Kittiwake 20

[JimD]

I first read about this boat in the February 2002 issue of ClassicBoat. The original was strip planked and based on a 1935 Falmouth Quay punt. It's now manufactured in FG and you can't buy plans so far as I know so what's my point? Well, duh, none really, except it gives me a few idears for the boat I'd like to design.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/p9c1889d0f4c283e19062f5400b495988/f3f1e457.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/p176a977a1b3091e5a47a880bc5d7d371/f3f1d8ba.jpg

There was talk of a sloop rig, too.

[JimD]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/p3c8132b8e3b4245bed10ceca7ff3a923/f3f1d1bf.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/p3d5bf5432e00d1fa9b856b2d71178bfd/f3f1d12a.jpg

[Meerkat]

If one did the raised deck cabin detail, Selway-Fisher's "Port Louis 20" might be mistaken for one of these - only, possibly, prettier!... ;)

[ 05-29-2005, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
If one did the raised deck cabin detail, Selway-Fisher's "Port Louis 20" might be mistaken for one of these - only, possibly, prettier!... ;) Huh? I can't find a 'Port Louis' at SF's site. Where is it?

[MarkC]

Alright, alright - head-room for JimD.

do I start a new thread for this.. no I'll put it in here:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/pb3215c7e30c03e3853022d9cc5a45b82/f3f058a8.jpg

William Garden - Jelly Bean 22' standing headroom

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid170/pc774e00f7567d04e3b257efc0f9349d0/f3f058a7.jpg

this second boat is a:


This is a Mark Ellis designed Nonsuch 22 built by George Hinterhoeller - best of luck - it is out of production - VERY sadly - very easy to bring back from the dead though - search for Mark Ellis or Nonsuch or Niagara Yachts or Hinterhoeller - try www.copernic.com (http://www.copernic.com) ... with thanks to Sean Herron posting on www.boatdesign.net. (http://www.boatdesign.net.)

Oh - and the selway-fisher Port Lois is at:
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htm#LOUIS

Edited to add - Why are my posted pictures so small?

[ 05-29-2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[Venchka]

Where did you find the info. on Jelly Bean? Displacement? Beam?

JimD: I saw the Kittiwake line ages ago. Too heavy. Too deep. To suit me.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Meerkat]

http://www.selway-fisher.com/PLouisp6.jpg

http://www.selway-fisher.com/PLouisp4.jpg

http://www.selway-fisher.com/PLouisp5.jpg

[Meerkat]

Said JimD:
"except it gives me a few idears for the boat I'd like to design."

I think I'm going to stop making suggestions - I posted something the other day on another boat, not too far different from this one, and got no comment at all. Hoo Biss!

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Said JimD:
"except it gives me a few idears for the boat I'd like to design."

I think I'm going to stop making suggestions - I posted something the other day on another boat, not too far different from this one, and got no comment at all. Hoo Biss!And I apologize. It was a very nice boat and I should have said thank you. So I'm saying it now. Thank you, Meerkat! :D (But the bowsprit was a wee bit long for my tastes, as I recall tongue.gif )

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
http://www.selway-fisher.com/PLouisp6.jpg

http://www.selway-fisher.com/PLouisp4.jpg

http://www.selway-fisher.com/PLouisp5.jpgSay! I like this one! Great gobs of freeboard but I'll bet its huge inside. Kinda reminds me of the smaller Lyle Hess catboat that was launched not too long ago by some lucky individual. If I could get plans I could learn enough about design to redraw her for plywood and a centerboard.

Edited to add: I confused myself. Thought this Port Louis was one of them other two boats. I could just pay Paul Fisher a few extra bucks to redraw her for plywood.

[ 05-29-2005, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[JimD]

Looking at the bowsprit on Port Louis it doesn't appear to be longer than I could tolerate, not much room for the infamous headsail slot yet is cutter rigged, not a sloop.

[Venchka]

Great gobs of freedboard? What nautical dictionary did you get that from? :D

Here's an idea of the Port Louis lines.

http://www.selway-fisher.com/PLouisd1.gif

http://www.selway-fisher.com/PLouisp2.jpg

Changing those lines for plywood is a flogging offense in most civilized parts of the world. :eek:

Aye, some folks play fast and loose with the cutter rig.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 05-29-2005, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[JimD]

Hmmm, somehow looked like more 'freedboard' in the photos. Civilized? This is Alberta. Ain't no need fer none of them civilized folks out here. :D Durn right I'd turn her into plywood. She'd make a dandy multichine. But first I have to design me own boat :eek:

[Meerkat]

Hard to know whether or not the Port Louis in the pics is faithful to the thumbnail sketches.

She was designed for Mauritius Island ( 20 17 S, 57 33 E) in the western Indian Ocean, which, IIRC, is Agulhas Current country! Sounds like it could be some rough waters to me!

For some reason I don't quite understand, plumb bows and plywood don't mix well. Something to do with the developability of something or other... ;)

[ 06-02-2005, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[JimD]

For some reason I don't quite understand, plumb bows and plywood don't mix well. Something to do with the developability of something or other...
I think its more a case of the majority of designers for plywood aren't interested in plumb bows. The dudley dix boats are just about plumb and there are others. The only real difference between twisting a plywood bottom panel to meet a plumb stem as opposed to a spoon stem is the shape of the forward edge of the plywood, ie is it cut with a curve to form a spooned bow or is it cut straight and squarish to form a straight plumb stem. Getting enough twist might require laminating two thinner layers of ply, though.

Edited to add: I suppose if by plumb you meant that the stem met the keel at a sharp right angle that might pose a bit of a problem

[ 06-02-2005, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Venchka]

I knew the Kittiwake 20 looked familiar. I dug out my copy of WATER CRAFT, Jan/Feb 2002. Same boat. Same day. Same folks. Same reef. Really nice 20' boat. The cabin is quite functional. A whopping 13.5 hp diesel. Two freshwater tanks. 4,480/2,645 Displacement/Ballast. You could go far, Pilgrim, in a boat like this.

And now, for the rest of the story. 33,000 pounds Sterling. OUCH!

Jim, what did the ClassicBoat reviewer say about the sail plan?

Nice boat. Not nice enough perhaps for a liveaboard. I would have to sell the farm to buy one.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

CB says 'in medium strength winds... the small sails are easily handled...yawl rigged...easy to balance...in light windss there's little sail cloth...to catch the wind.

The biggest criticism seems to be saved for the bow which 'looks likely to plunge into large seas.

[JimD]

CB October 2002 has a review of a Laurent Giles gaff cutter, the Joshua Matthew, about 20' lod, raised deck, in chined plywood that looks just about right but I can't find anything on line about her.

Edited to add: It has a one meter long bowsprit and a genuine cutter rig, leaving little doubt that a three foot slot between stay and head sails ought to be enough for a small cutter.

[ 06-03-2005, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Venchka]

Good luck with Laurent Giles. They seem to have taken the Antonio Diaz approach to the internet. "Here is our address. Send money. We will get back to you." Perhaps too harsh on my part, but they aren't courting customers like you and I. A few years back they had all the wee boats up on the 'net. The "new and improved" web page is aimed at gold platers. Try an email about their 20' designs. Somebody there might be paying attention.

If the staysail is tacked on deck, a 1 meter bowsprit would yield a wider slot too.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 06-03-2005, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[JimD]

If the staysail is tacked on deck, a 1 meter bowsprit would yield a wider slot too. You just don't give in, do you, Wayne. :D The staysail is tacked at the very forward inch of the stem. There ain't no more than a meter 'tween the two. A yard or so is all that is needed, according to Laurent Giles and it would appear quite a few other designers.

But this is scary. Worth a read: http://laurentgiles.com/index.html Not exactly a glowing testimonial to the designers at Laurent Giles Ltd.

[ 06-03-2005, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Venchka]

Criminal. Scratch them off the list.

I do find it humorous that the client took the incomplete yacht home to finish it because "the steel was being stored outdoors and subject to rust." Say what? He needed a healthy dose of reality, and a visit to any ship building or offshore oil platform yard. "Blast to white metal and coat with the specified coating system." That's what you do with steel.

Shaking my head and muttering.

The list of boats that the designers didn't get right without post launch modifications is growing. Do you see a pattern here? I better finish that thought lest I leave the wrong impression. If old, respected design firms botch a design, what hope does a first timer have? EH? :eek: ;)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

It does make me wonder if less than entirely scrupulous new designers are simply purchasing the rights to use old repected names for their marquee value such that Laurent Giles Ltd the name bears little resemblance to Lauren Giles the designer. As for designing my own I prefer to see the glass half full. Can I do much worse than these guys? :D

[Venchka]

Nope, I reckon not. Kinda hard to build a boat that doesn't float with the bottom down. Go ahead. Prove me wrong!

Wayne
Temporarily absent In the Swamp :D

[Steve Paskey]

Unbelievable. Don't forget to note the conduct of the Royal Institution of Naval Architects.

Of the two men who designed the boat, one was no longer an RINA member, and no action was taken. The other was "reprimanded" -- privately, not publicly.

What'd they do? Take him into the library at their clubhouse on Upper Belgrave Street in London (pictured below) and give him a stern talking to?

http://www.rina.org.uk/images/library.jpg

Apparently, hiring an N.A. who's a member of R.I.N.A. is no assurance of anything.

[ 06-05-2005, 07:44 AM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]