Launch plans

[Graham Knight]

I'm looking for suitable plans for a future project I have in mind. I want to build a Victorian/Edwardian style river launch, the kind with a glazed saloon aft and open deck at the front, and I need a suitable hull design to base it on.
It can't be more than 22' long or 6' 10" beam, this is dictated by the building room I have available and also the mooring where it'll be kept in the summer.
It must be strip planked, carvel or similar, no plywood or GRP. The best candidate I've found so far is Selway Fisher's 21' Ijssel launch, but I prefer the fantail stern of their Edwardian series.
Their 21' Edwardian would be perfect, except I want a vertical rather than schooner stem, and at 5' 10" the beam is just a bit too narrow!
I see their Edwardian 26 is available with a vertical stem and it looks great, it has a broader beam too, it's almost want I want but too long!
I know they can re-draw their designs to an extent to suit individual customer's requirements, but surely somewhere there must be a design that has all the features I want without having to modify the plans?
I know I'm probably being really difficult, but does anyone know of a design incorporating all these features?

[RonW]

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400-021

Or is this 2inches too wide?

[Graham Knight]

Width is fine, but it doesn't have a fantail, without which it's almost the same as SF's Ijssel.
Have a look at their Edwardian 26 web page (http://www.selway-fisher.com/Steam2030.htm) to see the style I'm looking for, but 4'-5' shorter.

[Wiley Baggins]

"Easy" answer No. 1 is one of Paul Gartside's launches (http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsteam.php#steam22) and "easy" answer No. 2 is to graft a fantail onto the Selway Fisher 21' Ijssel launch you referenced. The Gartside option is turnkey simple and the modification of the Selway Fisher design doesn't look too daunting either. One last thought, perhaps you can just reduce the spacing on the molds for the Edwardian 26 (probably with the approval and assistance of the designer if they are given the opportunity to do the tweaking for a reasonable fee).

[RonW]

You are getting awfully picky Graham.

But I really don't blame you for the work and exspense that you will end up having in it.
So you might as well get what you want.
I see you want the drake tail transom, rather then a wine glass transom.

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400-0 92 (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400-092)

Here is the other wooden boat plan, by bolger but it is onlt 6 ft. wide and a little long, you could probably squeeze the frames a little to shorten it, but...

And I am sure you know about glen=l's harbor master.
Since I took the interest in electric, I have looked hard for these boat plans, and to be honest, selway fisher has the most plans out there.
I would suggest you contact them, since you are right there, and see what they would say about simply changing the transom on the ljessel.
It might be simpler and cheaper then you think, and then you would have everything you want.

The little enclosure at the rear with a open front deck, seems to mostly be a english thing of the victorian era. Most americans want to sit up front so they can see who they are going to ram next.

I would defintely get a response from selway on changing the transom.Think that would be the best way to fly. You are goin to put it electric, aren't you. You are in the greatest spot in the world for electric boats.

Yep I was going to look up gartsdide after posting, and Wiley beat me to it. Looks like the 21 is too slim and the 23 is a little long and too wide. That goes back to adding the draketail to selway's 21 ft. ljessel....

[ 07-31-2005, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: RonW ]

[Graham Knight]

Yes I am being picky Ron! But as you say I may as well have what I want if I'm going to the trouble of building it.
Yes I've looked at the Harbormaster, but it doesn't have the fantail and the broad beam is a problem.
I'm beginning to think that changing the Ijssel's stern would be the simplest solution, I can probably do that myself easily enough, it's really only a cosmetic change.
SF seem to be able to incorporate changes in their designs quite easily, they all appear to be CAD drawn so it's quite simple to stretch or shorten one a little, or alter a few small details here and there. I'll email Paul Fisher and see what he thinks.
I'd love to build the boat for electric power, and you're right that this is a great place to have an electric boat with good charging facilities all along the river, and a very long history of electric boats on the Thames too.
But I've looked into it and the initial costs just seem too high. We were going to convert my father-in-law's boat to electric, but gave up when we realised it would cost several times what the boat's worth to do it! It's something I'd still consider if I could find a way to get the cost down.

[rbgarr]

Paul Gartside is originally from England and would probably love to do such a design, since he says the type of project you envision is most motivating for him.

[RonW]

Graham. on the cost of setting that launch up for electric. At least on this side of the pond, you could set up a simple straight forward 4 horse 48 volt system for about $2,500 to $3,000.
Of course a super system for about 5 or $6,000.

I checked with westerburke on their 12 horse diesel with gear box for a launch, and they only wanted $4,500.. Yea that was a small surprise, I just wanted the small one.They also told me it had a lot of vibration to it.

You need to send this guy (Bob) a e-mail and get his catalog (by e-mail), I think we still can ship things to england. He has great prices and know his e.v.'s
You will learn a lot from the catalog, I know I have.

http://www.ev-america.com

If you are going to build that boat, you need to bite the bullet and learn how to install a electric system. To hell with a smelly, noisy, vibrating diesel sitting in the middle of the floor. Besides after a few years of running, you may save enough to actually pay for the system.
Isn't diesel fuel over there about $4 a gallon?

[paladin]

Check Jay Benford...he has two lovely designs...

[Graham Knight]

Isn't diesel fuel over there about $4 a gallon? Actually diesel fuel for road vehicles is quite a bit more than that. Don't forget that our Gallons are bigger than the little ones you use in the US though!
At the moment diesel engined boats can use "Red Diesel", which is a tax free fuel intended for farmers, commercial fishermen etc... For some reason there's a loophole which allows it to be used for leisure boats too, but it looks like that loophole may be closed in a couple of years, and diesel boat owners will have to pay a lot more for their fuel in future.
I'm going to look into the cost of electrics again, I must admit that would be my preference. The last time I investigated this the motor of choice was the Lynch Motor, a cheap version of which was available from the US where they were built under licence by Briggs & Stratton for golf carts etc... But it seems they no longer make a suitable one and the only version available now is much more expensive. Still, as you say the savings over time should eventually make up the difference.
There's a scheme on the Norfolk Broads where you can get a grant for electric boats, unfortunately this isn't available on the River Thames, they do offer a discount on the licence fee but it's not enough to offset the initial cost.
It seems that a launch of the type I'm intending to build needs a much less powerful motor than my father-in-law's boat would have, maybe that will bring the cost down to a more affordable figure.

[G. Schollmeier]

The E-tek motor, the one used on Nomad III is available here at one third the cost of the LEM. http://www.greenspeed.us/electric_scooter_e-tek_motor.htm
In this thread at boatdesign.net, http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7713&page=1&pp=15
is an alternative way of using this motor on a boat.

[Keith Wilson]

Here's a possibility. Phil Bolger, of all people, has designed an absolutely gorgeous fantail launch. The plans don't do it justice; the thing is even better in three dimensions;, truly spectacular. Most of Bolger's designs aren't boxes, actually; he has a very very good eye for a beautiful hull. Only problem is that it's just a wee bit too long: 23' x 6' x 22" draft. Plans are available from the WB store, (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=400-092)or from Bolger himself.

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400092.JPG

There's an open version for sale here. (http://www.boatsofcharacter.com/products.html)

[ 08-02-2005, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[Graham Knight]

The E-tek motor Ah yes the E-tek, that's the name I was trying to remember. It is a licence built Lynch motor isn't it?
When I was looking for a motor this time last year I was told that the E-tek was no longer produced, or at least not in a form suitable for the boat I wanted to put it in.
Those prices look good, I can see I'll have to do some homework, maybe speak to the Electric Boat Association again and see what they have to say.

[Graham Knight]

Well I contacted Briggs and Stratton UK and asked about E-Tek availability, and got the following reply...

As far as we are aware the ETek motor is no longer available from Briggs & Stratton.

If you source via the USA , we regret we are unable to offer any warranty or parts assistance. You would need to contact your original supplier.

Regards

IRENE RUSSELL
Technical Support & Training
Briggs & Stratton UK Ltd.
This was confirmed by the main UK Briggs and Stratton distributor too.

I also emailed the electric scooter place that was suggested in an earlier post but I'm still waiting for a reply. I'm quite happy to import one, especially if the prices really are that good, all the alternatives including the LEM-200 Lynch motor are much more expensive.

[Tom Robb]

Do golfers in the UK use electric carts? If so look into getting a motor from a wrecked one or from whomever fixes them. DC motors can't be all that hard to find.

[Graham Knight]

I'm sure I could get a much cheaper motor, in fact I know I can because I've looked at a few, but their performance leaves a lot to be desired.
From what I've seen most of the golf cart motors, with the exception of the Lynch/E-Tek, don't seem to be very efficient.
Yes I could just use more batteries to make up for that, but I figure I might as well spend the money on a better motor rather than batteries.

[RonW]

Graham, check out this motor, it is even made on your side of the pond.

http://www.enigmaindustries.com/PMG_132/PMG_132.htm

[Graham Knight]

Thanx for that Ron, this is getting VERY interesting!
The Perm Motor looks like another license built Lynch, I've emailed the manufacturer in Germany to see if they have a UK distributor.
I notice there's even an E-Tek for sale on eBay at the moment, shipping to the UK is quite reasonable, if only I could justify buying one now.
It seems like I shouldn't have too much trouble finding something suitable when I'm ready for it though, and it looks like it won't break the bank when the time comes either.
I'll have no hesitation about going ahead and building this boat, once I have one or two other projects out of the way first. I'm just waiting for a reply from Selway Fisher to see if they can do their 21' Edwardian with a plumb stem, if they can then I think that's my boat. I've decided I can live with the slightly narrow 5' 10" beam, I just need to be creative with the bunking arrangement as I need to get four of them in there somewhere, two people may be sleeping alfresco!

[RonW]

Hold it Graham, don't write the check yet.
You where decided on the ljessup with the 6ft 10in. beam now you are waffling around to the one with the 5-10 beam. I just juggled this deal over a boat I am turning into a electric. The 6-10 beam gives you the ability to put bench seats down each side that are wide enough to sleep on, not so with the smaller 5-10 beam, it is really cramped and hurts layout a whole bunch. I think you would be a whole lot happier with the wider beam, and hey 6-10 ain't no big wide beam boat, that is for sure.

[Graham Knight]

You where decided on the ljessup with the 6ft 10in. beam now you are waffling around to the one with the 5-10 beam 6' 10" is the maximum beam I can go to, dictated by the marina berth I intend to use, if it's over that size, or more than 22' long, I have to go to a full-price berth at nearly twice the price.
As far as the sleeping berths are concerned, my plan is to have a bench seat down each side which folds out to make a double berth the full width of the saloon. Additional cushions for the mattresses can be stored in the seat bases.
My original idea was to have the sleeping berths running sideways across the saloon, but thinking about it now that would only just be possible within the maximum 6' 10" beam, there would be very little to spare considering I'm 6' 2".
I'm going to order the study plan for the Edwardian 21, it's only a few quid so if it turns out to be unsuitable I won't have lost much. I'm going to make a scale model first to try out different arrangements, so at worst I'll end up with a nice model for my money!

[Graham Knight]

Well I got a reply from the German manufacturer of the Perm Motor. The price is £600 (approx US$1066) plus packing and shipping which they didn't quote, I suspect that will make it around £100 cheaper than the Lynch LEM-200 in total. Better but still nowhere near as cheap as the E-Tek if I can get one, and about what I'd pay for the Lynch if I were to buy one as a complete motor/controller/charger kit.
I think the best thing to do is build the boat then shop around for the best motor deal when I'm ready for it, or if a real bargain comes along in the meantime I may just grab it. But who knows, in the 2 or 3 years it's likely to take to build the boat something better may come along anyway, the technology is advancing all the time and demand for electric vehicles is increasing, so new and cheaper developments are quite likely.