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nw_noob
06-05-2010, 03:02 PM
Christians often make the claim that America is a Christian nation, but it's not, and it never was. Because the U.S. isn't a Christian nation, evangelical Christians in America aren't always free to exercise their faith as they see fit, can't display pictures of Jesus or the ten commandments in courthouses anymore, and often find themselves meeting strong opposition from non-Christians when any mention of the bible is made in public. So what is a good evangelical Christian American to do when confronted with the evils of such a godless nation as this? It's simple: form a true Christian nation.

Jews have Jerusalem, Muslims have Mecca, and Catholics have the Vatican, Christians too need their own homeland.

You probably wonder just where such a state could be located. The new Christian Nation should be in the place where it got it's start, the Mediterranean Sea. Greek is the language of the holy texts of the New Testament, and much of modern evangelical Christian doctrine is based on the writings of the apostles Paul and Peter from the time they spent sailing between the communities of the eastern Mediterranean like Phillipi, Thessalonica, Ephesus, etc. In fact, Paul wrote about being shipwrecked on one of the islands off the shores of Greece. American evangelical Christians need to buy a couple Greek islands so that a real Christian Homeland can be formed. That is after all the birthplace of the modern religion and it's traditions. Some American evangelical Christians are even descendants of people who lived in or around those lands long ago. Now, I know most modern evangelicals can't trace their genealogy back 2000 years to persons or places with any certainty, but that's not really important, the Christian faith's roots and language are there, and that's enough.

Here's how the Christian homeland will be formed: first, buy land from the current owners. Preliminary estimates show about 90% of the land needed for the Christian Nation can be purchased from the Greek government. Next, send an open invitation to evangelical Christians throughout the U.S. and the rest of the world to come and settle the newly acquired homeland. After enough Christians come live in the homeland, declare independence from Greece, or any other power short of God himself. Now, there are some people who already live on these islands, but don't worry, they'll be offered citizenship in the CN if they want to stay and assimilate into the culture of the C.N. The Greek government will try to oppose the C.N. but the C.N. has plenty of money in the imaginary budget to arm it's citizens to defend the homeland against these foreign forces. Of course some of the previous residents won't be happy with the influx of newcomers, some may even want to start fights with the Christian government, but hey, the landowners make the rules, not the neighbors, if they don't like the C.N. they can go live on the S.W. corner of island #2 and leave the Christians alone. It will be necessary at first that all able bodied men who settle the homeland serve in the military, but after the islands are secured, and C.N. independence is accepted internationally, a year or two of service by the young people of the C.N. should be enough to sustain a robust defense force.

Make no mistake evangelicals, the C.N. will not come without birth pains. The road won't be easy, non-believers will try to stop the effort, and blood will be shed, but wasn't it written long ago that Christians will be persecuted for their belief in Jesus? Violent opposition to statehood will be the norm, not the exception, it's just God's will. Anti-Christians have make every attempt to remove God from America. They've tried to remove his name from the pledge of allegiance, the money, the courthouses, the schools, and they will oppose the formation of the C.N. too. Just remember that you are being persecuted for Jesus's sake as you carry the banner of the C.N. for the homeland. These anti-Christians are just pure evil of the worst kind. Take comfort in knowing that they will be smited by God for their evil deeds.

Some scoff when they hear this idea, saying a Christian Nation is nothing more than a violent land grab, and such a thing has never been done before in the history of the world. Well I say sure, the C.N. sounds like a far off dream now, but if enough American evangelicals contribute to the cause by sending money to the Christian American Political Action Committee, and write their congressman in support of the C.N., Christians can finally have a homeland to call their own, anti-Christians be damned.

jbelow
06-05-2010, 03:22 PM
No such thing as a Christian Nation. Those that claim it or support it are not Christians. It would be a land grab , violent our otherwise !

nw_noob
06-05-2010, 03:22 PM
Thanks Norman, I hope the point isn't that difficult to see though.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
06-05-2010, 03:22 PM
Before I read the post, I was about to quote Mohandas Ghandi's remark about western civilisation!

Brilliant! :D

McMike
06-05-2010, 03:28 PM
I think it's a great idea . . . for America, not so much for Greece.

By the way Norman, I get the parallel to Israel.

skuthorp
06-05-2010, 06:04 PM
Any bets on how long it would last before fighting broke out? After all there'd be all those armed 'christians' from the US for a start. You'd end up rapidly resembling the Taliban. But seriously, how come the enormous majority of religious feel so threatened by so few of us ungodly who don't care what you do at home as long as you are not forcing us to do the same? Paranoia, or a sneaking fear we may be right?

paladin
06-05-2010, 06:18 PM
Naw...just do like the "Americans" did and try to totally annihilate the inhabitants. I hope andy jackson burns in hell.

nw_noob
06-05-2010, 06:23 PM
Fighting would likely start sooner than later. However once the country is secured, the rebels would have no way to arm themselves due to the Christian naval blockade that would be necessary to maintain security. Peace would eventually be attained, one bullet at a time.

john welsford
06-05-2010, 06:30 PM
The same people who claim that America is a Christian Nation also claim that it is a free country. But you cant have both, freedom of religious belief is a fundamental right of those who live in a free country.
So, it sounds as though you are proposing to start yet another religious war in order to create a country in which people will not have the freedom to hold their own beliefs? Do you propose to bring back stoning and crucifiction as well?
Sounds familiar, the militant Muslims have been following this path for a long time.
Am I right or am I misunderstanding you?

Johyn Welsford



Christians often make the claim that America is a Christian nation, but it's not, and it never was. Because the U.S. isn't a Christian nation, evangelical Christians in America aren't always free to exercise their faith as they see fit, can't display pictures of Jesus or the ten commandments in courthouses anymore, and often find themselves meeting strong opposition from non-Christians when any mention of the bible is made in public. So what is a good evangelical Christian American to do when confronted with the evils of such a godless nation as this? It's simple: form a true Christian nation.

Jews have Jerusalem, Muslims have Mecca, and Catholics have the Vatican, Christians too need their own homeland.

You probably wonder just where such a state could be located. The new Christian Nation should be in the place where it got it's start, the Mediterranean Sea. Greek is the language of the holy texts of the New Testament, and much of modern evangelical Christian doctrine is based on the writings of the apostles Paul and Peter from the time they spent sailing between the communities of the eastern Mediterranean like Phillipi, Thessalonica, Ephesus, etc. In fact, Paul wrote about being shipwrecked on one of the islands off the shores of Greece. American evangelical Christians need to buy a couple Greek islands so that a real Christian Homeland can be formed. That is after all the birthplace of the modern religion and it's traditions. Some American evangelical Christians are even descendants of people who lived in or around those lands long ago. Now, I know most modern evangelicals can't trace their genealogy back 2000 years to persons or places with any certainty, but that's not really important, the Christian faith's roots and language are there, and that's enough.

Here's how the Christian homeland will be formed: first, buy land from the current owners. Preliminary estimates show about 90% of the land needed for the Christian Nation can be purchased from the Greek government. Next, send an open invitation to evangelical Christians throughout the U.S. and the rest of the world to come and settle the newly acquired homeland. After enough Christians come live in the homeland, declare independence from Greece, or any other power short of God himself. Now, there are some people who already live on these islands, but don't worry, they'll be offered citizenship in the CN if they want to stay and assimilate into the culture of the C.N. The Greek government will try to oppose the C.N. but the C.N. has plenty of money in the imaginary budget to arm it's citizens to defend the homeland against these foreign forces. Of course some of the previous residents won't be happy with the influx of newcomers, some may even want to start fights with the Christian government, but hey, the landowners make the rules, not the neighbors, if they don't like the C.N. they can go live on the S.W. corner of island #2 and leave the Christians alone. It will be necessary at first that all able bodied men who settle the homeland serve in the military, but after the islands are secured, and C.N. independence is accepted internationally, a year or two of service by the young people of the C.N. should be enough to sustain a robust defense force.

Make no mistake evangelicals, the C.N. will not come without birth pains. The road won't be easy, non-believers will try to stop the effort, and blood will be shed, but wasn't it written long ago that Christians will be persecuted for their belief in Jesus? Violent opposition to statehood will be the norm, not the exception, it's just God's will. Anti-Christians have make every attempt to remove God from America. They've tried to remove his name from the pledge of allegiance, the money, the courthouses, the schools, and they will oppose the formation of the C.N. too. Just remember that you are being persecuted for Jesus's sake as you carry the banner of the C.N. for the homeland. These anti-Christians are just pure evil of the worst kind. Take comfort in knowing that they will be smited by God for their evil deeds.

Some scoff when they hear this idea, saying a Christian Nation is nothing more than a violent land grab, and such a thing has never been done before in the history of the world. Well I say sure, the C.N. sounds like a far off dream now, but if enough American evangelicals contribute to the cause by sending money to the Christian American Political Action Committee, and write their congressman in support of the C.N., Christians can finally have a homeland to call their own, anti-Christians be damned.

nw_noob
06-05-2010, 06:38 PM
...Sounds familiar, the Israelis have been following this path for a long time.
Am I right or am I misunderstanding you?

Johyn Welsford

There, I fixed it... hope that clears things up.

Pugwash
06-05-2010, 06:51 PM
Although I appreciate the OP (:)), it did kind of sound familiar.

It didn't take much Google-fu to find this.



Regarding Mr. Wilder's discussion of “holy wars”, I do maintain that there is a distinct
discontinuity between Old Covenant and New Covenant when it comes to one national
physically and without provocation going out “to conquer nations and throwing them off
their land”. Of course Israel was a nation even while being a “special nation”. However it
does not fallow and cannot be show biblically that this would allow a group of
“Christians” (Calvinists/Reformed/neo-Puritan remember) to militarily take an existing
nation's territory. It is true that the overthrow of wicked, degenerate nations (then and
now) is from the hand of God. However the discontinuity we should see in scripture is
that the means God uses have changed. When He does so today He may well use another
nation (Christian or pagan) to accomplish it but he does not command in a “Positive” way
Christendom to do it. Surely if this were not so biblically (and I believe it is) then “we”
could begin gathering weapons and making battle plans now and in a relatively short time
“take” (literally!) a small, sparely populated nation (such as Belize in Central America
e.g.)..

http://www.contra-mundum.org/cm/features/13_homeland.pdf

Tristan
06-05-2010, 06:52 PM
Great idea, and because a lot of the Christians will come from the U.S. we can support their efforts no matter what they do.

BETTY-B
06-05-2010, 07:04 PM
Something like 15% of the population is Hispanic, growing all the time, and a huge majority of them are Christian.

But that number drops as they assimilate into the U.S. Wonderfully, they get college educations and realize just how ridiculous it is to believe in fairy tales.

purri
06-05-2010, 07:07 PM
Chuck,

"A messenger bearing unfortunate truths is never welcome". :D

sdowney717
06-05-2010, 07:19 PM
But that number drops as they assimilate into the U.S. Wonderfully, they get college educations and realize just how ridiculous it is to believe in fairy tales. All religions have zealous adherents not only Christians.
Belief in God(s) is everywhere you look. Are all these vast numbers of people of faith to be mocked for believing in Divinity and something that goes beyond what puny human senses can know?
I wonder how many devout atheists there are here.

Perhaps only Christians are fair game??

Mock Muhammadanism at your peril, but a true Christian should turn the other cheek. Buddhists are also fairly pacifist.

jbelow
06-05-2010, 07:19 PM
Let's see here...according to the CIA, 78.5% of Americans are Christian.

Sounds like a Christian Nation to me.

Didja know it was increasing? Yeah! Something like 15% of the population is Hispanic, growing all the time, and a huge majority of them are Christian.

Donn , I like to say we are a Nation of Christians . God promised Jews land but gave the Christians more freedom to roam. That 15% and growing population of Hispanics are not only majority Christian but also of the Catholic denomination.
Norm should love that fact. How many SamFs would be in that bunch?

paul oman
06-05-2010, 07:32 PM
It is not a Christian nation but a nation based upon Christian theory. There is a difference. Note that the Separation of Church and State was not to keep the church out of Gov. but rather to keep the Gov out of the Church....

Seems in most communities the Church as the place disputes were settled, etc. etc. To get the support of these communities for the new Country, the gov had to promise not to 'change' the way things were done in these communities - i.e. stay out the local way things were done.

We cannot hide our heritage.

jbelow
06-05-2010, 08:09 PM
It is not a Christian nation but a nation based upon Christian theory. There is a difference. Note that the Separation of Church and State was not to keep the church out of Gov. but rather to keep the Gov out of the Church....

Seems in most communities the Church as the place disputes were settled, etc. etc. To get the support of these communities for the new Country, the gov had to promise not to 'change' the way things were done in these communities - i.e. stay out the local way things were done.

We cannot hide our heritage.

paul oman; I agree. Religion is not so much a government matter but more of an individuals personal matter. America is not a theocracy. We cannot hide our heritage but we try.

WX
06-05-2010, 10:52 PM
I think I would rather a nation not based on any religion. If you want to set up a church, fine but Human rights laws take precedence over any religious doctrine and don't ask for tax breaks.

john welsford
06-06-2010, 01:20 AM
There, I fixed it... hope that clears things up.

Nope, it doesnt, you want to show everyone how much you hate, you do it with your own words and dont mess with mine.
I said Muslim, and while its only a small proportion of the total Muslim population, that small proportion of them is, next to some of the militant right wing christian groups, among the least tolerant of any different point of view I know of.
The Israelis for the most part dont mind other religious points of view, what they object to is people lobbing missiles loaded with explosives into their townships.
Whether those firing the missiles have a valid point or not is another totally different subject.
I'll say it again, you cannot have a free country without freedom of religious belief and what you propose would be as bad a dictatorship as any that has ever been.
John Welsford

Nanoose
06-06-2010, 01:27 AM
A dictatorship, or a theocracy?
Isn't the idea behind the CN no freedom of religious belief, i.e. yes, you are free to become a Christian (or not), but to come live in CN requires you first be a Christian...or perhaps I've misunderstood. I can see complications with the second and third generations....

For theological reasons, CN would never be a reality, but I don't think that's the point of the article.

skuthorp
06-06-2010, 01:29 AM
All religions have zealous adherents not only Christians.
Belief in God(s) is everywhere you look. Are all these vast numbers of people of faith to be mocked for believing in Divinity and something that goes beyond what puny human senses can know?
I wonder how many devout atheists there are here.

Perhaps only Christians are fair game??

Mock Muhammadanism at your peril, but a true Christian should turn the other cheek. Buddhists are also fairly pacifist.
That's an oxymoron, it doesn't apply. But then those of a religious bent seem to have trouble getting their heads around the concept of non-belief. There is nothing to be 'devout' about in spite of Hitchins and Dawkins. But then that's the joy of the argument isn't it? I have no problem in declaring all of 'em as frauds, fakes or delusions. But then that's only my personal opinion, as is every other athiests opinion. There is no dogma, no 'revealled truth' no priestly class to claim a franchise. Just plain, personal, unbelief.

Nanoose
06-06-2010, 01:31 AM
I think atheists are quite devout. They know God does not exist. Knowledge requires more certainty than uncertainty, i.e. a 'thick' belief, IMHO.

skuthorp
06-06-2010, 01:36 AM
You don't get it Nanoose, 'god' is just not on the radar. An inconsequence. It worries you more than me. But the basic difference is so large that a discussion can never be brought to a conclusion, but can be fun all the same.

Nanoose
06-06-2010, 01:41 AM
No, sku - evidently you're the one who doesn't get it. God doesn't worry me at all. :) Quite the opposite, actually - God delights me!

I realize 'god' isn't on an atheist's radar; I didn't state otherwise. In fact, because they are certain of 'god's' non-existence, I wouldn't be surprised that they never give him/her/it a thought.

skuthorp
06-06-2010, 01:45 AM
Congrat's Nanoose, that's as close as anyone has got to my personal position. Of course the next athiest on line may have a slightly different stance.
As a matter of interest, can I assume that your relationship to your God is a personal one? Not arbitrated by a set of rules or 'dogma'? Or are you one who follows a predetermined line dictated by a Church?

John P Lebens
06-06-2010, 01:51 AM
Maybe we can sell the Texas to the christians, pay down some of the debt and keep them from messing up the rest of the USA.

Nanoose
06-06-2010, 02:10 AM
As a matter of interest, can I assume that your relationship to your God is a personal one? Not arbitrated by a set of rules or 'dogma'? Or are you one who follows a predetermined line dictated by a Church?

I don't know how one can have an 'impersonal' relationship. Well....I do....relationships based on power, fear, intimidation, expediency, what have you....but the Judeo-Christian faith centers on a very personal God, and Christianity is about knowing God, about loving him with all heart, soul, mind and strength, about being in a personal relationship with him. So, my understanding is that 'Christian' is not possible (by definition) apart from being in a relationship of love with God.

purri
06-06-2010, 02:36 AM
^ C'mon, you gammon eh?

ChaseKenyon
06-06-2010, 04:10 AM
Purri

"A messenger bearing unfortunate truths is never welcome".


I believe Chucks reference to Andy Jackson was to the land grab of Cherokee lands he took upon himself as President. The Cherokee had helped him in Texas and helped to make him a war hero. There was no war with the Cherokee. The Cherokee were the most successful through hard work farmers and plantation owners in the south. He just wanted the land, the farms and especially the established plantations.

When he tried through channels to get the rich Cherokee lands and plantations they took it to the US Supreme court.
When the Cherokee won the Supreme court case to keep their lands and plantations Jackson had one comment. "The Supreme Court does not have an army I do". He then ignored the US Supreme court decision and sent the troops in to confiscate all Cherokee holdings. Just to get the lands. Lands incidentally that had been established farms and plantations for up to 200 years in the same family and were the best of the best in the south.

The us Army under the presidents personal direction went in and took folks prisoner in their own homes and sent them to concentration camps before sending them on the "Trail of Tears" with no supplies or clothing .

The best farms and plantations including black slaves, in GA, NC, KY, TN and parts of VA were then actioned off intact as working plantations pre-built with existing crop customers to the highest bidders or whoever was owed the most by Jackson himself.

If there is one and I ever meet him in hell I will send him to a deeper one.


In this case it is a bit different situation than in OZ.

At least to Cherokee, or as I prefer Tsalagi folks.

LeeG
06-06-2010, 04:34 AM
what an awful thing to do to Greece.

Chris Coose
06-06-2010, 06:34 AM
Google some of the christian nation trends over the past 20 years and you find that many of them got frustrated that the dybbya wouldn't turn it over to them and they threatened to remove themselves to places like S. carolina.
None of the domestic movements to isolate a location got going due to laziness and of course most were just broke anyways and it appears god didn't answer their prayers for holy land deliverance.
Now they are the Teabaggers.

Harbormaster
06-06-2010, 06:41 AM
Maybe we can sell the Texas to the christians, pay down some of the debt and keep them from messing up the rest of the USA.

Didn't the Libertarians try to convince everyone of them to move to New Hampshire to take over the state?

http://freestateproject.org/

McMike
06-06-2010, 07:41 AM
Let's see here...according to the CIA, 78.5% of Americans are Christian.

Sounds like a Christian Nation to me.

Didja know it was increasing? Yeah! Something like 15% of the population is Hispanic, growing all the time, and a huge majority of them are Christian.

So then I wonder why this country is so self-absorbed and imbued with this false sense of entitlement. If we were in fact a Christian nation, why are the morals of this country so bad? I've said it before, if the Christians in this country acted more like Jesus Christ we would be a far better country but instead we are a nation of greedy, childish, hypocrites.

This country is in fact made up of 65% "full of crap posers" (folks that I'd be happy to see move to Greece) and 13.5% "real deal Christians" (fine folks that I'd like to keep around). We are not a Christian nation in any reality past the lies most people tell to make themselves feel as if they are on the right side.

The other 21.5% . . . well that's another story and rant.

Captain Intrepid
06-06-2010, 11:48 AM
[The USA] is not a Christian nation but a nation based upon Christian theory.

Please, you're insulting my religion here. The US is many things, some good, some bad, but the one thing it isn't, is Christlike. Or am I wrong and the Bible actually reads "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, shoot him"?

Nanoose
06-06-2010, 11:52 AM
Being Christlike is not synonymous with 'based on Christian theory' (I'd substitute 'principles' for theory).

Captain Intrepid
06-06-2010, 12:01 PM
True, that was an imprecise term. Perhaps "the one thing is doesn't do is widely practice Christian principles" would be better, though not nearly as pithy.

ThomNC
06-06-2010, 01:13 PM
Donn , I like to say we are a Nation of Christians . God promised Jews land but gave the Christians more freedom to roam. That 15% and growing population of Hispanics are not only majority Christian but also of the Catholic denomination.
Norm should love that fact. How many SamFs would be in that bunch?

SamF is sui generis

thom

nw_noob
06-07-2010, 12:15 PM
Nope, it doesnt, you want to show everyone how much you hate, you do it with your own words and dont mess with mine.
I said Muslim, and while its only a small proportion of the total Muslim population, that small proportion of them is, next to some of the militant right wing christian groups, among the least tolerant of any different point of view I know of.
The Israelis for the most part dont mind other religious points of view, what they object to is people lobbing missiles loaded with explosives into their townships.
Whether those firing the missiles have a valid point or not is another totally different subject.
I'll say it again, you cannot have a free country without freedom of religious belief and what you propose would be as bad a dictatorship as any that has ever been.
John Welsford

John, you have either completely ignored the point of the post, or are so blinded by your preconceived ideology that you cannot see it.

The article was written tongue in cheek as a parallel to the creation of the state of Israel. When the actors involved are changed and the setting is 2010 the idea of a new country being formed by a religious group sounds preposterous to most people, yourself included. I wrote that anyone who opposes this fictional new state is an evil anti-Christian, it only took you two posts to accuse me of being an anti-Semite. Don't you think there might be something wrong with painting people with such a broad brush?

Captain Blight
06-07-2010, 12:26 PM
Mr Welsford's brain is seething with the creation of a 19' version of Navigator. Right? PLEASE TELL ME I'M RIGHT!!

Well, even if that's not what's on the boil, perhaps we could cut the fella a little slack here.

Ethan
06-07-2010, 12:36 PM
Hehehehe... didn't I tell ya that it would sail right over the heads of 9 out of 10 people here? :):):)

Why are you here again? :rolleyes: To be rude? Ridicule is not an intellectually honest way to challenge your beliefs. Or those of anyone else.

But, then again, if pseudo-intellectual snobbery is your aim....

nw_noob
06-07-2010, 12:39 PM
Sadly, you were right Norman. I've got nothing against John either C.B... I just take exception to being accused of "showing people how much I hate."

Ethan
06-07-2010, 12:48 PM
...and this comes from a guy who hasn't contributed ANYTHING to the thread? Hmmm.. I think I'd describe someone who comes into a thread for the sole purpose of disparaging a participant might be justifiably accused of 'psuedo-intellectual snobbery', himself....

Riiiiight. Does that make you feel better for your bad manners?
And I have contributed - I've pointed out your hypocrisy and bias. But I bet that'll go over your head 9 out of 10 times.

BTW, Norman Bernstein doesn't get to judge contributed v. non-contributed around here. You're just not that important.

But, please, by all means carry on defecating in this forum since you seem to regard it as your personal political litterbox.

blindbrook
06-07-2010, 01:49 PM
Off the top of my head, I wonder if John doesn't raise some interesting issues that ought not be so quickly dismissed. The geography of the mideast was in many cases an arbitrary execise undertaken by the British post WWI. While the thread's parable tries to make the post WWII decision to create a Jewish state seem crazy, it is removed from the context of the times. Perhaps a more interesting discussion might compare and contrast how religious freedom has evolved within all these arbitraily constructed nations.
As to Andy Jackson, thanks for reminder of the evils of populism.

Osborne Russell
06-07-2010, 03:53 PM
A dictatorship, or a theocracy?

What's the diff? As I take to be Mr. Welsford's point.

Isn't the idea behind the CN no freedom of religious belief, i.e. yes, you are free to become a Christian (or not), but to come live in CN requires you first be a Christian...or perhaps I've misunderstood. I can see complications with the second and third generations....


For theological reasons, CN would never be a reality, but I don't think that's the point of the article.

1. The idea is more useful for its intended purpose, i.e. to agitate the rabble, if it never becomes real, for then it may agitate the rabble perpetually.

2. Any theological or even logical problems haven't slowed them since at least 1492, why would they now?

Osborne Russell
06-07-2010, 03:58 PM
Let's see here...according to the CIA, 78.5% of Americans are Christian.

Sounds like a Christian Nation to me.

Yeah. If you can lull them to sleep with a narrow definition, why then when the time is right you just re-inflate it and slip it in from behind. They'll squawk but it'll be too late.

The CIA is playing its part.

John Smith
06-07-2010, 04:54 PM
It is not a Christian nation but a nation based upon Christian theory. There is a difference. Note that the Separation of Church and State was not to keep the church out of Gov. but rather to keep the Gov out of the Church....

Seems in most communities the Church as the place disputes were settled, etc. etc. To get the support of these communities for the new Country, the gov had to promise not to 'change' the way things were done in these communities - i.e. stay out the local way things were done.

We cannot hide our heritage.
Like the Bibile itself, this is a matter of interpretation. The only people I know who believe this is a Christian nation are Christians. Certainly an unbiased opinion.

They believe this because they believe that man cannot hold values of "right" and "wrong" or be of honesty and integrity sans their religious beliefs.

If this were truly a Christian Nation, would any stores open on Sunday?

John Smith
06-07-2010, 05:01 PM
I think atheists are quite devout. They know God does not exist. Knowledge requires more certainty than uncertainty, i.e. a 'thick' belief, IMHO.

I think many people base their lives on their belief that God exists, but I've yet had anyone give a reasonable explanation as to why his existence matters.

I am not being trite when I point out that God allows people to swear in His name and ask for his help to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, then lie to a jury.

Seems to me his "being" serves no purpose.

I'm not being ridiculous when I ask why He would allow his representatives to molest innocent children; the children were not exercising free will.

I'd also add that being "Christian" enough to become a priest, or even a Pope, does not keep on honest, or a man of integrity.

So, what's the point?

john welsford
06-07-2010, 05:12 PM
Mr Welsford's brain is seething with the creation of a 19' version of Navigator. Right? PLEASE TELL ME I'M RIGHT!!

Well, even if that's not what's on the boil, perhaps we could cut the fella a little slack here.

Yes you are right, its called "Scout" . I've a number of jobs to complete though before I can convert the "roughs" into construction plans, and should really be getting on with that rather than arguing about religion and politics with people who feel that I have misinterpreted their point, and who certainly have missed the point that I was trying to make.

John Welsford

Glen Longino
06-07-2010, 05:26 PM
..."rather than arguing about religion and politics"...

No, no, Sir, you must continue to do both, argue religion/politics AND design them boats.
It's called multi-tasking!
All of us around this place do it.
Please don't forsake one obsession for the other.
Two obsessions are twice as good as one obsession!:)

Nanoose
06-07-2010, 06:10 PM
Norm - could you please tell me how you differentiate between Zionism and Judaism. Thx.

Nanoose
06-07-2010, 06:19 PM
The article was, of course, a cynical and sarcastic allegory aimed at the formation of the state of Israel.

But, I'm curious: what 'theological' reason would preclude a 'Christian Nation'?

1. I do not see in Jesus' life nor teachings grounds to argue for such a nation. He realized power - political, religious and economic - were not what God's kingdom are about (his temptation). He did not pursue his ends politically (he didn't 'take on' Rome). His followers are called to be salt and light where they are, not to leave society for the 'holy huddle.'

2. I do not see in the early church any such efforts.

3. Paul taught contra this idea - in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free - the goal is the unity in Christ by the presence of the Spirit within. Again, such a 'divisive' move ('you' are in; 'you' are out) is not scriptural.

4. God's kingdom is about reconciliation not segregation.

Those immediately come to mind....if I thought about it a bit, more may show up.

nw_noob
06-07-2010, 06:40 PM
... rather than arguing about religion and politics with people who feel that I have misinterpreted their point, and who certainly have missed the point that I was trying to make.

John Welsford

John, I didn't address your point because, well, I agree... a nation founded upon religious exclusion is inherently not a free society. When you tried to apply the article to what Muslims are doing, while neglecting the Israeli side, I spoke up, if that offended you, oops. As to your point about the Israelis tolerating other religions, sure they do now, but I don't think things were quite the same in the '50s. As for those guys lobbing missiles, as you pointed out, they have their own [debatable] justifications for that... kinda like some Greeks would have if a bunch of armed American Christians tried to take over a couple of their islands.

I posted what I hoped would be a thought provoking little essay, hopefully somebody who read it will think a little more critically about both sides of Israeli / Palestinian relations, and maybe avoid the knee-jerk reaction of calling everyone critical of Israel an anti-Semite. That is all.

Nanoose
06-07-2010, 06:45 PM
Zionism is a political movement that promotes Israel as a national 'homeland' for Jews. ... it was formed as a social and humanitarian movement in the late 1800's, but became a political movement in the 1910's. ... the notion of some sort of 'ancient right' to the land was NOT part of Zionism at its origins.

So, just to be sure I'm understanding, Zionism was originally a social and humanitarian movement with no focus on/concern for a return to the land of Israel - that came later (1910).

What the was the original point/focus/goal of Zionism? Why was the movement started in the first place?, and what happened to change the focus (e.g. strong personality at the helm?)?

nw_noob
06-07-2010, 06:47 PM
But, I'm curious: what 'theological' reason would preclude a 'Christian Nation'?

Oh, that was addressed in post #12, but what Pugwash failed to mention is that evangelical Christian doctrines need not be biblically supportable to be widely accepted.

Nanoose
06-07-2010, 06:48 PM
I understand all that.... but it still remains a fact that many Christians support the notion of 'islands' of Christianity that exclude others....

Sure - your question was for theological reasons against such a movement. I'm not arguing that these things don't happen/exist, only that there is no basis in Christianity for them.

If you understand "all that", what was it you were asking (I obviously misunderstood and didn't answer your real question if you already knew the theological reasons again the idea/formation of a CN...also not sure, on that basis, of why you were asking)?

Nanoose
06-07-2010, 08:15 PM
Yes - it would seem Jerusalem is rather significant for Judaism. Would you say rebuilding the temple is part of this?

Interesting how you understood what I said in terms of no theological objection or no theological imperatives re a CN. My view is that theo.obj. against it do exist.

john welsford
06-08-2010, 04:01 AM
John, I didn't address your point because, well, I agree... a nation founded upon religious exclusion is inherently not a free society. When you tried to apply the article to what Muslims are doing, while neglecting the Israeli side, I spoke up, if that offended you, oops. As to your point about the Israelis tolerating other religions, sure they do now, but I don't think things were quite the same in the '50s. As for those guys lobbing missiles, as you pointed out, they have their own [debatable] justifications for that... kinda like some Greeks would have if a bunch of armed American Christians tried to take over a couple of their islands.

I posted what I hoped would be a thought provoking little essay, hopefully somebody who read it will think a little more critically about both sides of Israeli / Palestinian relations, and maybe avoid the knee-jerk reaction of calling everyone critical of Israel an anti-Semite. That is all.

Thank you for that. I dont agree with either side in that conflict, unless there is major changes in attitude on both sides I cannot see a resolution to the problem.
I probably over reacted, I dont like churches, but think that everyone should have a set of beliefs that shape and direct their lives and gives them purpose, and that could be called religion. But one of my strongest beliefs of all is along the same lines as the guy who said something like " I will fight for your right to believe in your religion, but I'll fight you if you try to make me believe in yours".
As soon as a Church says that other religions are wrong, or untrue or should be punished, my hackles go up.

John Welsford

PeterSibley
06-08-2010, 04:16 AM
As soon as a Church says that other religions are wrong, or untrue or should be punished, my hackles go up.

John Welsford

Precisely , the arrogance is overwhelming .We are right .They are wrong !:(

Wouldn't it be good to hear a church ,rather than an isolated occasional cleric say , "we really don't know , perhaps they're right too ".Any cleric ,about any other .

varadero
06-08-2010, 04:39 AM
Quote. "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."
Steven Wienburg.

downthecreek
06-08-2010, 05:36 AM
1. I do not see in Jesus' life nor teachings grounds to argue for such a nation. He realized power - political, religious and economic - were not what God's kingdom are about (his temptation).

Your comments certainly reflect my own (heathen) interpretation of what I have read. I have always thought that the words "render unto Caesar etc." were a clear indication of the separation between the heavenly and earthly kingdoms.

Maybe they are preternaturally wise words too. A Christian nation must needs be a "churchly" nation and churches do seem to go to the bad when they are too much involved with money and power. Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds.

And, in any case, whose version of God's will is to predominate? And what will be the position of dissenters? It doesn't bear thinking about.

Let us hope the lovely satire in the first posts stays just that.

Nanoose
06-08-2010, 10:39 AM
I honestly don't ever recall, during my formative years when I attended Hebrew School, any theological imperative to 'rebuild the temple'... it's not part of any Judaic lore I ever heard of (although perhaps the Orthodox and/or Hasidic traditions adhere to that concept).

It would make sense, as an essential aspect of the Jewish faith is the sacrifice, which needs the temple.

TomF
06-08-2010, 12:37 PM
Even during biblical times, we can read of the struggles which culminated in saying that sacrifice could only occur in the Jerusalem temple (there'd been other sites as well early on - e.g. Bethel). So once the Temple was destroyed, there was no legitimate place to perform the rituals. In response, the practices of the faith changed - especially during the diaspora - so that other rituals have come to connote faithfulness.

But presumably, if the temple were ever to be rebuilt on the Temple Mount, some would argue that the sacrifices should resume ... just as the other tenets of Torah need to be followed. Just as the eucharist is historically the "normative" ritual in the Christian community, the ritual was the "normative" ritual in biblical Judaism ... at least if you take Torah as the guide.

Osborne Russell
06-08-2010, 02:24 PM
1. I do not see in Jesus' life nor teachings grounds to argue for such a nation. He realized power - political, religious and economic - were not what God's kingdom are about (his temptation). He did not pursue his ends politically (he didn't 'take on' Rome). His followers are called to be salt and light where they are, not to leave society for the 'holy huddle.'

Yes but you're a foreigner. American Christianity is special. American Christianity is evangelical and that means political. A great deal of money and power is up for grabs. The task of theology is to rationalize the grabbing. Render unto America what is America's. America rallies to its calling.


President Bush has rallied America to its calling – to make the world safer and better. This calling is answered by a distinctly American internationalism that reflects the union of our values and our national interests. Americans everywhere are remaining faithful to that duty. By keeping our word and holding firm to our values, this generation is showing the world the power of liberty once again.

http://www.ohiogop.org/files/2004platform.pdf



Judeo-Christian Nation – As America is a nation under God founded on Judeo-Christian principles, we affirm the constitutional right of all individuals to worship in the religion of their choice.

Safeguarding Our Religious Liberties – We affirm that the public acknowledgment of God is undeniable in our history and is vital to our freedom, prosperity and strength. We pledge our influence toward a return to the original intent of the First Amendment and toward dispelling the myth of separation of church and state.

http://www.1888932-2946.ws/TexasGOP/E-ContentStrategy/userfiles/FINAL_2008_PLATFORM.pdf

Michael D. Storey
06-08-2010, 02:27 PM
Great post, noob. Too bad it will sail right over the heads of 9 out of 10 people who read it.


That would be known as a Linda Ronstadt, as in 'it just blew by you...'

Nanoose
06-08-2010, 02:52 PM
American Christianity is evangelical and that means political.

Can we rephrase this?
Not all American Christianity is evangelical.
Evangelical doesn't mean political.
American evangelical means political, yes (unfortunately).

Kaa
06-08-2010, 03:59 PM
I honestly don't ever recall, during my formative years when I attended Hebrew School, any theological imperative to 'rebuild the temple'... it's not part of any Judaic lore I ever heard of (although perhaps the Orthodox and/or Hasidic traditions adhere to that concept).

The general idea is that the Temple will be rebuilt during the Messianic Age when the Messiah comes.

Kaa

Nanoose
06-08-2010, 05:07 PM
The general idea is that the Temple will be rebuilt during the Messianic Age when the Messiah comes.

Kaa

Really? Whose "general idea" is this?

Kaa
06-08-2010, 05:10 PM
Really? Whose "general idea" is this?

Will Wikipedia suffice? :-)


Since the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70, religious Jews have expressed their desire to see the building of a Third Temple on the Temple Mount. Prayer for this cause has been a formal part of the Jewish tradition of thrice daily Jewish prayer services. Though it remains unbuilt, the notion of and desire for a Third Temple is sacred in Judaism, particularly Orthodox Judaism, as an unrealized place of worship. The prophets in the Tanakh called for its construction, to be fulfilled in the Messianic era. ...

Orthodox Judaism believes in the rebuilding of a Third Temple (or Fourth Temple [Solomon's Temple, Zerubbabel's Temple, Herod's Temple]) and the resumption of sacrificial worship, although there is disagreement about how rebuilding should take place. Orthodox authorities generally believe that rebuilding should occur in the era of the Jewish Messiah at the hand of Divine Providence, although a minority position, following the opinion of Maimonides, holds that Jews should endeavor to rebuild the temple themselves, whenever possible.Kaa

WX
06-08-2010, 05:36 PM
So if you were to set up a Christian nation, what do you reckon the odds would be that in 4-5 years there would be a schism and or civil war?

Captain Intrepid
06-08-2010, 05:55 PM
So if you were to set up a Christian nation, what do you reckon the odds would be that in 4-5 years there would be a schism and or civil war?

A man was shipwrecked on an island replete with natural wonders, but remote from normal shipping lanes and any human activity. A couple years later, a ship finally passed and with a signal fire belching black smoke he managed to flag them down.

A group of sailors came ashore, and marvelled at the home he'd built for himself, but were puzzled at the fact that he'd built three huts. They asked him what they were for and he stated, "Oh, I live in the first, and I go to church in the second." "Yes," they replied, "but what's the third hut for?" "That," he replied with marked disdain, "is where I used to go to church."

WX
06-08-2010, 06:01 PM
A man was shipwrecked on an island replete with natural wonders, but remote from normal shipping lanes and any human activity. A couple years later, a ship finally passed and with a signal fire belching black smoke he managed to flag them down.

A group of sailors came ashore, and marvelled at the home he'd built for himself, but were puzzled at the fact that he'd built three huts. They asked him what they were for and he stated, "Oh, I live in the first, and I go to church in the second." "Yes," they replied, "but what's the third hut for?" "That," he replied with marked disdain, "is where I used to go to church."
ROTFLMAO! Oh so true.:D
Back in the late 70s the Krishnas' built a big temple near here. There are now at least 3 different sects with their own temples.

Osborne Russell
06-08-2010, 06:11 PM
Can we rephrase this?
Not all American Christianity is evangelical.

If it isn't American Christianity, then it's un-American, just kidding ha ha not really. Again quoting the GOP 2008 platform:


This calling is answered by a distinctly American internationalism that reflects the union of our values and our national interests.

See, it's internationalism because our interests are the same as our values. Our interests are national and our values are Christian, which makes us a Christian Nation, and so we go forth to practice a distinctly American internationalism. I guess you could re-phrase it like this: not A Christian Nation, but THE Christian Nation, as in, the only one. Because it's the only one that's American, kapish?


Evangelical doesn't mean political.
American evangelical means political, yes (unfortunately).

Evangelical does mean political.


If religion only related to the individual, and was a question between God and the conscience, it would not be wise, nor in my opinion equitable, for human authority to step in. But when religion is embodied into faction, and factions have objects to pursue, it will and must, more or less, become a question of power between them.

--- Edmund Burke, Speech on the Relief of the Protestant Dissenters

Osborne Russell
06-08-2010, 06:16 PM
"Yes," they replied, "but what's the third hut for?"

"That," he replied with marked disdain, "is where I used to go to church."

Now that's political! The old saying was, two is a conflict and three is politics. I guess this is a trinity type deal where the three are one except when they feel like arguing.

As Phillip Allen would say, they're both partisan, don't let 'em kid you.

Michael D. Storey
06-09-2010, 08:32 AM
I have a pic I took one year in Nova Scotia, from the water, of three churches on the edge of a Bay, all different styles, different colors, remarkably similar in size and heigth, all next to each other. Course, that was Nova Scotia.