Dory design, construction, performance

[Daniel Noyes]

Discussion:

general history, "the invention of the dory"...
Dorys have been built along the banks of the Merrimack River since the 1790's, Shop oral history at Lowells boat shop credits the shop founder Simeon Lowell as the inventor of the dory, and the dory is said to be a development of the local Merrimac Wherries used on the river at that time. tradition said the first dories were similar to the swampscott type with the Banks dory being a later simplification for cheaper and quicker construction for use in the big boat fisheries. The Wherry is a colonial type with a single wide plank bottom. The bottom plank could be quite wide, the story is that Simeon had a misshap in his tippy wherry and decided to build a boat with a wider bottom, Wherries persisted in use to the north on the Piscataqua river untill the end of the age of sail. Unfortunately the patterns for that first Wherry Simeon modified were said to have been destroyed in the 1920's.
Also of interest Simeons brother was part of a company that traveled to Champlain during the revolutionary war to build a flotilla of Bateaux for use by the continental army, it is likely he returned with some ideas on mass production and simplicity and speed of Bateaux building.

geography really is important in the dory story, take a munite to mapquest Swampscott, Marblehead, Nahant, Gloucester and Merrimack River These are the home waters of the first recorded "Dorys"

a note to someone interested in what a dory is... just a start:

The North Shore of Massachusetts from Boston to Newhampshire is the epicenter of historic Dory building. These flat bottomed wooden sea boats were developed in this area during the late 1700's and in concert with their mother ships (the famous Gloucester type fishing schooners) formed the back bone of the Newengland fisheries, the most productive in the world at that time.
Along the banks of the Merrimack river alone over 200 small shops were building dorys. Lowells shop of Amesbury Ma employed 70 wood workers and was producing about 2000 wooden dories a year, one employees full time job was sharpening hand tools.
The dory was developed into a all purpose recreational boat by the early 1900's and by 1950 more dories were being built for pleasure use than as working craft.
The building methods still in use in some of our local dory shops are straight out of the early 1800's and before. Tools are relatively simple and limited and the construction is a process, each pice and step building off the previous to result in a strong, and shapely boat capable of withstanding the Atlantic ocean. With the advent of fiberglass and aluminum boats the working dory has entirely disapeared, but there is call from time to time for small recreational craft of dory construction.


A short over view of traditional dory building methods I wrote up a couple yrs. ago. Shape and design methods they relate to dory building... lines drawings, offet tables etc. were never part of traditional dory building, the hull shape was developed by the planks and patters as the boat was built.

Dory Built
Ancient methods, Modern materials

The following is a description of the methods and materials I use to build the Ipswich Bay 18’ sailing Dory and others.

The sailing dory has a long tradition here on Massachusetts’ North Shore. Originally used as working boats; dories are simple, practical, seaworthy and fast. The dory is a light displacement hull and when designed for sail it is always fitted with a centerboard and trunk. The wonderful performance of the dory has long made it a favorite with local pleasure sailers. The light weight, simple rig and ability to carry several passengers make a dory the ideal trailer sailer or camp cruiser.

Summary of dory built method used to build Ipswich Bay 18 footer.


No full size lofting, shape and rocker of bottom dictate shape of hull.
Hull assembled right side up.
Bottom assembled, measured, batten marked, cut out and bent to specific rocker profile on strong back.
Hull moulds aligned in relation to edge of cut bottom (no lofting used to determine hull shape).
Garboard plank edge-nailed into bottom.
Sheer plank, batten marked and cut to shape.
Trim pieces and deck layout typical of North Shore Massachusetts sailing dory (Town Class layout).
Low “leg-o-mutton” sail plan, solid spruce spars.
Also of note:
Batten and Pattern.
There are many ways to build a boat, many ways to create the “shape” of a dory, however there is one general method with roots deep in the past, hundreds of years of repetition and refinement, skills and solutions. Historically a dory is not built from a set of plans but from a set of patterns and battens. No full size lofting is used in the construction of a strong, light, fair and shapely dory hull. Rather a few simple measurements, a fair batten and a well maintained set of patterns have long been the standard of excellence in the dory shops on Massachusetts’ north shore.

Battens
A good quality batten is essential to building a fair dory hull. The component that determines the shape of a dory is its bottom and what determines the bottom shape is a good stiff batten and the builders eye. Do not use too thin a batten, it will be like http://dansdories.googlepages.com (http://dansdories.googlepages.com/) Copy Right, Daniel Noyes 2007
wet spaghetti taking a kink rather than bending nicely. Next be sure to sight along your bent batten from many angles before striking any line. The batten is also used to check and mark the sheer. After the temporary moulds are in place that will form the dory’s sides a batten is run along the sheer to see that all the moulds are fair at the sheer. A dory builder lets his batten have the final say, as long as the batten runs within a half inch of your breadth marks it is good. Most importantly the line you strike is fair.

Patterns
“But I only want to build one dory, to use with family and friends at the lake or on the bay, I’m not interested in going into production, why make a pattern?” The answer is at the heart of dory design. The pattern driven design is what makes a dory so simple to build and so seaworthy in rough water, it is what gives the dory it’s incredible sailing abilities and ties it to an ancient boat building method used to design even galleons and ships of exploration. The form of a dory is closely related to the system called “whole moulding” used to design ships large and small in the 15th and 16th centuries. Whole moulding is similar in concept to the modern idea of “Constant Camber”. Whole moulding uses a single set of moulds, varying their width and height above the keel to shape a seaworthy and streamlined hull. The shaping of a dory is very similar. A dory can use a single set of frame or just a couple at most, patterns for all frames, stem to stern. The hull form of the dory is not created by the changing shape of frames but by the rising and narrowing of it’s bottom from amidships fore and aft and by the lay of it's plank lines as each is hung on the hull. So, to answer the question why make a pattern, if you cut out one half-frame pattern you will simply trace that pattern to all you’re framing stock and produce all your frames. Surely a huge savings compared to lofting each frame set.


Dory frames and how the cut bottom shape affects hull shape in the building process:
The Dory bottom with frames attached is called "the skillet"
When building a traditional dory first the bottom is cleated together and cut to shape with a batten and three to four width measurements along the center line. The bottom's edge is beveled, then the frames are positioned on the bottom with a pre determined fore and aft spacing. The width of the frames is not pre determined by any set measurements rather it is determined by the necessity that the garboard lay tight against the edge of the unique bottom of the dory under construction (every dory bottom is a tiny bit different). A metal straight edge is held where the garboard will lie, against the flat of the frame, and dropped down so it just touches the top edge of the cut out bottom. The frame is made up of two identical pices one on port and one on the starboard. feet of the frame over lap, one just ahead of the other, on the bottom of the dory and are nailed to the bottom and to each other. The two frame halves have no set width, the width of each frame is determined by the unique width of that particular dory bottom at the position where the frame is attached.

... more later

[Ian McColgin]

Well, start with what dory?? The charactoristics of the banks dory shape, the swampscott shape, and the light Glouster Gull shape are so profoundly different that these are three vastly different conversations.

[James McMullen]

So true, Ian. The essentially round-bottomed, multi-chine shape of the fully evolved Swampscott type shares merely vestigial remnant elements with the simple slab-sided Banks Dory, and an ultra-light, sheet-plywood modern rowing dory like the Gloucester Gull is extremely different from either of these. I think it will be important to clearly define just which sort of dory you mean because "dory" has become a fairly non-specific catch-all term for some quite divergent boat types. A Rogue River Driftboat, a Calkins Bartender and a Alpha-Beachcomber are all technically "dories", but they couldn't be much more different in performance or purpose.

Perhaps the discussion is usefully broken down into separate parts such as when and where a single-chine hull with a flat bottom and flared sides is appropriate and desirable, the various methods by which such type of boat is most effectively assembled, and which sorts of dories are most suitable for which modern, recreational purpose.

My favorite is the Swampscott type.

[Canoeyawl]

Banks Dory,

A lovely hull form... nice to look at (except the stem is cut off)
Easy to stack and store a dozen or so
Easy to build
Incredibly tippy
Can't sail
A heavy, slow rowboat
Dangerous if overpowered
Can gather rain water at the dock like a funnel

[gibetheridge]

Here's an 18' x 4' dory I designed and built for my boy when he was 12 or so. It's stable, unless you're standing in the bow(s), fast (I can easily maintain 4 knots using 8' yellow cedar oars, faster with 2 rowers), and an eye catcher, especially when it's in the water. Can't take it anywhere without hearing "Oh, what a lovely "canoe".

Once it was built and proven I drew up the plans. You would do well to check the forms (the actual frames) for fair, I remember some minor corrections being necessary once it was set up. If anyone would like a set just PM me, I'll make copies and mail them to you.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4052/4479606753_c02db9a824.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/4609378400_97740a10c0.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3344/4609378922_aa3e095341.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1093/4609379494_509a15a5cd.jpg

Looks like they're clear enough that you can copy them right off of here, or maybe right off of my Flickr page. Would love to see pics if anyone should choose to build one. So far this is the only one in the world.

[Pateplumaboat]

The Dory is a fascinating boat with a long history. I just finished my Swampscott Dory in Austria (Design Iain Oughtred, Amberjack). Started to construct her in June last year and and was putting her into her element 2 weeks ago.
http://picasaweb.google.at/Pateplumaboat/BuildingPateplumaAmberjackSticklebackSwampscottDor yDesignIainOughtred?feat=directlink#

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_yaEpx5u2uyA/S8IpsmEYwAI/AAAAAAAABsA/yPczrsSu76M/s512/DSC00232.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_yaEpx5u2uyA/S8Ips8cBAnI/AAAAAAAABsE/2x37LFFmNRw/s512/DSC00238.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_yaEpx5u2uyA/S9xvA721eCI/AAAAAAAAB8Y/Gc43PbxP6pg/s640/DSC00631.JPG

Rows very nicely, but I will wait for warmer weather to sail her. First experience with 57 sqft spritsail was that force 5 wind was difficult for me to dominate her and I reefed. But with more practice I am sure that she will do fine even with stronger winds.

http://picasaweb.google.at/Pateplumaboat/BuildingPateplumaAmberjackSticklebackSwampscottDor yDesignIainOughtred?feat=directlink#54663661043035 97650

[TerryLL]

It always amazes me when posts appear here claiming dories are either fabulous boats, or incredibly dangerous boats. The entire class of hull form is so varied that any statement about dories in general is completely meaningless.

Even within the genre of the round-sided lapstrake hulls known as Swampscotts there is tremendous variation. So, let the discussion begin, but let's talk about a specific type of dory.

[Tom M.]

Seems like about half of the traditional small boat population in North America is considered a dory.

Some characteristics off the top of my head: Sawn widely spaced frames, flat bottom (but not always), a particular looking sheer, raked ends, flared topsides, and most important, its lineage can be traced to some simple dory ancestor. Pretty basic stuff that allows for intense variation.

[Hwyl]

Discussion:

... more later

Here's Dan's website, to give you a better idea


http://sites.google.com/site/dansdories/

[matoi]

http://picasaweb.google.at/Pateplumaboat/BuildingPateplumaAmberjackSticklebackSwampscottDor yDesignIainOughtred?feat=directlink#54663661043035 97650

Ausgezeichnet!!!

[gibetheridge]

What matoi said!

[perldog007]

I only know what I've read, zero experience with dories except the feeble wood butchering attempts to make parts for my Gloucester Light Dory... I am so amped because I have never had a nice rowboat under my oars. Old beat up aluminum outboard skiffs sans motors that make my Bolger Big Tortoise seem like a nice rowing boat....

I am fascinated by Gardner's Dory book and all the dory threads here ( I have better luck finding them with google )

[Clinton B Chase]

Dories. Oh, man. What a great subject. Where to start? I think one place to start is in the beginning, how they evolved from river running bateaus and how their plank-on-frame construction was dependent on the invention of the sawmill. My understanding of the history -- largely from reading the Gardner.Manning Dory Book -- is that the dory as we know it didn't really get started until large pines were able to be sawn into wide boards and made readily available. The straight planks (when laid flat) of the Bank Dory allowed it to be planked from wide boards such that only 3 boards were needed to plank a hull. Since there is very little curve cut into a Bank Dory strake -- the flare of the hull determining the sweep of the plank -- the planks could be got out of wide stock and very little was wasted. Hulls could be mass produced as was the case at many shops like Lowell's.

The Swampscott arose largely because of interest in sailing the boats. You can still have a fine boat to row, narrow waterline widths, but when heeled the round sided shape quickly gave the boat the secondary stability it needs to carry sail. Swampscotts are a little more work to build. The garboards, broad, and binder strakes have to have more shape cut into them because the sides are not straight, flared shapes, but rather have flare plus the rounded shape. Only on the sheer in a Swampscott is the strake fairly flat when laid out on stock.

I've always wondered: why the tombstone shape transom? Why are the ends of many traditional Swampscott dories nearly the same height above waterline? I suspect many attributes are hold overs from the old days.

I am particularly fascinated by the evolution from Swampscott to racing dory. I had to try to draw a dory a while ago, so drew one to have the belly of a racing dory but retain the traditional Swampscott look. So far so good. That boat is being built now in Portland, Maine.

---Clint Chase

[PeterSibley]

The Dory is a fascinating boat with a long history. I just finished my Swampscott Dory in Austria (Design Iain Oughtred, Amberjack). Started to construct her in June last year and and was putting her into her element 2 weeks ago.
http://picasaweb.google.at/Pateplumaboat/BuildingPateplumaAmberjackSticklebackSwampscottDor yDesignIainOughtred?feat=directlink#


Wow ! A lovely job !:)

[Jlaup]

Then there is Sam Crocker's Indian. Kind of a long way from the work boats of the 18th century. But 1) flat bottom, although significantly narrowed, 2)wide sawn frames, 3)almost round in cross section.

[perldog007]

I saw this boat and thought it was a flatiron or sharpie type skiff with a flat bottom for planing with an outboard. It serves as an address sign for a crab house now, due to it's location I am almost certain it was a working boat and so is it's owner. Interestingly enough, when I asked him about the boat he said "Oh you mean that dory?"

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww264/perldog007/IMG_1850.jpg

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww264/perldog007/IMG_1849.jpg

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww264/perldog007/IMG_1848.jpg

[James McMullen]

perldog, that's not in any way a dory except for maybe in the colloquial sense as a synonym for "rowboat". Words are not always used as precisely as perhaps they should.

[Pateplumaboat]

Dories. Oh, man. What a great subject. Where to start? ............
I've always wondered: why the tombstone shape transom?.......
---Clint Chase

On the tombstone shape transom: I think the reason for this is that the tombstone allows the easiest form of construction of a "double ender" (a boat where not only the stem is inclined but also the transom). It is easier to hang planks on a straight inclined transom compared to hang/fix/shape/cut planks to the stem (wich has in most cases a courved shape). In other words, historically the typical dory-transom allowed an econimic construction of a "double ender" which are known to be more seaworthy compared to boats with a vertical transom.

I hope this makes sense and regards from Austria,
Christian

[perldog007]

perldog, that's not in any way a dory except for maybe in the colloquial sense as a synonym for "rowboat". Words are not always used as precisely as perhaps they should.

In all fairness, here in the first state our aggregate I.Q. is only about two points lower than the national average, but our S.A.T. scores would have any self respecting third world dictator machine gunning his/her minister of education.

Still, I found it interesting that the crab boat skipper who has been around boats all his life called it a dory.

[TerryLL]

Another factor confusing the nomenclature of the dory-sharpie continuum is the method of construction. When building in solid wood, the bottom of the dory was laid fore-and-aft, while the sharpie bottom was cross-planked. This single distinction permitted quick and positive identification of each boat.

Plywood had now made it virtually impossible in some cases to look at a boat and definitively identify it as either a dory or sharpie.

[Clinton B Chase]

SOme argue that a dory is purely a name for HOW it is build -- like Dan explains above, from patterns and battens on a bottom. The Indian is very much a dory in that is was built frames set up on a bottom and faired.

It is very much an art form looked at this way. Iain Oughtred's dories are certainly dory looking but they are built much like a typical round bilged boat would be, upside down over some molds and frames, and the bottom is attached after the set up is faired.

Here is a link to Shane's dory he is building at Compass, the Deblois Street Dory. How much can the garboard and first broads be pushed out before you lose the classic Swampscott look? That is what I was testing when I drew this boat.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=106768&highlight=dory+hull+%231

[Daniel Noyes]

Clint interesting abotu the garboard angle, wht is it on the Deblois?
do you know how wide the garboard is? your right on about bottom/garboard angle. It's a especially big deal in a traditionally planked boat because the curvature and rocker of the bottom relative to the angle of the garboard direcly relates to the width of the plank necessary to get the garboard plank out of.
the wider the bottom, the more shape to it the more vertical the garboard plank must be, or... the wider the garboard plank must be.

Jlaup how wide is the Garboard plank on the Indian ?
The Indian has a very shallow angle between bottom and garboard, this shallow angle allows for exceptionally smooth water flow over the chine. The low plank angle also means the bottom must be kept relatively narrow, for a 22' dory, to reduce the necessary width of the Garboard... which is quite wide anyway.

[Daniel Noyes]

Interestingly enough, when I asked him about the boat he said "Oh you mean that dory?"

I wouldnt argue with someone about it, but as already been said...

no dory builder on the north shore of Mass would call it a dory, it's a flat iron skiff.
The word dory really spread far and wide during the 1940's and 50's

there's theCape Cod Dory co. built fiberglass keel sloops (nice boats)

[TerryLL]

...there's theCape Cod Dory co. built fiberglass keel sloops (nice boats)

Do you mean Cape Dory Yachts? I don't believe they ever made any claim that their designs were in any way based on the dory. Nor did the Dell Quay Dory (pictured below), which bears a striking resemblance to the Boston Whaler, though I know of no one in Boston who took them whaling. Names, just names.

http://yacht-photos.rightboat.com/boat-images/12061506/fletcher-brand-new-2009-dell-quay-dory-15-01.jpg

[Clinton B Chase]

The Deblois St Dory is less deadrise if you will. I don't know how much, but the gbd is flatter than on the Beachcomber. It made for some tricky drawing. My intention was to be able to carry a bit more sail and possibly have a faster boat without reducing rowing ability too much -- it is designed to be a tandem rowboat when you need to break out the oars.

I recall a day of really exciting sailing with Dan in his Beachcomber. At one point I recall looking back at quite an impressive stern wave from all the power we were putting into the boat.

One thing about dory bottoms I have noticed is that they are often wider forward than they are aft. This is true in the Hammond, the Alpha-Beach and others. I noticed this is not so much so on Gardner's modified hulls.

My thought was to keep the bottom wider aft since I wanted to be able to carry 90-105 SF of sail without overpowering the boat. It was also tricky on the D St D to keep the stern sharp and truly double ended AND have the hull full in the aft end at the same time.

[Clinton B Chase]

This was from last year...I love this picture.

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m463/clintonbchase/DoryandWherry.jpg

[TerryLL]

Clint,
What design is the blue boat. She looks very typical dory from midships aft, but the bow is unusual, especially at the forefoot. Not your typical Piscataqua wherry forefoot, nor typically dory.

[Clinton B Chase]

The blue boat is an Alpha-Beachcomber. Boat on right is a glass wherry.

The dory was built 6 or so years ago, maybe 7, at Compass Project with middle schoolers. The builder did a nice job with the sheer...a little more sheer than the Chamberlains I think.

[Jlaup]

Jlaup how wide is the Garboard plank on the Indian ?
The Indian has a very shallow angle between bottom and garboard, this shallow angle allows for exceptionally smooth water flow over the chine. The low plank angle also means the bottom must be kept relatively narrow, for a 22' dory, to reduce the necessary width of the Garboard... which is quite wide anyway.

Dan- The Indian Garboard is 19 inches at Frame 4 (widest point) It is also quite curved, so a single plank, solid garboard would need a 24" x 20' board!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3585/3985665018_d2193e5641.jpg

The angle is quite shallow from frame 3 aft. Wide bevels on the bottom plank.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4461290138_57b600e0c5.jpg

As you can see the bottom is very narrow.

[James McMullen]

This has evolved in sophistication to the point that it's truly a round-bottom boat. Here's a pic of another boat that has a very similar section, though coming from a completely different ancestor and tradition, the Shetland Yole. I think it's fascinating how they converge towards the same solution.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4072/4461290138_57b600e0c5.jpg

http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/38567/2871179010088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2871179010088484686RdNUil)

[johnw]

In all fairness, here in the first state our aggregate I.Q. is only about two points lower than the national average, but our S.A.T. scores would have any self respecting third world dictator machine gunning his/her minister of education.

Still, I found it interesting that the crab boat skipper who has been around boats all his life called it a dory.
Well, if the people on pilot schooners could call a lapstrake rowing boat a "canoe" I suppose some regional maritime culture could call a plywood skiff a "dory." Most of us think of that shape as a flatiron skiff.

[sailboy3]

Painted mine today...

[Jlaup]

TIMG First experience with 57 sqft spritsail was that force 5 wind was difficult for me to dominate her and I reefed. But with more practice I am sure that she will do fine even with stronger winds.



Never be afraid of reefing. I am reefed more often than not. Small craft reach hull speed in moderate breezes and the handling of the boat is greatly enhanced with the right (less) amount of sail up. Eating lunch is drier and less exciting, too.

[johnw]

If you think you should reef, you probably should have done it allready.

[perldog007]

Well, if the people on pilot schooners could call a lapstrake rowing boat a "canoe" I suppose some regional maritime culture could call a plywood skiff a "dory." Most of us think of that shape as a flatiron skiff.

I find that to be the case along most of the coast here ( which means the Delaware Bay in this context ) Towards Lewes and down the Atlantic coast of Delaware they say skiff or flattie, Closer to Philly/Wilmington I hear skiff, rowboat,etc.

Just seems to be a particular nomenclature along a portion of the Bay below the C&D Canal, a.k.a. 'Lower Slower Delaware' I think it's being used as a synonym for rowboat as well.

Back to 'real' dories, I hope to have my GLD on the water by season's end. These shorebillies will prolly call it a canoe.

[James McMullen]

Call it a canoe?!? That's when you learn them shorebillies in the ancient art of eku-jitsu!

http://www.ryukyueastasianmartialarts.com/oyata-eku-1.jpg

[BrianM]

Banks Dory,

A lovely hull form... nice to look at (except the stem is cut off)
Easy to stack and store a dozen or so
Easy to build
Incredibly tippy
Can't sail
A heavy, slow rowboat
Dangerous if overpowered
Can gather rain water at the dock like a funnel


Yep.. sailing is possible, but far from what it is good at. I've had pretty good and bad experiences in 2 different Bank Dorys as pulling boats, and I'm thinking it had much to do with the presence and absence of rocker.

[Daniel Noyes]

Dan- The Indian Garboard is 19 inches at Frame 4 (widest point) It is also quite curved, so a single plank, solid garboard would need a 24" x 20' board!


if memory serves isn't the Indian a 6 plank boat when built with traditional planking?
24 inches is far too wide for traditional plank garboard, you have what we called a double-wide at Lowells, garboard and plank 1 are combined in a single plywood garboard. we used them regularly on Amesbury skiffs.

The top edge of the garboard of most dories is very straight this brings the garboard high at the bow and stern and quite narrow amidships.
the planking of the Alpha is a straight line along the garboards top edge, cut on a circular saw as a plank or as plywood the edge of the sheet can be used.
the next planks bottom edge is also straight with a light bow on top edge, the next couple planks are lightly bowed with the greates bow just before the knuckleabout a 10" plank is needed, the first knuckle plank (plank #3) straightens out, and the sheer strake is nearly straight along the sheer with little to no sheer cut into the plank simply a straight line bowed to shape the angle and curvature creat the beautifull sheer line.

[Jlaup]

Dan-
You are correct. The cross-section at frame 4 shows the garboard as two planks. But not joined with a dory lap. The strake closest to the bottom is let into the frame full thickness and the 'second' garboard is laid directly on top of the first. I suspect that if built this way a dory lap would be cut forward of at least frame 2 (6 feet aft of the bow.)

You can just see it on the plan. It is clearer in the larger size, but the forum won't allow that big of a photo. So you'd have to go to the flicker site to see it clearly.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4349698156_2ceb134a5c.jpg
John

[Daniel Noyes]

One thing about dory bottoms I have noticed is that they are often wider forward than they are aft. This is true in the Hammond, the Alpha-Beach and others. I noticed this is not so much so on Gardner's modified hulls.

.

the bottom of the Alpha relly makes this obvious, the widest point of the bottom is about at the second frame...
keep in mind when these boats were designed and built.
Dories were being raced around Marblehead since the 1870's-80's
The Alpha was designed a built at the end of the age of sail and these old time ideas of what makes a fast sailing boat are very apparent in the design.

My ideas on the Alpha shape are that Chamberlain was lenghtening and straightening the run of the boat aft of amidships, I think this was an early effort to develop a hull shape capable of sailing faster than theoretical hull speed, her full bow lifts when pushed and the long rather straight run of her after body helps the boat leave a smoother wake, and not draw as much water behind her as a tighter tucked transom would.

The Alpha is still double ended on the bottom so ther's not really enough bearing to plane the boat but the straight lines aft fore shadow the imortance of straight lines to planeing hull sailboats

[Daniel Noyes]

Dan-
You are correct. The cross-section at frame 4 shows the garboard as two planks. But not joined with a dory lap. The strake closest to the bottom is let into the frame full thickness and the 'second' garboard is laid directly on top of the first. I suspect that if built this way a dory lap would be cut forward of at least frame 2 (6 feet aft of the bow.)

You can just see it on the plan. It is clearer in the larger size, but the forum won't allow that big of a photo. So you'd have to go to the flicker site to see it clearly.John

ok sure, I have a set of lines by Crocker for the Compass with a simmilar set up I think the garboard and 1 plank are carvel and the other strakes are laped, the boat also has a double bottom.
The Town Class uses cleates along the chines on the bottom will have enough thickness to fasten into.

[TerryLL]

Hey Dan,

I've got some questions about your Alpha-Beach regarding the rig, balance, hull weight, ballast, yada, yada. Next time I see your light on I'll be pestering you.

[Daniel Noyes]

I only know what I've read, zero experience with dories except the feeble wood butchering attempts to make parts for my Gloucester Light Dory... I am so amped because I have never had a nice rowboat under my oars. Old beat up aluminum outboard skiffs sans motors that make my Bolger Big Tortoise seem like a nice rowing boat....

I am fascinated by Gardner's Dory book and all the dory threads here ( I have better luck finding them with google )

any photos yet?
How far along are you on the GLD build? for a while I have thought how cool it would be to build a Gld with three planks laped like a Banks dory build.
I think the garboard would only need to be 12 +- inches

The gld is a great boat, very tidly almost like a canoe for initial stability, but nearly imposible to capsize and very seaworthy with experienced oarsman. we have three of these boats in the Rings Island Rowing Club, i have had it out in 6' chop at the Mouth of the merrimac, 30+' sailboats were putting their bows through the waves with water pouring off the fore decks and here I am loving the row and surfing along without shipping a drop of water, lots of fun.

[Daniel Noyes]

This has evolved in sophistication to the point that it's truly a round-bottom boat. Here's a pic of another boat that has a very similar section, though coming from a completely different ancestor and tradition, the Shetland Yole. I think it's fascinating how they converge towards the same solution.

The Narrow bottom of the Indian is an intermediate step in the evolution of the sailing dory, things were hapening fast and furious about the time of the Alpha, X dories, Indian and the Town Class.

Also interesting about the narrowing bottom as sailing dories developed toward racing boats... because the predecessor of the dory the Wherry is a relatively narrow bottomed boat with a wide single plank bottom.
I think the narrow bottom you are seeing on the Indian is really largely influenced by the width of planking available and the angle of garboard to bottom. It's a especially big deal in a traditionally planked boat because the curvature and rocker of the bottom relative to the angle of the garboard direcly relates to the width of the plank necessary to get the garboard plank out of.
the wider the bottom, the more shape to it the more vertical the garboard plank must be, or... the wider the garboard plank must be.
The Indian has a very shallow angle between bottom and garboard, this shallow angle allows for exceptionally smooth water flow over the chine. The low plank angle also means the bottom must be kept relatively narrow, for a 22' dory, to reduce the necessary width of the Garboard... which is quite wide anyway.

This is of interest because the next development and really the final form of the modern racing dory is also constrained by the need to maintain a buildable garboard plank width.
The Townie has the desireable low angle garboard to bottom transition but the Townie has a wide bottom and a relatively short bottom so there is not enough width in the garboard plank to bring the stern back in to a dory transom. The Townie uses a skiff stern to allow the bottom to stay wide at the transom.
The wide flat bottom and wide powerfull transom proved a winning combination allowing the Townie to plane when pushed
The Town Class out performed dories much larger than itself and has remained an actively sailed class along the North Shore of Mass to this day.

[TerryLL]

Dan,
I've watched all your videos and your Alpha-Beach sure seems to be a smart sailer. Can you tell me how the rig balances, how is the weather helm, and some words about shortening sail when the wind pipes up. I notice you generally sail with two or three, but how does she behave with just you aboard?

[Daniel Noyes]

Hey Dan,

I've got some questions about your Alpha-Beach regarding the rig, balance, hull weight, ballast, yada, yada. Next time I see your light on I'll be pestering you.

Alpha Dory rig info

I would suggest the John Gardner rig for the Alpha, I think it is a faster rig under a wide range of conditions than the rig I currently have in my Alpha

Gardner calls for a main sail 15 X 15' on a 16.5 ft mast
I sail a mainsail 18 x 18 on a mast almost 20'
the difference in sail area for the larger sail is almost 50% 100 vs 150+- ft
The reason I went with the larger rig is I do most of my sailing on Broad Sound vs. off Marblehead
broad sound is sheltered water with light summer wind off the land avg. 10-12 mph breeze most afternoons out of the south west.

Marblehead is open to the south west all the way to boston harbout and notorious for breaking choppy conditions and great sailing winds 20mph + most afternoons.

I have a three stay rig as opposed to gardners two stays and wire luff jib as foresail. The reason for the three wires is I do not step my mast through the seat so I need three wires to keep the mast up. I find the stays make raising the mast very easy, I hook up each side stay and push the mast up into position the side stays hold it inplace while I tighten the forestay with a rope and pulley to the bow eye. I can raise and lower the 20' mast with relative ease out on the water. with Gardners mast this would be such a simple task.

The boom on my rig is 18' long and only 1 1/4 " thick it is nearly as flexible as spagetti but the mainsheet rig distributes the pressures of the sail perfectly.
The long boom acts much like an adjustable back stay when sailing on the wind, the main sheet exerts a great deal of tension on the sail wich tightens the fore stay and jib when the dory is close hauled going up wind. off the wind where a little more shape to the jib is desireable the main sheet is eased and the jib allowed to fill out.

[Daniel Noyes]

Terry I have always had excited volunteer crew along so far when sailing... it's a nice problem to have, so have yet to sail single handed.

My rig being three ft. longer on the boom and carrying lots of extra area aft the boat has a pretty heavy weather helm, but carries the rudder quite close to amidships. the design calls for a single purchase pulley on the steering yoke and the weather helm makes for a very positive feel to the steering with the rope steering, simply ease the steering line and the boat comes up into the wind.
As far as reefing goes there is no reefing on the Gardner rig and I dont have reef points on my rig either, Reefing is actually very quick and easy and there fore encourages you to reef earlier and more often!
The reefs are

full sail 5-15 mph

main sail 15-25 mph just drop the jib and ballit up in the bow, ready to be raised again if the wind drops or even if you sail behind an island or bear off on a easier point of sail (very quick and simple)

jib 25+ drop the mainsail (more of a pain, but once the wind has hit these speeds your more interested in squareing things away and seamanship than really sailing any more so your pleasure sail is likely over anyway)

I can also bring the jib back to the mast and hank on sail slides and raise the jib up the mast, I have sailed this way very comfortably in 30+- mph winds and could go to higher wind speed
The Ballances is such that in heavy air with only the main sail up the rudder is carried about 8-10% off the center line. also in heavy wind I rake the mast aft slightly to give the shrouds a better staying angle as the mast is basically vertical when sailing in light to medium air.
here is video from small reach in 20 mph wind with main only
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab9O9xZECQc&feature=related

[TerryLL]

The conditions we have here on the lake are generally light, but there's always the possibility of afternoon squalls, so I need a rig that can be shortened down quickly. How is the Alpha rig for reefing?

Did you consider other rigs? Gardner states that the Alpha rig is not necessarily the best rig for the boat, but only that it is the rig most used when the class was at it's height. I would like a handier rig, but have never seen one drawn for that boat. Any suggestions?

[Daniel Noyes]

The conditions we have here on the lake are generally light, but there's always the possibility of afternoon squalls, so I need a rig that can be shortened down quickly. How is the Alpha rig for reefing?

Did you consider other rigs? Gardner states that the Alpha rig is not necessarily the best rig for the boat, but only that it is the rig most used when the class was at it's height. I would like a handier rig, but have never seen one drawn for that boat. Any suggestions?


I honestly cant immagine a more weatherly or handier rig, this leg o mutton sail can set almost board flat, puts lots of tension on the forestay to keep the jib tight and just steps to windward.
Also think about it, hundreds of dorymen keen on competition and seaworthy and handy small boats, developing these boats and rigs in tandem. The men sailing these boats had access to the latest technology and were exposed to lots of sail plans, this is Marblehead in the hey day of yachting, the biggest employer in town is Burgess manufacturing building flying machines, clipper ship building towns of Boston and Newburyport are just miles up and down the coast... this is silicon valley of maritime technologies in 1900!

In a squal condition I get the main sail down and in the boat and sail back under jib, see edits to post above...

The reefing is actually very quick and easy simply drop the Jib... no need to tie in reef points and re raise the sail and when it's time to shake out the reef simply raise the jib again... no need to lower the sail again and untie the reef points then raise the sail again!! Lowering the jib really takes a lot of power out of the rig far more than just the small amount of are of the jib, the slot effect has a lot to do with the jibs power.

[TerryLL]

I am a great believer in following the proven ways, and I'm very reluctant to mess with the design as drawn. But that big sail with its limited ability to shorten down really gives me the willies.

[Daniel Noyes]

I think you will feel very in controll with the Alpha rig.

As drawn by Gardner the main sail is 15' X 15' on a 21' boat..... a sunfish sail is 14' x 14' !

The leg o mutton is not like a sprit rig that tends to bag and grab more wind as a gust hits, the LOM will spill wind by raising the boom and allowing the sail to feather to the wind much like a modern marconi rig is good at efficiently spilling wind while still remaining in controll of the sail, this sail wont flog like a sprit can,
also see above edits about ease of reefing and effect of jib on total power in the rig.
The large main sail I have certainly requires a certain amount of courage and experiene but sure you would pick it up quick, I think the most detrimental affect of my big rig to handling is the extra weight aloft in the form of a taller and heavier mast. The Alpha is relatively narrow on the water line and I think the boat would be handier with the Shorter mast gardner drew.

there may be a happy medium in the Beachcomber rig, Gardner says the Beachcomber club used a slightly larger rig than the Alpha dory club, the Beachcomber main sail was 16x16'

[TerryLL]

OK, thanks Dan. I went back and read your edits. Watching your videos I did notice that you could spill the wind pretty effectively. I feel somewhat reassured. My preference is to build a boat that is as much a historical replica as possible in hull and rig.

[Daniel Noyes]

are you considering a plank build?...
time to make supper for Lauren, or at least get the egg drop soup she made last night warmed up, Ill check in tomorrow
Dan

[TerryLL]

are you considering a plank build?...
time to make supper for Lauren, or at least get the egg drop soup she made last night warmed up, Ill check in tomorrow
Dan

Nope. I'm strictly a ply-epoxy sort of guy. Old traditional designs and modern materials and construction. Not a purist.

[perldog007]

Terry, speaking of dories - your Cape Ann, was that a plywood build?

[TerryLL]

Terry, speaking of dories - your Cape Ann, was that a plywood build?

Yup. Framed in Doug fir and planked in fir marine ply. One inch bottom and 1/2-inch sides, all sheathed in FG. She was a stout thing.

[perldog007]

Yes I can see how that would be a handful to row, here I've been crying about 14' abused aluminium outboard skiffs under oars.

I am also having disturbing dreams of the Beachcomber Alpha, I want to get my GLD on the water as I have like zero experience in the kind of tidal waters I will be operating in. Would feel better puddling about in a rowboat for a while before bending a mast.

Also, the modified swampscott from 'Building Classic Small Craft' is appealing as most of it is one ply butt. I am trying to comprehend Oughtred's book, no matter which way I decide to go I will probably try to loft the modified swampscott after I finish my GLD. So far I have very little experience in lofting, I tried a 1/8 laydown of the 12'6" Swampscott Dory Tender in 'The Dory Book' it's almost recognizable....

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww264/perldog007/IMG_0802-1-1.jpg

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww264/perldog007/IMG_0801-1.jpg



There was one little error at the first station frame junction of the garboard/second strake ( I think) that completely messed me up so I want to loft that one for practice no matter what I build....

[TerryLL]

The Beachcomber-Alpha is disturbing my sleep as well. Don't whisper a word of this to the boys out in Puget Sound, but I do believe a true sail and oar boat is lurking on my horizon.

The modified 16 in BCSC was my first build back in the mid 70's. It's a five-plank hull, but can be done in 4 with minor adjustment. You might look at the Dion dory in the Dory Book. Same size boat but only three planks. The Oughtred John Dory is also three planks and goes together very easily. Don't fear scarfing planks, ain't nothin' to it after you know how.

[perldog007]

None of it truly scares me, but lack of confidence handling various tools and general ignorance of woodworking did cause me to go the Bolger Box route for my first home grown command, and same lack of experience was a huge factor in deciding to do a GLD next.

Being able to carry a couple of folks sounds really good on the one hand, on the other hand that 16'er looks like it would be much easier to singlehand, trailer, etc. I'll be able to figure it out after I get some oar time in, and do a laydown or two.

Speaking of which, a motorcycle accident ten years ago pretty much negates me getting on my knees to do a laydown, so I am going to use ply panels on sawhorses. Does anybody else like to get off the floor to loft smallish boats?

[TerryLL]

The floor is for the young. Forty somethings might get by nicely with good kneepads. But a nice level lofting bench at a comfortable working height is what the truly enlightened provide for their own lofting enjoyment. Don't deny yourself.

[Jlaup]

The floor is for the young. Forty somethings might get by nicely with good kneepads. But a nice level lofting bench at a comfortable working height is what the truly enlightened provide for their own lofting enjoyment. Don't deny yourself.

Or, perhaps, painted 1/4" ply nailed to the wall. Out of the way, always accessible, not walked on.

[TerryLL]

Or, perhaps, painted 1/4" ply nailed to the wall. Out of the way, always accessible, not walked on.

Did you loft it vertically? Those must be some very special spline weights.

On my last build, I put together the strongback frame first, then laid out three sheets of ply end-to-end on top of the frame, and lofted the boat there. I then stacked the three sheets against one wall where they were available as needed. The knees were happy.

[Jlaup]

I use nails or brads to hold the battens. Tracing vellum for molds. The paper's tendency to change size is not an issue for the short period between tracing and layout on stock.

[perldog007]

I guess at the old school boat shops there was no place to work but the 'lofting floor'. I just don't want to roll like that.

Speaking of that modified swampscott Terry, what do think of Gardner's assessment of it being able to carry 'six men' with ample freeboard?

900 pounds in a 16' double ender sounds extreme to me.

[gibetheridge]

My last lofting was done on a purpose built 16', white painted, inclined drafting table with a tray along the bottom edge for pencils, tapes, erasers etc., built against the wall of the shop. It was the best yet and no sore back or knees. Took it apart and stacked it against the wall when done, ready to re-paint and use again.

[perldog007]

I will most likely do another ibsld ( itty bitty scale lay down ) then get serious and do a full size laydown of the 12'6" or the 16' swampscott dory from Gardner's lines and offsets. First though, I have to get my U-Glue-It-2gether Gloucester Light Dory (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=114748) done.

Can Dan N. or anybody else speak to the kind of trailer one uses to haul a Beachcomber-Alpha? I am pretty ignorant on the subject of boat haulers ( among many other subjects...) Also, opinions on where one might most profitably spend time and cycles looking for such a trailer when trying to keep costs down are most welcome....

[TerryLL]

I guess at the old school boat shops there was no place to work but the 'lofting floor'. I just don't want to roll like that.

Speaking of that modified swampscott Terry, what do think of Gardner's assessment of it being able to carry 'six men' with ample freeboard?

900 pounds in a 16' double ender sounds extreme to me.

I have no doubt the boat would haul that much in very flat conditions without shipping water, but why would you want to? I preferred to sail mine alone or with just one other person. If you plan on hauling 900 pounds of people you will want a bigger boat.

[Daniel Noyes]

I guess at the old school boat shops there was no place to work but the 'lofting floor'. I just don't want to roll like that.

Speaking of that modified swampscott Terry, what do think of Gardner's assessment of it being able to carry 'six men' with ample freeboard?

900 pounds in a 16' double ender sounds extreme to me.

pearl did you catch my questions on your GLD build previous page?

There's a photo from a local kids camp of a 18' Swampscott dory with 18 kids aboard, one for every foot of boat!

lofting floor, no such thing in a traditional dory shop, at Lowells 5-10+- models were available and there were no lines drawings for any of the hulls... not in 200 yrs. they never botherd doing a scaled lines drawing.

I did not loft the Alpha conventionally but transfered half bredths for the bottom directly to the bottom planking and batten faired, then lofted the stem the transom and frame 1 and 2 from the bottom to the first knuckle and left the frame large above the first knuckle.
The boat is planked to plank #2 and then the knuckle is drawn in at the top edge of plank#2 where ever it falls on the frames (Garboard then #1 then #2) this way the top of plank #2 can be run fair with out concern for the location of pre cut frame knuckles... see how the boat faires it's self as it is built?

This is an ancient method of construction that does not rely on building jigs or accurate loftings of frame shapes. This method lets each skillet (assembled bottom and frame blanks) and set of planks determine the specific shape of the finished boat.

also did you catch my description of planking schedule in plywood and how the top edge of the previous ply plank can be used for the bottom edge of the next ply plank, cuts "spileing" time by more than half

[Daniel Noyes]

I will most likely do another ibsld ( itty bitty scale lay down ) then get serious and do a full size laydown of the 12'6" or the 16' swampscott dory from Gardner's lines and offsets. First though, I have to get my U-Glue-It-2gether Gloucester Light Dory (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=114748) done.

Can Dan N. or anybody else speak to the kind of trailer one uses to haul a Beachcomber-Alpha? I am pretty ignorant on the subject of boat haulers ( among many other subjects...) Also, opinions on where one might most profitably spend time and cycles looking for such a trailer when trying to keep costs down are most welcome....

I pull my Alpha around my yard by myself on 2 hardware store utility wheels on a axle under a little dolly. I have video of loading the boat on a aluminum trailer single handed. I can slide it off a dry trailer at the ramp but can not pull it back up on a dry trailer single handed, have to get the trailer wet.

any small trailer suitable for jet skis or 14-15' aluminum boat will do, the trick is getting a nice long toung because the Alpha is 21' long and lots will hang over the back if the trailer is too short, anything with a 700 lb capacity is plenty of trailer for this boat and what ever gear you cary in it. get anything bigger and the boat and trailer will come right off the ground on every bump you hit.

[TerryLL]

Hey Dan,
As I recall, you planked your dory in 6mm. Is that right? Did you ever put it on a scale and get an accurate weight?

[perldog007]

any photos yet?
How far along are you on the GLD build?

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww264/perldog007/IMG_1856-1.jpg


Sorry Dan, I missed that until you asked a second time. SBS, short bus syndrome as my good friend botebum would say.

I have since the photo was taken on sunday put the side panels together with Payson style fiberglass butt joints and done a little dry fitting to the center frame with a spall attached. Looks like I can get away with doing this one 'Instant Boat' style. I have a thread in the building section here and one over at Instant Boats.

[Clinton B Chase]

I was really impressed with how fas the AB went when I sailed with Dan a couple years ago. Needless to say skipper and crew were pretty good too! But we ate up the fleet after a late start. We were catching up fast the CY fleet, then they all decided to turn around to take a group photo before we had a chance to pass them.

Dan's main is huge and we really flew...what do you think, Dan, the wind was a good 15kt that day?

I plan to invite myself down for a sail, by the way.

[PeterSibley]

The floor is for the young. Forty somethings might get by nicely with good kneepads. But a nice level lofting bench at a comfortable working height is what the truly enlightened provide for their own lofting enjoyment. Don't deny yourself.

I guess that makes me 60 going on 40 .:D Perhaps crawling around laying tongue and groove flooring gets me used to such things !

[TerryLL]

I was really impressed with how fas the AB went when I sailed with Dan a couple years ago. Needless to say skipper and crew were pretty good too! But we ate up the fleet after a late start. We were catching up fast the CY fleet, then they all decided to turn around to take a group photo before we had a chance to pass them.

Dan's main is huge and we really flew...what do you think, Dan, the wind was a good 15kt that day?

I plan to invite myself down for a sail, by the way.

Watching Dan's videos has really got me losing sleep over that boat. I realize he's got a oversize rig, but that boat sails like a witch.

[perldog007]

Is the AB something you could stand up in on calm waters?

[TerryLL]

Is the AB something you could stand up in on calm waters?

Certainly.
I could stand in my modified 16 and also in my 18'3" John Dory. Neither boats were ballasted. Swampscott dories have a characteristic motion and it doesn't take long to get used to how they move. They are initially tender, but firm up quickly as they heel. The AB is a heavier, wider, and deeper hull than the other two, so I suspect standing will not be an issue, especially if ballast is carried. But, it's not a hull shape anyone would ever choose for a fly-fishing platform.

[Clinton B Chase]

Dory stability was used to help haul out traps. Foot up on gunwale, heel the boat, rail to water, slide the trap or nets on gunwale and lean back, the boat pulls the trap/net out with the motion.

I can sit on an AB's gunwale and I am 215lbs. I did this to show groups of kids dory stability before I took them out rowing.

[Daniel Noyes]

Sailing and Rowing
The Alpha is not a fast sail boat, but is is quite fast as far as sail and oar boats go.
The Chamberlain Alpha design is above all else a bomb proof seaworthy small craft, designed to race in groups and provid exciting competition, and also to have the capabilities to take care of it's crew if weather turns bad or wind dies and leaves the sailors stranded.
When these boats were raced they were driven hard, miles off Marblehead along the Manchester coast and out to Cape Anne through viscious chop, and glass smooth calms, no radios to call for help, no aux power, not even life jackets, they were out there with little hope of rescue but from other dory club members and busy comercial traffic.
The Alpha is a simple boat, elegantly designed to be light and strong and sail well, it was a fast boat for it's time... but times were changing.

Terry
the Alpha is a great sailer, it actually has a very short waterline for it's lenght, the bottom is less than 16' and the waterline is about 16 1/2
The hull has very little wetted surface area so the lightest breeze will have her making ripples at the bow.
Most of the out of boat videos I have were shot on a 10-12 mph wind day, This is ideal conditions for the boat it is moving well just under hull speed, slicing along. Really is a beautifull experience feeling the slight movements of the boat as the rig catches each puff of wind and the hull slices through the water.
The day we shot the video we were sailing with the Ipswich Bay 18 a sailing dory I designed based on design priciples of the Town Class dory and inland sailing scows, the IB 18 at 18' over all 180 sq ft sail was about 1/2 mph faster on all points of sail except for down wind where the boats were evenly matched, in stronger winds the IB 18 would be faster still.

As wind increases my big rig for the Alpha is actually slower than the original rig would be, I have to spill wind and this means some of the sail is simply wind drag rather than driving force, up wind she needs weight on the rail to stand up to her sail, off the wind is where you get the most speed and power from the rig.

The fastest I have had the boat is with thre of us aboard, I was the heaviest crew at 200+- lbs others were around 120-150lbs. Off the wind in about 20-25 mph breeze, main sail only, the transom was only showing about 1/2-1/3 of it's free board and water was colapsing behind transom and rising in a plume to the edge of the toombstone transom, it was a gusty day and as each gust hit we headed off the wind and leaned to windward, we were able to sit inside the boat (not hikeing) the boat would raise it's bows and surge forward...wanting to plane... but not quite there. Lots of fun we were shouting and grinning ear to ear.

Rowing
This boat rows very easilythe low wetted surface makes it almost as easy to row as my 13.5' Chamberlain skiff. The Alpha glides along at 3 mph almost effortlessly, but it's not a fast rowboat, Clint's Drake is a faster row boat with one rowing than the Alpha with two rowing, so Alpha's not a racing row boat but it is a boat that is comfortab le to row at a liesurely pace for hours.

[TerryLL]

Dan,
Sounds like just the kind of performance I'm looking for; thanks for that detailed report. There are lots of small lakes here abouts that don't allow outboards, so a decent rowing hull is a must. But we also have some massively big lakes with big water conditions, so a capable boat is also required. And, I am very partial to the dory hull form and construction, so there it is.

[perldog007]

......, it's not a hull shape anyone would ever choose for a fly-fishing platform.

There's the kind of fly fishing you see on the Versus Channel, you know famous folks with zillions of dollars worth of swag, guides, bush planes for getting to the exotic location......

Then there's fly fishing for us broke lowlifes. Ghetto Grayling (bluegill), Trailer park trout (sunfish), Redneck Rainbows ( Crappie) Hillbilly Bonefish (carp aka bugle mouth bass...).



The preferred hull shape is whatever don't leave you out there.:eek: Not too many people think Bolger Box for flyfishing, but this crappie never questioned my ride, it was just happy to be thrown back in.....



http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww264/perldog007/IMG_1811-1.jpg
I don't dare stand and cast in my big tortoise, and prolly wouldn't even if I built an A/B, but it makes it easier to make a head call ;)

Seriously, that's good insight there, All I have been able to glean so far is that my next - the GLD - is a sit down or get wet type of boat, so it's good to know.

[TerryLL]

My favorite kind of fishing is poking about in the lily pads on some out of the way lakelet going after panfish with a bobber and worms.

Not that I haven't landed my share of halibut and king salmon, but the serenity of a small lake in the evening as the frogs begin to chorus cannot be matched.

I think the AB under oars will make a dandy fish-getter, and I know just the gettin' place.

[James McMullen]

For me, dories are the absolutely iconic fishermen's rowboat!

Here's a painting by Winslow Homer, one of the best maritime artists ever!

The Fog Warning 1885

http://www.loftcam.com/grafix/homer/fog_warning.jpeg

[TerryLL]

For me, dories are the absolutely iconic fishermen's rowboat!

Here's a painting by Winslow Homer, one of the best maritime artists ever!

The Fog Warning 1885

http://www.loftcam.com/grafix/homer/fog_warning.jpeg

I have that very painting, er, a print of that painting. My Sweetie bought it for me about 20 years ago.

[Daniel Noyes]

is that schooner coming or going?

The way I've been told is the Banks dory is the most modern of the traditional dories, the banks was supposedly a simplification of the rounded sided wherry derived dory, the straight sides allow for very narrow and cheap framing stock to be used and make mass production much cheaper, faster and easier.

the banks dory is still a very popular boat especially around Gloucester, the'rs probably 40 +- in use around the harbor from working tenders to racing boats (yeah their crazy (crazy huge)) and pleasure/ fishing craft.

From what I,ve been told they were planked 2 a day by a 2 man crew, and that seems doable with all materials on hand and ready to go, the planks a very straight and make the absolute best use of the available board. Massachusets boats were known for their quality and comanded a premium price in the market, and they were a comodity, red oak was used freely in framing as even the best built boats would be beaten to splinters many years before rot hada a chance to threaten the framing... that and they were kept in regular use in salt water and had drain bungs removed when stacked on deck.
Tey have a remarkably efficient shape for their simplicity.

[James McMullen]

Simplified for mass production for industrial use. That explains a lot about the Banker. I don't think it would be most recreational rower's first choice compared to a Swampscott though, not if they had a chance to row both of them side by side to compare.

[Ian McColgin]

Rowing and stability of a banks dory are much improved by tossing in about 200# - 500# of sand in bags. Once moving, that mass at displacement speed is no big strain and against a head sea is a positive asset. Getting the dory's flare into play helps stability and bringing her down reduces windage. If you want to row open water, like Hyannis to Nantucket, that's the way to go.

While the sporty dorys, Chamberlain gunning dory or Swampscotts, row well light - far better than a banks dory light - they also benefit from a bit of weight if you're rowing off into open water.

The advantage of sand bags is that they are highly disposable. If you're unlucky enough to get swamped (this tested in a sailing capsize experiment) you actually have time to roll the boat, letting the sand bags fall free and giving you an chance to dewater the boat once the gunnels are up.

I liked the remark about using the dory's stability in fishing. In other threads I've mentioned hand long-lining off the Oregon beach in the dory Leeward. I had nice oversized midships oar locks so I's pass the line up over one side and back down the other. To haul, I'd straddle the line, shift my weight to get the rail down, take a hold on the line, and shift the other side to haul a bit in. Leaders off the line every two fathoms so if there was a fish I could flounce it aboard and in any event rebait as the line went back over the far rail.

These were not long lines in the modern power sense - about 1,000' was long enough for me as tending a couple of them took up the time and filled the boat. I was too tuckered to make more than one round trip 4+ hour row per day.

[James McMullen]

A Banks dory does make a great cradle boat, very quick and efficient to build, and talk about salty! The flat bottom lets you put the cradle down flat on the floor when you don't want it to rock. I made rockers for it to sit on for when you do want it a-rockin'

If you make it sturdy, it can become a toy or a toybox after the kids is too big to sleep in it any more. Freya still likes to play in hers.

http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/30268/2497414490088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2497414490088484686OzvYJa)
(http://www2.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=2644556009/PictureID=148547388009/a=46976995_52758666/otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/)

[perldog007]

Reading ASSC I get the impression that Chappelle was not that taken with the roundsided dories. Flat bottomed slab sided banks types get most of his ink, leaving me wondering why? Any theories? S.W.A.G.s'?

[johnw]

Chappelle was must concerned with workboats. Most of the Swampscotts were yachts.

[TerryLL]

is that schooner coming or going?




That's the question that makes this painting so compelling. Is the schooner moving off toward the distant fog bank, leaving the doryman to an uncertain fate, or has the schooner spotted the dory and approaching for a pick-up? What thoughts are passing the doryman's mind? Homer leaves us to speculate.

[Pateplumaboat]

Another of Homer´s great paintings show a "Dory lost on the Grand Banks".
See under:

http://picasaweb.google.at/Pateplumaboat/BuildingPateplumaAmberjackSticklebackSwampscottDor yDesignIainOughtred?feat=directlink#54556310481252 17954

[Clinton B Chase]

Ian I think it'd be great to get a bit of a dory resurrection going and have you come demonstrate fishing in a dory. The John Gardner Small Craft Workshop would be a great time and place to do something along these lines, even better during the Wooden Boat Show. WB had a great article a while back about Swampscotts and it is going to be time soon for another dory story.

Speaking of that, in a few days I go to my son's pre-school with a Beachcomber and the book "Dory Story" to teach them about dories and the sea. I'll dig up a photo to share.

Clint

[perldog007]

I am getting so tired of gas and oil slicks on tiny ponds, and the antics of engine driven bubba's in no-wake zones that I will do whatever I can to promote interest in dories and rowing/sailing in general.

[Thorne]

Not only do most Bank dories handle better with 200# + of weight in the bottom, but we need to remember that the modern plywood replicas built to traditional designs and measurements are vastly lighter than the originals.

So you not only have a boat originally designed to have a lot of freeboard and carrying capacity, but one now commonly built of materials possibly as much as 2/3 lighter than original materials -- particularly after the original boats had taken up a lot of water during use.

My fir over oak dory skiff clearly shows the difference when compared to another dory skiff of the same design built with marine ply -- the latter will often have twice the freeboard if not more. This means that historically-recorded features of a design may not 'translate' well when built with significantly different materials.

Peapods are another good comparison. Chapelle records the solid wood originals as being "quite heavy", but the modern ply versions are possibly 4/5 lighter in some cases!

[Clinton B Chase]

A good example is Oughtred's Swampscott dories, they need the skeg. The original swampscotts' sterns were submerged enough to have the skeg effect.

[perldog007]

Speaking of the swampscott dories, specifically the large motorized ones in Gardners BCSC - Does anybody know where to find information on what kind of sail rigs they used before the fleet all went out and bought motors?

I would be very curious to know what kind of rig working fishermen would use on a 30' swampscott dory.

[kenjamin]

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/AlphaBeach04.jpg

According to Gardner from his "The Dory" book, fishermen would often have two or three different sized "leg-o-mutton" rigs – one for racing on the weekends, one for normal weather, and one for stormy conditions when they knew it was going to be a rough day at the office.

[perldog007]

I have read BCSC and TDB chapters on the A/B dory many times ( and will re-read them many more if'n I draw breath long enough...) but I am curious as to whether or not there were any 30' swampscott dories in the boston fishing fleet before folks started putting motors in them, and what kind of rigs did they use? Two stickers? Ketch/Schooner? Just curious.... I think one of those 30' swampscotts as described in BCSC would be waaay cool with a badger style two masted schooner junk rig, but I wonder if they were ever sailed, or were the dories a little smaller when the boys had to row home in the calm.

[TerryLL]

I have read BCSC and TDB chapters on the A/B dory many times ( and will re-read them many more if'n I draw breath long enough...) but I am curious as to whether or not there were any 30' swampscott dories in the boston fishing fleet before folks started putting motors in them, and what kind of rigs did they use? Two stickers? Ketch/Schooner? Just curious.... I think one of those 30' swampscotts as described in BCSC would be waaay cool with a badger style two masted schooner junk rig, but I wonder if they were ever sailed, or were the dories a little smaller when the boys had to row home in the calm.

There was a scaled up Swampscott in Port Townsend a few years back, fully decked, maybe 30 feet or so. One of the PT members might have some additional information on the boat.

[Daniel Noyes]

I have read BCSC and TDB chapters on the A/B dory many times ( and will re-read them many more if'n I draw breath long enough...) but I am curious as to whether or not there were any 30' swampscott dories in the boston fishing fleet before folks started putting motors in them, and what kind of rigs did they use? Two stickers? Ketch/Schooner? Just curious.... I think one of those 30' swampscotts as described in BCSC would be waaay cool with a badger style two masted schooner junk rig, but I wonder if they were ever sailed, or were the dories a little smaller when the boys had to row home in the calm.

yeah wow...
I dont' know
Terry you have the ketch rig on your big Cape Anne dory, Cape Anne is visable from Swampscott, only about 5 miles away,
Do we have any photos ofr big sailing Swampscotts? I havent seen any, just with engines, but very early in the engine era.

I have seen photos of big dorys/dory skiffs on the Parker river in Newbury and Newburyport, 24-26' boats, but oar powered far as I can tell.

my guess would be some kind of sprit rig set up

[TerryLL]

Chapelle shows a large two-masted sailing dory in ASSC, but it is a flat-sided hull like the Cape Ann. It is kind of interesting that Chapelle has so little to say about the round-sided dories.

The Boston power dories in Gardner's MBCSC all seem to be dedicated power designs with no provision for sail. Perhaps the larger round-sided dories evolved in response to the gasoline engine and had no pre-engine sailing equivalent.

The one I saw in PT years ago was a scaled up version of a smaller Swampscott and not a reproduction of an older design of that size. I talked to the builder, this was back in 1981, and he told me which design he started with, but memory fails.

[perldog007]

Maybe I'm hooked on Chronics or something, but on page 31 of 'Boat-building' Chapelle seems to say that the round sided dories are only done that way for appearance and it makes no sense at all to complicate the build with rounded sides... anybody else notice that/think I mis-understood?

It would make sense to me that the swampscotts used by the Sicilian fishermen in the Boston fleet would have been limited to about a/b size pre-engine due to the rowing requirements, but then i think these were pretty tough hombres..

I have found much on sailing St. Pierres - Badger and others. Have a copy of Anthony Bailey's "thousand dollar yacht" but there seems to be much less on Big round sided dories under sail. Seems odd, if the type is better suited to sailing and the big St. Pierre is a popular conversion for pleasure boating.....

[TerryLL]

I went back and read that section in Chapelle's BB, and the guy does seem to have a low opinion of the round-sided dories. Perhaps that's why he has so little to say about them in ASSC.

[James McMullen]

Maybe it's because one of the prime considerations for a dory--being simple to build quickly out of wide boards--starts to disappear when you get into larger, more complicated sailboats. Especially for ballasted sailboats with substantial keel structural members! Just like a three-masted schooner hull doesn't scale down all that well to rowboat size, maybe a larger sailboat based on a small rowboat doesn't scale up to work as well as other shapes?

[Jlaup]

Maybe it's because one of the prime considerations for a dory--being simple to build quickly out of wide boards--starts to disappear when you get into larger, more complicated sailboats. Especially for ballasted sailboats with substantial keel structural members! Just like a three-masted schooner hull doesn't scale down all that well to rowboat size, maybe a larger sailboat based on a small rowboat doesn't scale up to work as well as other shapes?
I'll let you know if I ever finish the Indian and get in the water. ;) Honestly, the sawn frames and flat bottom are the genetic markers that it was a dory. But, the bottom, is virtually a keelson and the sawn frames are supplemented w/ thin bent ones. Maybe the big garboards, too. But, I'm hard pressed to 'see' it as a dory.

[James McMullen]

I'm really talking more about a 30 foot cruising sloop than a daysailer like an Indian, though. An Indian is still a little bitty boat in terms of displacement--that entire boat can weigh less than just the ballast casting alone of a full-size cruiser.

I think the guy with the big junk schooner rigged Swampscott-inspired boat was Dave Williams. That's a pretty unique sort of boat though, and I'm not sure how much you can generalize from it.

[Clinton B Chase]

Here is a sketch of a 105 SF lug and mizzen in the AB Dory.

Why so few dories are rigged as yawls is curious but it is a natural fit, especially with rope steering to get around the mizzen.

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m463/clintonbchase/BeachcomberRig.jpg

The Deblois St Dory will be a lug-yawl and sprit-yawl.

[TerryLL]

I'll let you know if I ever finish the Indian and get in the water. ;) Honestly, the sawn frames and flat bottom are the genetic markers that it was a dory. But, the bottom, is virtually a keelson and the sawn frames are supplemented w/ thin bent ones. Maybe the big garboards, too. But, I'm hard pressed to 'see' it as a dory.

The Indian can be viewed as a dory principally be tracing its evolution back through the generations of dory development. But viewing the Indian by itself, without benefit of that history, you would hardly think of the Indian as a dory.

An immediate predecessor of the Indian was the Mower X-Dory, which had the narrow keelson bottom seen in the Indian but retained the tombestone transom, the outboard rudder, and the alpha rig of the Beachcombers. The trend toward sailing performance culminated in the Indian, a boat that has little resemblance to its working-class ancestors.

[TerryLL]

Why so few dories are rigged as yawls is curious but it is a natural fit, especially with rope steering to get around the mizzen.

The Deblois St Dory will be a lug-yawl and sprit-yawl.

I am very eager to get a sailing report on the lug rig. How is Shane's build coming? Got a launch date yet?

[perldog007]

Large scale banks dories are reported by some accounts to sail reliably, if not well by some standards. Badger and Hunky Dory are two examples I have read about online and as mentioned 'TTDY' by Anthony Bailey is on my shelf.

Certainly I haven't read anything great about speed or upwind performance on these big dories but cruising comfort and sea keeping ability seem to be common denominators.

I am going to have to go with complication of build. The big banks/St. Pierre dories have got to be a magnitude of order easier to build and that would have a direct bearing on cost.

Still, I read about the improvement of the round sided dory over the banks dory, read about the big cruising banks dories, and can't help but wonder "what if?".

Too bad I don't have a few hundred thousand lying around to sink into a grand experiment.

The lines and offsets for the 30' swampscott in BCSC are intriguing, but I can't at this time envision having the resources for an exercise in 'what if?'.

[Redeye]

So how is a dory different to a a norse faery?

Is it just that it's not built with a keel? But rather a flat plank? For me a dory has alway had a flat or near to flat bottom and a single chine, with a sheer like an oeselvaer faery - or maybe more pronounced upswept bow and stern.

[kenjamin]

On the smaller rowing dories it's easy to see why they do not sail well. If you were to think of these dories as women, you could say they just don't have the hips for sailing. Badger, on the other hand, does.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/BadgerTop.jpg

Furthermore, Badger has the added complication of a ballasted fin keel which also adds to her sailing ability.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/BadgerProfile.jpg

Badger does have a flat bottom which keeps her somewhat in the dory family but this sure isn't any rowing dory. This is a cruiser. The slab sides may help with the ease of construction and are slightly cheaper to build but by the time you've outfitted this boat for cruising, I'm guessing you will have spent almost as much money as if she were round sided.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/BadgerSlings.jpg

The greatest advantage of Badger is that she was designed from the ground up as a cruising boat for two and for that purpose she has a convenient rig and a well documented track record.

[James McMullen]

Badger is a sheet-plywood design. "Dory" is a term of convenience, as she has almost nothing in common with traditional dories other than the gross morphology of flat bottom and flared sides. We're stuck within the limitations of our language, I suppose.

Badger is not noted for being a great performance sailer, but rather as being an easy and simple boat to sail. When you read the descriptions of her by even her staunchest partisans like Annie Hill herself, you'll soon note phrases like, "well, most cruisers don't sail to windward if they can help it," and "I see lots of sloops using their motors to go upwind too." A dead giveaway. Still doesn't mean that this sort of boat might not be right for some, as long as they know what they're getting in for.

[Jlaup]

The Indian can be viewed as a dory principally be tracing its evolution back through the generations of dory development. But viewing the Indian by itself, without benefit of that history, you would hardly think of the Indian as a dory.

An immediate predecessor of the Indian was the Mower X-Dory, which had the narrow keelson bottom seen in the Indian but retained the tombestone transom, the outboard rudder, and the alpha rig of the Beachcombers. The trend toward sailing performance culminated in the Indian, a boat that has little resemblance to its working-class ancestors.

I was under the boat fussing with the rudder stock and tube and noticed that the bottom is really quite wide inside the boat. It is 17 1/2" at frame 5 (about where you would sit w/ the tiller.) The angle of the garboards and the 1 1/2" thickness of the bottom make for a deceptively narrow exterior width. (I cleverly rotated the photo for the sake of clarity.)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3383/4642240294_84c90566b9.jpg
You are looking aft from the centerboard trunk. The first frame is frame 5, then frame 6. The distance is foreshortened in the photo, the frames are 3' apart. The tube is the rudder tube and aft of that is the transom knee.

The floors extend out to the outer edge of the garboard. That would make the bottom of the cockpit sole close to 4' wide!

[TerryLL]

I just looked at my Indian plans and your widths to inside of planking are just right. The garboard joins at such a shallow angle that the bottom width on the outside is about half that. That photo sure looks like the inside of a dory bottom. She's looking mighty fine.

[Daniel Noyes]

Gardners 19' Coast Guard dory
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/161/413057940_e0f93042e9_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/413057940/)http://farm1.static.flickr.com/188/413063466_2638ad4aaa_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/413063466/)http://farm1.static.flickr.com/171/413059699_80c98db048_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/413059699/)http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/413059392_74343da68c_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/413059392/)http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/413060203_a43689a8b5_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/dansdories/413060203/)

[Daniel Noyes]

I was under the boat fussing with the rudder stock and tube and noticed that the bottom is really quite wide inside the boat. It is 17 1/2" at frame 5 (about where you would sit w/ the tiller.) The angle of the garboards and the 1 1/2" thickness of the bottom make for a deceptively narrow exterior width. (I cleverly rotated the photo for the sake of clarity.)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3383/4642240294_84c90566b9.jpg
You are looking aft from the centerboard trunk. The first frame is frame 5, then frame 6. The distance is foreshortened in the photo, the frames are 3' apart. The tube is the rudder tube and aft of that is the transom knee.

The floors extend out to the outer edge of the garboard. That would make the bottom of the cockpit sole close to 4' wide!

plenty of room for camping on the floor, will you rig a boom tent

[Jlaup]

plenty of room for camping on the floor, will you rig a boom tent
Why not, I have OFF and a bucket:)

[Daniel Noyes]

I went back and read that section in Chapelle's BB, and the guy does seem to have a low opinion of the round-sided dories. Perhaps that's why he has so little to say about them in ASSC.

What was the jist of his complaint?
I really dont't see the two strake knuckles as imparting much building difficulty at all, and certainly only cost pennies more due to the slightly wider stock necessary for the curved frames.


As far as rigs go the unstayed sprit rig and the dory leg-O-mutton with or without small jib set flying are traditional rigs.
Clint your going to try a yawl in the Deblois, right? also lots of rigs have been tried and experiemented with in the past, Pete Cullers "Dancing Feather" now being restored in Manchester Mass had a ketch rig,

Terry you mention handiness, can you elaborate what qualities your looking for, What are the proposed advantages of a two sail rig over the sloop or cat?

[TerryLL]

... on page 31 of 'Boat-building' Chapelle seems to say that the round sided dories are only done that way for appearance and it makes no sense at all to complicate the build with rounded sides...


Daniel,
Perldog dug this quote out of Chapelle's Boat Building. I then went back and read everything I could find in Chapelle about round-sided dories, which wasn't much. No mention as to their superior sailing qualities. It's like he simply discounted them as not worth the added effort to build. I don't get it.

The rig I want for the Alpha-Beach is one that is easily and quickly reefed, or even struck entirely on the water. I've sailed extensively with the sprit ketch rig in a large dory and found it much to my liking. James rants so convincingly about the wonders of his lug-yawl rig on Rowan that I'd like to give it a try on the AB. I particularly like the short spars, absence of a jib, multiple deep reef points, and the windvane mizzen. For my kind of sailing, speed and tradition take a back seat to being able to safely single hand the boat in ugly weather.

[perldog007]

I have looked at Clint's drawing many many times with great interest. Has anybody actually tried that setup on an A/B?

[TerryLL]

I have looked at Clint's drawing many many times with great interest. Has anybody actually tried that setup on an A/B?

The only rig I've seen on the AB has been the traditional LOM rig.

Boatbear put a gaff rig on his Sea Chanty, with a big jib on a bowsprit, and he reports it's a joy. Another Sea Chanty out of Port Townsend flies a massive gaff rig with a curved gaff. Sprit rigs and sprit ketch rigs are common on the smaller dories.

I do believe the lack of an alternate rig is one reason so few Beachcombers get built.

[Clinton B Chase]

There is nothing rocket science oriented in making this new rig for the AB or any dory. It will perform if you know how to use it and the old and new CE's line up. If there is some flexibility built into the dory, for instance ability to change the rake of the mast, you can't go wrong. I'd love to see the lug-yawl put into an AB.

Shane, building the D St D, is going to put his existing sprit into the boat to start the season, and hopefully make the mizzen because it'll balance the plan better.

I suggest Terry build the AB and do a lug with mizzen. Balancing the plan is easy. The key is not to include all the mizzen area in the CE calculations.

[James McMullen]

I'm changing my tag-line to "convincing ranter".

Oh well, better to be a shamelessly bad influence than have no influence at all. :D

[TerryLL]

I suggest Terry build the AB and do a lug with mizzen. Balancing the plan is easy. The key is not to include all the mizzen area in the CE calculations.

Do you have some sense of the percentage of the mizzen to use in the CE calculation? My thoughts are that the CB will need to be moved aft, and that provision for two mast steps would allow for sailing main only or main and mizzen.




I'm changing my tag-line to "convincing ranter".


Fits you perfectly. You convinced me to give the lug-yawl rig a try. But I will be carrying an outboard, and no amount of ranting will stop me.

[perldog007]

I tow in too many clowns with my inflatable kayak to trust an outboard. A mechanical moron like me will just go out further than he can row back when his moronedness prevents proper operation of said outboard to get home. The last 'pond tow' I did was two old farts in a 10' plastic bass molesting rig.

They had battery power, some sort of trolling motor malfunction. I was just flyfishing from the bank and saw these geezers taking turns with a four foot paddle. So I dumped my bolger box off the roof of my soccer mommy environmental disaster SUV and rowed out, then towed them in.

I explained to them that I prefer rowing because when my engine quits, my worldly cares are over. I just make sure my PFD is on so the county or state or C.G. don't have to drag the bottom......

Back to dories, does anybody have an opinion of whether or not seam batten construction with plywood planking would work on an A/B?

Is it feasible to make a 'monocoque' hull as I.O. describes in his book, using the frames as molds only for a round sided dory?

[Clinton B Chase]

perldog, you can do that but may have a hull with a little more flex, which isn't a bad thing if properly done. Just be sure to place the thwarts so they support the structure. Some bent frames might not be a bad idea and use 9mm ply.

Terry, the amount of mizzen to include is from 50%-100% depending...if it is a large enough mizzen and it is doing some driving then close to 100%.

[perldog007]

In general, are any of the traditional dory sailing rigs known for upwind performance?

[Clinton B Chase]

A well set lugsail will go upwind great. In a dory, the yard needs to be able to bend the right way in gusts (i.e., top of yard opens leach to spill air). The boom should be somewhat stiff and allow for a loose footed sail with outhaul adjustment.

The lug will do nearly as well as sloop with good foils. The Deblois St Dory has nice foil daggerboard. The rudder foil can be made to help provide lift too.

[marcellsworth]

I'm glad I found this thread. I've been working on a 19 foot sailing dory based on the Cape Ann type. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against any of the Swampscott types. I just have a soft spot for the Cape Ann. I like the sleek look. My design goals are: (1) a quick and dirty build, (2) cheap - it's like 5 sheets of plywood, (3) the seaworthiness to handle less than ideal conditions, and (4) a reasonable payload for a two person camp cruiser. So far, this is what I am thinking:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4646566898_f3e09bba20_b.jpg
Jeez... I just realized I didn't include the centerboard or the real masts. Sorry guys... Anyway, my thinking is that 18 to 20 feet is about the minimum size for this type of dory; anything smaller will row okay but be very picky to sail. My experience - admittedly limited - with smaller dories is that things tend to happen fast... real fast. My expectation is that it should be a lively enough sailer. I mean, I don't expect to blow the doors (hatches?) off any Indians or X-dories, but I do think it will be a more lively sailer than the Chappelle Cape Ann. The scantlings are more reasonable for a recreational boat than the workboat type Chappelle drew (I believe he called for an inch and a half bottom). No doubt that made a great working boat, but is that really necessary for a pleasure boat? So far it looks like 100 to 250 lbs of ballast should be ideal, depending on how much live ballast is involved...

So what do you think? I am open to criticism, but don't be too hard on me, okay?

Marc

[TerryLL]

Back to dories, does anybody have an opinion of whether or not seam batten construction with plywood planking would work on an A/B?

Is it feasible to make a 'monocoque' hull as I.O. describes in his book, using the frames as molds only for a round sided dory?


The answer to the first question is yes. My first build was Gardner's modified 16 Swamscott which I built batten-seam. But, I would advise against it. Batten-seam significantly complicates the build and clutters up the interior with all those little batten shelves, which collect water and dirt and give mold a home. Glue-lap is much quicker and simpler to build and produces a smooth interior, and the exterior is better looking (IMHO).

Yes to the second question also. Can be done, but why? The frames are a significant structural element in a Swampscott, and provide high-strength places to mount seat risers, flooring and rigging. The only reason I can see to build a Swampscott frameless would be for maximum weight reduction in a performance rowing hull.

[TerryLL]

In general, are any of the traditional dory sailing rigs known for upwind performance?

Daniel reports his AB with the LOM rig steps to windward very well. My 16' Gardner with a gaff rig and jib went upwind like a champ.

[wayne nicol]

howdy, what do you guys think of a dory in say 25' loa, with ballast , cabin for rudimentary accommodations, and have the ability to load all the camp gear in for some gunkholing. for 2 adults and 2 young kids
i know dorys are not the greatest sailers, but very capable boats none the less.
have always liked the look of the clc northeaster type dory, small transom, but essentially still a double ender- kind of.
dont want a slab sided- grand bsnks, st pierre dory, preferably lapstrake.
what are cthe feelings , and are there already some boats out there that would fit this description
thanks

[TerryLL]

howdy, what do you guys think of a dory in say 25' loa, with ballast , cabin for rudimentary accommodations, and have the ability to load all the camp gear in for some gunkholing. for 2 adults and 2 young kids
i know dorys are not the greatest sailers, but very capable boats none the less.
have always liked the look of the clc northeaster type dory, small transom, but essentially still a double ender- kind of.
dont want a slab sided- grand bsnks, st pierre dory, preferably lapstrake.
what are cthe feelings , and are there already some boats out there that would fit this description
thanks

This was discussed earlier on this thread. There does not seem to be any round-sided sailing dory designs larger than about 22 feet, and these are either open or half-decked designs, i.e., daysailers.

[perldog007]

I think that would be a bit small. Check out Gardner's books.

[TerryLL]

I think that would be a bit small. Check out Gardner's books.

I don't see a round-sided sailing dory in Gardner larger than the Alpha-Beach. Am I missing something?

[Canoeyawl]

Batten lap is a good option, From the outside it looks the same as any lapstrake boat, same laps, same gains etc. This is a fast efficient way to build a good smalll boat.
You gain the advantage of the battens for fairing and lining off as well as a significant increase in strength.
The interior problem remains, but a spoke shave (after it is built) can create a bevel amidships that will drain just fine.
All of the stock dories built at Aeolus boats (probably well over a hundred of them) were built that way and most are still going fine. The ones that are not were built of Occume, no fault of the construction process.
Take a look a Banjoman's found a dory [?] thread

[perldog007]

I don't see a round-sided sailing dory in Gardner larger than the Alpha-Beach. Am I missing something?

In BCSC..

No referring to the 28' power dory plans. Also the pic of the 30' power dory. Just to get an idea of the size.

[Daniel Noyes]

I'm glad I found this thread. I've been working on a 19 foot sailing dory based on the Cape Ann type. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against any of the Swampscott types. I just have a soft spot for the Cape Ann. I like the sleek look. My design goals are: (1) a quick and dirty build, (2) cheap - it's like 5 sheets of plywood, (3) the seaworthiness to handle less than ideal conditions, and (4) a reasonable payload for a two person camp cruiser. So far, this is what I am thinking:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4646566898_f3e09bba20_b.jpg
Jeez... I just realized I didn't include the centerboard or the real masts. Sorry guys... Anyway, my thinking is that 18 to 20 feet is about the minimum size for this type of dory; anything smaller will row okay but be very picky to sail. My experience - admittedly limited - with smaller dories is that things tend to happen fast... real fast. My expectation is that it should be a lively enough sailer. I mean, I don't expect to blow the doors (hatches?) off any Indians or X-dories, but I do think it will be a more lively sailer than the Chappelle Cape Ann. The scantlings are more reasonable for a recreational boat than the workboat type Chappelle drew (I believe he called for an inch and a half bottom). No doubt that made a great working boat, but is that really necessary for a pleasure boat? So far it looks like 100 to 250 lbs of ballast should be ideal, depending on how much live ballast is involved...

So what do you think? I am open to criticism, but don't be too hard on me, okay?

Marc
Looks good to me, Is there a historic hull that could work for you? what about the Higgins and Gifford in Chapelle, I have sailed these hulls and they are fast and capable, though mabey a little small.
If you want a bigger boat try taking a small design and streaching the frame spacing, classic method for lenghtening a dory.

Youve got a moderate sail, relatively long and narrow, it will likely be a little tippy initially but should firm up as the rail aproaches the water, the sail plan is kept low.
relatively wide transom top, this should make the aft area useable.

the helm area is slightly cluttered by the second mast and sail, how did you work this set up terry is the sail and mast in the way or does it just look close on paper?
I set up a schooner rig in the 19' Gardner Coast guard banks dory, the schooner moves the aft (main) mast forward to amidships giving lots of room aft for helmesman.
I dont think you will need the side seats, they just take up space, when sailing stradle the rowing thwarts, one leg on either side and you can adjust your weight all along the lenght of the thawart depending on wind strength to achieve the optimum angle of heel for your dory, they seem to like to sail with 10-15 degrees, I think the banks dories are the most sensative/ improved, by sailing with a bit of heel

[TerryLL]

the helm area is slightly cluttered by the second mast and sail, how did you work this set up terry is the sail and mast in the way or does it just look close on paper?


http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/cape_ann1.jpg?t=1275142225


The helm area is definitely cluttered. The mizzen is constantly in your face and the foot wants to knock your hat off with every tack. I found sailing with a jib was just way too many lines to tend, so I most often sailed without it. The most comfortable sailing was with main alone with the mainmast in its aft step, but that required a ton of wind for any kind of decent speed.

There is so little room in the stern of these dories that anything you can do to place yourself amidships improves comfort. Steering with lines is always an option.

The sprit ketch rig is great on a boat of this type, but it does compromise the living space to a great degree

[perldog007]

What do you think of a sprit rig but set up like "DragonFly", a sprit yawl with a push stick rudder to go around the mizzen? Could that work?

[James McMullen]

Why not? Though I'll go ahead and add my inevitable "but the balance lug uses just as short spars, is self-vanging, more docile in higher winds, and is handier to reef, set or strike than a spritsail." It's not all that hugely different in shape or size or performance, though. No huge reason not to use a spritsail instead if you just like the historicity and appearance of it and are not concerned about regularly sailing in reefing conditions.

The push-pull tiller stick set up is used more and more by all sorts of sail 'n oar boaters whether or not they have a rig with a mizzen as it allows such enormous flexibility for the helmsman to sit anywhere in the boat-- fore and aft, side to side, sitting on the bottom, hiked out on the rail, standing up, whatever. In a small boat you don't have that much room to spare for the swing-room a conventional tiller demands. Plus, you really must get your body weight distributed to the right part of the boat--sometimes immediately!

You can get your weight forward and the tiller stick comes right down where you can hold it comfortably in your lap. There's no reason to twist around or hold the tiller behind your head, no need to duck under the tiller as it sweeps across--you're never in the way:

http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/2418/2506010340088484686S425x425Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2506010340088484686hJShwk) http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/42940/2421808240088484686S425x425Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2421808240088484686cbsfgh) http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/23469/2445226760088484686S425x425Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2445226760088484686pwPmzV)

And you can stand up and still steer no problem.

http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/46516/2156249600088484686S425x425Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2156249600088484686IRSVwg)


The push-pull tiller makes these kinds of helmsman contortions obsolete.

http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/18639/2170018710088484686S425x425Q85.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/188/413063466_2638ad4aaa_m.jpg
(http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2170018710088484686jgAGGp)

[TerryLL]

What do you think of a sprit rig but set up like "DragonFly", a sprit yawl with a push stick rudder to go around the mizzen? Could that work?

Certainly. The loose-footed or sprit-boomed sprit rig was a standard work boat rig for the dory. The yawl rig makes a lot more sense than the ketch on a long narrow boat because there's plenty of length aft to step the mizzen, and even sheet it to the rudder head. And the yawl puts all that rigging and mast behind the helm and out of the way.

If I had to do it again, I would increase the main on the Cape Ann, step a small mizzen well aft, forget the jib, and go with a push-pull tiller. Just what I'm thinking for the Beachcomber. I'm eager to see if that lug main is as wonderful as claimed. Vanging a loose-footed sprit main is a challenge.

[Daniel Noyes]

Here's some good action video of the rudder yoke and lines

Ness Yawl is the green hull to starboard and the core sound is the ketch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTIpCz_NMJM&feature=related

the yoke and lines are used on marble head dories while the Swampscotts always steered with a tiller.
What James mentions about the push pull stick generally holds true for the rudder lines as well. My only complaint with these systems is the lack of positive feel of a real tiller...
and the contortions? thats the funn of steering with a tiller! I'd like to see someone steering with their foot or between the legs with a push pull or harder still lines. :)

[TerryLL]

Here's some good action video of the rudder yoke and lines

Ness Yawl is the green hull to starboard and the core sound is the ketch.


the yoke and lines are used on marble head dories while the Swampscotts always steered with a tiller.
What James mentions about the push pull stick generally holds true for the rudder lines as well. My only complaint with these systems is the lack of positive feel of a real tiller...
and the contortions? thats the funn of steering with a tiller! I'd like to see someone steering with their foot or between the legs with a push pull or harder still lines. :)

I'm missing the link in your post.

[marcellsworth]

Looks good to me, Is there a historic hull that could work for you? what about the Higgins and Gifford in Chapelle, I have sailed these hulls and they are fast and capable, though mabey a little small.
If you want a bigger boat try taking a small design and streaching the frame spacing, classic method for lenghtening a dory.

Youve got a moderate sail, relatively long and narrow, it will likely be a little tippy initially but should firm up as the rail aproaches the water, the sail plan is kept low.
relatively wide transom top, this should make the aft area useable.

the helm area is slightly cluttered by the second mast and sail, how did you work this set up terry is the sail and mast in the way or does it just look close on paper?
I set up a schooner rig in the 19' Gardner Coast guard banks dory, the schooner moves the aft (main) mast forward to amidships giving lots of room aft for helmesman.
I dont think you will need the side seats, they just take up space, when sailing stradle the rowing thwarts, one leg on either side and you can adjust your weight all along the lenght of the thawart depending on wind strength to achieve the optimum angle of heel for your dory, they seem to like to sail with 10-15 degrees, I think the banks dories are the most sensative/ improved, by sailing with a bit of heel

Thanks Dan. This hull started out as the 23 foot Cape Ann from Chappelle, scaled down to 19 feet and tweaked a bit to make it developable from sheet plywood. I did widen the transom to make the run a little flatter. I like how this lengthens and balances out the waterlines when heeled. I'm inclined to agree about the ketch rig. I have started working on the yawl rig. I am going to work it up as both a sprit main and a lugsail. I like the traditional look of the club footed spritsail. If the ketch mizzen goes, so will the thwart aft of midships. That will do a lot to unclutter the helm area. I think I would probably go with the push-pull tiller rather than line steering. Actually, it is probably smart to try it both ways; the two setups are not that far apart.

Marc

[Daniel Noyes]

Marc
I'm willing to bet you sail the boat 90% of the time with just the mainsail, especially if you increases the main size to 75+- sq ft.

looks like a easily driven hull, what are you thinking of doing for flotation?

[Daniel Noyes]

. I think I would probably go with the push-pull tiller rather than line steering. Actually, it is probably smart to try it both ways; the two setups are not that far apart.

Marc

If the yoke steering were'nt such an imoprtant part of the Alpha design there's no way I would have gone with it, or a push pull for that matter, I would choose the typical tiller with a main sheet travler, as I say you can't beat the feel, simplicity, and the transom area of a dory is not used actively in sailing so the tiller sweeping it is not a big deal.

When I build another Alpha rudder the yoke will be removable with a pin and I will have an alternate rudder that I can change out if I feel like it.

[James McMullen]

Great video, Daniel! You were really hauling ass! Did you get a GPS reading for your speed made good?

[TerryLL]

Daniel,
I'm pretty darn impressed with the speed of your AB. That dory just seems to knife through the water. I gotta have one. Thanks for the video.

[Clinton B Chase]

I can vouch for the speed. They were smart cookies, Chamberlain and those dory guys! I was also impressed with how the waves were knocked down by the chines.

[perldog007]

Gosh darn it though, we had to look at the banks dories again and I really have the hots for those things, don't know why either. Perhaps because you can make them like plywood boxes?:D:D I better hurry up and get my GLD together. Might test that do-over on the port side hull butt joint tomorrow.....

[TerryLL]

Gosh darn it though, we had to look at the banks dories again and I really have the hots for those things, don't know why either. Perhaps because you can make them like plywood boxes?:D:D I better hurry up and get my GLD together. Might test that do-over on the port side hull butt joint tomorrow.....


Those big bank-type dories like the Cape Ann look so simple to build. But those sides are 20+ feet long, about 3 feet wide, and shaped in a big curve. Consider the logistics of getting that slab properly slathered with epoxy and then positioned exactly in place. And it all has to be fastened down before the epoxy goes off. Better have a raft of friends at the ready who know the drill. There will be screaming, and when the job is done, epoxy will cover every square inch of exposed skin. And I hope you don't find, after all the fasteners have been driven, after all the friends have departed, after the epoxy has firmly set, that there are major gaps between the panel and several frames.

[perldog007]

Terry, I think you just made a good case for the more seakindly, yet less aesthetic ( to my warped sensibilities anywho ) a/b over a big Cape Ann. I am approaching the same challenge on a very small scale with the one frame and relatively small side panels in putting the GLD together Michalak/Instant Boat style. I can imagine the fun if you make that panel a bit heavier and longer, add some frames. WHOOT!! as they say.

[marcellsworth]

Marc
I'm willing to bet you sail the boat 90% of the time with just the mainsail, especially if you increases the main size to 75+- sq ft.

looks like a easily driven hull, what are you thinking of doing for flotation?

You may be right about the sail plan, though I've grown pretty fond of the mizzen sailing canoes. I'm planning watertight compartments with foam fore and aft with some foam under the washboards along the sheer. The stowage lockers under the seats will have some foam too.

Marc

[marcellsworth]

Those big bank-type dories like the Cape Ann look so simple to build. But those sides are 20+ feet long, about 3 feet wide, and shaped in a big curve. Consider the logistics of getting that slab properly slathered with epoxy and then positioned exactly in place. And it all has to be fastened down before the epoxy goes off. Better have a raft of friends at the ready who know the drill. There will be screaming, and when the job is done, epoxy will cover every square inch of exposed skin. And I hope you don't find, after all the fasteners have been driven, after all the friends have departed, after the epoxy has firmly set, that there are major gaps between the panel and several frames.

This is one of the big differences in stitch-and-glue and plank construction. The pieces are bigger, so the sequence has to be worked out well before any epoxy is mixed. I clamp everything together dry before any gluing, and gluing the hull together is a separate operation from coating the plywood with epoxy. Breaking the construction down into a series of steps does wonders in keeping your sanity at whatever level it already is. ;) I think I will cut out the bottom, attach the stem and transom, the molds or frames, and then glue the sides to the bow, bottom, and stern. The fillets come next. Then give it three coats of epoxy, then glass if you are going to. I am thinking very seriously about making a female mold out of cheap plywood; that will greatly simplify getting (and keeping) everything into position.

Marc

[TerryLL]

This is how I did it. Frames set up on the strongback and then chine logs and sheer clamps sprung in place. Sides went on first so I could use the chine logs for clamping, then the bottom went on last. All the planking was 1/2 ply. Lines straight from Chapelle.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/CapeAnnConst2.jpg?t=1275237217

[marcellsworth]

If I was going to do it like that, I would probably use some screws to attach the sides temporarily. The screws can be removed after gluing and the holes filled with epoxy. That's really the challenge of building with ply: handling the pieces. Anyway you sure did a great job on that build. You can be very proud of her. She is a real looker!

Marc

[TerryLL]

Well, I'm a suspenders and belt sort of person, so the sides were epoxied AND screwed to frames, chines and clamps. To temporarily hold the monster side panel in place I clamped ledger blocks below the sheer clamps for the panel to rest on. It slid around pretty easily on the wet epoxy, so positioning it for and aft was easy. I started fastening from the center and worked toward the ends to avoid gaposis. I got it down everywhere before the epoxy cooked off and then went back and added the rest of the fastenings.

[perldog007]

Terry, is the chine and sheer clamp flush with the frames?

[TerryLL]

Terry, is the chine and sheer clamp flush with the frames?

Yes. The frames, stem and transom are all notched for the sheer clamps and chine logs. The planking lies flat against the chine, the frames and the clamp.

[perldog007]

Is that a difficult process, to cut the notches so the chine log and sheer clamp lay flush? What sort of tools did you use?

[TerryLL]

Nope, not difficult. Mark the size of the notch on the three sides of the frame, front, back and face. A regular handsaw, a backsaw, or a Japanese pull saw can be used to make the two face cuts. Hammer and chisels will do to clean the waste from the notch. As your skills improve you will find that a skilsaw can knock out these notches in short order.

If you are absolutely secure in your lofting skill, you can cut these notches in the frames before they're set up on the strongback. I have never had that much confidence and have always laid a stiff batten on the set up frames to insure a fair sweep to the sheer line.

[perldog007]

It looks like once you have the chine logs and sheer clamp in then getting the shape of the side panels is pretty straightforward. Did you just make a pattern with builders paper?

[TerryLL]

Lots of different ways to make patterns but paper is not so good. Back in those days I was using door skins cut into strips and stapled together to make a crude version of gert's girder pattern. I see john on his Indian build is using the same system. Seems fairly foolproof.

[Daniel Noyes]

It looks like once you have the chine logs and sheer clamp in then getting the shape of the side panels is pretty straightforward. Did you just make a pattern with builders paper?

are you talking a plank or single pannel side?

if the bottom and frames are set up (see first post on "skillet") then the garboard or pannel can be attached by
1 running the garboard beyond the bottom pannel leaving excess to be trimed to the height of the bottom later.
2 running the garboard beyond the bow and stern leaving excess leaving excess to be trimed to lenght later.
3 if another plank is to be hung the top edge of garboard should be batten fair before it is installed, if single pannel bottom the sheer can be batten faired once pannel is hung.

[Daniel Noyes]

Alpha top speed? In the videos we are traveling probably 5-6 mph with the other boats and 6-7 mph in the video below also taken at the Small reach regatta in about 20 mph breeze

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab9O9xZECQc&feature=related

The fastest I have had her sailing so far was unfortunately a day the video was not along, sailing at close to 10 mph 8-9 anyway
this seems to bear out the statments by Edwin Schottele (of Manchester Ma. and Seawahaken Cup racing fame) in his book Yacht Racing of 1931 that the local racing dories were, for boats of their small size, capable of the terrific speeds of 7-8 kts.

[perldog007]

That sounds like way too much fun.

[TerryLL]

The fastest I have had her sailing so far was unfortunately a day the video was not along, sailing at close to 10 mph 8-9 anyway
this seems to bear out the statments by Edwin Schottele (of Manchester Ma. and Seawahaken Cup racing fame) in his book Yacht Racing of 1931 that the local racing dories were, for boats of their small size, capable of the terrific speeds of 7-8 kts.

Do you have any explanation for this kind of performance? The AB has a hull speed of about 5.5, and it's not a planing hull, yet attains speeds almost trice the theoretical hull speed. How does it do it?

[paladin]

You can build big dories but t'ain't fun making them outta a single piece of plywood...it's also expensive....just lay up flat planks of fir 1 x 2 or 1 x 3 edge epoxied together and bent and epoxied to the frames...lights sanding and a couple layers of cloth/epoxy over.

[perldog007]

That sounds like a real tank! I had let my mind ( such as it is ) wander around 2by bottom of wide boards, some tough frames of 1by with ply gussets. Iby planking..

Just thinking about it while glaring at the lumber down to th' lowes puts a very rugged boat to mind. Especially with all the modern goop and such. If I can make a plywood box that don't leak it seems that any one with any skill could make a very stout and tight dory like that.

[marcellsworth]

You can build big dories but t'ain't fun making them outta a single piece of plywood...it's also expensive....just lay up flat planks of fir 1 x 2 or 1 x 3 edge epoxied together and bent and epoxied to the frames...lights sanding and a couple layers of cloth/epoxy over.

This is just the kind of strip planking I had in mind for my 19 foot Cape Ann. 3/4 inch bottom and 3/8 inch sides. I'll do a prototype in plywood from one of the big box stores to work out any bugs in the design. I know, it's not nearly as good as real marine plywood, but it's only about 20% of the cost. I've actually had good results using that stuff for super cheap, quick-n-dirty boats - as long as it's properly encased in glass and epoxy. Then, when/if I'm happy with the design, do a quality build of strip.

Working up construction plans for all three methods (sheet ply, strip plank, and traditional plank) is really pretty simple and straightforward. At least for a dory type hull. This thread has been really good brain fodder; lots of questions. How small can it scale? How big? How heavy is too heavy, and how light is too light? How much sail area? I suspect everyone will answer these differently, depending on how they plan to use the boat. And their personal preferences. Thanks guys!

Marc

Edited to add: I've come to think of a dory as sort of a cross between a canoe and a sharpie...

[perldog007]

Although more expensive, wouldn't 1/2 ply be stronger than dressed 1by boards?

[TerryLL]

Although more expensive, wouldn't 1/2 ply be stronger than dressed 1by boards?

I don't know that quality ply would be more expensive than quality solid lumber. Ply would certainly produce a stiffer hull and one that would happily live on a trailer. Construction time would be lower with ply. The hull shape of a large banks-type dory is certainly perfectly suited to ply construction.

There was a guy named Ed Opheim who built heavy planked dories from the local spruce on an island up near Kodiak. His story and boat pics were featured in WB #43. Definitely worth a read.

[marcellsworth]

Now here is a question we can go round and round with. I don't think that there is a clear winner on which is the best build method. I personally love to build traditional plank on frame, but many have expressed the opinion that it's not the best method if your boat is going to live on a trailer. Ply is quick and makes a quality hull; it lives happily on a trailer. The issue with plywood is that the good stuff, BS1088, just keeps getting pricier. The best price I can get on 1/2" BS1088 is about $75-80 a sheet, plus a three to four hour round trip to get it. Strip generally works a bit less, IF you can source your lumber locally and IF you don't count your time. I don't think there is much difference in quality of hull. Workmanship is far more important than method. Strip is definitely slower; not a big deal if you enjoy the process. So build it however you want - just BUILD it.

Marc

[perldog007]

I like to use, at this infantile stage of my boat building obsession, what I can get locally and with little hassle. That means $#!7 ply...... So for my next build I will be taking a day trip to get marine ply.

I have to agree that workmanship is more important in all but extreme cases. There are some old plywood and old plank boats 'round here that are still tight. Plenty of both that aren't ....

[perldog007]

Back to the fleet in B-town circa 1900... Chapelle has the two masted dory in ACSC as an example of the sailing dories favored by the Sicilian fishermen in Boston circa 1890. Then Gardner in BCSC writes about the first swampscott sailing dory to get an engine around 1908.

Is there any reason to think the rigs in the 26' Cape Ann dories may have been similar to the rigs used in the big swampscotts?

[TerryLL]

Back to the fleet in B-town circa 1900... Chapelle has the two masted dory in ACSC as an example of the sailing dories favored by the Sicilian fishermen in Boston circa 1890. Then Gardner in BCSC writes about the first swampscott sailing dory to get an engine around 1908.

Is there any reason to think the rigs in the 26' Cape Ann dories may have been similar to the rigs used in the big swampscotts?

The sprit ketch and the leg of mutton ketch were common rigs for all kind of working boats in the 20-30 foot range. If those large Swampscotts carried sail, that's the likely rig. Sharpies, of course, had their own unique rig that was vertically reefed.

Ben Fuller would be the guy to talk to about those old rigs, a member here.

[perldog007]

In some of Gardner's illustrations and pics you can see thole pins on big dories and the St. Pierres look like the oars are stowed in a manner that indicates usage.

Also, on one of the deck plans there looks like a hole for a mast in a forward thwart, but no centerboard on the round sided power dory.


I guess my biggest curiosity is whether or not 28-30' swampscott dories were employed before there were motors.

Reading Anthony Bailey's account of the BIlly Ruffian and poring over the lines and offsetts for the 28'-6" power dory in BCSC has me wondering what kind of playboat it would make with a sailing rig.

Sadly, I don't know that I will be able to afford an experiment to find out. A non-planing boat in that size range would be a real pain to unload around here, not much market for pleasure motor boats that won't go fast enough to kill everybody on board very quickly.

When I read Gardner talking about the Sicilian fishermen being willing to row 15-20 miles in a day, that has me thinking A/B or smaller but they were most likely tough hombres, just like the fishermen all over the world who live out of smalll craft.

[James McMullen]

I'm willing to row 15-20 miles in one day. . . but only for pleasure. Wouldn't want to have to do it.

[perldog007]

I'm willing to row 15-20 miles in one day. . . but only for pleasure. Wouldn't want to have to do it.

Speaking of rowing, in another thread you posted a pic of a red plywood chebacco you had been aboard. It looks like some pretty bodacious oars in the pic. Did you ever try to row that boat? Did the skipper use oar auxillary to the exclusion of any kind of motor?

What would you say is the largest displacement boat currently powered by oars on a regular basis? Not counting for big ole boats moved by Yuloh or sweep of course.

Also, how far do you imagine a human could push a 28 or 30' 6'5" beam swampscott full of fish and gear before busting their boiler? ( in the calm, no wind to sail )

[James McMullen]

I can't imagine anyone wanting to do that. 20' Rowan is the absolute maximum size that I want to row for 20 miles in one day by myself. She was built up to that limit. The advantages of a larger, heavier, wider boat are not worth the extra effort it takes to row it for me. In fact, some folks would find Rowan a bigger and heavier boat than is pleasurable to row, but I have settled upon the compromise between rowing and sailing that suits me personally in her.

That Chebacco was outfitted with oars so that it could participate in a RAID. The experiment was not particularly successful nor enjoyable from what I've heard. The guy who built that boat later built a Ness Yawl specifically as a RAID boat I've heard.

More people rowing can mean a much bigger boat. I've enjoyed a short turn as the cox of Verite, a 38' ten-oared gig, though. Midships oars alone on these gigs are 18' long just by themselves, and my sweep was 20 feet.

http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/5349/2060461380088484686S500x500Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2060461380088484686OLbUqx) http://inlinethumb13.webshots.com/17228/2074141630088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2074141630088484686GZUIWp)
http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/44380/2404448130088484686S500x500Q85.jpg (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2404448130088484686KFaTCv)

That's a big-ass rowboat. I don't think there are many bigger ones regularly in use.

I don't think a single human by themselves would find any recreational enjoyment from rowing a 30' Swampscott in any conditions, dead calm or not. If it were dead calm I b'lieve you'd stick your penknife in the mast and start whistling for all you're worth.

[Daniel Noyes]

Rowing

I entered the Essex River race last year with the Alpha and rowing with a novice seascout rower (he said it was his 5th time out) we finished the 5.5 mile course in 1hr 28 min.

The high freeboard of sail and oar boats, dories and european type designs, can have a big affect on rowing ability in strong wind.

A dory is an exceptionally seaworthy small boat, they typically have a good amount of free board to keep water and spray out of the boat and keep the rower dry. This freeboard can be a real drag when rowing into a wind of 20 mph or greater, and will stop most dories dead in the water at 30+- mph.

Sail and oar boats in general are also are relatively wide for their lenght so generally they are not "fast" row boats when compared with a rowing shell or even a whitehall type. The ergonomics of a well designed dorie are such that a dory can be rowed at 3+- mph for hours and hours.

The simple leg-o-mutton or sprit sail rig is a great compliment to the dory because if the wind is strong the boat can be sailed and if the wind is light it can be rowed, making progress toward a destination quite predictable regardless of wind conditions.

[Daniel Noyes]

When I read Gardner talking about the Sicilian fishermen being willing to row 15-20 miles in a day, that has me thinking A/B or smaller but they were most likely tough hombres, just like the fishermen all over the world who live out of smalll craft.

the other part of rowing on the North Shore of mass besides wind and wave is Tide we have a 8-12' rise and fall along most of the coast and the rate of flow really depends on the local geography of the shore line and marshes but there is usually at least a 1-2 mph current typically 3 mph and 6-7 mph + in localized areas like river mouths or cuts'

the old timesrs worked the water by using the tide.
I have been rowing shell fishing for the past year, I row down river with the tide dig while the tide is out and row back with the incoming tide.

[dredbob]

[QUOTE..the old timesrs worked the water by using the tide.[/QUOTE]

Amen, Dan.

The larger working boats that used oars sailed when they could, rowed in a calm, and planned their working days to make use of the local tidal currents to get in and out of port.

For a good description of early 20th century yachting before motors were common, read just about any of Maurice Griffith's anthologies of cruising yarns.

Bob

[perldog007]

In one of the BCSC pics, I can see smaller dories sitting on top of long dories in the water. Can't figure what that's all about. One of the 20' power dories in BCSC also has thole pins in the lines drawing, but the pic of the 30' boat does not seem to have a rowing station or any oars on board.

Bob thanks for that lead, I'll hit up my library and see if I can find any of his work. I am starting to think that the giant dories like the st. Pierre and 28' swampscott came along after folks started using motors.

[Daniel Noyes]

In one of the BCSC pics, I can see smaller dories sitting on top of long dories in the water. .

my guess would be the small dories are being used to tend nets like sein boats are used off a larger boat

[perldog007]

I think the most puzzling pic of all is that one in BCSC of the Emmons 20' powered dory. The lines drawing shows only a motor boat. The catalog pic shows oarlock sockets, mast partner, and centerboard case in addition to the motor.

Also in TDB, those oars on the St. Pierre dories look like they are being used because they are 'on top' and not covered by any gear but they are over other gear, I can't imagine that rowing one of those suckers is any fun.

I am thinking about using thole pins on my GLD, does anybody have any experience with those?

[Daniel Noyes]

yeah I know the photo your talking about.
My guess would be auxilary sail incase something went wrong with the motor or the centerboard coul probably be used for better manuvering the boat or possibly making it be more controllable in a extreme head wind or quartering wind.
are you acually considering a large swampscott build?

tholes would be disappointing on a GLD
there is a bit of oar movement forward and aft in the tholes and on a small quick rowing boat like a GLD the lost stroke efficiency will be really obvious. With a long oar in a heavy working type hull at lower speed the slack between the pins is far less noticeable.
also with experience (quite a bit) you will find your oars are clunking a lot less, a long full oar stroke will take up the slack space between the tholes and give a smoother stroke.

[perldog007]

I really like your A/B Dan, but actually the 16' modified in BCSC or the Dion would make more sense for me. I want to take my time with the GLD and do some rowing later in the season, especially September and October - warmer water and fewer tourons.

That should give me a better handle on what size boat will work for me.

Mostly I am just curious about large swampscotts. Really enjoyed 'The Thousand Dollar Yacht' and wonder why somebody wouldn't have tried that with a big round sided dory.

[TerryLL]

I met a lady at a trade show this weekend (not boat related) and she went on and on about how wonderful her GLD is. Makes me wonder why I don't have one.

I picked her out in a crowd of about 500 similar ladies because she was the only one with a WB hat and T shirt on. It was the right choice, and we had a great conversation.

[Daniel Noyes]

I think youll be very happy with the gld
keep in mind it really is about the smallest dory for it's length around.
for sigle handed camp cruisihg I'd agree with you that the Alpha may be more than you need, I think it is very doable but is really ideal as a 2 person camper.
also take a look at the Nahant Dory 17' navy stock boat in The Dory Book

[gibetheridge]

Quote: "I am thinking about using thole pins on my GLD, does anybody have any experience with those?"

I was kayaking with a friend and met a couple in a home built swampscott with double tholes, asked him how he liked them and he said they were OK but that in rough water or alongside a dock or boat they could get broken off, or break the oar, since they limit the range of motion. It seems to me that a single thole with a lanyard would be better.

[Jamie Orr]

[QUOTE=James McMullen;2616238]I can't imagine anyone wanting to do that. 20' Rowan is the absolute maximum size that I want to row for 20 miles in one day by myself. She was built up to that limit. The advantages of a larger, heavier, wider boat are not worth the extra effort it takes to row it for me. In fact, some folks would find Rowan a bigger and heavier boat than is pleasurable to row, but I have settled upon the compromise between rowing and sailing that suits me personally in her.

That Chebacco was outfitted with oars so that it could participate in a RAID. The experiment was not particularly successful nor enjoyable from what I've heard. The guy who built that boat later built a Ness Yawl specifically as a RAID boat I've heard.QUOTE]

I rowed another Chebacco in the same raid. Mine is/was set up pretty well for rowing and I used 12 foot oars, but it was still a pig to row. The best I ever did in a sprint was 3 knots, checked by GPS both ways, but I could keep up 2 knots for a long time. We did a couple of 20 mile days with only a little help from the wind. The Chebacco is about 5 feet breadth at the water line with a length of 18 or 19 feet.

I rowed in the same raid 2 years later in the Ness Yawl (neither of us wanted to row a Chebacco again!). That's a much nicer boat to row, although still a chore. I thought it would have been enjoyable if we hadn't been racing.

Jamie

[jsjpd1]

I am thinking about using thole pins on my GLD, does anybody have any experience with those?

We use thole pins on our boat, and they work great. But ours is definitely a big heavy boat and we're not really rowers (unless we run out of wind).

http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu186/jsjpd1/P6051441.jpg

[Daniel Noyes]

in theory tholes should be light enough to break before the oar, but it doesnt always work that way, tholes were popular on working boats where the oars were continually in use and shiped out of the way, I havnt used a single thole and strap but imagine it takes a little more time to start and stop rowing with them than with tholes or oar locks...I would bite the bullet and spend the money for a good set of oar locks, youll be happy you did, if your gona go cheepy on oar locks I think tholes would be a nicer alternative

[perldog007]

I am toying with a way to put thole pins on a beveled block (inboard of the sheer) in a fashion that if they don't work out, I can whack them with the saw and use side mount oar lock sockets on the same blocks.. Already have some nice locks for my pond punt. Can't row both at once so would only need to buy the sockets...... unless I had to have two rowers on my Gull, which is rather unlikely.


I like the looks of thole pins, but am guessing there is a reason that modern oarlocks replaced them...

[James McMullen]

The nice thing about tholes is how you can jump your oar out of them when coming alongside. . . . . . . . . . but that's about the only thing I like about them. Given a choice, I generally prefer oarlocks.

[dredbob]

I started reading the book _John G Alden and his Yacht Designs_ and there is a reference to one of the boats he owned as teenager, a Dorchester Bay Dory, 21 feet, decked, lapstrake, built in Neponset, Mass. These were class boats, ie a bunch were built the same for racing. Anyone heard of these or have any more info about them? There is a small grainy photo in the book, they are nice looking boats. Photo is dated 1903. I've never seen any other reference to them before.

Bob

[BrianM]

I had thole pins in my Bank Dory and liked them very much. You get a very satifying "clunk-clunk" with each stroke as the oar strikes the aft-then-forward thole pin on recovery. Make sure you leave enough clearance in the pin to hole diameters to allow you to readily pop them out. Mine were parallel to the frames, but you might consider drilling them vertically if coming alongside a larger craft is a priority to prevent scuffing the larger boats' topsides. Nobody steals thole pins so you don't have to worry about securing your sacred set of bronze museum-ready rowlocks.

They are not as easy to unship as rowlocks, so falling on top of them can be hazardous, but on the other hand, would you rather fall onto a 1" diameter blunt dowell, or a tapered piece of bronze that narrows to 1/8"?

Better yet, use good smallboat handling skills, and don't fall!

[perldog007]

Brian, do you also sail that banks dory? If so, I would like to hear some particulars on the rig and how she handles, if'n you can.

[Daniel Noyes]

Perl
I've sailed 2 bank dories, chapelle H+G and Gardner coastguard dory, they are relatively slow because of weight and hull shape and like small sail area, but they will chug along quite predictably and take very rough water with out any fuss. The banks dories generally sail with their real right down on the water, they apear to be below water when the boat is chugging along in a strong breeze as the hull wave forms right along the rail, the stern wave will come high at the transom.
both boats I sailed had no center board so they did not point well mabey 75-80 degrees off the wind before stalling and side slipping.
I sailed the Coastguard dory from Salisbury to Gloucester and had the story published in Messing about int Boats magazine.

[perldog007]

That's pretty impressive, the heeling must help out to get that close without any kind of keel or CB. We used to try and sail our little sailfish without the daggerboard for kicks, it was hard to manage a broad reach ( for us anywho )


I am thinking too far ahead though, my GLD is giving me an apoplexy trying to get one of the hull panels butt joined.

[BrianM]

Brian, do you also sail that banks dory? If so, I would like to hear some particulars on the rig and how she handles, if'n you can.

I did set her up to sail. The Bank Dory sailed a little better than this 8' punt that I had slapped leeboards,
a rudder, and a latten sail on when I was 11 years old. The point of including this "punt" in the conversation
is that you can get anything to sail if you correctly position the center of lateral resistance against
the center of pressure.. it may just not do it very well. What is your pain threshold?

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d738b3127ccec273a7ce05a000000010O00FZsWrly3Yg9 vPhw/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

I'd much rather have a Swampscott or Alpha multichined hull. Sailing on your ear in one huge lunge,
tack to tack is not pleasant. The chine seems to dig in and steer the boat more than the rudder at
times.

If I were a fisherman lost at sea, I'd be happy I was in a dory for sake of survival, but I won't be
building another Bank Dory for sailing.

[perldog007]

That's good to know, it now is starting to look like I will make my target launch for the GLD by labor day, that should break me of wanting to sail a banks dory along with what I have read on here.

[wtarzia]

...The point of including this "punt" in the conversation
is that you can get anything to sail if you correctly position the center of lateral resistance against
the center of pressure....

--- As shown by the seemingly popular Puddle Duck Racer (PDR), basically a box -- with rocker -- 4 feet wide and 8 feet long. Ugliest things I ever saw -- makes any Banks dory see the height of speed and style -- but people are enjoying them and doing some serious sailing in them -- always a gaggle of them entered in the Texas 200 raid-event, and they do well for what they are. Just saw a photo of one in a new configuration -- inflatable outriggers, a fore-aft bipod mast (or transom-stepped mast and luff pole???) and sail on bowsprit. Photo at the Texas 200 update on Duckworks Magazine. -- sorry for the off-topic msg, sorta--Wade

[wtarzia]

Perl
I've sailed 2 bank dories, chapelle H+G and Gardner coastguard dory, they are relatively slow because of weight and hull shape and like small sail area, but they will chug along quite predictably and take very rough water with out any fuss. ....

--- Seems as if a Banks dory, if made of plywood, would be great with water ballast tanks, to sink them more or less to the waterline that a load of fish (their 'operational' design waterline) would bring, when the Banks dory gains good stability.

I see sometimes a photo of an older couple, who hang out with the Wooden Boat people in Maine, sailing and rowing a traditional Banks dory. Apparently they go year round. They must find some excellent qualities in this boat despite its sluggish performance -- maybe it is so tough to handle it has kept them strong over the years, which is as good a reason to have a Banks dory as any?

I once rented the 19 ft Banks dory to row on the Merrimack before Lowell's Boatshop II (or was it III or IV? I can't keep up any more) gave it away, and yup, it was a work out, definitely a boat that would encourage you to learn the tide cycle and the counter-flows on the river! I just donated my 11 ft Salisbury Point dory-skiff back to Lowells since I couldn't properly care for it in my too-small yard with too many boats. I must drop by to visit the old girl. -- Wade

[wtarzia]

... I'd like to see someone steering with their foot or between the legs with a push pull or harder still lines. :)

--- Ha, pleasant memories of sailing my dory-skiff in a good wind often with the tiller under the crook of my knee, jib sheet in one hand and the mainsheet in the other, and my other leg employed to hook a foot under a riser as I leaned out. :-) Couldn't maintain that mode for too long before the course needed a bigger adjustment than my leg could provide, but it was sure memorable. --Wade

[Daniel Noyes]

sounds like perfect sailing form to me.

thats getting to what keeps people sailing dorys and skiffs, sailing back up river with the rising tide and dying wind after a day at the beach. I particularly enjoy cutting in close to the bankings or sailing right over and through our grass islands in the marsh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIJIXSC5C-Q&feature=related
also heading off shore then turning for the broad reach into the Anisquam river is real nice sailing roaring in along the rocky coast on the port and the beautifull fine sand of Wingersheek beach on Starboard.

[TerryLL]

Nice article in the July 2010 issue of the Fisherman's News about the dories used on the Alaska halibut schooners in the early 1900s.

These were banks dories from the Hiram Lowell shop, 19' OA, 15' on the bottom. One of the better looking banks dories in my opinion, with a very nice sheer. Originally rigged for sail and oar, but later converted to outboard.

[BillAnderson]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_yaEpx5u2uyA/S9xvA721eCI/AAAAAAAAB8Y/Gc43PbxP6pg/s640/DSC00631.JPG

http://picasaweb.google.at/Pateplumaboat/BuildingPateplumaAmberjackSticklebackSwampscottDor yDesignIainOughtred?feat=directlink#54663661043035 97650

Thank you for the very detailed photographs! I am considering building the John Dory, and your photos are most helpful. Patepluma is a beautiful boat, you must be very pleased.

[Daniel Noyes]

looking forward to seeing how John Gardners specified sail rig will perform on the Alpha dory! I'm working on a new set of spars at the moment and a pro set of sails from Downs sail loft and all new rigging is on the way.

I know alot is said on the Forum about the lug rig having the shortest spars so some may not be impressed, but I am quite happy with the size and light weight, quite compact spars of the original Alpha rig.
17' mast
15.5' boom
for a 21' boat.

how much shorter are the spars for a Cal Yawl or similar size sail and oar boat?

[riverat]

For many years now I have had the plans to Wm. Atkins "Merry Weather" a 22'6" dory . She has an absolutely flat bottom, no rocker at all, a "pirogue" rig and solid timber fin with 400 lbs of lead. Has anyone seen one of these boats around and how do you think she would handle. Regards Ray

[perldog007]

I will accept the prevailing wisdom that the Bolger light Dory is not one you want to stand up in. I have one on saw horses in my back lot. http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww264/perldog007/IMGP0992.jpg

Terry LL says his 23' Cape Ann was too heavy to row, and I believe him. Is there a banks dory size that is big enough to stand in and say fly cast or scull with one oar over the transom but light enough to row a fair distance? Could the 23' Cape Ann be made light enough to row, maybe lighten a couple of frames, use 1/4" okume covered in 6oz glass for sides, 3./8 okume on the bottom?

Interested in hearing opinions, theoretical and those with experience.

[TerryLL]

Terry LL says his 23' Cape Ann was too heavy to row, and I believe him. Is there a banks dory size that is big enough to stand in and say fly cast or scull with one oar over the transom but light enough to row a fair distance? Could the 23' Cape Ann be made light enough to row, maybe lighten a couple of frames, use 1/4" okume covered in 6oz glass for sides, 3./8 okume on the bottom?

Interested in hearing opinions, theoretical and those with experience.

You could certainly build a Cape Ann light enough to row, but rowing it would be a challenge. These boats excel when they are significantly ballasted but are very squirrely when empty and light. if you want a decent rowing dory in the 22' range you need look no further than the Alpha Beachcomber. But bear in mind, most 22' boats will be a handful for a single rower. My 18' John Dory at 220 pounds was just about perfect for two rowers, and a bit much for one rower in any kind of wind.

[TerryLL]

I know alot is said on the Forum about the lug rig having the shortest spars so some may not be impressed, but I am quite happy with the size and light weight, quite compact spars of the original Alpha rig.
17' mast
15.5' boom
for a 21' boat.

how much shorter are the spars for a Cal Yawl or similar size sail and oar boat?

Dan,
The lug rig for the CY has a 16-9 mast, 11-4 boom, and 13-4 yard. The gunter has a 17-0 mast, 12-2 gaff, and 9-8 boom.

I'd really like to get a performance report on the standard Alpha rig for your AB, and more videos would be a treat.

[perldog007]

Can anybody hazard a guess at the dimensions of the Banks dory shown in action on page 143 of 'The Dory Book'? That one looks like it's stable enough to work out of, obviously got to where it was under oars.

[TerryLL]

Looks to be 18' more or less. IMHO the Lowell CG dory shown on page 145 is one of the finest looking banks dories ever drawn. Big enough for a small drop-in well for a small outboard. Need some weight down low in these boats to make them behave. Tired of that GLD already?

[perldog007]

Terry, I haven't even splashed the GLD yet, and can't see ever not wanting to have a rowboat that can car top. I am thinking ahead to the modeling stage of picking my next build. I made models of the Cartopper, Piccup Squared, Juneug, and the light dory before deciding on the ( in my estimation) pretty row boat.

I'm still in love with my Big Tortoise. Now I have a rowing punt for ponds and a rowing vessel that can hopefully handle some more lively waters. Thinking ahead to a trailer day sailing and minor adventure boat with oar auxillary. Looks to me like that dory in the picture is big enough to stand up and work in, would appear that the fisherman got her there under oars. I wouldn't want to car top that sucker though, no how no way!

I also have to read the Sharpie Book and try to loft/build a 1/8 scale model of an Alpha beach, all by February :D

I think I would love an Alpha beach, but just got my butt handed to me building the GLD. I will make/beat my post labor day goal, but had to make some real concessions in fit and finish after those joint failures gave me a serious set back.

Maybe a model will put it into better perspective. Haven't even definitely decided on a dory, but I so have the hots for they way the look. Especially those slab sided banks dories. There is something really neat about that Alpha Beach too, also, as well...

[Daniel Noyes]

Hi pearl yeah the I've had the GLD out in 5' chop haqppily riding over the crests like a sea bird, very relaxing and exciting at the same time, you know your alive.

we have the coast guard dorys at the rowing club, they are very capable and like terry said big enough to take a out board well. they are too big for most people to row single in anything but no current and no wind. before the CG dorys we had the 16' over all 12' bottom (12' dory) boats from Chapelle's american small craft Higgins and Gifford model from the 1880's much easier to row, narrower bottoms with more flare, about half way between a GLD and the Coastguard dory, they could also sail quite well and shoud really perform with a centerboard.

[James McMullen]

PD, I think you could indeed build a pretty lapstrake Dory with your woodworking skills if you had a little bit of help kitting one up. You know Clint Chase can provide you with a kit of his Deblois St. Dory, right? And Jordan Boats can get you a kit of an Oughtred John Dory. And Clint or maybe Dan or even myself could probably put together a kit of an Alpha Dory for you to complete. The simplest and easiest kit of all would be the CLC Northeaster Dory which I think looks pretty darn nice, and yet is not really any harder to put together than your GLD other than the number of pieces because of the very user friendly patented Lapstitch building method. You've come so far. . .don't regress back to crude, square boats now! How can we help?

[perldog007]

Thanks James, I am going to try and model an Alpha beach this winter. I noticed that CLC sells plans with full size patterns for around a benjamin, that might be another route to consider. I still have to decide whether I want a sailboat I can row or a rowboat that can sail.

The only thing I am convinced of at this point is that I want something that can sail, that I could stand up in under calm conditions, and I don't want a motor so I have to be able to move it under oars. I would like to do a better job of finishing than on my GLD, but still want to haul crab pots, a clam rake, etc, etc,

I fear that my crude square boat will hold a place in my heart. It's kind of cool rolling up on a guy who spent a small mortgage on his truck/bass boat and seeing the look on his face when you pull up your stringer and head to the scales at the local tournament...

[Daniel Noyes]

OK Pearl here's my take,
sell your GLD for price of materials+ and take a big profit in the building experience and confidence.
then
get Gardners plans for the 13.5' Chamberlain Dory Skiff, this is an extraordinary small boat, it will row just as nice as your GLD but it will sail as good as you could ask a little seaworthy utility skiff to sail, this boat really sails well with the Right rig it feels like a mini Beachcomber-Alpha... I know I have sailed and rowed a fiberglass hull to this design for over 25 yrs.

you will not be disapointed if you build this small managable design carefully and see it through with a quality traditional type rig and sails, this dory skiff is all the genius of Chamberlains Alpha in a small package, worth a look.

[perldog007]

Thanks Dan, I have the dory book. Might have to try and do a model, definitely at least a 1/8 laydown. I am interested in learning how to get out the shape of the planks and build a plywood lapstrake boat. That might not be a bad design to take a look at. I did a scale laydown of the 12'6" swampscott dory tender from Gardner's offsets but really want the next one to sail.

[Daniel Noyes]

The secrete to the success of the Chamberlain dory skiff, and I've talked about this with two other builders, is it's transom, the boat is the same lenght on the bottom and waterline a s a 16' swampscott, it's transom and the fact the hullis carried wide aft that allows it to carry a load and stand up to sail as well as a longer dory shaped hull.

[Bradley]

I've logged over 70,000nm of open seas in this dory. I designed and built her back in '91.

Here is a link to some pictures. There is a link on that page showing pictures of how it was built.

http://lovesthesea.com/category.asp?category=Skiff

[James McMullen]

That 13 foot CHamberlain Dory Skiff was the very first Sail & Oar boat I ever built myself. . .straight out of The Dory Book. A very good little boat! I second Dan's notion!

[PLyTheMan]

Bumping this thread with a couple dory questions!

Any opinions on how one of the ~17' Swampscott Dories from Gardner's Dory Book would perform for sail and oar camp cruising? I've been wanting to build a boat for a few years and was about to settle for something easy like a Puddle Duck or D4/5 punt, but I figure if I'm going to put the time and effort in might as well build something I can take a few friends out on or do some short protected cruising in. It's my assumption that of all the boats I found in ASSC between 15 and 20 feet a dory would be the cheapest and easiest to build. And on the matter of cost/effort building, how would a traditional method stand up to modern epoxy and ply? I'm not really opposed to one being harder than another, but whichever is more cost effective is probably the best way to go. The idea of working with traditional wooden planks and rivets seems a bit more appealing than epoxy and ply, but maybe I'm just being overly romantic about doing things 'the old way'. I'm sure there's a few threads discussing the virtues and pitfalls of each, I'll search around for them, but figured I'd ask in here anyway since dories were traditionally simple to build with relation to other boats. Not sure if that was true only for the Banks or the inclusive of Swampscotts as well.

The Dion Swampscott Dory in particular stood out to me by way of the description of being a good balance between rowing and sailing and is the right length. The Gunning Dory I know is popular, but 19' might be a bit more than I need.

Thanks for the help and entertaining my daydreams of building something that floats!

[Ian McColgin]

The Chamberlain gunning dory behaves rather like the Swampscott - the key design issues are the lower deadrise compared to the slab banks dory and then the two knuckles for the mid strake and shere strake. I really liked my Chamberlain for open boat beach cruising. Great capacity, safe as blazes, great boat.

G'luck

[Daniel Noyes]

a dory is extremely cost effective, especially in relation to it's capabilities, good performance qualities and good load carrying qualities.

Also check out the 17' Nahant Dory, a nice boat, little larger and heavier than the Dion.

Depending on your location a traditional build could be done pretty cheaply, but you will need access to a supply of useable lumber at a fair price, other wise using marine ply takes a lot of the headaches out of sourcing planking stock and is a little quicker build simply because there are fewer pices of wood to fit and fasten... but as you say far less enjoyable than real wood.

[PLyTheMan]

Thanks for the good words of encouragement, Ian!

Dan, I'm in the Merrimack Valley, any advice on where to get my lumber? I'm close to Jackson Lumber, but haven't looked into any pricing anywhere yet, so no idea how they rank.

[wely]

I wonder why the famous dory never became useful in the south. I love to research the history of boats and have always wondered why sharpies and bateaus were the most popular boats in the south where as the dory was predominantly used throughout the rest of the country?

[dredbob]

I wonder why the famous dory never became useful in the south. I love to research the history of boats and have always wondered why sharpies and bateaus were the most popular boats in the south where as the dory was predominantly used throughout the rest of the country?

Probably because the Dory was usually used from a beach onto relatively open waters, while the sharpies and bateaus (pirouges, skiffs) were generally used in somewhat more sheltered waters. Look at a map of the east coast, and you'll see that from NJ on down that the chain of barrier islands is almost unbroken all the way to Florida. The profusion of broad creeks and rivers off of the Chesapeake and the NC sounds meant that much of the harvesting of fish, oysters, and crabs could be done in shallow water close to shore. Same for the lowland marshes through SC and Georgia.

Not that the south didn't have it's share of types meant for the rougher ocean side waters, but there was much less of a need for them.

Chapelle's _American Small Sailing Craft_ and John Gardner's _The Dory Book_ both can shed light on the origins and spread of various types.

Bob

[wely]

I'm Looking for chapelle's and Gardner's books. I have also looked at a book called Tidecraft about boats in the south. I had not thought of the barrier islands being the reason. Thank-you for that little bit of history and geography. I love the history of how we figured out which boats go where.

[Daniel Noyes]

A Dory is a fairly technologically advanced boat that was mass produced in Newengland.

The dory shops of Newengland were factories, Lowells of Amesbury Ma. was builidng 1,500-2,000 boats a year for decades and decades before 1900, and they were one of dozens of shops along the Merrimac, Just up stream on the Merrimac is Lowell and Lawrence and many more famous mill towns, these centers of industry were some of the most technologically sophisticated manufacturing centers in the world, certainly the Americas. Newburyport shares a border with Amesbury and was the location for several major ship yards building record breaking ships like "Dreadnaught" of 1853

The Alpha dory was built at Marblehead Ma. the town next door to Swampscott Ma. in the early 1900's while Chamberlain was building Alphas the biggest employer in Marblehead was the Burgess Airplane Co...

we see dorys as simple boats but there really was a fair amount of industry that made them possible, The south would have been far different, industry wise, and this may have had an influence on the types of boats that got built.

[Spence]

Sucher's plywood bank Oregon Surf is my next project ( 20'). My son and I are doing some Halibut fishing and we want something safe. To heck with speed and chrome. His design has a trolling mast for salmon and has extra beam for handling surf. It has a motor well. I'm thinking of changing the tombstone to a double ender and using the space for extra styro and storage, or, building in a watertight bulkhead at both ends.

I've used standard exterior G1S plywood and FG seams for all my boats and I get a 30year life span out of them when used for occasional use (left in the water or in surrounds I'd use marine). The trick is to build a jig to fill the voids under pressure with mildew resistant silicon and to keep it preserved and painted.

Spence

BTW: Dory banks design standard hulls were well known prior to 1700's in other nations. France,Portugal and Yucatan for instance.

Ref: Simplified Boatbuilding (ISBN 0-393-03173-X)

[wely]

Any word on your Oregon Dory?

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[Hudson3]

Really enjoyed reading through this thread. Dories really are some of the most distinctive boats around. It's impressive how Dory design has been adapted to a variety of uses. I think the Swampscott type shows the design taken to most effective and refined form (while still retaining its work boat character). I was smitten enough by the design to build one (based on John Gardner's "Modified Swampscott Dory"). One of the more demanding and interesting undertakings in my life. Really not a practical boat for me (I went too big and heavy) but the process was wonderful.
Dan that Alpha Dory is beautiful, and nice to see it in it's native habitat (Mass).