never would have considered building a Caledonia Yawl if it weren't for the input from the good folks at this forum.
Thank you!
Bill

[Venchka]

One sail in Rockland Harbor and I was hooked.
You kinda sorta maybe need to make the decks/bulkhead decision by the time you turn the hull over.

[BillAnderson]

Having looked at some of the other postings, I was thinking of building her open, and then after a season or two, outfit her with decks if I feel it's needed. Or, do half-decks. Not sure.
Planning a balanced lug and mizzen as well.

[TerryLL]

For a coastal cruiser I very much like the decked version with the enclosed side benches. Lots of spots to store small bits of gear, lines, fenders, rain gear. The amount of gear for an extended coastal cruise has a tendency to really clutter up an open boat.

The lug rig seems to be the most popular, but that gunter rig has to be better upwind. And it's reported to sail well under jib and mizzen. Anybody have any thoughts on the gunter?

[BillAnderson]

For a coastal cruiser I very much like the decked version with the enclosed side benches. Lots of spots to store small bits of gear, lines, fenders, rain gear. The amount of gear for an extended coastal cruise has a tendency to really clutter up an open boat.

That's pretty much the rationale I'm following. I figure the first couple of seasons would be in sheltered waters as the kids are small and we need to get familiar with the sailing characteristics of the craft. Simple day jaunts from a trailer, basically. If I do it open to start, then I get the boat in the water a bit quicker than building decks.

That's my thinking anyway, I don't know if it matches reality in any way.

[Venchka]

Study the plans. I'm not sure that you can change your mind later.

[TerryLL]

Study the plans. I'm not sure that you can change your mind later.

Sure he can change his mind later. Think chainsaw.

[Venchka]

Crude. Rude. Effective. One way to do it.

[BillAnderson]

I was planning on using a chainsaw as my main tool for building. Good for cutting, ripping, planing and hammering.

[Venchka]

but seriously folks..........
There are parts attached with epoxy and screws required for the open plan that would get in the way of bulkheads and decks. The fore and aft mast partners come to mind first.

[TerryLL]

but seriously folks..........
There are parts attached with epoxy and screws required for the open plan that would get in the way of bulkheads and decks. The fore and aft mast partners come to mind first.

Yes, I agree. Modification would be difficult and require destruction of some existing structure. Far better to build the boat you eventually want.

[Venchka]

Thanks! I thought perhaps I was crazy.

[jsjpd1]

No, you're not crazy Wayne.

Bill,
There's a lot of time to think about how you want the interior to be fitted out while you're planking up the hull. I strongly suggest you decide what you really want by the time you roll her over. Speaking as someone who built in half decks, I don't think it added that much time to the project, maybe an extra week or two. Even the completely open version requires some work and head scratching. I don't know about anybody else, but the hardest time I had fitting out the interior was just starting out because there were no reference points. Once the first piece was in the rest went much easier.

Jim

[BillAnderson]

Oh! OK, that makes perfect sense. Somehow I hadn't been thinking that the interior required epoxy, only the hull.
Jim, I'm thinking about half-decks as well, how is that working out for your family? I'm glad to hear that they didn't add a significant amount of time.

[TerryLL]

This is the interior layout that really gets my juices flowing. This boat was built by Denman Marine.


http://www.denmanmarine.com.au/id69.html

http://www.denmanmarine.com.au/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/CYmorefitout08145.jpg

[Venchka]

Crazybird gets an upgrade back in '98.

http://boats.duncan.com/caledoniayawl/images/lockb.jpg

Similar hull. Different rig.

[jsjpd1]

Yes, I really like that interior too. Personally, I really like the half decks. We do a lot of sailing off the beach because we keep our boat on a clothesline mooring instead of paying for a slip in the harbor. (I'm probably the only guy out there who doesn't have a trailer for his trailer sailor and keeps his CY on a mooring all summer.) Anyway, the half decks are nice because they make getting in and out of the boat really easy from the beach. Plus, they provide a really handy place to toss stuff.

[BillAnderson]

Mmm. Me too. I think something like this is within my range, although mine may not be as elegant (also from Denman Marine photo gallery (http://www.denmanmarine.com.au/id72.html)). Looks like half-decks and open seating:

http://www.denmanmarine.com.au/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/tirrikinterior.jpg

[Venchka]

Oh. What Y'all are calling half decks are what is shown on the plans with a bulkhead. To my mind (always a terrible place), half decks imply no bulkhead. No clue why I thought that. I do like the HUGE hatch on the stern deck. Perhaps to swallow the outboard when not needed? I still prefer flat floors & floor boards. I would also prefer dogleg scarphs on the seat planks. Or laminated curves. Maybe for a production shop what they did is quicker, faster, cheaper.

[James McMullen]

I find this to be a good, useful interior.

http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/45018/2661193970088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2661193970088484686WMsGqP)

And from my upstairs window. I couldn't get my iphone camera to zoom to get jer all on one shot while hanging out the window.

http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/46246/2678822650088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2678822650088484686VlNNUz)http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/45768/2221940480088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2221940480088484686JwNfoO)

[BillAnderson]

Wayne, my salty jargon isn't really up to speed yet. Sorry!
James, mmm, yes, that's quite nice. Does that give kids room to move around a lot?

I'm hoping to go for a sail with Chris, a fellow New Hampshirite (I think that declines to New Hamp****e) and neighborly CY owner, who has generously offered to give me a tour and answer any and all questions I may have.

I'm clearing out the garage, looking over the plans, and pricing out the plywood now.
Thanks everyone, for your comments and support!
Bill