PDA

View Full Version : Lug vs. Gaff



Wayne Jeffers
06-06-2010, 03:58 PM
What are the relative merits of a balanced lugsail vs. a gaff sail, all else being equal? Is there enough difference in handling or performance to matter?

Wayne

wizbang 13
06-06-2010, 04:05 PM
In general,lug is better for a smaller boat, gaff is better for a larger heavy duty vessel.

Peerie Maa
06-06-2010, 05:36 PM
Balance lugs are small boat sails, as they extend so far forward of the mast that they don't suit headsails. Bigger working boats used standing or dipping lug, with jibs if wanted, and were usually for going there and back, big distances in open water. Gaff was used for boats that needed to manoeuvre a lot.
Lug is a more efficient sail, but subject to chafe, and could be labour intensive, whereas gaff was more hard wearing, and needed less crew.

Wayne Jeffers
06-06-2010, 06:09 PM
I was asking with a small trailerable boat - 16 to 20-feet LOA, and a mainsail of 115 to 160 sq. ft. - in mind. Figure sailed single-handed much of the time.

Nick - When you say a (standing?) lug is "more efficient" do you mean points higher, generates more drive, or ???

Wayne

hikingchrs
06-06-2010, 07:32 PM
A balanced lug is cheaper to buy; easier and quicker to setup, very important in a trailer sailer I see people with other rigs taking 1/2 hour or more before launch, takes me 5 min same for taking out.
Chris

James McMullen
06-06-2010, 09:21 PM
My lug yawl takes two minutes to set up, and that's including both masts. My gaff catboat took about 45 minutes. Gaff rigs are best suited for bigger boats where the rig stays up all the time rather than for boats that you rig and unrig frequently.

Wayne Jeffers
06-07-2010, 09:10 AM
My lug yawl takes two minutes to set up, and that's including both masts. My gaff catboat took about 45 minutes. Gaff rigs are best suited for bigger boats where the rig stays up all the time rather than for boats that you rig and unrig frequently.

Can you elaborate on that, please? Were the rigs otherwise the same? Unstayed mast (or forestay only) on the catboat? Nearly the same sail area?

Wayne

James McMullen
06-07-2010, 09:36 AM
The catboat had a peak halliard, a throat halliard and lazyjacks, plus the sheet of course, all of which needed to be sussed out and led correctly and rove through the appropriate bits and pieces. No matter how hard I tried to develop a system to keep the lines from tangling it always took time. If you left them all rove through the mast sheaves and then just rolled them up around the mast, then you had to figure out which string went where and untangle them. If you coiled each one up to keep them from tangling, then you had to take the time to do that. All of the lines had to be led the right way through the right slot before the mast went up because you couldn't reach them otherwise. Raising the mast with a buncha spaghetti festooned all through the sheaves gave more opportunities for things to snag on something or tangle or kink or hockle. Then you had to lace the luff robands around the mast and the parrels for the gaff jaws and the boom jaws. It all could be done with each step being quite simple, it's just that it took time.

The gunter-sloop rigged Fulmar had all of those same things to contend with, plus the shrouds and forestay to set up, a jib to hank on and a pair of jib sheets to lead around--more time yet.

The Instant Schooner I built was by far the worst, as it had two separate masts worth of gaff-rigged complication, plus a jib on top of it all. Basically, you just planned on spending some extra time at the ramp, no way around it.

In comparison, I spend about the same total time rigging up Rowan as I would spend just leading the jib sheets around alone. It takes me no more than a few minutes, and I can do it on the trailer, at the dock or while floating--makes no difference. Rowan's lug yawl rig is so easy to set up or take down that I'll just casually drop the rig entirely to save the windage if I have more than 500 yards to go.

Now a gaff rig certainly gives you more control over a larger sail than a lug. If I were to be considering a full-keeled, 40' displacement cruiser, I'd take the gaff for sure. But for small, trailerable boats, the lugger is primo.

Venchka
06-07-2010, 09:37 AM
I don't know about the two minute part. I guess if I had my act together it would take less time to set and strike my sails. I'm very pleased with the balanced lug rig on Elisabeth Grace. With or without the mizzen. You remember?

James McMullen
06-07-2010, 09:42 AM
Yeadon tried to take some video on our latest trip. We had next to no wind, so we were trying to find things to do, so we tried to film putting up the rig while afloat for both Rowan's lug yawl and Hvalsoe's spritsail. I believe it was right around two minutes to go from all spars flat in the boat to sails drawing, and a minute 45 seconds to strike and be back under oars. We'll see if his video came out and he'll surely post something on it if it did.

Paul Pless
06-07-2010, 09:48 AM
Balance lugs are small boat sails, as they extend so far forward of the mast that they don't suit headsails.Notice large boats with lug fore sail, lug mainsail, lug topsail, lug mizzen, and a jib.;)

http://www.mandragore2.net/dico/lexique2/navires2/chasse-maree-gd.jpg

http://www.vivierboats.com/Img/pauline2.jpg

Wayne Jeffers
06-07-2010, 10:21 AM
. . . You remember?
Absolutely!

James – I’ve no doubt that Rowan is quick and easy to rig. I’ve sailed on Wayne South’s CY Elizabeth Grace. It is hard not to be impressed with both the ease of setting and striking the rig, as well as the way she handles. As to sorting out the “spaghetti,” different colored lines would simplify that. ;)

I’m thinking of a gaff Bolger Chebacco vs. the new Gartside 20’ lugger (although the low cabin top on both is a bit of a concern for me.) Or an Oughtred Caledonia Yawl vs. a Bolger Spartina for an open boat.

Doesn't anyone have any love for a gaff rig on a small trailerable boat?

Wayne

JimD
06-07-2010, 10:36 AM
...Doesn't anyone have any love for a gaff rig on a small trailerable boat?

Wayne

Ask me in a month or so. I'm going to put one on a Glen-L Minuet. Very small. About 60 sq ft, along with a 48ft jib and a 20ft mizzen. Just thinking about it sounds complicated compared to the lug on our dinghy. I have to drive to the next city just to get slide track and slugs, an added expense compared to the lug which does not require securing the luff to the mast.

esingleman
06-07-2010, 10:37 AM
My standing lug doesn't seem to point as well to the wind as some of the small gaff rigged boats I have sailed, like say a 12 1/2. Also I notice better performance when the wind is coming from the side of the boat that is opposite to the side the boom and yard are on; the sail fills out completely and there is no flow disruption from the mast.

wizbang 13
06-07-2010, 10:37 AM
Notice huge crews on those large luggers.And small jibs. Gaff rig on a trailer boat just does not make sense.

BBSebens
06-07-2010, 10:40 AM
Absolutely!

James – I’ve no doubt that Rowan is quick and easy to rig. I’ve sailed on Wayne South’s CY Elizabeth Grace. It is hard not to be impressed with both the ease of setting and striking the rig, as well as the way she handles. As to sorting out the “spaghetti,” different colored lines would simplify that. ;)

...

Doesn't anyone have any love for a gaff rig on a small trailerable boat?

Wayne

I don't think simplicity is the problem... just time. there are simply more lines involved in a gaff rig. And if you are striking the rig even semi-frequently, then its a major consideration.

Would you rather spend your time rigging? or sailing? :p

Wayne Jeffers
06-07-2010, 11:58 AM
My standing lug doesn't seem to point as well to the wind as some of the small gaff rigged boats I have sailed, like say a 12 1/2. Also I notice better performance when the wind is coming from the side of the boat that is opposite to the side the boom and yard are on; the sail fills out completely and there is no flow disruption from the mast.

That fits with my expectation. I would like to hear more about sailing qualities of each.

Wayne

Wayne Jeffers
06-07-2010, 12:05 PM
. . . Gaff rig on a trailer boat just does not make sense.
I think that depends . . .

If you have a few hours to launch, sail, and retrieve, time spent rigging matters very much.

If the water is a couple of hours drive from home, and you're going to launch and keep the boat in the water for several days or a week while you're staying at a lakeside cottage (or sleeping on the boat,) rigging time matters much less.

Wayne

Peerie Maa
06-07-2010, 12:12 PM
Notice large boats with lug fore sail, lug mainsail, lug topsail, lug mizzen, and a jib.;)

http://www.mandragore2.net/dico/lexique2/navires2/chasse-maree-gd.jpg

http://www.vivierboats.com/Img/pauline2.jpg

Those are standing lugs, a lot less sail forward of the mast. In fact the French sling their yards further forward, at about 1/4 not 1/3 so there is less sail forward of the mast, but they need peak halyards as well. Sort of midway between gaff and lug.

Wayne Jeffers
06-07-2010, 12:17 PM
I don't think simplicity is the problem... just time. there are simply more lines involved in a gaff rig.
. . .

Not always that much of a difference.

The new Gartside 20' lugger I'm considering has throat and peak halyards, topping lift, and a parrel line to cinch the yard to the mast in reefed position.

Bolger's Chebacco with the gaff main doesn't compare so badly.

Wayne

Yeadon
06-07-2010, 12:45 PM
James McMullen setting up a balance lug sail.
Setting up a Lug Sail (1:30) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/superyeadon/4678893659)

James McMullen dousing a balance lug sail.
Dousing a Lug Sail (1:30) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/superyeadon/4678150852/)

Wayne Jeffers
06-07-2010, 03:11 PM
That's pretty impressive.

Wayne

dredbob
06-07-2010, 08:53 PM
My standing lug doesn't seem to point as well to the wind as some of the small gaff rigged boats I have sailed, like say a 12 1/2. Also I notice better performance when the wind is coming from the side of the boat that is opposite to the side the boom and yard are on; the sail fills out completely and there is no flow disruption from the mast.

What kind of boat is your lugger? You can't compare two totally different kinds of boat and then just pick one feature to blame for differences in performance. If you want to know what rig works best, you have to compare them on the same hull, so that all else really is the same. Every element of a boat design contributes (or detracts) to the overall function of the boat, so it just doesn't make sense to compare two boats unless they are very much the same in hull form, keel/foil configuration, waterline length, displacement, etc, etc.

Fortunately for us small boat sailors, there have been several series of tests or trials over the years where all else was equal other than rig. The most well known is the series of wind tunnel tests carried out by C. A. Marchaj as described in his book _Sail Performance_. He compared 14 variations of small boat sails, including bermudan with and without jib, a short gaff variation of the bermuda, dipping lug, several varieties of spritsail and lateen rigs, a gunter, and the ancient polynesian crabclaw.

The result was that the crabclaw was markedly superior to all the other rigs overall, while the lug, gunter and spritsails were generally a little better than, or no worse, than the bermudan (including gaff) configurations. No one rig was the absolute best on every heading, but anyone who believes that the high aspect bermudan rig is the be all and end all of sail rigs needs to read the results of this test.

Other than the crab claw, all of the others were not all that dramatically different, so that in the real world, things like the cut and set of the sail (ie., luff tension, sheeting angle, etc), and the skill of the sailor, would probably account for more of any actual differences on the water, even if the hulls and foils were otherwise identical.

Bob

Whameller
06-10-2010, 04:09 PM
My 18 foot Whammel is gaff rigged. 160 sq ft of sail in main & jib. Takes about 15 minutes to rig solo, less with crew assistance; latter is less than reliable, the ccrew being a teenager.

I leave all halyards (jib, throat & peak) permanently reaved, as are shrouds & forestay. Biggest time consumer is lacing main to the mast using John Leather's favoured method.

IMHO it is the perfect rig for what I want it for - some daysailing, some camp cruising; plenty of control, good on the wind, fantastic off. I've sailed much smaller dinghies with lugs & they are fine as well for pottering.

Horses for courses ?

James McMullen
06-10-2010, 05:44 PM
90 seconds vs 15 minutes?. . . .doesn't matter so very much if you're rigging up at the launch ramp for the whole day vs setting and striking while afloat where time is of the essence. I like gaff rigs too, but not for sail & oar boats.

wtarzia
06-10-2010, 05:58 PM
Interesting note on Marchaj and crab-claws as reported in _Sail Performance_ (wonderful book, and I also just got his Seaworthiness book): some German reasearchers could not duplicate his results in their own windtunnel. The following note was posted to the proa discussion group a few years ago (Yahoo Groups; permission was granted to distribute further) and was by and for a group of people who really wanted to see the excellent Marchaj evaluation confirmed (I was sailing with a traditionally rigged shunting crabclaw at the time and very interested). The researchers provided Marchaj their results and invited a response; he kindly answered, but I do not recall the answer as being especially enlightening):

---------------------
Hello all -- One year ago we started to test all elements of a delta sail (crabclaw) in a professional manner in a big wind channel of a German university. The results (today only in German available) are in the file system of the eGroup "Deltasegel": http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/deltasegel/files/WINDKANAL%202003/ (http://de.groups.yahoo.com/group/deltasegel/files/WINDKANAL%202003/) Interest people which are familiar with terms of hydrodynamic shouldcan interpret the graphs and diagrams.

# The resume in few words is, the advantages of a Crab claw oppositeto a Bermuda are only on courses with bigger angles as wind beam. Onall angles closer as 40-45 degree to the apparent wind the Crab clawcannot beat any Bermuda.

# The lift coefficient rises with the diameter of the sparsindependent from sail shape. Most efficient is a tangential on thespars fixed sail (lee side) or a sail pocket for the spars like usedat Wharram wingsail

# Interesting are the test results of the different angles ofsailshape. We tested narrow sails with 30 degrees over 45 to 60degrees (equilateral triangle).Results:- If the lower spar is parallel to the surfcae of the water (beamreach/downwind position) the order of efficiency is 45° - 30° - 60°- If the upper spar is vertically arranged (close to the windposition) the order is 60° - 45° - 30°- If the center line of the delta is parallel to the surfcae of thewater (unusual position) the order is 45° - 60° - 30°

# The cut out at the sails leech (the crab claw shape) has only asmall measurable effect.

# We tested three kinds of cambered sails: plane, 1:10, 1:5. Result: As bigger the camber as better the lift coefficient. Eg. in the closeto the wind position the lift coefficient arrised about 35 percent.

# Reefing I. Eg. the equilateral triangle (60°) reefed by a reducing30° part (a third of the area) decrease the propelling force to 58percent

# Reefing II. Eg. to camber a nearly plane sail to 1:5 in beamreach/downwind position and an angle of incidence of wind of 20°decrease the propelling force to 29 percent

# The values of the delta shape which Marchaj used/shows in hisbook "Sailing Performance" were not to comprehend. We got as best alift coefficient of 1,05 where Marchaj got 1,90! We have no explanation for it.

I believe, I have to apologize my translation now, but I hope you could understand the main items. A sponsor for a complete andprofessional translation of the 20 pages from German to English iswanted.

Regards, Othmar Karschulin
Multihull Sailors Community www.multihull.de

dredbob
06-10-2010, 06:36 PM
Yes, I think I recall some thing about the crabclaw results not being repeated by others. But for me, the important part of the results is the overall closeness of the performance of all the other rigs. The lugsail, spritsail, gunter, lateen, etc, for the same sail area when every other thing is the same, have about the same overall performance, and are not inherently inferior to the bermudan rig, as is commonly imagined. Each rig has its peculiaritys, its various ways of being handled most efficiently, etc., and what works well aerodynamically is not always easy to physically handle, especially as the size and weight of sail and spar increase.

But for the small kinds of boats we are concerned with here, the point is that any of the common rigs, with a well cut sail and proper spars and gear suited to it, in a boat suited to it, can potentially sail as well, as efficiently, as any other rig of the same area of actual canvas.

So choose the rig that tugs at your heart strings, as it were, and remember that the point of it all is to enjoy the boat and the sailing.

---
Bob

wizbang 13
06-10-2010, 06:38 PM
Dredbob, just as one should not compare same rigs on different boats,one cannot make comparissons in only one sea condition or wind speed. To me, the big advantage of lug is the speed of striking the rig, the whole rig, as we see Rowan doing. The mast must come down on a small open boat. Unsinkable/decked boat? That changes things. Time saved at the launching ramp is swell,but thats not the main event.Of course, any rig that does not carry a jib does not need standing rigging and can be lifted out. 90 seconds can be shortened even more , in a sh*t storm, never mind the halyd,just yuck the mast with the rig, and throw it overboard as a drogue!!

dredbob
06-10-2010, 07:08 PM
Dredbob, just as one should not compare same rigs on different boats,one cannot make comparissons in only one sea condition or wind speed. To me, the big advantage of lug is the speed of striking the rig, the whole rig, as we see Rowan doing. The mast must come down on a small open boat. Unsinkable/decked boat? That changes things. Time saved at the launching ramp is swell,but thats not the main event.Of course, any rig that does not carry a jib does not need standing rigging and can be lifted out. 90 seconds can be shortened even more , in a sh*t storm, never mind the halyd,just yuck the mast with the rig, and throw it overboard as a drogue!!

I am in complete agreement with you. Here on the Chesapeake it has long been the tradition to heave the rig overboard in a hard chance.

I personally think that the boomed balanced lug with no jib and a mizzen, as James is using, is the perfect open boat rig for use on potentially rough, big water. I believe that any single hander who may expect to be caught out in a place where they can't easily run for shelter, needs an easily flattened small mizzen, a strikable rig, and probably a drogue.

On more sheltered waters, I wouldn't hesitate to use any of the other small boat rigs on a boat to which it seemed to be appropriate.

Again, my only real point is that one shouldn't hesitate to go with any particular rig because of fears that is is not "efficient". For the same amount of actual (not rated) sail area, taking into account all points of sail, with equally well cut sails set optimally, there ain't that big a difference in overall aerodynamic performance.

Bob

Clinton B Chase
06-10-2010, 09:46 PM
A gaff will be easier to handle in a larger boat, but I would suggest that a smaller boat with a lug will do much better in light air conditions with a big lug or two. Vivier has a beautiful 'flambart' rig for Ebihen 16 that may becoming available. This rig would be a nice rig to use when the wind is light and variable if you can keep the sail drawing, the boat would carry its way through light air.

I, Rowboat
06-10-2010, 11:40 PM
Lug topsails? Why, I had no idea such a thing even existed. Cool!

Hmm. Perhaps I'll need to look into a topmast for Dragonfly.

earlethomas
06-10-2010, 11:40 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oVZqV2SAiRY/SwduZhJp2XI/AAAAAAAACwI/vTniqhlW8gw/s400/Jigsaw.tif.jpg

Here's a very small boat ,13', lug rig (balanced I think) with a topsail. Read more here (http://70point8percent.blogspot.com/search?q=topsail)...

wtarzia
06-11-2010, 01:09 AM
I've been thinking of a topsail for my small lug for when the wind dies as it usually does. But the riggingh seems complex for a small boat -- running this way and that to the ends of the yard. Unless.... on a small boat you drop the main (since you are in the doldrums, wouldn't be a problem), directly attach the tack and clue to the main yard, and raise them as a package? Butr then when the wind picks up, hard to take down again? What's the method? -- Wade

wtarzia
06-11-2010, 01:21 AM
Yes, I think I recall some thing about the crabclaw results not being repeated by others. But for me, the important part of the results is the overall closeness of the performance of all the other rigs. ...

--- I agree, the results were interesting for the other sails though I wish he had tested a standing lug. After reading those results I opted for standing lugs on my boat, and I have not been dissatisfied as their all around package of traits seems worth it (one of those traits was availability to find proven commercial versions for a small boat from the WB Store).

As for the crabclaw, I liked it (I used a straight yard and boom, unlike the curved ones Marchaj recommended). Everyone should try a shunting crabclaw on a proa once in their lives to get a nonWestern experience. The crabclaw seems very forgiving of angle -- or perhaps I mean, it has generous stall margins. Not great to windward but fine on a close reach, and highly adjustable (mast cant, yard angle) if you want to play. Brailing/spilling lines work well on the sail, adding utility and some other adjustments (windward line adjusts sail draft, leeward line cuts sail and spills wind, a traditional Pacific native de-powering method, and both lines brail-up the sail quickly). Haven't tried a tacking crabclaw yet. reminds me of the sail used on an Alpha Dory. -- Wade

john welsford
06-11-2010, 03:50 AM
My own design Houdini ( please excuse guys, this is not an ad, its just the only place I can get the illustration I wanted to show what I'm on about, if you dont want to see a commercial page, dont click the link) http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/houdini/index.htm
Was originally fitted with the sprit boomed standing lug shown here, it works really well in that it is close winded, controllable, does not roll the boat around when running downwind, and can be reefed as shown in one of the pics ( although Richard needed more downhaul tension to pull those creases out).
During the boats life I converted the rig to a gaffer using the same sail, and found that it gained a couple of degrees in pointing angle, but took another 10 mins to rig which about doubled the time from picking the mast up and plugging it into the step, and sailing, and until I fitted a really powerful vang to control the twist it rolled the boat dreadfully when running downwind.
I then fitted a balance lug of the same area, and it was not quite as versatile and tuneable as the sprit boomed version, had a little more difference in efficiency between one tack and the other, but was very gentle and well behaved but took a bit longer to reef, and it needed to have the sail pretty well right down to get that reef effectively tied in, ( yes I tried lazyjacks)
Today I draw balance lugsails where I want ease of handling first and foremost up to a sail area of about 150 sq ft, still use the sprit boomed standing lug where I want a really powerful rig within a cost limit, and go to gaff for either performance or sails larger than about 250 sq ft. ( I've been playing with gaff rig for a while and some will recall the thread on AWOL with her track mounted main luff and gaff slide instead of jaws, and her fully battened main. There are more experiments to come on that front)

John Welsford


What are the relative merits of a balanced lugsail vs. a gaff sail, all else being equal? Is there enough difference in handling or performance to matter?

Wayne

mizzenman
06-11-2010, 04:13 AM
I then fitted a balance lug of the same area, and it was not quite as versatile and tuneable as the sprit boomed version, had a little more difference in efficiency between one tack and the other, but was very gentle and well behaved but took a bit longer to reef, and it needed to have the sail pretty well right down to get that reef effectively tied in, ( yes I tried lazyjacks)

John Welsford

This is verry interesting. I would have thought the ballanced lug was one onf the most easy to reef. Especially compared to a sprit bomed sail.

How was the reefing set up on the sprit bomed sail? Did you have to remove the sprit for reefing?

JimD
06-11-2010, 09:06 AM
.. I've been playing with gaff rig for a while and some will recall the thread on AWOL with her track mounted main luff and gaff slide instead of jaws, and her fully battened main. There are more experiments to come on that front)

John Welsford

Thanks for reminding me about that, John. I have another thread going on exactly that so I will pay more attention to AWOL from now on. Anything to add on the jawless gaff?

john welsford
06-11-2010, 04:27 PM
This is verry interesting. I would have thought the ballanced lug was one onf the most easy to reef. Especially compared to a sprit bomed sail.

How was the reefing set up on the sprit bomed sail? Did you have to remove the sprit for reefing?

The tack downhaul tackle was moved up to the next tack cringle, ( in fact I had two, and leapfrogged them if I needed two reefs in) and there was a standard slab reef in the clew. Lower the halyard to the correct position and cleat off and pull the slab reef in, haul down on the tack and sheet in. If you were going to be sailing for a while, tie in the reef points. I did have some success with a light line run through the reef point eyelets and just pulling that in. No need to unship or move the sprit, the luff of the sail being not laced to the mast its not in the way.
Total time maybe less than a minute.

John W

john welsford
06-11-2010, 04:32 PM
Thanks for reminding me about that, John. I have another thread going on exactly that so I will pay more attention to AWOL from now on. Anything to add on the jawless gaff?

The forward end of the gaff runs on a fitting originally produced as a boom gooseneck that slides up and down in the mast track ( RL 252 A on this link to Duckworksmagazine http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/rigging/rl328/index.htm )
But batten cars used on the fully battened sails often used in multihulls will work fine. The objective was to reduce the windage and weight aloft and it works very well.

John Welsford

mizzenman
06-11-2010, 04:39 PM
Thanks for the explanation, John W.

Now I have to rethink my rig for the hundreth time :D

Wayne Jeffers
06-11-2010, 04:47 PM
Thanks everyone. This is just the kind of discussion of relative sailing merits that I was interested in.

For me, the greater propensity for the gaff main to twist is a consideration. I would rather not have to mess with vangs and such on a small boat. Advantage balanced lug.

Wayne

JimD
06-11-2010, 06:20 PM
The forward end of the gaff runs on a fitting originally produced as a boom gooseneck that slides up and down in the mast track ( RL 252 A on this link to Duckworksmagazine http://www.duckworksbbs.com/hardware/rigging/rl328/index.htm )
But batten cars used on the fully battened sails often used in multihulls will work fine. The objective was to reduce the windage and weight aloft and it works very well.

John Welsford

I'm considering a wood box mast with slide track. In that case a gooseneck such as the RL 327 sounds like the way to go for the gaff.

WX
06-11-2010, 06:34 PM
of course you could ignore both and do this instead.:)

http://bambooman.gallery.netspace.net.au/albums/odd-sods/20050906_021_Johanna_1024_dots.jpg

wizbang 13
06-11-2010, 06:41 PM
Thoses battens look a wee bit too stiff!

WX
06-11-2010, 06:45 PM
They are meant to be, it's the camber in the panels that give the drive.

James McMullen
06-11-2010, 08:10 PM
a junk rig is pretty much a fully battened balance lug--just sayin'

WX
06-11-2010, 08:16 PM
a junk rig is pretty much a fully battened balance lug--just sayin'
Yep, but easier to manage than the European Lug rig and more efficient.

James McMullen
06-11-2010, 08:25 PM
"more efficient" in making leeway, you mean? Sorry, amigo. I likes me a junk rig too, but that poofy, lumpy, battened sail ain't efficient like this one--not if by "efficient" you mean crazy good windward performance.

http://yacht-photos.rightboat.com/boat-images/12091821/-roxane-d7c8ea.jpg http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/images/roxanne_-_cb99.jpg http://www.roxane-romilly.co.uk/images/22.jpg

James McMullen
06-11-2010, 08:26 PM
Those were standing lugs,actually.

WX
06-11-2010, 08:37 PM
That particular yacht will point almost as high as an equivalent Bemudan, that where the cambered panels kick in. Modified Junk rig started out with flat cut panels which gave poor windward performance. Anyway this time next year i hope to be able to back up my assertions with 1st hand experience...I'll leave it at that.:)

htom
06-11-2010, 08:48 PM
Would it be possible (and practical) to use the same mast, step, and partners as gaff-rigged sloop and as a lug of some sort? You'd have to cart more sails, booms, yards, ... but if you were going to stay somewhere for a week, put up the gaff rig and the standing rigging, if you were only stopping for a lunch sail, throw up the lug.

Todd Bradshaw
06-11-2010, 10:04 PM
Are they really "cambered" panels, or are they relying on stretch and sag in fabrics like Top Gun to get that shape between the battens? I don't know much about these "modern-ized" junk rigs, but it seems to me that designed-in camber might greatly limit your ability to adjust the sail's shape to suit the conditions (maximum camber is not always what to want to be happening) and stretched-in camber would as well, but mostly just from lack of control. It will be interesting to see how well they work, compared to both the flat junk rigs and to sails with more normal built-in draft and draft adjustments. I sort of wonder just how good the all-around performance will be when the draft is divided up into so many smaller, non-adjustable pieces. Here again though, the real test would be how it compared in a variety of ways to a different rig on the same hull, and that all too often seems to be the test that doesn't get done before folks start boasting about their performance.

WX
06-12-2010, 12:14 AM
Are they really "cambered" panels, or are they relying on stretch and sag in fabrics like Top Gun to get that shape between the battens?The camber is cut in either by rounding the edges of each panel or using the Beam Shelf method. The camber in my sails will be 8% with maximum camber 7.52% in from the Luff.
The Norwegian Arne Kverneland (http://www.leow.de/chinese/stavanger/) has been the main developer of the cambered Junk rig and has been testing and using the rig since the mid 90s. Malena has had a range of different rigs from Bermudan, through the different forms of JR, flat panels, jointed battens and finally cambered panels. Arne has been sailing since the 70s and has designed and sailed Bermudan and Gaff rigs.
Slieve MacGalliard has taken the rig one step further a developed the Split rig. His yacht blitzed through a big yacht race. Here's a photo of his yacht Poppy

http://www.leow.de/chinese/newsletter/IMG_4300b.JPG

WX
06-12-2010, 12:26 AM
I should point out the sail is raised, lowered, reefed from the cockpit, there is no need to go near the bow except to handle the anchor.
Anne and Pete Hill sailed their Junk rigged 34 ft Benford Badger to such places as Greenland and the South Georgia Islands ( down South West of the Falklands...and those were flat panels in their sails.
The original owner of Ron Glas, Jock McLeod once bragged he could sail across the North Atlantic in his slippers. He had all his control lines leading back into the cabin.:)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XAFVC318L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Todd Bradshaw
06-12-2010, 01:36 AM
It should be very interesting to see how well it works, though I can't say that somebody "blitzing through a big yacht race" makes much of an impression. I was hoping that website might have some serious tech info about the rigs, but it seems to be nearly all fluff and some nice photos. Other than sticking the rig on a boat and observing the old and familiar "it works great" have they actually done much in the way of tweaking and experimenting with the cut? There are some pretty nasty stress wrinkles on the sails in almost all of the photos, where things aren't quite all working right. The cambered ones also often seem to be awfully drafty up high with hooked leeches up there, which usually isn't very efficient. If that is boat cover fabric (Odyssey, Top Gun, Sunbrella, Weather Max, etc.) as opposed to real sailcloth, (it doesn't hang the way Dacron would) that might explain some of the cloth tension problems and the less than ideal upper sail shape.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the strange and unusual, but when you start quoting draft and entry angles in percentages with decimal points, but the fabric appears to be boat cover fabric - which is quite durable, but has nearly zero bias stability by sailcloth standards I start wondering how you plan to maintain that amount of draft, draft placement and entry angle? I haven't seen a sail yet, of any type or material where maintaining the designed shape and draft isn't critical to efficient performance - even spinnakers.

Different strokes, I guess - but interesting strokes none the less.

wizbang 13
06-12-2010, 01:43 AM
Yer' tellin me that blue sail is supposed to look like that and it's fast? Blow me down!!

WX
06-12-2010, 08:26 AM
Yer' tellin me that blue sail is supposed to look like that and it's fast? Blow me down!!
We are talking cruising sail here with a windward ability of around 45 degrees off the wind. As for sail cloth Arne's sail is nylon and he can get good life out of it because where he lives. All his work on the cambered sail is available from the files section of the Junk rig forum as is a wealth of other information. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word blitz but Poppy went from the back of the fleet to the front on the downwind run. The Split rig is still quite new. if you were to take two boats the same but put a Bermudan one and a cambered Junk rig on the other with the same sail area with two sailors of equal ability the JR would beat the Bermudan on all but to windward.
Anne Hill when sailing in company with Nick Skeates' Wylo II, a Gaff Cutter of equal length found that to windward Wylo II was faster, but the 2 boats equal from close reach to broad reach. Downwind Badger was faster and Badger had flat cut panels. regarding sail cloth, the stresses in JR are vastly different to conventional sails. In JR the loads are taken by the Luff and Leach bolt ropes. if you were to tear a panel it would not damage the rest of the sail. When Anne and Pete replaced their first sail it would not support it's own weight when they took it off the yacht, the fabric tore.
As for material, I am expecting delivery of 40 metres of Odyssey III next week...with luck.
Wrinkles can be controlled to a fair degree by various methods such as installing Hong Kong Parrels. The Junk rig is a proven offshore rig, it's low tech, you can carry up to 10% more sail because of the ease of reefing which means you can carry more sail longer before you have to reef. You don't need standing rigging which adds unwanted tensions and stresses. Before the wind you can square off to 90 degrees and if you somehow managed a Gybe all standing it's no drama because the rig will weathercock and lose it's force before it gets right over. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vhCG14PYJs
What else, oh yeah on a sloop rig you only need one sail. if you seriously want to know more about the rig then either read Practical Junk Rig by Bondie Hasler & Jock McLeod or Join the Junkrig forum ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/junkrig/) or do both.:)
I know I'm coming across like born again Christian but if you are into cruising then think about.
Voyaging on a Small Income by Anne Hill is an exceptional read.

JimD
06-12-2010, 09:24 AM
Last time we talked about cambered junk panels someone was cuting the cloth with the camber at the battens. I suggested cutting the camber into the middle of the panel, and flat at the battens, Possibly with very stiff battens. So what happens when the battens bend? They never bend to the optimal curve. Questions, questions.

James McMullen
06-12-2010, 09:28 AM
. . . .on all but to windward.

Well, there's the rub, aye?

Horses for courses, of course.

wizbang 13
06-12-2010, 09:40 AM
Even90 % between tacks sound high for that goofy lookin sail. I'm not sayin' it's goofy cuz it's junk,but because of those seven shapes in one sail. This is the new thing?

JimD
06-12-2010, 09:46 AM
. . .on all but to windward.

Doesn't sound like much has changed. The junk has always been a great downwind and decent reaching sail. Hasler's junk rigged folkboat proved that and it was flat cut iirc.

JimD
06-12-2010, 09:48 AM
Well, there's the rub, aye?

Horses for courses, of course.

In any event a junk rigged row/sail boat doesn't make much sense no matter how efficient it was. The junk may be convenient to sail but not to set up and take down. Its real strength is reefing.

JimD
06-12-2010, 09:50 AM
Is this not a good case for lazy jacks?

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/images/roxanne_-_cb99.jpg

JimD
06-12-2010, 09:52 AM
Cool lug

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yamatod1.gif

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yamatop4.jpghttp://www.selway-fisher.com/Yamatop2.jpg
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yamatop2.jpg

JimD
06-12-2010, 09:53 AM
Another I like

24' BEAUMARIS http://www.selway-fisher.com/Beaumd2.gif
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Beaump1.jpg
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Beaump2.jpg

slidercat
06-12-2010, 11:10 AM
Here's a junk rig I put on an 11 foot dinghy:

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/nesterjunk.jpg

This was mostly just for fun, but it worked fine.

I love the rig, and I suspect that development using modern materials and concepts will eventually remedy the less than stellar windward performance.

The rig in general hasn't been successful on multihulls yet, though there's a guy who's sailing a junk-rigged proa that seems pretty fast.

JimD
06-12-2010, 11:23 AM
But could you take it down, mast and all, and stow it on the boat for rowing? And how did you reef it? It doesn't look like there's room for the sheets to extend aft.


Here's a junk rig I put on an 11 foot dinghy:

http://slidercat.com/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/nesterjunk.jpg

This was mostly just for fun, but it worked fine.

I love the rig, and I suspect that development using modern materials and concepts will eventually remedy the less than stellar windward performance.

The rig in general hasn't been successful on multihulls yet, though there's a guy who's sailing a junk-rigged proa that seems pretty fast.

slidercat
06-12-2010, 12:18 PM
Sheetlets went to the rudderhead. It reefed like any junk. As you say, it wasn't particularly easy to stow for rowing, but where I live, the breeze is remarkably reliable, so not much need for rowing.

Here's some video of that proa with the junk rig. It's interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Proadude#p/u/14/INQeMsnlvlI

obscured by clouds
06-12-2010, 12:24 PM
standing lug on an old National 18

http://premium1.uploadit.org/swordie//tv2.jpg

WX
06-12-2010, 06:41 PM
Last time we talked about cambered junk panels someone was cuting the cloth with the camber at the battens. I suggested cutting the camber into the middle of the panel, and flat at the battens, Possibly with very stiff battens. So what happens when the battens bend? They never bend to the optimal curve. Questions, questions.
Cutting the camber into the middle has been done and is known as the shelf foot method (though it has also been called batten shelf...and I may have called it something else above), apparently it is used in conventional sails. With cambered panels the battens are stiff with minimal bend. there are a couple of professional sail makers in Britain and Germany building Junk sails using this method. it does seem to give a better set to the sail; less wrinkles.
I will leave it at that, I think I have hijacked the thread enough.