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View Full Version : Grey Seal: Zen vs Chaos Theory.



chuckm
06-07-2010, 09:28 PM
Many of you know me thru my simplistic question's on how to build a .... The thruth is I am just your average wood butcher with dreams of building a Grey Seal. Afterall... Oughtred himself states that a pure novice with determination and a stack of wood could complete his project. WHAT A LINE!! 1/4 B.S. 1/4 Lies. 1/2 purity. But with 1/2 purity of soul I proceed on.

Their are very few true boat builder's on the WBF. That's a fact. Most of you are in the wanna be set or in the second set of 1/4 B.S. That's Ok, many times your intuition is correct, but I digress. The set I'm reaching out to is what most of you guy's are: Engineer's or students of design and classic building. The wooden boat is a natural and artistic avenue to pursue. I'm jealous, you know how to read plans and see the applied logic of the build. I do not. So I struggle on. It's hard for me to read and understand the plans before me. In fact... I'm lost....

I am at a fundamental cross road. It's like I am at a point where I am building on how I believe the boat should mature; or develope into it's complete form. I'm scared and lost and excited all at the same time. So.. If my build is http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0d826b3127ccefa1a85f70da600000040O08QcMnDZwzcA9 vPhA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/not quite to design, per Oughtred, well... Bless me Father for I have sinned. But I build on.

chuckm
06-07-2010, 09:31 PM
Begining bulhead.http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0d826b3127ccefa1a49f68cf100000040O08QcMnDZwzcA9 vPhA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Yeadon
06-07-2010, 09:34 PM
You're obviously ahead of your own time, yet all looks well.

chuckm
06-07-2010, 09:35 PM
Fore deck:http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0d826b3127ccefa1af1e68cbd00000040O08QcMnDZwzcA9 vPhA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

chuckm
06-07-2010, 09:52 PM
Like my Knees?http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0d826b3127ccefa1bcedbec4b00000030O08QcMnDZwzcA9 vPhA/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

WX
06-07-2010, 10:00 PM
Looks good to me, your problem is?

Dave Gray
06-07-2010, 10:00 PM
I have every confidence you can finish this boat with full and perfect pride, even if you date your photos the wrong way.

WX
06-07-2010, 10:05 PM
I have every confidence you can finish this boat with full and perfect pride, even if you date your photos the wrong way.
That how we do it, day, month and year...it's logical.;)

chuckm
06-07-2010, 10:09 PM
No real problem, just glad I have regained my zest to proceed. It's hard to explain; I was lost, and now I'm found; It's fun to find the next step, and begin to see the totality of the project.;)

WX
06-07-2010, 10:12 PM
I started my yacht with a piece of timber in one hand and a book in the other. If you aren't outside your comfort zone you're not learning.:)
I've found that the hard stuff tends not to be, once you start on it...enjoy it. What you have done is looking good.

jsjpd1
06-07-2010, 10:28 PM
I started my yacht with a piece of timber in one hand and a book in the other. If you aren't outside your comfort zone you're not learning.:)
I've found that the hard stuff tends not to be, once you start on it...enjoy it. What you have done is looking good.

Amen to that, just how I did it too.

What you've got so far looks pretty good Chuck.

Yeadon
06-07-2010, 10:49 PM
I like where this gentleman is coming from. When I built my boat, I had moments of deep despair that had to be overcome by dirty little lies of optimism. Glad to see you're back in the saddle, mister.

StevenBauer
06-07-2010, 10:56 PM
I know just how you feel, Chuck. I don't know how much longer I can put off cutting the tops of the transoms on the Humblebee. I just don't want to mess them up. It's going to have to be soon, I'm running out of other things to work on.



Steven

RodSBT
06-07-2010, 10:57 PM
Many moons ago I took a fiction writing class where the instructor talked much of the travails and hardships of writing the "first" book. He noted a certain technique his personal guru suggested for the first time writer which was:

"...to sit down and fill a thousand pages. No worries about spelling, just spill your guts into it. When your done take that stack of a thousand pages out in the back yard, put it in a barrel, and burn it! At this point you'll really be ready for your first book and it will be a good one!"

Now I ain't suggesting you torch your Grey Seal when your done, but I think you get the basic concept.....:D

You're right in the middle of a great accomplishment, relish every moment.

peter radclyffe
06-07-2010, 11:14 PM
good luck

Bear Hugger
06-08-2010, 01:45 AM
In the interest of longevity, I believe you ought to take the opportunity to strengthen the integrity of that hull while its open. Even if it were a day-sailer (which it doesn't appear to be), it's important to know that your ship will last for years to come, no matter what weather reaches your shore or moor.

I see that your boat is full-planked. I don't recall what the technical or nautical term for it is, but our last project was one as well. As it was, the original designer saw fit to put a second hull on the inside to strengthen it. The boat lasted 75 years that way, largely thanks to our help for the last 5 or so. Its tale would have continued on if we'd had the time and resources to help her further, but that's another story.

Our newest project is strip-planked and has classic lines. She's very strong unto herself, but like the first boat I mentioned, the designer or builder (we don't know which of either) saw fit to put heavy oak stringers, three to a side, inside and along her length. This made sure that the hull stayed strong and remained stable. She's 55 years young now, and going strong, especially since my dad and I recently rescued her from being crushed and have worked on her quite steadily since. Yet another story. Anyway, I'm sure the addition of those stringers played a huge part in her long life thus far.

With what I've seen of my family's collection of wooden boats and your pictures above, I'm sure you could do well to run some strong stringers along its length and fastened to each rib they encounter. It will likely add to its stability and might even double its intended life. It would also serve to tighten up the form of the hull and lend a shared, structural integrity to the ribs.

As for the way the stringers are laid in our new boat (a 32' sloop), they are kind of like latitude lines on the earth. They all start at a similar point forward, and end at a similar point astern, and travel the entire length of the boat, but amidships, they are at their widest apart. I think this is a good idea to follow.

Knowing your boat has that interior support, you may feel more comfortable in it. For certain, to feel more secure in your own craft will add to your enjoyment owning it and taking it out to sea. As for the rest of the hull, it looks good to me. You've done a credible job so far. I trust you'll have a good time building the rest of her. :)

Regards,
BH

Portland
06-08-2010, 03:10 AM
Chuck , as you know I didn't build my Grey Seal , but bought her with about 7 years of occasional use under her belt.
I've tested her very well since , and I've got no concerns with the boat at all.
The only issue I had was the engine box/sole , and I believe the heavy , old Yanmar that had been installed contributed to this.
I had that fixed , and now we have no issues at all , the boat is as tight as a drum.
Hang in their mate , build it as Iain suggested , and perhaps check out what we did with HS in regard to keeping the engine box/sole water proof.
We have had HS in pretty fierce conditions , and she handled it with aplomp .
I believe that if you do get to a bottleneck , just ask here.
Yes there are people like me who have little boat building experience who will offer an opinion , but there are others who really know their stuff , and who have the ability also to show you the way forward.
All I can really do is offer encouragement mate , it really is a beautiful boat , and when you are sailing her , you will be the happiest you have ever been.
Make haste slowly , and enjoy the journey .
Regards Rob J.

Nwhitehorse
06-08-2010, 11:20 AM
When I had my Ostkust worked on I had to go back through some of the things that were done wrong on the original construction and luckily that was possible without tearing the boat apart. I would suggest putting in stringers like bearhugger said cause it can't hurt and once the job is done it will be something you have some confidence in when you get caught out in the type of weather that your hull doesn't do well in.

chuckm
06-08-2010, 01:04 PM
So, stringers; like long interlocking battens, from frame to frame? How thick, could you incorporate a inside like floor wall approch. Interesting. Pic's...

gert
06-08-2010, 01:20 PM
Chuck forget the stringers.

This boat is largly monocoque construction with bulkheads, it doesn't need them.

Dave Gray
06-08-2010, 02:52 PM
I haven't read of any Grey Seals or Eun Na Mara's being built with stringers. Putting them it at this point, rather than during initial construction, might be a lot of unnecessary work. You can always ask Mr. Oughtred his thoughts.

paladin
06-08-2010, 02:56 PM
28 March 1940.......that's the way the military/givment writes it.....

Bear Hugger
06-09-2010, 12:39 AM
If you do use stringers, make them about as thick as your existing ribs. Let them be a little less wide than your outer planks, so they lay well against the curve of the hull, maybe 3 to 4 times the thickness of the rib. That is, if your rib stands one inch from the hull, let the width of the stringer be 4 inches, and the thickness be an inch, so that each stringer laid against the hull will stand two inches out from the hull, and one inch out from the rib on which it is laid.

If you feel like there's enough support at the bulkhead and astern, you might just try running the stringers up to them and letting the rest of the infrastructure deal with the strain of the hull, but it's no stronger than letting them run the entire length.

If it's difficult to get back or far forward, it's your call. I think you ought not go wild if it means backtracking a bunch. Just find a spot where a stringer can run along the curve of the hull amidst what you've already built, and try to duplicate the effect on the other side. If you can, I'd suggest you place one at about floor level up from the keel, one up near the decks but below the knees as they lay against the ribs, and one right in the middle to support the outermost curve of the hull.

A wood which won't swell very much when soaked for a while would be good to use. No matter how tight your seams, a full-planked boat will leak aplenty when put it into the water for the first time. She'll swell eventually, but you may have to keep the big pump handy. Should you add stringers, you may want to be sure that they don't start thickening up with the rest of her. Our stringers are of oak, but I think fir may also do the job.

Any thoughts, guys?

-BH

Bear Hugger
06-09-2010, 12:39 AM
28 March 1940.......that's the way the military/givment writes it.....


What's it mean, Paladin?

WX
06-09-2010, 12:57 AM
What do the plans show regarding stringers? I would stick to the plans regarding the structural framing.

Portland
06-09-2010, 02:24 AM
I'd just stick with the plans .
Its a strong hull , epoxied ply , it doesn't leak if built with care.
Gert has a thread on construction of a Grey Seal .
And finally , I had a long time traditional boat builder do some work on my Grey Seal , sorting a new engine box and sole , when we re-engined mine .
He was very impressed with her strength , and integrity , if he believed he could have improved her (apart from what we did) he had every opportunity to suggest improvements.
He builds strong , open water , commercial boats , but he was very happy with the fundamental strength of the boat.
She certainly doesn't leak in her hull , thats for sure , at all.
Regards Rob J.

john welsford
06-09-2010, 04:39 AM
Totally uneccessary in my opinion, I design boats in glued clinker plywood, Have built and tested panels and hull sections as well as having a couple of thousand boats afloat. I have done them with and without stringers. They are easier to build with stringers so I usually design them that way to make life easier for my mostly beginner builders, and it means that I can space the frames out a lot further and use wider planks in thinner material so the weight difference is minimal. But as Oughtred draws them with narrow planks, good wide glue surfaces and relatively close framing ( for this type of construction) it is not neccessary to add stringers to the structures that he draws.
Do remember that 50 years back this type of construction was rare, not well understood, and the boats were often not designed to take advantage of the strengths that it has. Iain Oughtred has been drawing these boats for decades, (longer than me even and my beard is almost pure white) , and I've not heard of any failures in that respect of boats from his drawing board, or mine.
Listen to your designer, he has way more experience than anyone here on that type of construction.

Carry on ChuckM, you're doing well!

John Welsford





In the interest of longevity, I believe you ought to take the opportunity to strengthen the integrity of that hull while its open. Even if it were a day-sailer (which it doesn't appear to be), it's important to know that your ship will last for years to come, no matter what weather reaches your shore or moor.

I see that your boat is full-planked. I don't recall what the technical or nautical term for it is, but our last project was one as well. As it was, the original designer saw fit to put a second hull on the inside to strengthen it. The boat lasted 75 years that way, largely thanks to our help for the last 5 or so. Its tale would have continued on if we'd had the time and resources to help her further, but that's another story.

Our newest project is strip-planked and has classic lines. She's very strong unto herself, but like the first boat I mentioned, the designer or builder (we don't know which of either) saw fit to put heavy oak stringers, three to a side, inside and along her length. This made sure that the hull stayed strong and remained stable. She's 55 years young now, and going strong, especially since my dad and I recently rescued her from being crushed and have worked on her quite steadily since. Yet another story. Anyway, I'm sure the addition of those stringers played a huge part in her long life thus far.

With what I've seen of my family's collection of wooden boats and your pictures above, I'm sure you could do well to run some strong stringers along its length and fastened to each rib they encounter. It will likely add to its stability and might even double its intended life. It would also serve to tighten up the form of the hull and lend a shared, structural integrity to the ribs.

As for the way the stringers are laid in our new boat (a 32' sloop), they are kind of like latitude lines on the earth. They all start at a similar point forward, and end at a similar point astern, and travel the entire length of the boat, but amidships, they are at their widest apart. I think this is a good idea to follow.

Knowing your boat has that interior support, you may feel more comfortable in it. For certain, to feel more secure in your own craft will add to your enjoyment owning it and taking it out to sea. As for the rest of the hull, it looks good to me. You've done a credible job so far. I trust you'll have a good time building the rest of her. :)

Regards,
BH

Portland
06-09-2010, 04:56 AM
Thanks for your contribution to this thread John.
And to Bear Hugger , because his contribution , and the civil debate (so far) , may help Chuck knuckle down , and finish his Grey Seal.
But thanks John , again.
Regards Rob J.

gert
06-09-2010, 09:19 AM
28 March 1940.......that's the way the military/givment writes it.....
Watch your meds ;)

Dick Wynne
06-09-2010, 09:35 AM
...Do remember that 50 years back this type of construction was rare, not well understood, and the boats were often not designed to take advantage of the strengths that it has. ...

i.e., That was Zen, this is Tao ... :)

OconeePirate
06-09-2010, 10:23 AM
28 March 1940.......that's the way the military/givment writes it.....

Where you also amazed by the fact that he is posting photos from the future?

ILikeRust
06-09-2010, 10:27 AM
If you aren't outside your comfort zone you're not learning.

That, mon frere, is quite a pithy statement. I mean that. It's better than a lot of the little quotes one sees on "motivational" posters and such.

I like it.

I will now proceed to steal it ruthlessly and use it with reckless abandon.

paladin
06-09-2010, 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by paladin View Post
28 March 1940.......that's the way the military/givment writes it.....

What's it mean, Paladin?


Day...month ...Year that's the way the military writes...civilians normally write
month...day...year 03/28/1940 instead of 28/03/1940

chuckm
06-09-2010, 04:20 PM
Chaos theory/String Theory; it's all relative to time and space; but the building must continue.

Candyfloss
06-09-2010, 04:56 PM
Today is 10.06.10. Day, Month, Year. The way the rest of the World writes it. Get over it.

You paid good money for these plans Chuckm, from a reputable designer. I don't know how detailed his instructions are, but I strongly urge you to follow them to the letter.

Having said that, there are things in those pictures I don't understand. Why are the decks on before the bulkheads are finished? Why are the bulkheads not finished? Your knees are a lovely shape. Why are there so many of them? Is that to the plan?

Captain Intrepid
06-09-2010, 04:56 PM
Day...month ...Year that's the way the military writes...civilians normally write
month...day...year 03/28/1940 instead of 28/03/1940

To make things confusing here, officially Canadians use YY/MM/DD, but because of our European history we also use DD/MM/YY, and because of our proximity to the USA we also use the illogical MM/DD/YY. So if someone writes that something happened on 02/01/04... good luck.

Tom Robb
06-09-2010, 05:15 PM
"Bull-****ting wannabes"?
Is this a product of the sort of manners taught in Texas these days, or is it a chaos thing?
How you might decide few of us never cut a gain I can't imagine.
Several here have vast experience - far greater than you or I ever will - and have the grace to share it with us most freely. Many here have built and or rebuilt and maintained wood boats.
Play nice.

wizbang 13
06-09-2010, 05:49 PM
Candyfloss, it's the 9th of June here, oh wait! it's tomorrow there!!

WX
06-09-2010, 05:52 PM
That, mon frere, is quite a pithy statement. I mean that. It's better than a lot of the little quotes one sees on "motivational" posters and such.

I like it.

I will now proceed to steal it ruthlessly and use it with reckless abandon.

You are more than welcome Bill, but if you make money out of it I want royalties...I have a boat to build you know.:D:D

The549
06-09-2010, 06:13 PM
When you people say the date aloud, do you really most commonly say "ninth of June?" as opposed to June ninth? If so, you shouldn't. Sounds too snuffy. :D
Like the build pics, hope to be one by this summer myself...

WX
06-09-2010, 06:16 PM
In Oz it's day, month, year.

Dave Gray
06-09-2010, 06:18 PM
Je regret mon comment in regards to the date. I was trying to be Yeadonesque and not use emoticons and I guess I was too oblique (ya guys need to be hit over the head or somethin'?). I grew up using the day/month/year method. What gets me is when I come across year/month/day. It takes a while to figure out which comes first.

The549
06-09-2010, 06:50 PM
to expound briefly on the date thing: not that it matters....at all, but it always made sense to me; Wednesday, June 9th, 2010. It's logically progressively more detailed. If you read something that said "today is the 9th" that to me would carry less information than "today is wednesday". :rolleyes: :)

Candyfloss
06-09-2010, 07:39 PM
Here in NZ we'd say "Today is Thursday, the tenth of June, twentyten". More formally, the clumsier "two thousand and ten".

Whizzbang, we Kiwis live in the future.

I'll pick up on Tom Robb's comment here. I built my first boat, a "P" Class sailing dinghy when I was seven years old. Been building boats ever since; the last twenty years, for a living. I don't consider myself a "wannabe".

davebrown
06-09-2010, 10:47 PM
success is often the result of not knowing when to quit. i've made a career out of that.

Bear Hugger
06-15-2010, 11:42 PM
I don't have any pictures of the interior. The boat's built with laminated oak ribs on 9" centers. The ribs are about an inch thick, and the stringers are a full one by four inches.

Do what you will, but whatever that is, it's pretty astounding you've gotten this far with your project. I wish you well.

Cheers,
BH