Lost at sea?

[null]

To establish my absolute ignorance of sailing etc., I've never been out of sight of land, never been under sail and the biggest wave I've seen is the wake of a bass boat. If my boat goes under, I'll dog paddle to shore and walk to the truck, out a couple hundred bucks worth of equipment and my pride--you've no idea how terrifying being 2000mi from shore sounds to me.

Leaving aside my opinions on the wisdom of Abby Sunderland's voyage, it's got me to wondering a couple things:

1. The boat rolls and the mast comes loose--it's still connected to boat with the various lines and would now be dragging the boat sideways into the waves and the boat would heel to that side, right? So to salvage the boat, one would have to go out on the deck, which for all intents and purposes is vertical now, and cut these lines loose so the mast and sail no longer drag?

2. Now what? Assuming no motor (couldn't carry much fuel for one anyway I'd imagine), the boat is pretty big to row so you drift? I'm guessing that even upright, drifting aimlessly in big waves is no fun.

3. In the absence of electronic signaling and the ability to simply wait for rescue, is there some way to either rig a small sheet or kite to make some headway or are you just screwed? Even in this modern age, finding a boat bobbing aimlessly on the ocean seems difficult at best without some sort of beacon.

4. Seems to me that being screwed with many days to ponder the situation would make it hard to maintain sanity, or is it just part of the adventure?

Thanks,

Chris

[JimD]

Any properly equipped offshore boat will have a variety of sails, far more than can be up at any given time, such as small, strong storm sails or different sized head sails and genoas that will be stowed in a locker somewhere on the vessel and will likely not all be lost during the dismasting. A resourceful crew will find a way to rig them to a makeshift mast such as a whisker or spinnaker pole and limp along. Its been done many times, especially in the days before epirbs and sat phones.

[wizbang 13]

null, your wisdom vastly exceeds your experience.

[willmarsh3]

I think one important thing is that the keel has no possibility of falling off. Racing boats aren't appropriate because they are engineered to go fast which means saving weight everywhere possible even at the expense of the keel and hull joint. I know someone in my sailing club whose keel fell off in the lake. The boat immediately turned turtle. Rescue was the only option at that point.

[Ian McColgin]

I've managed to loose seven masts, one about 100 miles off and the rest close to comfort, usually in situations of high comedy or racing, once simply stupid inattention to maintenance. Point is, it's something I've dealt with in conditions considerably more felicitious than Ms Sunderland's facing and something that's always present on my mind.

Without her mast, the boat gets whippy in the extreme. If the rigging is holding the spar close and in danger of holing the boat, you really have to cut it free - a hazardous job even if you've a way of rigging a harness and even if you've a very powerful cable cutter - ideally gunpowder fired or hydraulic. Forget sawing. If there's any chance the things are just dragging off to weather and not hitting you, far safer to await nicer weather. That also gives you more to choose from in finding parts to make your jury rig.

I forget her name, that fabulous French woman round the world racer. In the race where the boats had all those videocams about, it caught her on deck weeping after the mast went by the board. Then she pulled herself together and made a rig to limp along on. It all took tremendous strength and enginuity. Anyone who has wrestled long heavy objects on an unstabile surface will get that.

In Ms Sunderland's case, a vessel is able to respond in a reasonable time. It's prudent for her to do not much more than clean up and ponder whether tow or any salvage is even possible. Perhaps in the next day she'll hit on a way to make a rig that at least lets her get Wild Eyes to port. Perhaps the fishing crew will help. Perhaps not. We don't even know what's at hand and really can't second guess at this point.

All of which is to say, if tomorrow or the next day she just steps on to the fishing boat with little more than ship's papers, I'd still not call her a wimp or loser or quitter.

*PS - There's quite a crop of great women voyagers. I had in mind here Isabelle Autissier.

[TimH]

I cant believe no pictures have been released from the plane.

[Venchka]

In addition to a jury rig, the prudent offshore skipper will have the means to provide self-propulsion.

http://councill.home.mindspring.com/sbjournal/sculling/scull1.html

A large bolt cutter for clearing away the rigging also helps.

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

[Stu Fyfe]

Get a copy of "Total Loss". Outstanding account of 40 yachts and their demise. At the end of each chapter it lists the lessons learned and what they would have done differently.

[wizbang 13]

It is patently ridiculous that she could scull the boat on the high seas

[null]

Thanks for the education. It sounds like preparation and resisting panic, as in all life/death situations is still the key--but man you'd have to want it. If a highly experienced sailor is "weeping...when her mast goes by the board" I feel somewhat justified in my trepidation. As facinated as I am by all of this, I really do need to read that book.

Perhaps when I did dangerous or extreme things in my youth, I subconsciously wanted someone to find the body...

Thanks,

Chris

[ssor]

Women weep men swear. Same response, different personalities

[Venchka]

It is patently ridiculous that she could scull the boat on the high seas

No specific situation was intended. Naturally, there are limits to sculling relative to boat size, weather, sea state, etc. However, there are folks who carry a long sweep or yuhloh and use them where & when appropriate.

Loosen up. ;)

Other good reads: John Guzzwell's account of his voyage aboard Trekka, Slocum and Spray of course, Webb Chiles and his adventures with a Drascombe Lugger and larger boats. The list is long.

[paladin]

You might really be surprised at how large a boat you can scull.....

[bott]

You might really be surprised at how large a boat you can scull.....

Indeed! :cool:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTSg9iIqkl4&

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/2625650314_21a7961832.jpg

[willmarsh3]

Larry and Lin Pardey regularly sculled their first boat Seraphym which IIRC displaces about 10,000 lbs. Wild Eyes displaces about 7400 lbs. So sculling it would probably not be any problem. OTOH if you had mountainous seas and/or a stiff current set against your course then that would be a problem.

[waynec]

I didn't intend to hijack this discussion with Abby news, however I think this latest release from her web page is relevant here as well.



ABBY IS FINE!
We have just heard from the Australian Search and Rescue. The plane arrived on the scene moments ago. Wild Eyes is upright but her rigging is down. The weather conditions are abating. Radio communication was made and Abby reports that she is fine!
http://abbysunderland.com


see the People & Places discussion for more on Abby, now back to Lost at Sea

.

[Dan McCosh]

Might also mention that if the rigging is cleared, the hull should respond to trailing warps, drogues, etc, as a way of keeping at a reasonable angle to the wind. Even rigless, the hull windage would generate enough drag to help stablize the situation.

[Venchka]

I take this a general discussion of seamanship under adverse conditions.
Thanks Dan. I was about to mention sea anchors, drogues, streaming warps, etc.
The large sweep in the photo above would also make the beginnings of a jury rigged mast. Maybe.

[Michael D. Storey]

Women weep men swear. Same response, different personalities

Speak for yourself.

[Dan Newton]

Larry and Lin Pardey regularly sculled their first boat Seraphym which IIRC displaces about 10,000 lbs. Wild Eyes displaces about 7400 lbs. So sculling it would probably not be any problem. OTOH if you had mountainous seas and/or a stiff current set against your course then that would be a problem.

7400 lb displacement for a 40 foot yacht? Do I have this right?
C.A. Marchaj might have something to say about this.

[purri]

Marchaj certainly would.

[willmarsh3]

7400 lb displacement for a 40 foot yacht? Do I have this right?
C.A. Marchaj might have something to say about this.

It's on her website. I agree it's rather light. I think with all the extra equipment aboard it may be a little bit more.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abby_Sunderland?wasRedirected=true

[richincident]

The use of an Open 40 is the one thing that makes me more than a little dubious about this effort--also the feedback from experienced sailors that putting THAT BOAT in THAT ocean at THAT time of year was foolhardy.

Great boat, but not your conservative blue water sailing boat--not at all. I don't mind the effort, but when you are sailing a high performance racer single handed into some of the world's most difficult weather someone has been neglectful.

[Dan Newton]

So were they after a speed record as well as being the youngest female to do a non-stop circumnavigation? Wouldn't an Open 40 be considered a race boat?
If you read the equipment list, it seems like there were a lot of complicated systems onboard. I hesitate to say this in view of the circumstances, but my impression is that there was a lot of technology used where tried-and-true traditional solutions could have done the job.
To an extent, this is a question of preference. As Ted Brewer said when asked if a particular boat was capable of crossing oceans..."well, maybe, but not with me aboard."

[Gerarddm]

Null, never read Heavy Weather Sailing by K. Adlard Coles. You'd need to change your underwear. Trust me.

[Tristan]

I am reminded of the Smeeton's pitch-poling their yacht in the Southern Ocean and Tillman's Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter going missing in the South Atlantic. In real weather with a real sea running I can't imagine anyone doing much more than hanging on, but somehow the blue water sailor types do manage to make repairs and jury rig. I can get scared enough in a shallow bay. I mostly enjoy the ocean looking out from the shore. Situations can go from exhilarating to terrifying in a half second out in the ocean, especially the Southern Ocean.

[headonz]

Get a copy of "Total Loss". Outstanding account of 40 yachts and their demise. At the end of each chapter it lists the lessons learned and what they would have done differently.


Is this a title of a book ?? I have googled it but nothing that looks like the one.Who is the author ?

[Hwyl]

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Loss-Collection-First-Hand-Accounts/dp/1574091468/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276385706&sr=8-1

The Pardeys were in the business of selling books, most of their advice is crap.

Sculling might get you home 5 miles, Abby was 550 miles from Kergulen say she could scull 10 hours a day at 2.5 knots which would be epic, that's 20 odd days away.

The open 40 actually saved her by being so buoyant, the huge mistake was the timing.

[seanz]

I am reminded of the Smeeton's pitch-poling their yacht in the Southern Ocean and Tillman's Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter going missing in the South Atlantic. In real weather with a real sea running I can't imagine anyone doing much more than hanging on, but somehow the blue water sailor types do manage to make repairs and jury rig. I can get scared enough in a shallow bay. I mostly enjoy the ocean looking out from the shore. Situations can go from exhilarating to terrifying in a half second out in the ocean, especially the Southern Ocean.

I sure it was a converted tug-boat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Tilman). :)

[Tristan]

I sure it was a converted tug-boat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Tilman). :)

As far as I know all the boats he voyaged in were Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters. Whoa, I just looked it up and you are RIGHT! No wonder he was lost! Never would have happened in a Cutter! Well, maybe not.

[Tristan]

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Loss-Collection-First-Hand-Accounts/dp/1574091468/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276385706&sr=8-1

The Pardeys were in the business of selling books, most of their advice is crap.

Sculling might get you home 5 miles, Abby was 550 miles from Kergulen say she could scull 10 hours a day at 2.5 knots which would be epic, that's 20 odd days away.

The open 40 actually saved her by being so buoyant, the huge mistake was the timing.

I can't imagine doing much with sculling in much more than flat calm. In a seaway you might as well hop over and tow your boat by swimming.

[null]

Null, never read Heavy Weather Sailing by K. Adlard Coles. You'd need to change your underwear. Trust me.


Thanks for the tip. Sounds like I need more adventure in my life. I think I'll jump in the boat and unleash all 4.5 screaming horses and feel that 7mph wind in my hair...the cattails will look like a picket fence. Then again, they're calling for some rain tomorrow...

Chris
Cheating death, one farm pond at a time...

[Tristan]

Sometimes the overboard gear will act as a sea anchor but there is always the danger of the dragging mast or other spars poking a hole in the hull. How many carry heavy duty cable cutters capable of chopping away the rigging quickly?

[seanz]

As far as I know all the boats he voyaged in were Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters. Whoa, I just looked it up and you are RIGHT! No wonder he was lost! Never would have happened in a Cutter! Well, maybe not.

His cutters were all fine in deep water.
;)

[Tristan]

His cutters were all fine in deep water.
;)

Actually he did lose a cutter too didn't he? I can't remember, maybe he just almost lost it. He was a sadistic old fart, hell on his often lubberly crew for sure. A real stiff upper lip, damn the torpedos, "Lets go for a jolly swim in this just above freezing water lads," Englishman!

[ssor]

Sometimes the overboard gear will act as a sea anchor but there is always the danger of the dragging mast or other spars poking a hole in the hull. How many carry heavy duty cable cutters capable of chopping away the rigging quickly?

I have a Felco brand cable cutter rated for 3/8 cable. But I need to add four foot pipes to the handles to cut 1/4 inch 300 series SS 1x19 cable.

[willmarsh3]

The Pardeys were in the business of selling books, most of their advice is crap.



Any examples? I have read some of their early works such as Cruising in Seraffyn and Seraffyn's European adventure and found the bits of advice offered seemed to make sense. I've used some in my own sailing endeavors.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Is this a title of a book ?? I have googled it but nothing that looks like the one.Who is the author ?

Jack Coote.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Actually he did lose a cutter too didn't he? I can't remember, maybe he just almost lost it. He was a sadistic old fart, hell on his often lubberly crew for sure. A real stiff upper lip, damn the torpedos, "Lets go for a jolly swim in this just above freezing water lads," Englishman!

I sailed with him, and no, he was not.

[wizbang 13]

That looks like an Ingred!

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

The Pardeys were in the business of selling books, most of their advice is crap.

Now that's a very interesting comment, Gareth. How would you see the Pardys as stacking up against the Hiscocks, who were essentially doing the same thing, but several decades earlier?

Mike

[WX]

I read an article by a bloke recently who made a Yuloh and found it to be very efficient.

[WX]

Now that's a very interesting comment, Gareth. How would you see the Pardys as stacking up against the Hiscocks, who were essentially doing the same thing, but several decades earlier?

Mike
Annie Hill's book does it for me. She was recently awarded the Blue Water medal.

[Tristan]

I sailed with him, and no, he was not.

How about masochist then;)

[Tristan]

Annie Hill's book does it for me. She was recently awarded the Blue Water medal.

Don't know Annie Hill's book, but an earlier Ann impressed me. In 1957 I believe I got to talk to Ann Davison on several occasions in Nassau. In fact, she invited us aboard her little ship, "Felicity Ann" as I recall for "warm" drinks (run and tonic). Her book, "My Ship is So Small" is a good read.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

How about masochist then;)

Not that, either. Partial to a pipe and, if ashore and near a hostelry, a pint (he also brewed his own). I'll go for "self disciplined and inclined to lead by example" - he was, after all, a subaltern in the Battle of the Somme, but he had a wicked sense of humour, too.

Tilman's comment on David Lewis's voyage in "Ice Bird" (they knew each other), made at the time, was, "That boat is too small for those latitudes".

I agree with you about Ann Davison, who probably had rather a similar personality - if I recall, she made the voyage because her husband had drowned in the wreck of their boat.

[Hwyl]

The Pardeys were in the business of selling books, most of their advice is crap.



Any examples? I have read some of their early works such as Cruising in Seraffyn and Seraffyn's European adventure and found the bits of advice offered seemed to make sense. I've used some in my own sailing endeavors.


Now that's a very interesting comment, Gareth. How would you see the Pardys as stacking up against the Hiscocks, who were essentially doing the same thing, but several decades earlier?

Mike


Hmm so I have to defend my statement, the only book I actually have of theirs, or to be more pedantic, Lin's. Is "The care and feeding of the offshore crew". I've read their other books and many magazine articles.

As far as "Care and feeding" goes it was out of date when it was written, because it completely disregards refrigeration, which would have been readily available when it was written and certainly ice was available, if refrigeration was not. I recently kept fresh food for 12 days in a makeshift ice box, 12 days is a good chunk of most passages.

As to the rest, I can only point to their taking outlier positions, and worst case scenarios. It seems to me they embraced odd opinions to give them something to write about, an example would be their decision not to fly the American ensign. I'm sure they are nice people and John B seems to think so, but I tend to think they take the well trodden middle path just like most of us, but sometimes pretend they don't just so they can sell books. The misspelling of their "t" boat name grates with me, it should be "Taliesyn" or at least Taliesin

http://www.thesailingchannel.tv/pardey/images/publicity-photos-004_469.jpg

Mike, it's been a long time since I read the Hiscocks, but I don't like running on twin jibs.

[Tristan]

Not that, either. Partial to a pipe and, if ashore and near a hostelry, a pint (he also brewed his own). I'll go for "self disciplined and inclined to lead by example" - he was, after all, a subaltern in the Battle of the Somme, but he had a wicked sense of humour, too.

Tilman's comment on David Lewis's voyage in "Ice Bird" (they knew each other), made at the time, was, "That boat is too small for those latitudes".

I agree with you about Ann Davison, who probably had rather a similar personality - if I recall, she made the voyage because her husband had drowned in the wreck of their boat.

As I recall there is a book about the voyage that cost her husband's life , "Last Voyage". In any case, they were fleeing some sort of legal problems concerning their boat and wound up losing the boat and her husband's life after a harrowing voyage down the East Coast of England. I recall photos of their boat (converted trawler?) wrecked at Portland Bill. From the Bahamas Ann went to the US and started a project to do a book about taking a boat down the Mississippi. About this time she developed breast cancer. It's been more than 50 years and I haven't thought about her for a long time. Time to go to google and see what transpired. http://www.boats.com/boat-content/2010/04/ann-davison-la-navigante-solitaria/

[paladin]

I'm glad someone has a similar opinion about the Pardey's books.....it seems everyone treats what they write as gospel but I sorta read it and thought we do things a lot differently...

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

Hmm so I have to defend my statement ...

Not to me you don't Gareth. That was a genuine question along the lines of, "an interested party wants to know..."


Mike, it's been a long time since I read the Hiscocks, but I don't like running on twin jibs.

Ah. Well, I can't say I've tried that, but I've tried quite a few other ideas of theirs and found them very workable.

That was really why I asked the question.

Mike

[BarnacleGrim]

3. In the absence of electronic signaling and the ability to simply wait for rescue, is there some way to either rig a small sheet or kite to make some headway or are you just screwed? Even in this modern age, finding a boat bobbing aimlessly on the ocean seems difficult at best without some sort of beacon.
Time is a big factor, you don't want to be waiting too long for that rescue. EPIRB, SART, Inmarsat and GPS can be the difference between life and death. The more information you can get to the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC) the faster you can get the help you need where you need it.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Actually he did lose a cutter too didn't he? I can't remember, maybe he just almost lost it. He was a sadistic old fart, hell on his often lubberly crew for sure. A real stiff upper lip, damn the torpedos, "Lets go for a jolly swim in this just above freezing water lads," Englishman!

(from another thread:)


Give me Tilman for prudent seamanship.

My views, after 5.500 miles with Tilman, as far as 80.06N and back, are in line with purri's

[Presuming Ed]

You might really be surprised at how large a boat you can scull.....

I'm reminded of this post (not by me)

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?showtopic=80494&view=findpost&p=1940153


When we were delivering Formidable from Cowes to the Med for the 1980 Sardinia Cup, we were motoring out of Camaret in the Brest estuary in the early morning flat calm and fog to catch the tide in the Raz du Sein. A big black shape looms out of the fog going the other direction - Pen Duick VI. No sails up, and nobody on deck. Then we saw Tabarly, standing alone at the stern, swinging a gigantic sweep over the transom as he sculled his engineless maxi in from the Atlantic.
All one can do at times like that is raise your hat in absolute respect.


http://www.betty-ck145.de/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=5775&g2_serialNumber=2

[Hwyl]

A sailor's sailor. Those Bretons (who are really Welsh) are something else

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

Most of the crew of the fishing boat that has picked her up are Bretons. Maybe she'll learn some seamanship.

[wizbang 13]

Taberly was the real deal and he was a real gentleman but even he could not scull a boat 400 miles in the southern ocean. sculling is married to calm

[BarnacleGrim]

William Bligh comes to mind, though. His leadership skills are subject to debate, but he was certainly resourceful.

[Venchka]

The accounts of the whaling ships Essex and Globe make for good reading.