Big Wittholz catboat.

[JimD]

http://http://www.imagestation.com/mypictures/inbox/view.html?id=4143685237&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imagestation.com%2 Fpicture%2Fsraid139%2Fp05b5fd0eaf2986134ec0763359b 6c53d%2Ff6fb9e75.jpg&caption=livabordsailplans

My latest dreamboat. 29ft lod by 12.5 beam. Can be built traditional or hard chined plywood. A floating cottage for the mrs, a sailboat for me. Anyone else like her? (the boat, not my wife :D )

[Roger Stouff]

I have always ADORED that boat, Jim. It's a LOT of boat, though. Cottage? More like a mansion. I love catboats, and that's one of the finest from one of the finest designers.

Build it!

[JimD]

Thanks, Roger. Who knows if it'll ever get built because its sooo big but I am currently drooling over the study plans I got from Ken Hankinson. And hopefully before the day is out I will figure out how to use this new fangled imagestation account I just opened and see if I can actually get the plan pics posted.

[AngWood]

Cool.

http://www.boatdesigns.com/store/Html/Products/images/livabordsailplans.jpg

[Dave Fleming]

Here Jim, a bows on view of Emerald circa 1890's.

Big CAT.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid139/pe41feca690082d4364743282a5286ed2/f6fb2f98.jpg

[Roger Stouff]

:eek: Wow! Thanks, Dave!

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

YUM JD my fav kinds of boat lets build two one for you and one for me. I will donate the shop you donate the exp. smile.gif

Dam I love catboats gonna get me one.
One day soon ;)

[JimD]

Joe - my exp.? What ya been smokin'? :D I think you mean Mr Fleming. But I'm determined to build some kind of biggish floating getaway over the next several yrs and the American Cat boat is probably my all time favourite type. It would have to be the plywood box version which I hope does not cause Dave too much consternation but I ain't no shipwright and a man's gotta know his limitations. The study plans don't mention frame scantlings but its likely framed with something like standard 2X4 stock and gussetted at the chine with plywood. Piece of cake to loft and build the frames, then line 'em up on the backbone and lay on the panels, two layers of 3/8" ply. Easy.

[Dave Gray]

I'm having a hard time seeing this picture. Where did you get the plans? I thought I had googled Wittholz catboats before and found a site that sold his Omen plans (not WoodenBoatStore), but can't find it this time.

[MKane]

Dave,
Here is a link to Good Omen.

Good Omen (http://boatdesigns.com/cgi-bin/store/web_store.cgi?page=goodomen.html&&cart_id=5845011_30559)

Nice boat in a more managable size.

[Roger Stouff]

Good Omen is sweet, but not a liveaboard. Madam Tirza is almost big enough. Then there's Ted Brewer's Chappaquidick:

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/images/chappiquiddick_sail.gif

which at 25' is pretty sweet, too. Brewer's is good, but I still like the Wittholz boats best!

[JimD]

Originally posted by Dave Gray:
I'm having a hard time seeing this picture. Where did you get the plans? I thought I had googled Wittholz catboats before and found a site that sold his Omen plans (not WoodenBoatStore), but can't find it this time.Ken Hankinson sells them at his website boatdesigns.com, along with Good Omen, 20 foot Madam Tirza, and the 11 foot dinghy.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Roger Stouff:
Brewer's is good, but I still like the Wittholz boats best!.

My thoughts exactly, although Brewer's Chappaquidick comes in a double chine version which I like. And I really like the sloop rig option for the Wittholz Live Aboard, too. Also it can be built with either centerboard or fixed ballast keel.

[Dave Fleming]

A Mendlowitz spectacular photo.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid139/p06d074887542af00c984c6da4336e9d7/f6fa5d48.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

OOOOOOOOOH Ouch stop it Dave it aches

Unnn it hurts the craving hurts so bad ;)
Droooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

[Dave Fleming]

Oh so you like Catboats eh, Joe?

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid139/p1294239307f433ffc78df20f7c5b8c44/f6fa5179.jpg

At's on Shelter Island Sound my old sailing/swimming grounds.

[JimD]

Say Dave, keep on tormenting Joe. We're getting quite a cat boat photo album going :D

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Unnnnnng yes catboats do it for me.
OK I admit it I have all the catboat books and they are drool stained.

That At's on Shelter Island Sound looks yummy. I can only imagine what it would be like in that roomy beamy cockpit heading up to Shelter Island to be that guy aft on the windward rail. NOW that would be a 40th birthday gift :D

[Dave Fleming]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid139/p4c5976a8c22234c94914d595f6d94c34/f6fa51c2.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Stop it Dave :D

I got the study plans for Good Omen.To be honest I think building is beyond me I would be looking to renovate or buy and maintain a nice Wittholz

[AngWood]

Here's Devlin's Wompus Cat:

http://www.devlinboat.com/wompuscat2.jpg

I actually find the proportions all wrong on this design. Odd that such a savvy designer would come out with such a dud. Maybe because he's in the Pacific NW, and the classic catboats come from New England.

[ 09-18-2004, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: AngWood ]

[JimD]

I know what you mean about Devlin's Wompus. Its not a bad looking boat but somehow it has trouble looking like a cat boat. Needs a little tumblehome somewhere, maybe. But Devlin's site has three nice pics of one built and in the water. Still not a bad looker for plywood.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
Stop it Dave :D

I got the study plans for Good Omen.To be honest I think building is beyond me I would be looking to renovate or buy and maintain a nice WittholzJoe, Good Omen is sheet plywood. Were you thinking of a chined boat? Anybody can build a chined plywood boat.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

A long, long time ago, as a matter of fact the REASON I found the WBF was I was going to build a Stevenson project Pocket Cruiser.

http://www.stevproj.com/HKlein2.jpeg

I still think it is a nicer cat boat look than the Devlin but I have grown to appreciate the cat in far greater detail and I think I would want a REAL catboat

[Donn]

Here's a catboat sitting behind Holzbt's backyard:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/donnwest/RogersBoatyard62603015.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

YUCK Donn. F#$%Glass with a Aluminum spars painted wood color ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww :( redface.gif ;)

[ 09-18-2004, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[JimD]

Perhaps for a winter hobby I will redraw the Wittholz Live Aboard traditional round bilge version as a multi-chine, say 5 or 6 planks per side. That ought to come very close to the designed shape.

[AngWood]

I think Wittholz proved that a hard-chined catboat can look good. The 15 and 17 footers sold (plans) by WB have always tempted me.

PS Someone please buy the gorgeous 21' Fenwick Williams catboat listed for sail in the WB classified ads.

[JimD]

PS Someone please buy the gorgeous 21' Fenwick Williams catboat listed for sail in the WB classified ads. Isn't that the same one that was featured in the 'Launchings' section only a couple yrs ago?

[AngWood]

No, though I think that one was listed for sale in an earlier issue. This one was built in the '80s.

Please buy it. Okay, I'll buy it. No, I can't. Someone?

[Dave Fleming]

'nuther by Mendlowitz. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid139/p1b5d7c3439bb9daf074fed67121a225f/f6f75ab7.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Dave isn't that so sweat looking just ghosting along like that. Big gaff rig gunk holing in the shallows. There is a lot to be said about that design one big main, beamy comfortable with a CB for shoal waters. You can do a lot with a nice size Catboat.

Personally I think for me and my family it is the ideal boat. I will never do a circumnavigation. But the idea of taking her down to the upper bay in NYC and around the inlets. Out to the LI sound longest trips being Shelter Island or the Cape. Possibly down to the Chesapeake that's about all I need in life.

[JimD]

Originally posted by AngWood:
I think Wittholz proved that a hard-chined catboat can look good...And not only look good but his boats are almost perfect V bottoms so the plywood versions are almost identical below the water line to the traditional lines and therefore ought to sail almost as well.

[Steven R]

Saw this while kayaking in Orleans, MA last weekend

http://www.get-outside.com/pants04/pants04_12.jpg

[JimD]

Steven, I hope you go kayaking more often, and don't forget your camera. I wonder what the design is. Not Wittholz, maybe Williams. Did Lyle Hess design any bigger ones?

[Steven R]

Joe,

I can't say for sure, but if I had to guess, I would say Williams as well.

Here's another one from the same day. The Catboats were out in full force on the Cape, last weekend. No where near your size requirements smile.gif , but.... a pretty site none the less.

http://www.get-outside.com/pants04/pants04_10.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

yawl-rigged keel cat :rolleyes: :mad:

[Chadd Hamilton]

just wanna post a pic of my favorite catboat, the Great South Bay Catboat. I think offsets/plans are available from Mystic.

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/9/0/8/6/6/908664_4.jpg

sailplan:
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/9/0/8/6/6/908664_3.jpg

[JimD]

For the purists, I suspect she would sail OK without the mizzen - it's really only a balancing sail, surely? Hmm, good question. That's a fair sized mizzen and without it the sailplan CE would be well forward. On most single mast cats the boom extends well aft of the transom.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Chadd Hamilton:
just wanna post a pic of my favorite catboat, the Great South Bay Catboat. I think offsets/plans are available from Mystic.

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/9/0/8/6/6/908664_4.jpg

sailplan:
http://newimages.yachtworld.com/9/0/8/6/6/908664_3.jpgFun to sail for the adventurous but tricky, and a wet ride. I wonder how many of them sunk. I bet there'd be a fair bit of work with the bailing can at the end of the day.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

JimD I bet that coaming would hurt ya butt after a bit, ya think?
Pretty boat but very wet, A little over canvassed ??
Look at the tiller position :eek:

[ 09-22-2004, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[JimD]

Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
JimD I bet that coaming would hurt ya butt after a bit, ya think?
Pretty boat but very wet, A little over canvassed ??
Look at the tiller position :eek: Doesn't look to comfortable to me, Joe. Think I'll stick to the concept of a self bailing cockpit with seat cusions :D . I think the WB article on the Gilbert boats a few issues back said a lot of them were converted to sloop rigs to make them more managable. Apparently even a lot of the working cats had one rig for summer and another for winter.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

No worries TonyH this aint the bilge. It is somewhat common knowledge that I don't fancy yawl-riggs and that I LOVE catboats. So combining both what I love and hate was the reason for my Graemlins. But please do not take it personal, it was more of a joke.

[JimD]

So does this sound like a stupid idea for modifying the plywood LiveAboard? Since the design is very nearly a wide, shallow v bottom with a single chine and single wide, flat side panel I would build the bottom per stock design but multi chine from the bilge chine up, that is to say topsides will have 3 plywood planks, perhaps batten seam construction, instead of just one flat panel. This sounds like a relatively easy modification and would return most of the shape to the topsides, including allowing for that spiffy tumblehome look, especially at the transom. What do ye catboat afficionados think?

[Buddy]

I'm a catboat lover too.( Read all the posts first Dave.)
With you on the curvy topsides being part of what makes a catboat a looker, and consequently a lot of the flat sided panel boats that look great in plans are a disappointment when you see them in the flesh or in photos. May sail just great, but does she keep you looking back at her at the end of the day?

You might look at some of Bolgers work. His little Bobcat is a "five" panel boat so a flat/ not v bottom at that, but it gives you an idea what a six or as you say an 8 panel boat might yield. Make up a cardboard model and experiment. His Chewbacco is a multipanel boat and you could shorten the stations on your quicky model and get a real feel of the curviness.

I'm curious about the handling , actually handling such a big main and boom gybing on a 25 foot cat.
There are times when my 15 foot Marsh Cat with a 14 foot boom tests my skill. There are times I "chicken" gybe. I consider myself, after 44 years since I started sailing, a pretty good sailor.

The first catboat I "guested" aboard was a Marshall 22. Loved it, but racing in a fleet( and the only catboat) pushing it, the helm and gybing could be a bear. I understand the old fishing cats being used as tractors of the sea often had worm and sector sterring gear, not a tiller or usual quadrant wheel steering. The rudder was locked where you set it offering no feedback to the helmsman, but no strain either. I suppose if you were dragging nets that would steady the whole proposition, but...

Point is, with that huge boom way out, seems weather helm could be more than you could man, but maybe the loads don't scale up as I imagine. Has anybody here hands on experience to offer?

Maybe for the very same hull, in that 25' size, the sloop or a cat ketch rig really makes a more manageable family boat.

My thoughts.

[Buddy]

Also Jim, Tom Kamila redrew the Wittholtz 15 for completely "round" strip plank construction. Search on the site for the awesome results. Goes to show you how an amateur can work over plans for way different construction methods sticking to the "content" of a professional design and get a great boat, uniquely his, and just what he wants.

[JimD]

I've been playing with the study plans for a week or two now and have mostly answered the questions about added chines. Starting with the single hard chine version even adding one extra chine about mid way topsides makes a world of difference in appearance and much more closely resembles the round bilge hull so might even improve sailing characteristics as well. Nice thing about the study plans is that it includes the sections for both the round and hard chine. So it was an easy thing to superimpose one set of lines over the other and come to compromise. I've started building a 29" model of the round bilge and will also build the modified double chine I've drawn up. A good way to be a big kid for a winter project.

[JimD]

Buddy, yes, the catboats apparently have some notoriously bad handling characteristics when the wind comes up and handling one single 600 sq ft sail doesn't sound easy. If I do one day build her it would be the sloop rig version.

[steadybrook]

I have a 21'Williams Designed Catboat.Built by J.Little in 1966.It would be quite a bit to handle without the wheel steering. Alot of forces on the large rudder.When the wind blows around 20Knots it is time to reef or your arms will get sore.She flies down wind.It also needs lots of ballast to make her sail good.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Hmmm not a true Catboat but close I like the design
Especially below the water line ;)
http://sailquest.com/market/models/b-non30.gif

Nonsuch 30
Specifications:
L.O.A.: 30' 4" (9.25 m)
L.W.L.: 28' 9" (8.76 m)
Beam: 11' 10" (3.38 m)
Draft: 5' 0" (1.51 m)

Displ: 11,500 lbs. (5216 kg.)
Ballast: 4500 lbs. (2041 kg.)

Motor: diesel
Headroom: standing
Berths: 4 to 6

http://sailquest.com/market/models/non30.htm

[ 10-06-2004, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[JimD]

The Nonsuch does look like a very practical refinement of the tradional Cape Cod fishing boat, especially the balanced spade rudder (I presume its balanced). But it does give up a lot of the salty charm of the transom hung barn door. Guess there'll always be trade offs. I have almost got a 29 inch model hull of Live Aboard completed and ready for fitting out. A very wide, shallow hull. Compared to a 22" model of the wineglass hull of Glen-L's Amigo the hull shapes are night and day.

[BillyBudd]

Might I add that Phil Bolger's "Chebacco" (see WB mag # 107) is a cat-yawl rig with centerboard, is light and readily trailered, has a cuddy, a nice cockpit with coaming, can be built of sheet ply for true economics in 'I got a boat' and, well, looks great though not as perfectly honed (why would Bolger do that?) as, say, a Fenwick Williams or a Wittholtz. The yawl rig with the balancing mizzens'l means that the mains'l boom isn't beyond reach, aft of the boat, or digging into a wave when out over the side.

[JimD]

I can see why Chebacco is a popular design but too small and especially too light weight for what I'm looking for. Sharp looking plywood boat, though.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
YUM JD my fav kinds of boat lets build two one for you and one for me. I will donate the shop you donate the exp. smile.gif

Dam I love catboats gonna get me one.
One day soon ;) I did smile.gif

[JimD]

Lessee some photographic evidence, Joe.

Edited to add: Oh! Tidbit! Awesome. So lessee sommore photographic evidence :cool:

[ 01-31-2006, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[ddeaton]

Here is my Wittholz so far. 17' http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/p1946a75d5477ca50d15578efa67b69a1/f14094e6.jpg

[Alan Peck]

Looks terrific. How about some more pictures!

[Dave Gray]

Looks terrific. How about some more pictures! I second the motion. Inside, outside, is it a ballast keel or centerboarder, inboard or outboard motor.

[ddeaton]

I am out of town working now. When I get back, I will send shots of inside and out. Centerboard with aux outboard. As soon as I turn my Penobscot she is going in the barn to work on the topsides.

[ddeaton]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/p724191978a0393db8d358b7d10a73c32/f140966e.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p680ef38ee78702dbc07e114d91418c5a/f054e3f9.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p5aa5e7215a1a954192f4a0f39277fd16/f054e3ca.jpg
And my favorite!
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid195/p0bb7b205e850bf5c90d094fb9961c336/f1406a2c.jpg

[JimD]

ddeaton, what's that funny looking boat in the last picture with all the curves in it? :D

[ddeaton]

That is the boat that I drool over!

[JimD]

Originally posted by ddeaton:
That is the boat that I drool over!Any idea what the design is?

[ddeaton]

I think it is an original Crosby, and I think it is the flagship for the Catboat Association. I will find out more about it this weekend, as I am going to my first annual Catboat Association meeting in Newport, RI

[JimD]

Looking forward to hearing about it.

[jaapk.]

I am very proud to tell you that I have won this years Broad Axe Award from the Catboat Association for building my 16' Lyle Hess designed CHARLOTTE II. I am the first non-American to receive this award, for a 'significant achievement in catboat construction'! The Broad Axe was owned by the famous catboatbuilders Charles C. Hanley and Merton E. Long (from 1886-1936)
Unfortunately I could not be at the Annual Meeting of the CBA in Newport, but as I understand pictures of my catboat were shown
at the meeting.

[Garrett Lowell]

Congratulations, jaapk.! What does this award entail, and do you have any pics you can post for us? Thanks.

[jaapk.]

thanks Garret,
the Broad Axe Award is a huge old boatbuilders broad axe mounted on a board, with nameplates of all the people, who have won it (from 1977 until now). Unfortunately the thing is a bit awkward to send to Holland, so they promised to send me a keeper trophy. Next time I will be in the USA I'll try to find out where the Broad Axe is, so I can make a picture of it. Pictures of CHARLOTTE II you can find on my website: www.kraayenhof.nl/catboat/. (http://www.kraayenhof.nl/catboat/.) I will very soon try to update the site, the pictures are from launching the boat in 2003.

[Garrett Lowell]

A beautiful boat (and I still love the boatshop, as well!). I tried to find a pic of The Award on the net, but no luck.

http://www.anaburen.nl/catboat/2003-09-21jaapjaap2.jpg

[Garrett Lowell]

http://www.anaburen.nl/catboat/022.jpg

[Alan Peck]

Garret: Is that a hinged tabernacle or something similar just above the deck. Any information or perhaps closeup photos of the arrangement?

[jaapk.]

Jim D., Cimba is a 25' catboat, designed by Fenwick Williams, build in 1965 by Baum's Boatyard in Kennebunkport, Maine. Mahogany on oak. 500 square feet of sail! She was owned for a long time by Catboat Association officers Frank and Lynda Cassidy. Source: the Catboat Book, published by the Catboat Association.

[jaapk.]

Jim D., Cimba is a 25' catboat, designed by Fenwick Williams, build in 1965 by Baum's Boatyard in Kennebunkport, Maine. Mahogany on oak. 500 square feet of sail! She was owned for a long time by Catboat Association officers Frank and Lynda Cassidy. Source: the Catboat Book, published by the Catboat Association.