Square Meter question

[Landrith]

I have gotten bitten by the square meter bug. I think its the Finnish video site. I sail a Windmill and narrow is good! I used to regularly capsize a Holder 12 monohull catboat. A 22 meter might not be too extravagant for midwest lakes but L F Herreshoff's 30 sqm Oriel has caught my eye. Which is better Oriel I or II and would either still meet the rules?

[ahp]

The only Oriel that I know of is (or was) at the Museum of Yachting in Newport RI. It is quite a lot of boat but could be single handed if the running rigging was rearranged.

How big is your lake? Perhaps a 22 Square Meter would be better. I have never sailed or seen a 22, but I have sailed Oriel. For that kind of decision perhaps a trip to Newport might be in order. Call the Museum first. They have a website.

[Rich VanValkenburg]

Here are some other good square meter sites-

www.sskf.se (http://www.sskf.se)
www.sk22.nu (http://www.sk22.nu)

[Landrith]

Rich

I see you are looking at the same sites I am. I can almost smell the artic summer wind coming over the pine forests and the Baltic freshining for a day's sail...

I am still up in the air about plans for a US 22 or 30 sq m. I may settle for a wood international star or old Etchell.

[Chris.]

I have a 22sq metre, and i think it could be good for your lake sailing. They are good to sail, brilliant upwind, and can be quite wet in a chop. Though don't get too many ideas about cruising. Accommodation is somewaht limited ....
Whether the boats you mention still comply wityh the rules may be academic - unless you are going to race against other sq m boats then it doesn't matter.
I have found that most of the Sydney sq m boats have been modified away from the rule in some way or another (sailplan, assymmetric spinnakers, bigger cabins etc).
For club racing and day sailing they are a very elegant solution. Single handing is difficult because most have running backstays, and the big overlapping genoas are a long way from self tacking! A crew of two is comfortable though.
Best of luck!

[lagspiller]

I just got in from a great run... smallest jib and still 8.4 knots on the GPS.
I regularly sail my 22 sq.m. single handed - even with the big genny, it is not a problem.

As far as the comment about size... a 22 is pretty much the same size as a 30 - or a 15 for that matter. They will generally all be between 30 and 40 ft.

Perhaps my site will be of some interest regarding the Sq.M. I have learned more since I wrote most of the text. My comments are based on the ORIGINAL international rule - not the present one of 1925.

Square Meter Sailboats (http://home.online.no/~tjohnson/index.html)

[Noah]

I also really want a 22sq. I posted a link about an Udell selling just before I was able to purchase it.

Link here: http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=004638

Anyway, I suppose the two drawbacks to most 22sq's are that they have pretty small cockpits and they don't have all that much sail area for light wind. Where I sail on lake Champlain we often race in under 10 knots. (Wednesday nights seem to be dead...) I know that you can use huge genoa's, but they aren't all that efficient, and it ends up back winding the main. When racing to a rating rule all of your sail area is taxed, so it can be tough to do well.

I'm very much looking for one of these boats to either restore or buy in good shape. I really wish the cockpit was bigger though.

Every few days I wake up dreaming about building one. Perhaps with a slightly more modern keel, and a big cockpit. Maybe even a balanced spade rudder...for a bit more performance. Cold Molded with Carbon Fiber? A real screamer...

[Norske3]

A pretty Swede....

http://www.sitecenter.dk/hbh/nss-folder/giliithepictures/ligner30kvm.jpg

[Boatmik]

I fell in love with square metre boats as a kid when I had just started sailing.

Wonderful the way they eat up to weather while heeling over dramatically.

I believe the International Dragon was designed to one of the square metre rules - some funny fraction - 19 1/2 or 21 1/2.

Boatmik

[Landrith]

I have been looking at Udells and Dragons (the ads at least, there are none locally in lakes or barns). They are both beautiful and practical in their own ways. I wonder why we don't have US Dragon fleets.

The light airs on Wednesday nights have been where my son and I with a crew weight of 500 lbs in the Windmill get our lunch money taken by MC Scows. I had car troubles Saturday during some building wind and had to launch him and leave. At 150 lbs he was keeping up with the C Scows until he had to run to the shelter of a cove. I think I am ready for a keel.

[lagspiller]

Some myths are pretty hardy, I guess. For example, the comment about small sail area is almost exactly the same thought Americans had about these boats in 1929...
Please excuse me for quoting from my own site, but this was too good to pass up:

" According to "Yachting" October 1929, genoas were not popular and were generally not in use in the USA. When one of the premier yacht clubs on the East Coast, the Corinthian Yacht Club of Marblehead, Mass. organized a series in 1928-29, the challenging teams from Sweden and Germany trashed the American fleet. American yachtsmen had expected the winds typical of the Baltic to produce undercanvassed boats and careful, reserved sailors. The same magazine reported, "The Americans learned a lot about new sails, such as genoa jibs [...] high-cut mainsails, and an enveloping spinnaker which the Swedes produced." One Swedish boat in the 1928-29 series was the first foreign boat ever to win every race in a series in American waters. The 30 Sq. Meter "Bacchant" of the Royal Swedish Yacht Club was sailed by Eric Lundberg. ("The Rudder" Oct. 1929) "

Come on.... does this look undercanvassed???
http://www.sskf.se/Matrikel/30bilder/30S106.jpg
Let me also add that the rule specifically states that the foretriangle is measured "to the mast"... This means that all foresail area PAST the mast is NOT included in the sail area measurement. That is exactly the reason why sq.meters have such extreme jibs. A 30 sq.meter will fly up to 150 sq.meters downwind and maybe 50 upwind.

It is easy to mix up the different rules. Meter yachts and Square Meter yachts are built to totally different rule concepts. You can't compare Dragon rules to Square Meter rules either.

While on the subject of the Dragon (which is a Norwegian design by the way)... I can hardly believe there is no US Dragon fleet. It was an Olympic class for years. There must be Dragons over there.

Other boats: You might also want to look at the Knarr, judging from the classes you mention. There are fleets in San Francisco and a number in the Great Lakes.
US 1 is one I could go for from the States. Or an Etchel. Yngling, Soling... there are lots of goodies out there.

[ 08-10-2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: lagspiller ]

[ahp]

You expect Americans to buy and keep a 10 meter or longer boat that doesn't have standing headroom, fore and aft staterooms, separate galley, salon, and enclosed head with shower? Surely you jest!

I have sailed a 30 Square Meter and loved it, but I am a very peculiar American.

[Norske3]

web page (http://www.intdragon.org/graphics/splashpage.jpg) .. :cool: .DRAGONS

[ 08-10-2005, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Norske3 ]

[Landrith]

This is the closest to a square meter boat in my neck of the woods. It is advertised in Good Old Boat. It looks like a Herreshoff interpretation of a 22 sq meter. http://www.goodoldboat.com/classifieds/LarryGillen.jpg
It's beautiful from the photos the owner sent me.

[lagspiller]

You expect Americans to buy and keep a 10 meter or longer boat that doesn't have standing headroom Hey, let's not pretend there in any practical use for a sailboat. And buying an old wooden sailboat is obvious insanity. Let's not kid ourselves. We are all nuts.

My boat has all the amenities of a wind tunnel. But then, I didn't buy it for sleeping.
So... yeah. I expect Americans or anyone else to spend large amounts of money and free time for a fast uncomfortable floating wind tunnel - if that is their particular form of madness.

Otherwise, I recommend a large bathtub and a warm quilt.