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Paul Pless
05-18-2010, 07:09 PM
Britain.

By some estimates: one closed circuit security camera per twelve people.

One recent official study by the U.K. government suggests that the cameras have shown no appreciable reduction of the crime rate.

SMARTINSEN
05-18-2010, 07:35 PM
That was one of the reason that Labo(u)r lost.

Canoez
05-18-2010, 08:50 PM
Speed cameras, security cameras, public CCTV cameras - they are everywhere in the UK.

I would agree that it doesn't prevent crime - there seems to be a problem with alcohol and this breeds violence - as it does in may places. Still, the cameras must help with the ability of the police to find the perpetrators after the fact.

purri
05-18-2010, 10:29 PM
Orwell was right.

WX
05-18-2010, 11:59 PM
On a few occasions here when the footage would have helped catch a crim, the camera was either out of action and had been for sometime, or video storage was so small the vital bit had been over written.
personally I would rather see more cops on the beat discouraging crime than video cameras recording the crime.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 02:15 AM
Today, Nick Clegg is going to announce a big Repeal Bill which will do away with a lot of Labour's police state apparatus.

It cannot come soon enough.

downthecreek
05-19-2010, 02:34 AM
Today, Nick Clegg is going to announce a big Repeal Bill which will do away with a lot of Labour's police state apparatus.

It cannot come soon enough.

Hear! Hear!

Although I'm not a Tory, I must say that it is very pleasant NOT to have to listen to the same old, same old voices saying the same old, same old things.........

Blair in 1997 felt like a breath of fresh air.....Hmmmmmm. Honeymoons don't last forever, but I'm a little more optimistic about the durability of the coalition now than I was last week. We'll see..... :)

Hard times a-coming, though - emergency budget soon. That'll learn us.

skuthorp
05-19-2010, 02:38 AM
Surveillance at that level is more likely to be used for social control than preventing, or even fighting crime. Computer recognition technology will ensure tis in the long run. And can you imagine a politician giving up some power, or the burocracy allowing him too? It'll be interesting to see what Clegg comes up with, and more to the point, how Labor will view it. BTW, which brother for the Labor leadership?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 02:43 AM
If an elected politician is ever going to give power away, it will be at the start of their elected term.

Labour can say what they like; they are out.

Either brother will do; many suspect that the younger is running as a spoiler for the left wing vote against the elder.

downthecreek
05-19-2010, 02:45 AM
It'll be interesting to see what Clegg comes up with, and more to the point, how Labor will view it. BTW, which brother for the Labor leadership?

Which brother? More likely David, I think. A lightweight.

Apropos of nothing, I heard a statement on a BBC radio discussion of the development of democracy yesterday.

"The current agony of America is the result of a federal republic trying to behave like a democracy."

Quite an interesting observation, I thought.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 03:38 AM
Yes, an excellent series, presented by Michael Portillo, who, having been the Demon of the Poll Tax twenty years ago, is well on the way to becoming a Living National Treasure*.

*second division, along with, say, Peter Bowles, as opposed to First Division, with the likes of Joanna Lumley

PeterSibley
05-19-2010, 03:39 AM
Exporting democracy too .:eek:

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
05-19-2010, 04:07 AM
So, what is our beloved leader going to say this afternoon?

The BBC is using the phrase - "since the Great Reform Act of 1832"!

skuthorp
05-19-2010, 04:15 AM
Maybe he'll disband MI5/6/7/??. (That should save some cash too)

"The BBC is using the phrase - "since the Great Reform Act of 1832"!"
Sounds like a promo!

TomF
05-19-2010, 07:39 AM
Is it at all likely that this great dismantling will include actual dismantling of some of the cameras? Or just a reduction in the rate of increase in the installation of more?

Remote surveillance is shocking to me - I hate it on the streets, and even more I hate it in the hallways of my kids' schools. An unconscionable invasion of privacy.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
05-19-2010, 07:46 AM
This is what he said .....

http://www.libdems.org.uk/latest_news_detail.aspx?pPK=2c639a58-0da9-40c2-9ea4-3ac96cc7daa3&title=New_Politics%3A_Nick_Clegg%27s_speech_on_con stitutional_reform


It includes this gem

And as we tear through the statute book, we’ll do something no government ever has:

We will ask you which laws you think should go.

Ignore the rather quaint punctuation.

Phillip Allen
05-19-2010, 07:47 AM
Is it at all likely that this great dismantling will include actual dismantling of some of the cameras? Or just a reduction in the rate of increase in the installation of more?

Remote surveillance is shocking to me - I hate it on the streets, and even more I hate it in the hallways of my kids' schools. An unconscionable invasion of privacy.

have you EVER known big government to be "conscionable"?

TomF
05-19-2010, 07:50 AM
have you EVER known big government to be "conscionable"?Damned infrequently, but yes.

mmd
05-19-2010, 08:30 AM
TomF, while I am not a fan of government intrusion in my private life - especially with public CCTV - I have to address your comment "...and even more I hate it in the hallways of my kids' schools." My wife is a high school teacher in a rural school that installed CCTV in the hallways and entrances of the school a few years ago. Since installation, incidents of vandalisim and bullying in the school have dropped significantly - certainly saving the school the cost of the system in repair bills - and has proved to be a valuable tool in helping the school administration in identifying the perpetrators of malicious deeds and providing proof for punitive action. In one particularly egregious act, three older students laid in wait for a younger one, assaulted him and pushed him down a flight of stairs resulting in a broken arm and minor contusions. All three maintained that they didn't do it, of course, and that the younger one had merely fallen down the steps by himself and was just trying to get them in trouble. Without any witnesses, it would have been another "he said/she said" situation and the school administration would have been handcuffed in their ability to act on the complaint. Unfortunately for the bullies, when the videotape was played for them (with their parents and the police present), the truth was readily apparent. They were removed from the school, and it is a better, safer, and more comfortable place thanks to the CCTV system.

So there lies the conundrum - how much surveillance is good for the common weal, and how much (and where) is too much? I don't have the answer to that, but I do know that it has made my wife's workplace safer and a more pleasant place to work.

TomF
05-19-2010, 08:39 AM
I hear you, mmd. And I agree that such cameras can provide exactly those benefits.

I'm much more aware of their rather subtle use for control. We don't see them used overly to stop bullying here - that still is stopped the old fashioned way ... parental complaint leads to action (or not), or the victim acts in a way to stop being a victim. Or, frankly, the bullying continues despite the cameras.

What I've been more aware of is how cameras are used as an excuse to enforce particular dress codes (no hat wearing, as it obscures camera angles for your face) etc.

I don't much doubt the influence on vandalism either - I'm sure the damage is reduced, and the perps more easily identified if someone actually bothers to go through the tapes. But a similar effect would come from just having teachers freed up to walk the halls more ... a "beat policeman" has a significant impact on crime, after all. And has the great advantage of being more likely to have a relationship with local residents, and to be there to actively help resolve the conflict, rather than prosecute it after the fact.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 09:07 AM
This is what he said .....

http://www.libdems.org.uk/latest_news_detail.aspx?pPK=2c639a58-0da9-40c2-9ea4-3ac96cc7daa3&title=New_Politics%3A_Nick_Clegg%27s_speech_on_con stitutional_reform




And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why I am a Liberal Democrat and why I did not want a coalition with Nulabor.

TomF
05-19-2010, 09:10 AM
And THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why I am a Liberal Democrat and why I did not want a coalition with Nulabor.Nice intentions in the speech, ACB. D'you think he's going to be able to make good on those various bullets?

skuthorp
05-19-2010, 09:18 AM
The biggest resistance, and danger will be from entrenched interests in law, policing and security organisations who will not like their private playpen being interfered with. Lists and recordings etc.may be outlawed but such organisations have a record in other places for hiding a copy away whatever the law. After all they regard any particular government as a temporary affair. Amongst all this the government will still have to allow for continuing internal terrorism dangers as I presume that Iraq and Afghanistan are still on the books. Not a straight foward job ACB.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 09:52 AM
There is a mixture of the immediately do-able (no ID cards) the quite possibly do-able and the pious wish. I predict that all of the first, some of the second and none of the third will get done.

Personally, I hope Nulabor's absurd anti-foxhunting law gets the chop as well.

TomF
05-19-2010, 09:55 AM
There is a mixture of the immediately do-able (no ID cards) the quite possibly do-able and the pious wish. I predict that all of the first, some of the second and none of the third will get done.

Personally, I hope Nulabor's absurd anti-foxhunting law gets the chop as well.Sounds about right.

As to the anti-foxhunting law, we'll see how the various campaigns stack up in terms of swaying the will of the people one way or another. I've got no dog in that fight (sorry!:D), but it's certainly a helluva tradition to be dispensed with.

How's the fox population, in the wake of the ban?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 10:07 AM
Most British foxes have the common sense to live in towns and rob dustbins, their country cousins are mostly getting shot.

downthecreek
05-19-2010, 10:15 AM
Most British foxes have the common sense to live in towns and rob dustbins, their country cousins are mostly getting shot.

Not so sure about that.....

Tha great majority of foxes are still country dwellers. If the number I see slinking about the hedgerows and crossing ahead of me as I drive around at night is anything to go by, they are thriving.

Came back from Harwich last week around 11 p.m. and spotted Mr. Reynard or his kin five times, just on that journey.

I was also surprised to see a muntjac deer skip past the front door of the Pier restaurant and back into the car park. Urban foxes are one thing, but urban muntjacs are quite another.

TomF
05-19-2010, 10:18 AM
Came back from Harwich last week around 11 p.m. and spotted Mr. Reynard or his kin five times, just on that journey. .Count your blessings - up here, it's moose. Cars tend to lose arguments with moose, which may be why we still hunt them.

Uncle Duke
05-19-2010, 10:18 AM
One problem is that those cameras are not foolproof - there are lots of ways to defeat them.
For the IR cameras you can build an IR "blinder", like here (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.oberwelt.de%2Fproject s%2F2008%2FFilo%2520art.htm&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8)...
Or you can use the very simple method of just blocking the lens:
http://gizmodo.com/5031411/security-camera-defeated-by-balloon
People who are serious about not getting caught won't get caught.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 10:21 AM
Not so sure about that.....

Tha great majority of foxes are still country dwellers. If the number I see slinking about the hedgerows and crossing ahead of me as I drive around at night is anything to go by, they are thriving.

Came back from Harwich last week around 11 p.m. and spotted Mr. Reynard or his kin five times, just on that journey.

I was also surprised to see a muntjac deer skip past the front door of the Pier restaurant and back into the car park. Urban foxes are one thing, but urban muntjacs are quite another.

We saw an urban muntjac in New Street, Woodbridge, a few weeks ago. Oversized rats, says I.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 10:24 AM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7127819.ece

The “black holes” that ministers have already unearthed include:
- A series of defence contracts signed shortly before the election, including a £13 billion tanker aircraft programme whose cost has “astonished and baffled” ministers.
- £420m of school building contracts, many targeting Labour marginals, signed off by Ed Balls, the former schools secretary, weeks before the general election was called.
- The troubled £1.2 billion “e-borders” IT project for the immigration service, which, sources say, is running even later and more over-budget than Labour ministers had admitted.
- A crisis in the student loans company where extra cash may be needed to prevent a repeat of last year’s failure to process tens of thousands of claims on time.
- The multi-billion-pound cost of decommissioning old nuclear power plants, which ministers claim has not been properly accounted for in Whitehall budgets.
- A £600m computer contract for the new personal pensions account scheme rushed through by Labour this year, which will still cost at least £25m even if it is cancelled.
Maude, who has been given the task of reducing Whitehall waste, insisted that ministers were not scaremongering to paint their predecessors in a negative light. He said there was widespread concern that Labour had become particularly spendthrift in the run-up to the election campaign.
“We put the last government on notice that contracts should not be signed without specific ministerial direction,” he said. “We are now seeking to find out what has been committed in the last few months.”
He hinted that the hidden “poison pills” could force the government to look at even more dramatic spending cuts than the ones already being envisaged. “It certainly doesn’t make the task of reducing the structural deficit any easier,” Maude said.
Willetts revealed that while Lord Mandelson, whose portfolio covered business, innovation and skills, had recently announced large cuts in the universities budget, little work had been done to plan exactly where the axe might fall.
“The outgoing Labour government left not so much an in-tray as a minefield,” Willetts said. “Issues that were left behind as too difficult to tackle by the previous regime are going to have to be dealt with.”
Gerald Howarth, the new Tory minister for defence procurement, disclosed that the financial pressures on the Ministry of Defence (MoD) were even graver than he had been expecting. “The appetite for new programmes exceeded the capacity of the MoD’s stomach, particularly in the run-up to the election,” he said. “In the past few months there was a rush of new orders. What we are going to have to do is ensure the equipment programme matches the military need.”
Defence sources say the military has been using the urgent operational requirement (UOR) to borrow money from the Treasury to fund equipment for Afghanistan that the MoD could not afford to buy. “They’ve been using the UOR system like a credit card,” one source said, “and they’ve been maxing out on the card to the point where they’re around £700m over the limit. It’s all got to be paid back.”

downthecreek
05-19-2010, 10:28 AM
We saw an urban muntjac in New Street, Woodbridge, a few weeks ago. Oversized rats, says I.

Or, possibly, oversized rabbits. It's that scut...... :)

David G
05-19-2010, 10:34 AM
Wait...

Great Britain is in Europe?

Do you Brits now - as it seems from this thread - accept this notion?

Security cameras have me talking to myself. I can see the advantages. I rail against the intrusion. In the end, I guess it's just one more symptom of Too Bloody Many People... crammed too close together... and the perversities that this condition breeds.

Dumah
05-19-2010, 10:37 AM
What an insidious thing to do to the general populace in ANY country is to encourage the use of wireless technology as a means to spy without any justification. I will not own a cell phone, I use the internet with extreme care, I feel no need to be "instantly" connected and have no faith that what I do on the net is "secure". My telephone is a landline and I can have a reasonable expectation of privacy as the law will not allow my phone to be tapped without a court order (read warrant). People that call me when I'm not available are able to leave a message, on my own machine not through a service, I feel no need or want of instant communication. I don't have anything to hide but my privacy, I do feel threatened by the readily available databases by any number of sources by the push of a button on a mobile. In the name of convienence we have been sold a bill of goods that bodes ill for society in general. Big brother is alive and malicious..............beware.

Cheers, Dumah
Halifax, NS

Kaa
05-19-2010, 10:38 AM
The telescreen received and transmitted simultaneously. Any sound that Winston made, above the level of a very low whisper, would be picked up by it, moreover, so long as he remained within the field of vision which the metal plaque commanded, he could be seen as well as heard. There was of course no way of knowing whether you were being watched at any given moment. How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in on any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to. You had to live -- did live, from habit that became instinct -- in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every movement scrutinized.
Kaa

downthecreek
05-19-2010, 10:42 AM
Wait...

Great Britain is in Europe?

Of course - an integral part of Europe since the beginning or recorded time and a member of the EU, in its earlier incarnation, since 1973.


Do you Brits now - as it seems from this thread - accept this notion?

Of course. "Brits" are no more homogeneous in our political views and preferences than Americans, however.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 10:46 AM
David - the Brits who are posting to this thread have always accepted it.

Over the past forty years, the Right and the Left of UK politics have both tried awfully hard to pretend that it ain't so. The Centre can be defined by its consistent pro-European-ness.

It was on this very issue that people like me left the Labour Party and formed the SDP - the Democrat in "Liberal Democrat" - in 198i.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_(UK)

(Anyone else here remember canvassing for Dick Taverne in 1973? Lime green favours stick in the memory!)

downthecreek
05-19-2010, 10:49 AM
What an insidious thing to do to the general populace in ANY country is to encourage the use of wireless technology as a means to spy without any justification.
Halifax, NS

Well, CCTV is one way of doing it, but I don't think your southern cousins have too much to be complacent about. I don't think the Patriot Act has been repealed.........

(At least our librarians aren't likely to peach on us :D)

downthecreek
05-19-2010, 10:52 AM
David - the Brits who are posting to this thread have always accepted it.



Yup! I am very pleased that the UK is a member of the European Union and also delighted to be a citizen of Europe.

Just for the record, however, the UK is not in the Eurozone - we retain our currency and do not use the Euro.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 10:54 AM
Northern Europe has a moose problem too, only our Swedish and Norwegian and Finnish friends call it an elk problem.

Sweden famously has a specific test for new cars called the elk swerve test, which the Mercedes A class famously failed, to vast embarrassment in Stuttgart!

Britain has a rapidly growing population of wild boars...

downthecreek
05-19-2010, 10:58 AM
Britain has a rapidly growing population of wild boars...

Is "boar" the generic name for these creatures? Are there both gentlemen and lady wild boars? Or are there also wild sows? (Provided by 'im upstairs, no doubt, as consorts and helpmeets for the wild boars)

Andrew Craig-Bennett
05-19-2010, 11:07 AM
I will consult the family wild boar expert, my eight year old son Charles, aka Asterix le Gallois, enthousiaste des sangliers.

Meanwhile here is the actual epicentre of British Pro-Europeanism, from the Wikipedia article on my personal political hero :

" Jenkins was educated at Abersychan County School (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Abersychan_Comprehensive_School), University College, Cardiff (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Cardiff_University), and at Balliol College, Oxford (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Balliol_College,_Oxford), where he was twice defeated for the Presidency of the Oxford Union (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Oxford_Union) but took First Class Honours (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/First_Class_Honours) in Politics, Philosophy and Economics (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Politics,_Philosophy_and_Economics) (PPE). His university colleagues included Tony Crosland (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Tony_Crosland), Denis Healey (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Denis_Healey), and Edward Heath (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Edward_Heath), and he became friends with all three, although he was never particularly close to Healey. During the Second World War (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Second_World_War) he served with the Royal Artillery (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Royal_Artillery) and then at Bletchley Park (http://forum.woodenboat.com/wiki/Bletchley_Park)"

Four grammar school boys at Bailliol.

Heath, whom I also knew and liked, had seen enough of 1930's Germany at close hand (in which he was almost unique in his generation) to wish to devote himself to making sure that it never, ever, happened again.

downthecreek
05-19-2010, 11:30 AM
I will consult the family wild boar expert, my eight year old son Charles, aka Asterix le Gallois, enthousiaste des sangliers.


Please tell Charles I shall be much obliged to him for any clarification he may be in a position to furnish......

Those worthies whom you cite - I wish we had more like them now.

switters
05-19-2010, 11:37 AM
Britain has a rapidly growing population of wild boars...

That is such a a set up, you aren't going to get upset if someone takes that phrase and has a little fun are you?

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
05-19-2010, 11:58 AM
..How's the fox population, in the wake of the ban?

Slightly worse off - at least that was the case in Scotland following their earlier introduction of a ban....

Bring back the Waterloo Cup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ahpSVVsGh4


Lets see how they get on with the 1991 water supply act....

downthecreek
05-19-2010, 12:33 PM
Bring back the Waterloo Cup.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ahpSVVsGh4


Makes me sick.

switters
05-19-2010, 03:12 PM
tiny deer

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
05-19-2010, 04:08 PM
Funny looking deer.
http://www.english-country-garden.com/a/i/animals/muntjac-1.jpg
Used to get them at the bottom of the garden - faster than a fit labrador, but not much faster.

switters
05-19-2010, 04:54 PM
well since you're google-fu is weak I'll fill you in.

They are native to england, cultivated by the hobbits from stag long ago so they could hunt something easily carried by a hobbit.

Munt was the stag breeder who was able over the centuries and with some help from Galadriel to shrink them down. Jac was midlle earth slang for snack.

The only problem is that they have tusks on the males and these tusks didn't shrink in proportion to the rest of the deers body. some tusks are 4-inches long and razor sharp, which makes these deer illegal on streets of London.

If they dont think you can see them they run up behind unsuspecting persons and hamstring them with their tusks. That is why AC-B was swerving to hit one, because it is illegal to own guns england. The only thing they can deer hunt with is automobiles.

switters
05-19-2010, 05:51 PM
Switters. I could have Googled it. I could have looked it up in my Websters Unabridged. I often prefer to hear the story from a person. When you do that you hear all manner of things not on Google, like them showing up at the bottom of the garden and being faster than a fast Labrador, but not much.

I'm rebelling against the instant expert Google makes of us. I want stories, not just facts.

Funniest story I've told in some time, but I've had more than one wife remark that I'm the only one who thinks I'm funny.

Sorry, nothing I wrote about the deer was true, except for the part about hunting them with auto....













sorry that's not true either.

Phillip Allen
05-19-2010, 06:11 PM
the English have taken starlings and sparrows to America, rabbits and cats to Austrailia, rats to kill out the Dodos and kudzu to the entire earth and, not satisfied with that distruction, decided to shoot themselves in the head with rat-deer

and they don't want the rest of the world to have knives or guns...what's wrong with this picture?

leikec
05-19-2010, 06:19 PM
Here in America we have a huge problem with boors....

Jeff C

purri
05-19-2010, 06:32 PM
AFAIK since the 70's(?) any radio telecomms routed through satellites has been scanned by Cray type equipment utilising "key word" intercept principles.

Chuck should have the gos on it.

WX
05-19-2010, 06:38 PM
We stupidly gave the US permission to scan all of our telecommunications.

B_B
05-19-2010, 06:45 PM
We stupidly gave the US permission to scan all of our telecommunications.
Merely a formality, they'da done it anyway.
Kinda like how we 'give' permission for them to use the Northwest Passage...better to do it and save 'face' than to deny permission and have them do it anyway.

skuthorp
05-19-2010, 06:49 PM
We stupidly gave the US permission to scan all of our telecommunications.

It wasn't so much a stupid decision as a deliberate one by one of a succession of a**licking PM's who could concievably be charged with treason. We're just a satrapy of the US in so many ways, and before that GB. I wonder when inevitably China becomes the dominant power if we'll afford them the same privelige.

skuthorp
05-19-2010, 06:50 PM
Here in America we have a huge problem with boors....

Jeff C
And yes, we suffer from thee same affliction too.

Phillip Allen
05-19-2010, 06:50 PM
Here in America we have a huge problem with boors....

Jeff C

I thought that was South Africa

bucheron
05-19-2010, 06:50 PM
the English have taken starlings and sparrows to America, rabbits and cats to Austrailia, rats to kill out the Dodos and kudzu to the entire earth and, not satisfied with that distruction, decided to shoot themselves in the head with rat-deer

and they don't want the rest of the world to have knives or guns...what's wrong with this picture?

Now if those English had been kept under close video surveillance at the time, the problem may have been greatly mitigated.

Just to get back on topic.

Kaa
05-19-2010, 07:18 PM
AFAIK since the 70's(?) any radio telecomms routed through satellites has been scanned by Cray type equipment utilising "key word" intercept principles.

The word you're looking for is Echelon.

Kaa

switters
05-20-2010, 08:40 AM
We stupidly gave the US permission to scan all of our telecommunications.

but we still don't understand what you are saying.;)