Re other threads concerning epoxy failures

[ssor]

I am beginning to get the sense that epoxy can be rather temperamental in many regards. mixing ratios are critical, surface preparation is demanding and easily mismanaged, application is almost a matter of holding your mouth right.
Where does the technology apply and where does the folklore end.

[AstoriaDave]

Utter hogwash.

Follow the directions and it is as reliable as rain. Sure, you've got to get the mix within 10%. Sure, the surface needs correct preparation. Neither of these is difficult or tricky. They are basic techniques, well documented and detailed by every reputable manufacturer. Just follow the blinking directions!

[wizbang 13]

I must have used 500 gallons of it . The only time I had trouble was when chips from a planer got into the resin resevoir of a pump while being filled. Now THAT was a messy dayafter.

[RodB]

Read the latest version of "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction" and the System III Epoxy Manual... just to name a couple great epoxy references... if you learn anything from these sources, you will find epoxy use quite straight forward.

If you do a simple calibration on the "snow cone type" of pumps, its pretty damn hard to screw up. Just mix well for a few minutes and its a done deal.

RodB

[James McMullen]

Epoxy is as reliable as the applicator. I've used over 20 gallons in the last two months alone without a single problem or issue. Measure perfectly, mix thoroughly, apply properly. Use reputable, consistent brands.

[pipefitter]

I have never heard reports of failures from off brands of epoxy due to the product itself. Of the off brands I have tried, US Composites, FGCI, Progressive Epoxy Polymers Inc., Envirotex, Flex-coat and some others I can't recall , have never had a failure. Now you can say, well you have never built many boats with these. True, but I have built parts of boats and down and dirty repairs, including some wood cored transom replacements on some high powered fiberglass hulls, one of which is still going strong nearly two decades down. Only since I have gotten into the ultra-scientific approach to modern wood/composite boats have I seen such a scrutinous affliction towards product correctness, much of the time, that of which exceeds proper application and selection of the base materials.

And yet, perhaps the most perplexing part for me, being that many boats, with such high regard to the highest priced and most pedigreed of formulas, rarely ever see water.

Now, such as the case of my own humble Simmons skiff, using the half priced US Composites products, with the boat being used every weekend with heavy net usage (meaning: I can sometimes get as much water in the boat as out), extreme UV and temperature exposure, and not so much as a pock mark, blister, delamination or structural failure of any kind. Heck, even the paint refuses to fall off. And this with a hull that is powered beyond it's designed intention in choppy conditions and getting airborne at times outrunning the thunderheads.

So what gives? Have I been lucky?

[RodB]

Pipefitter... I think epoxy use is a bit like SCUBA diving... if you get careless for a moment, it can really bite you in the ass. BUT... if you are detail oriented and stay focused on a standardized technique, things will go along fine.

RodB

[cap'nRod]

If there was a glue on the market that had a failure rate as high as epoxy, it wouldn't be on the market for long because nobody would buy it.
It never ceases to amaze me how pure bs and marketing can propel a mediocre product at best, (i.e 'epoxy') into something approaching legendary mythical aspects ...and where product 'failures' are always attributed to 'user error' ...and never the product itself. F'n remarkable.

PL400 is a better product than 99.9% of epoxies for boatbuilding.

[cap'nRod]

By the way, note that I said "PL400" and not "construction adhesive". Huge difference. 'Liquid Nails' is crap. As are many others. PL400 is the shiznits, however. I have never, ever, ever seen PL400 fail ...ever, in over 20 years of constant use in varied circumstances from pouring rain to sawdust-ridden environs that would bring epoxy to its knees inside of 10 seconds. So when it absolutely positively has to hold, ....do yourself a favor and reach for the tube of PL400. Leave the epoxy for the Apple iphone fanboys.

[Candyfloss]

Cap'n Rod, as always, is full of S**T. I thought he'd got booted off the Forum? Epoxy, and I speak from 30 years experience, is the best marine adhesive ever thought of. I have NEVER had a failure that wasn't my own stupid fault. Buy a reputable brand, follow the directions near enough, you can't go wrong. I believe there are issues with White Oak, but I do not know from personal experience. It is not available in NZ.

[cap'nRod]

Yeah, Cap'n Rod is full of #$%^, pay no attention to all of those tales and examples of epoxy failures in boatbuilding that you read of around here ....it's entirely the _users_ fault. LOL!

[pipefitter]

Pipefitter... I think epoxy use is a bit like SCUBA diving... if you get careless for a moment, it can really bite you in the ass. BUT... if you are detail oriented and stay focused on a standardized technique, things will go along fine.

RodB

That's a good point, Rod, but again, the technical information contained with the whys to use a certain product over another, almost requires that someone be detail oriented to get the full benefit. Perhaps that is why I prefer the plank on frame renditions of older design construction methods where the adhesive becomes overkill in short order.

I have used epoxy since I was old enough to work with my hands, from fishing rods to boats and no matter the brand, it was always dependable and predictable. Even after sitting stale on the shelf for a few years, still managed to live up to expectations and to where I never gave it another thought in service.

I am just not hearing the complaints (this forum alone should be loaded with them) and it's not because folks are not using these 'sub-par' formulations. Half the time, when you do hear some comparisons, it is minute differences in say how the cloth wet out and I often have to wonder if perhaps they were just having an off day, different atmospheric conditions or all the other little gremlins that are seemingly not name brand specific.

[john welsford]

Yeah, Cap'n Rod is full of #$%^, pay no attention to all of those tales and examples of epoxy failures in boatbuilding that you read of around here ....it's entirely the _users_ fault. LOL!

Well, possibly Cap, Rod has had some issues with epoxy resin glues, but very few others have, including me. I worked for years in a role that saw me checking the quality control systems and results for the bonding of structural wooden beams. While they did not use Epoxy glues, I do, and having access to the testing machinery took the trouble to make samples using many glues including epoxies from three different suppliers and test them through a wide range of operating temperatures, humidities, wood species, joint pressure, surface preparation methods and error rates on the mix ratios.
The most forgiving glues of all were the epoxy resin glues. Not quite the strongest, but they are so strong that the difference is pretty much irrelevant, and the gap filling qualities plus the ability to mix n match to make customised product for special application cannot be equalled by anything else on the market.
They do have some limitations, ( Candyfloss, you can buy White Oak from Moxons in Hull Rd Mt Maunganui ) as in high tannin content woods, limits on temperature although there are various hardener mixes for high or low temperatures which will help there, and you need to be within about 10% on the mix ratio which is not hard to do. I have judged the mix by eye even and still had it go off ( but I dont reccommend it) .

I also tested a wide range of polyurethane construction adhesives, and while I wont go into the brands because we dont get the one that Cap'n Rod mentioned, but have yet to find any polyurethane glue that proved stronger than about 60% of epoxy resin glues strength in formal testing. This result is consistent with several reputable testing agencies who went to a lot more trouble than I did with their testing methodology.
I'm not knocking PL 400 and the like completely, but if you were to build one of my boats which are engineered for epoxy or Resorcinol, and it failed, it would be entirely your problem and any other designer I know would say the same.

John Welsford

[john welsford]

Sorry Candyfloss, I just reread that and I sound a bit of a know it all, my apologies.
Yes White Oak can be obtained, but is as expensive as hell and only available from a very few specialist suppliers such as the one I mentioned below.
John Welsford



Well, possibly Cap, Rod has had some issues with epoxy resin glues, but very few others have, including me. I worked for years in a role that saw me checking the quality control systems and results for the bonding of structural wooden beams. While they did not use Epoxy glues, I do, and having access to the testing machinery took the trouble to make samples using many glues including epoxies from three different suppliers and test them through a wide range of operating temperatures, humidities, wood species, joint pressure, surface preparation methods and error rates on the mix ratios.
The most forgiving glues of all were the epoxy resin glues. Not quite the strongest, but they are so strong that the difference is pretty much irrelevant, and the gap filling qualities plus the ability to mix n match to make customised product for special application cannot be equalled by anything else on the market.
They do have some limitations, ( Candyfloss, you can buy White Oak from Moxons in Hull Rd Mt Maunganui ) as in high tannin content woods, limits on temperature although there are various hardener mixes for high or low temperatures which will help there, and you need to be within about 10% on the mix ratio which is not hard to do. I have judged the mix by eye even and still had it go off ( but I dont reccommend it) .

I also tested a wide range of polyurethane construction adhesives, and while I wont go into the brands because we dont get the one that Cap'n Rod mentioned, but have yet to find any polyurethane glue that proved stronger than about 60% of epoxy resin glues strength in formal testing. This result is consistent with several reputable testing agencies who went to a lot more trouble than I did with their testing methodology.
I'm not knocking PL 400 and the like completely, but if you were to build one of my boats which are engineered for epoxy or Resorcinol, and it failed, it would be entirely your problem and any other designer I know would say the same.

John Welsford

[pipefitter]

Yup... your Simmons Sea Skiff is wonderful lookin' vessel..

Thanks. It's just a good boat, Larry. I never worry about it being good looking enough to keep from using it for what it's worth. No matter how I wash it, still has the essence of redfish and trout that never entirely goes away. After reading the cautions of epoxy selection, I am convinced now that it must be the fish oils that are keeping it all together. :D

[Lucky Luke]

Hi all,

I may be one of the persons whose failing trials may have been the cause of the question asked in this thread, having reported failures in a West System glued joint.

Just to help, and without intention of entering a debate which, I am afraid, I won't have the time to entertain, here are the responses from West System (nice and helpful) technical advisors:

"The reason your unthickened epoxy glue joint failed (or exhibited low tensile adhesion) is that you create a glue starved joint. As you apply neat epoxy to both surfaces of the d.fir and then put them together with medium clamping pressure , the epoxy penetrates into the wood and leaves a void (molecularly), and the bondline thickness is compromised cause a starved joint. This is why the use of the 403 microfibers is crucial for laminating because it allows the epoxy to penetrate the wood but also maintains a wet bondline.

The epoxy did not fail as you suggested, it was used improperly. The mechanical properties of the 105 resin exhibit a tensile strength of 54 mPa."

This precisely states that, as I had presumed, 403 microfibers (or equivalent) should be used, but for other reasons: not to reinforce the epoxy as I presumed, but to help avoiding glue joint starvation.

Then, to my question of how to do a tight lamination since the "How to" guide only mentions using pure 105 resin, the answer has been:

"The guidance for laminating tight wood joint would be to wet out both surfaces first and allow the epoxy to penetrate and then re-wet both surfaces and apply light – medium clamping pressure. This ensures the bondline is not starved for glue."

Please understand that this post is only intended to help and spread the information, not to fire-up the debate or criticize West System by any means, but also to show that specific procedures must be followed in the use of - in this case: West System epoxies - but also in whichever other one, and that these procedures will vary depending on the characteristics of the products one is using.

[wizbang 13]

I do not know of an "equivalent" to WEST 403. Does anyone?

[ssor]

I have used epoxy in small batches since 1967 and not had any trouble with it. I laminated a white oak boom gallows with epoxy 12 years ago and so far in is not showing signs of coming apart. I am sure that preping a joint on monday and leaving the work uncovered until wednesday is asking for trouble. Where I have had failures was when I tried to put the repair in service too soon. I have a paper shredder that broke its gear case. I washed the grease out of it and glued it with epoxy and then added a bit of glass cloth reinforcement. The repair has been in service longer than the original gear case.

[James McMullen]

Cap'nRod! How are ya, sugar? I missed your adorable cantankerousness while you were away!

X X X O O O

:p

[ssor]

Rgarding Cap Rod and PL-400 I compared prices on day and found the PL-400 was more costly than some off brand epoxy. Those handy tube are only 1/10 gallons and what you don't use goes bad in a week.

[Todd D]

I have been using various epoxies on a more or less daily basis since the late 70s. I have never had a failure. I can be extremely detail oriented, but generally am not when it comes to epoxy. I mix to the nearest 100 milligrams and let the mixing ratios go at that level of precision. The only problem I have ever had is having the epoxy in the cup kick before I was finished applying it. That was ALWAYS due to letting it get a bit too warm (using it in the sun on a hot day). That is an expected problem and not a failure. In my experience, anyone who can use a simple scale and has the patience to properly mix the resin and hardener can do decent epoxy work unless they screw up the surface prep. All you really need for surface prep is clean and dry with adequate tooth for bonding. That of course, includes removing any amine blush. I always assume there is amine blush and give the surface a good scrub with warm water.

[Bob Smalser]

Many of these claims and prejudices are silly. I even saved a couple for nomination to the Boatbuilding Voodoo Hall of Fame.

No one glue does everything, let alone everything well. They all have their niche depending on how well their individual characteristics fit what you need. Moreover, glues only have to be stronger than the lignin that holds the wood fiber bundles together, and all of them are if used properly.


General Notes on Glues and Goos


Resorcinol: The marine standard. If you can get 70 degrees F or higher for an overnight cure and consistent and high clamping pressure with no gaps, you won’t go wrong using it. Warm the wood ahead of time and cover the gluejoints overnight with an electric blanket to make sure. Likes wood at 10-15% EMC, according to Navy tests. Long open time. Repairable with epoxy. Ugly red glue line.

Marine Epoxy: The repair and restoration standard. Bonds well to a wide variety of materials, and usable in almost all flexibility and temperature conditions. Needs no clamping pressure, only contact…fills gaps well. Likes wood below 12% EMC. Repairable with itself, joints can sometimes be broken apart for repair using heat. Clear glue line and can be dyed to match the wood. Controllable open time with different hardeners. Slightly permeable to water vapor and there are reports of failures in fully saturated wood and with White Oak. Very sensitive to UV, requiring protection, and doesn't like heat. If you are scarfing planks that will require steambending, use resorcinol instead.

3M 5200: A rubbery, polyurethane sealant in various colors with adhesive properties sometimes used as a glue. Fails as a glue under water saturation without high clamping pressure, and without the proper strength testing I couldn’t do here, it’s not recommended as a stand-alone marine glue. Repairable with epoxy.

Liquid Polyurethane: Gorilla Glue, Elmer’s Probond, Elmer’s Ultimate, and others. Versatile in temperature and bonding wet wood with moderate open time, these glues aren’t rated for below waterline use but initial use shows potential as a marine glue. Likes high clamping pressure and fits similar to resorcinol…it won’t fill gaps. Will successfully glue green wood at 30% MC, but as moisture increases beyond the minimums required to catalyze the glue, the bond becomes weaker. Repairable with epoxy. Doesn't mind heat...poly can be used to glue steamed laminations without cooling them first. Noticeable, yellow-brown glue lines.

PL Construction and Subfloor Adhesives: These polyurethane goos show promise as marine glues with further testing and use. They work like 3M 5200 but cure and behave like liquid poly. Appear to bond well to everything epoxy does, and more where epoxy and liquid poly won’t, perhaps because of a higher isocyanate content…it bonds to difficult surfaces only cyanoacrylate super glues will bond to. The only general-use glues I’ve found that will bond difficult aliphatic-contaminated surfaces. Appear flexible to temperature and moisture content with gap-filling ability, but as construction adhesives, open time is shorter than liquid poly. Appear to like high clamping pressure, and unlike other glues, wouldn’t bond at all without at least some. Repairable with itself and epoxy. Glue line as in liquid poly.

Urea Formaldehyde Plastic Resin Glue: The old interior furniture standard, and in older marine applications that required well-blended glue lines. Still preferred by many, as it is a no-creep glue easily repaired using epoxy. Long open time, it needs tight fits and 65 degrees F or higher for an overnight cure…it doesn’t fill gaps. Best glue line among them all and moderate water resistance still make it useful for protected marine brightwork applications. A relatively brittle glue and UV sensitive, it requires protection….but its brittleness is an aid to reparability, as joints can often be broken apart for repair. An inexpensive powder with a short, one-year shelf life.

The Titebond Family of Aliphatics: Convenient and fast. No mixing, just squeeze. Short open times, fast tack, and short clamping times. Flexible in temperature and to a lesser extent in moisture content, but this water-based glue can freeze in unheated shops. A flexible glue, it has been reported to creep under load, sometimes several years after the joint was made. The latest “Titebond III” appears to be a stronger glue than its two predecessors. Difficult glues to repair, as they won’t stick to themselves and no other glues will except cyanoacrylates, which are too brittle for general use. Epoxy and fabric aren’t bonding to aliphatic glue lines in marine strip construction, compounding repair difficulties. While not definitive, the new PL Premium appears to bond well to Titebond III residue and is worth pursuing by those repairing old white and yellow aliphatic joints.

[chuckt]

Chuckle. What fun.

I'm basically an idiot and I haven't had any problems with epoxy yet although admittedly I'm working on my first project.

[TerryLL]

I am beginning to get the sense that epoxy can be rather temperamental in many regards. mixing ratios are critical, surface preparation is demanding and easily mismanaged, application is almost a matter of holding your mouth right.
Where does the technology apply and where does the folklore end.

What am I doing wrong?

I've built three epoxy/ply boats, plus numerous refits and repairs on other boats. I've used Cold Cure, West, and System Three.

To date, over 30 years of epoxy use, I have never had a joint failure, delamination, or failure to set.

Can someone please tell me how I can get this stuff to fail?

[Garret]

I have used epoxy products of various types for over 30 years. Some professionally, some not. Devcon plastic steel can be used to repair scored shafts (apply, let harden, machine, install bearing) - these repairs have lasted for years. Repaired a cracked engine block in an old Plymouth. The guy who bought it (for $100) called me to complain 1 1/2 years later. Not about it leaking (it wasn't) but about the fact that it was there at all....

A friend did have trouble with West. I gave him my cans with West pumps to use for a small repair. He complained that it wouldn't harden & sure enough, 3 days later, it was still tacky. I asked him how he'd mixed it & he said "I know it's 5 to 1, so I carefully put in 5 pumps of the resin & 1 of the hardener". So - I figure that was roughly 25-1. :rolleyes:

I have seen batches do just fine @ 4-1 & 7-1. The former hardens darn quick & the latter takes longer. However, mixing reasonably accurately is the best way to go.

As many others have posted, proper surface prep is key - but that's true for any gluing situation, no?

[cap'nRod]

Here's some tips for using PL400 in boatbuilding. 1) It indeed can be used successfully without clamping, as in a fillet when joining two pieces at 90 degrees. The key is keeping the fillets small, i.e. thin in thickness (not exceeding 1/4" or so), otherwise the PL400 will skin over and take forever to dry (we're talking weeks here). The good news is that if this happens, you can simply peel off the outer skin and re-smear the fillet to a thinner profile and you're good to go. Even days later, in fact. 2)On large structural fillets where you've got the room and there is a need for joint reinforcement, you can easily embed a length of wood or 'block' into the fillet to strengthen the join. 3)If you get it on you hands ....and you will ...simply wipe off the excess and then let the rest dry, then peel it off like old skin after 30 minutes or so. Fun, too.

[James McMullen]

Can someone please tell me how I can get this stuff to fail?

You've been doing it all wrong, Terry! :mad:

Measure out the proportions by eye--a real craftsman doesn't need the crutch of measuring cups. If you get used to carefully measuring things, pretty soon that sort of effete nonsense is going to creep into the rest of your work.

And worrying about temperatures and moisture content and all that stuff--you think Master Carpenters have time to worry about that? When you're working on a job, you don't have time to research all that crap. Trowel it in and collect yer paycheck, that's what it's all about.

And all that nonsense about stirring it up thoroughly is just playing into the hands of the epoxy manufacturers who are trying to tell you what to do. Well, they can't boss me around, no sir! I usually just spread the resin on one side, the hardener on the other and clamp 'em together!

Of course, if you buy into the hype and think you have to actually stir that stuff, you can at least save yourself a lot of time by using the right power tool to whiz it up!

http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/3429/2737030720088484686S500x500Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2737030720088484686JfBkHA)

Now get a clue, you pathetic wanna-be Master Carpenters!


:D

[oznabrag]

Can someone please tell me how I can get this stuff to fail?

Yes.

Let impatience drive you to put the joint in service before the glue has cured.

It helps to wipe the joint with 90-weight gear oil before applying the adhesive, as well!

Joking aside, Southern Yellow Pine should be added to the species' that are a little ornery about epoxy. It's usually not a problem, and the problem is usually a failure to properly 'tooth' the joint after using dull tools to shape it.

[TerryLL]

OK, I'm beginning to see the errors of my ways.

First thing I need to do is throw out that digital scale I use to insure precise mixing ratios. Then back off on the mixing time, and then just slap the stuff on a dry joint and hope for the best. Also need bigger clamps so I can squeeze the joint bone dry. That should do 'er.

Oh, and would basmati rice work OK for a thickening agent? Cooked of course.

[ssor]

I have carefully read this thread and conclude that a person that can read and follow direction and does, can use epoxy successfully. The brand of epoxy or the mix ratio whether 5:1 or 3:1 or 1:1 is just the characteristic of the brand and not a measure of the quality. Just don't mix brands.

[cap'nRod]

What am I doing wrong?
Can someone please tell me how I can get this stuff to fail?

Epoxy? That's easy. Just start using it as a glue to bond edges. LOL!

[erster]

I don't worry about epoxy failures. In addition to using epoxy to hold the fitted parts in place I use 18-8 stainless steel sheet metal screws and bury them deep in the wood to hold the parts together. Run them in till they stop spinning and cover the head with thickened glue. Yep epoxy is crap no matter what the formula for mixing or the brand. You can't count on epoxy. Just listen to CapnRoboRod.

[JimConlin]

Since 1976, I've uses over 100 gallons of epoxy from West System, Epon, Defender, Raka, SP (Gurit) and others. I have had two (2) occasions where the epoxy did not behave as expected.

The first was attributed to an early West System hardener pump that adjusted its own calibration and the resultant mix was off-ratio. I understand that the pump design has been corrected. The new pumps have yellow heads. Fortunately, the use was a coating and could be removed without blowing away other work or materials.

The second failure was with a set of glass composite parts made with Raka materials. The parts were made with many batches of epoxy, measured by weight, a total volume of nearly 5 gallons. After completion, the parts were covered with a tarp and exposed to the ambient temperatures of a Massachusetts back yard. Hardly a taxing test. All of the parts crumpled under their own weight as if made of cheddar.

Some epoxy vendors publish the results of actual lab tests of the physical properties of their products, others feel that they can get away with hand-waving like "if it's stronger than gopherwood, that's enough". Others publish numbers, but when pressed, admit that they're estimates and not based on lab tests. They're made up. Repeated challenges on WBF for vendors to actually certify the physical properties of their products have not been anwered.

I think I know what this means.

[pipefitter]

Some epoxy vendors publish the results of actual lab tests of the physical properties of their products, others feel that they can get away with hand-waving like "if it's stronger than gopherwood, that's enough". Others publish numbers, but when pressed, admit that they're estimates and not based on lab tests. They're made up. Repeated challenges on WBF for vendors to actually certify the physical properties of their products have not been anwered.

I think I know what this means.

What have you built that has relied on these #'s? If we were to scrutinize, many of our builds engineering would also have to be subjected to lab tests and built under lab conditions perhaps. I have yet to see a project on this forum where such discrepancies are not typically covered with a significant deal of redundancy.

If it does indeed matter that much, there is certainly that option, but in most cases, fairer priced products will have sufficed.

[Candyfloss]

Epoxy? That's easy. Just start using it as a glue to bond edges. LOL!

Wrong again Cap'n.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/23013101/388780086.jpg

My twelve year old cutting board. Laminated in Radiata (Monterey Pine) & an Island hardwood called Taun, using WEST System epoxy. Constantly wet, then dried in the sun. You see those end strips coming unstuck? I don't either.

[amish rob]

This is amusing for the undertone that has nothing to do with adhesives.
I only use epoxy for laminating cloth, mostly because I spent 20 years learning to use another type of waterproof glue.
All glues can fail, if given half a chance, so don't give them the chance.

[Tumzara]

James is that a "Worm-drive Skilsaw"??? The official tool of the Master Carpenter!!!Wow!!!

[JimConlin]

What have you built that has relied on these #'s? If we were to scrutinize, many of our builds engineering would also have to be subjected to lab tests and built under lab conditions perhaps. I have yet to see a project on this forum where such discrepancies are not typically covered with a significant deal of redundancy.

If it does indeed matter that much, there is certainly that option, but in most cases, fairer priced products will have sufficed.

There's some serious engineering in this boat. Note that the masts and crossbeams are unstayed. The mainmast is cantilevered 40' above the deck.
http://www.conlin-boats.com/p1050077c.jpg
http://www.conlin-boats.com/img_0468b.jpg

Please don't try to tell me that 'made up' numbers are adequate.

Someone building lauan pirogues can use wallpaper paste for all I care. They can amuse themselves wondering what material will fail first. I don't like that game.

[erster]

I ask on another thread about the issue of numbers and so called inferior epoxies and got no answer. If we accept the notion that all but one resin manufacturer is inferior and unsafe, why are we not seeing stories about this and warnings throughout the industry that literally thousands of people are at risk buying anything other than the so called gold standard?
There are other boats that carry incredible forces and liabilities that held together only by Joe's Pool Hall resin.;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/Bateau1/BD96_jpg.jpg

[pipefitter]

There's some serious engineering in this boat. Note that the masts and crossbeams are unstayed. The mainmast is cantilevered 40' above the deck.
Please don't try to tell me that 'made up' numbers are adequate.

Someone building lauan pirogues can use wallpaper paste for all I care. They can amuse themselves wondering what material will fail first. I don't like that game.

Well, you do have that option, so, no worries. I am not convinced that is the difference in that boat failing or not, or if that is reason not to trust other formulations.

Like what has been said and proven time and time again, other formulations from essentially the same chemical manufacturers are living up to their general purpose and not much in the way of worries of failures. It's 2010. We have had a good many years of field testing which typically exceeds lab testing anyway, especially considering the lack of application control with user error being the main concern. I would not say that WEST system is any more user friendly than the others.

Glue was a factor in my build and once I started to assemble the boat, it occurred to me how that collectively, the glue quickly became overkill in every single part of the assemblage. Those lab #'s would have only made it more so and at a substantial cost increase and perhaps at the cost of spreading it kind of thin for not wanting to have to purchase an extra kit at those prices. With that said, it is possible that being able to afford just more than enough, could have resulted in more thoroughly treated joints and coatings which may make the #'s a wash.
You can probably find more threads where users were measuring it out by the thimble full for fear of cutting it to the wire with many designs materials lists being on the conservative side in the first place, especially considering the extra material for the epoxy learning curve of so many first timers.

[pipefitter]

There ya go again JimColin..


Ya trashed my thread about PEP review...

In my area... who gives a hoot about what epoxy to use..
That tri-hulled sailing vessel may be nice, but I am not building it and be stuck with the useless thing.. If ya catch my drift...

Here in Jon boat/flat skiff country.. We don't need to get fancy to build a small working/fishing vessels..
Pirogues can be nailed, sealed with latex chalking and painted with waterbased porch paint, still adequate for our own personnel use... if it lasted 5 or more years.. good job, throw it on the bonfire.. and build another one..
Why waste buncha money on stinkin' WS to build small weekend boats?
It ain't like we're gonna get sunken by Kracken, or fightin' with mighty storm at sea..

LOL, Larry. . .remind me to never rip on luan or swamp boats!

I can see where the scientific data may matter, such as those where the wood essentially becomes not much more than a form for the glass. I recall building stringers in FRP boats a number of years ago that were so designed that if the wood core rotted completely away, the FG shell could stand on it's own structurally. That was also the difference with some of the older hand layup boats outlasting their later cousins where they started to save on materials with more material 'efficient' application techniques and equipment.

[perldog007]

Wow!!! I hope I didn't give anybody the impression that epoxy was unreliable or fussy. You really have to understand my skill level or lack thereof. I am the worst carpenter's helper in the first State ever to strap on a tool belt and wield a speed square.

One carpenter I worked for did not believe I actually built my big tortoise when he saw me come in with a dry floor until my wife told him that i really really built it myself. Another one doesn't believe it even after seeing my blog, the build thread over at instant boats, people who saw me build it telling him etc... Remember, these are men who make their way wielding tools and making stuff out of wood....

I am really really mechanically challenged with near zero woodworking skills. The more I play with epoxy the more I like it. I used polyester resin on my first boat like box and find epoxy much easier to deal with.

So whatever you do, throw out my experience due to lack thereof. Also note that everything I ever used epoxy on except that one darn port side hull panel butt joint has been really really secure.

[erster]

Real world sucess rates over the course of so many years almost always trumps lab tests anyday. The same applies in a more measured way in regards to engineering specs and rigging when it comes to building a boat and actually using a boat. We know that numerous production boats has some serious flaws thats built into them after they are put in use such as the simple factor of decks being below waterline in supposed self bailing decks. ;) Its not really complicated issues sometimes either. Arrangements of accessories installed in engine rooms and bilges from the drawing board to the float has a pretty big chance of being other things that will need to be altered. So I error on the side of real world experiences for sure..

[ssor]

I have seen cases where the manufacturer used corrogated cardboard for form and support for the glass and resin.
I have some lauan plywood that I painted with borax solution and allowed to dry then dipped it in fresh water and placed it in a zipper bag and it hasn't gotten moldy in a month and a half. If it were covered both sides with glass and resin the result should be the same. I will determine that this summer with a real test panel.

[amish rob]

I finally have an epoxy failure photo. All I had to do was soak fiberglass with epoxy, use the boat for 10 years, then let a friend lose the boat in a hydraulic. Here's the failure:

http://i821.photobucket.com/albums/zz138/patriotboats/IMAG0034.jpg

Is this my fault, or FGCI's?
I really hate that I cannot convey through inflection that this is a joke. I think epoxy is great stuff, used appropriately.

[Bob Smalser]

Here's another epoxy failure due to operator headspace. Where do I start?

1) White Oak
2) Lams too thick
3) Lams not acclimated and cupped after cure
4) Faying surfaces inadequately "toothed"
5) Insufficient soak time for first, unthickened coat
6) Too much clamping pressure, starving glue joint.

Or some combination of the above.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/388823555.jpg

[paladin]

I have used epoxies for over 50 years, almost 60 as a matter of fact.....always followed the instructions, no known failures. Started with an unknown brand obtained from Tinker Air Force base, sold at auction because it was past the use date...cheap...worked just fine. Migrated to T-88 and never looked back. I used others but always preferred the T-88 as It was a known element. I bought a load made by Reichold Chemical company, O.D. colored, in SEA because it was out of date, built a nice boat with it and it was running 20 years later and no problems...just followed the instructions. We built a nice Ed Horstman designed tri with an off brand epoxy because they were the only ones at the time that would charge us for 75 gallons but ship it in 1 gallon containers thru the APO mail, and it was still sailing over 20 years later. I saw the 40 foot Brown Searunner 10-12 years ago that we had built in 1971, and all it needed was a fresh coat of paint, still solid. It's a helluva lot more forgiving than plastic resin or resorcinol....

[boylesboats]

Here's another epoxy failure due to operator headspace. Where do I start?

1) White Oak
2) Lams too thick
3) Lams not acclimated and cupped after cure
4) Faying surfaces inadequately "toothed"
5) Insufficient soak time for first, unthickened coat
6) Too much clamping pressure, starving glue joint.

Or some combination of the above.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/388823555.jpg

Hey Bob...
What am I looking at? Just curious..

It is true that epoxies are quite picky about surfaces it being applied to, and how it being clamped and such..

I want to try something later.. What I read in one of John Gardner's book.. Just to test a theory

When gluing up a joint using slighty thickened epoxy... Apply epoxy to both pieces to be joined, sandwich a piece of fiberglass tape between both part, then assemble and clamp the parts..

Idea is to keep epoxy from getting squeezed out of joint..

[Bob Smalser]

Hey Bob...
What am I looking at? Just curious..



I was trying different, solid-wood mast step designs for a 19' dory and had run out of resorcinol. It's interesting that the above epoxy-on-oak failed, but the second of my rejected epoxy-oak mast steps is now serving as a mallet, and has held up just fine (look at the thickness of those glue lines):

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/388824026.jpg

I finally settled on glassed plywood as a solution that wouldn't split:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7099973/266881623.jpg

[cap'nRod]

Wrong again Cap'n.

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL458/12377907/23013101/388780086.jpg

My twelve year old cutting board. Laminated in Radiata (Monterey Pine) & an Island hardwood called Taun, using WEST System epoxy. Constantly wet, then dried in the sun. You see those end strips coming unstuck? I don't either.

Big deal. You got lucky. The problem is that epoxy results are highly inconsistent. Witness Bob Smalser's new oak 'mallet' as a recent firsthand example of this inconsistency.

[amish rob]

Paladin:
I have only been on this thing for a short while, but I have come to respect your knowledge and opinions. That is, until I found out you not only read, but follow the instructions. Psshaw... instructions :)
And, you are right, plastic resin and resorcinol are much more finnicky, about joints; but I think temp and humidity affect all glues (adhesives) equally.

Bob Smalser: I've seen your stuff in the rag and on here. Wow.

[gary porter]

What am I doing wrong?

I've built three epoxy/ply boats, plus numerous refits and repairs on other boats. I've used Cold Cure, West, and System Three.

To date, over 30 years of epoxy use, I have never had a joint failure, delamination, or failure to set.

Can someone please tell me how I can get this stuff to fail?

Well if you stick your head somewhere lets say that the light doesn't shine and you have lets say West System epoxy meant for a 5 to 1 ration and you mix it say as System Three , a 2 to 1 ratio then it might not work properly. Both companies tell you that the ratio is critical. I use System Three and its not hard to get a 2 to 1 ratio close enough. As far as that goes I can't imagine that a 5 to 1 is that hard either but maybe a slight bit more of a chance to get it wrong.
Not getting the mixture stirred well enough is also where you might get it to not set properly. Thats about your only chance to do it wrong.
Good Luck with that........:)
Gary

[TerryLL]

For years I used the paper cups with the ounces marked up the sides. For small quantities the ratio was somewhat of a guess, and yet I never had a failure. My sense is that you've got to miss the ratio by a pretty big margin to have a set-up failure. A small percentage on either side seems to be tolerable.

I've recently taken to using a digital scale and mixing by weight and have also had perfect results.

[gary porter]

Yep, have used the graduated cups from System Three for many years and I too have had good luck with them. This weekend I mixed up a small amount of Quick Fair and just guessed at the amount.. Worked just fine. I think most epoxy including Sys III gives a 10% margin and stating that the hardener is more critical but thats not a hard margin to achieve.
All said I think it would be a rare thing to find an epoxy problem that was the result of the product and not one of a mistake on the user's part.
Gary

[ssor]

About 18 years ago I was able to get a double beam baby scale that weighs to 1/4 oz. I got rid of the baby tray and replaced it with a plywood platform. I haven't mixed a batch of any resin without weighing it and always have predictable results. With ester resins that call for 1-2 percent catylist I use a 10 cc syringe for a measure. One pound of resin is about 450 grams and one percent is 4.5 cc's.

[paul oman]

Mix chemical(s) A with chemical(s) B and it forms a 'pretty hard' plastic like mass. Minor changes in chemicals and additives allowed. Now turn it over to the marketing department to create confusion, image and high price. Make label X sound better than label Y. Sell the leftover stuff, old tech stuff, etc. to those crazy boat folks at super high prices. Anything will work on boats, unlike coatings in Nuclear power plants, chemical plants. Old coatings die and go to marine land.

welcome to the world of epoxy and industrial coatings.

paul oman - epoxy industry professional and epoxy company owner for nearly 20years.

[Eric D]

Well said Paul, thanks for your prospective.

So, do you sell to the crazy boat people and do you just tinker with the epoxy or does your company actually develop and produce your own line of epoxy? I would love an insiders view. thanks.