Could this be a good boat? Help me pick the right boat please.

[Old Dryfoot]

NOTE: I have revised and edited my original posting as I have realized that I do not full understand what I am looking for. :confused:

I would like to build a small affordable design in ply that I can learn to sail and which could also be used for occasional fishing trips, and overnight camping. I know that it would make sense to start with something simple and small like a dingy but I would like to have something a little more versatile. Please read below starting at post #15 for what I would like to find in a small boat for learning on.

Thank you for any help you can offer.

[Hwyl]

If you can't sail get something tried and tested, otherwise whn you are wallowing, you are always going to blame the boat, when usually it would be you. Any of the small daysailers would be good.

[James McMullen]

That reminds me of a St. Pierre Dory. Simple dory hulls like that are not particularly renowned for their sailing qualities, though. I think that sort of hull is better suited to a powerboat than it is to a sailboat. I fear you will at best have a sub-mediocre sailer with those general lines and proportions. Phil Bolger goes on in fairly good detail in one of his books about what it takes to transform a simple dory into a decent sailboat. . .maybe someone remembers which book and what chapter?

With modern stitch and glue plywood techniques, there are much more sophisticated and suitable hulls you can build with no more money or effort than that dory. Maybe look at Sam Devlin's Arctic Tern for a very similarly sized, hard-chine plywood boat that is a known and proven good sailer.

http://images.traderonline.com//img/6/dealer/6331422/93819891_1thumb_550x410.jpg http://images.traderonline.com//img/6/dealer/6331422/93819891_4thumb_550x410.jpg

[Old Dryfoot]

Hwyl, thank you for the advice, do you have any recommendations? I was thinking of something like a small pram. I like Paul Fisher's Skylark 9, it should suit someone of my umm stature... :rolleyes:
It would need to be something I can haul out by hand and store cheaply at a marina or secure launch site, I hate cars and don't drive.

James I have looked at Mr Devlin's work at length and have even caught myself thinking of building Moss Rock as a simple live aboard. I do love the look of Arctic Tern and have stared at Wompus Cat for hours. I sort of have a thing for catboats...
One of the reasons I was thinking of a dory is I really like the idea of sitting in the boat as opposed to on it, would a dory's greater freeboard allow this? I should add that I don't really care if it is a slow ride, but I like safe which is the very definition of a dory I think. I was also thinking of the boat ultimate life expectancy given that it will live on a mooring and not in a slip. Smaller decks, along with a smaller easy to tarp cockpit. I think a creative dodger and some canvas could allow for dryer sailing in wet weather too from what I can imagine of other designs.

You are dead on with the St Pierre assessment. Glenn L's 27' Jean Pierre, I want something like this a little shorter I think, which can sail.

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9846/029jpdorymod331.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9846/029jpdorymod331.jpg)

I also really like the 25' Coaster but wonder if the motor sailor approach could get me in trouble if caught in weather, or moored during a winter storm?

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3007/dsncsta7.jpg

If you would also sir... which hull shape would be more economical? Is this splitting hairs when dealing with outboards of 10 to 15 horsepower?

[Steve Paskey]

If you're dead set on the sailing dory idea, you might look at Jay Benford's 26-foot raised deck cutter. There's background and specs on all of Jay's dories here, but scroll down for a link to more on the 26-footer:

www.benford.us/index.html?dories/

Benford is best known for his 34-foot sailing dory Badger, the boat in Annie Hill's book "Voyaging on a Small Income." According to Jay, the 26-footer is capable of the same sort of voyaging, except that she obviously can't carry as much in the way of supplies, etc.

[Steve Paskey]

Another option is Ted Brewer's Grand Banks 22, a small ketch with a ballasted dory hull. According to Ted, several dozen have been built and they've proven themselves in rough weather, and at least one "has made the passage to Alaska and return."

www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/grandbanks22.htm

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/images/Grand-Banks-22---layout-&-p.gif

[Modelbuilder24/7]

Hello, I just read the following information that you said you were looking for in your boat... I think I have just the right boat for you...
The name of the boat is the " Columbia MKII , designed by Bill Trip.This boat was from 1976, but has been restored to a better standard.It is a sailboat, and they're only asking for $3,200 for it. The following items/equipment, are already equiped in this boat:
• Electric stove
• GPS, Sonar
• VHF
• twin deep cycles with auto chargers
• AM, FM, CD, with 22" HDTV with mast antenna
• AC, Windows PC with WiFi
• 2 new gas cans, 2 new fuse panels
• New rope halyards
• And I believe their are two single bunks.

If you need any further information on the Columbia MKII you can
check out: www.sailboatlistings.com/view/17390 , for
further information...

[Old Dryfoot]

Thank you Steve, I live in Victoria and have watched his little 20' ferry scoot around the harbor outside my windows for years. It was reading Mr Bedford's 'Small Ships', and about Badger in particular that started me thinking about cruising. I am looking for Annie Hall's book on ebay and intend to read it one day soon. I don't think I have notice the 26' cutter before, I like it and think I'm going to look for some more info on it.

I hope I don't sound like I am stuck on a design, I just started at what is a known safe boat and thought about what I wanted.

On building, can a py on frame be built using construction grade lumber, do I need proper lumber for a boat of this type and intended use?

[Old Dryfoot]

MB, thanks for the lead. I just looked as a nice 25' Coronado locally, they seem to be a well regarded FG boat and it's priced right at 2500.00 ready to sail. Texas is a little far away for me to to buy a boat from.

[Old Dryfoot]

Another option is Ted Brewer's Grand Banks 22, a small ketch with a ballasted dory hull. According to Ted, several dozen have been built and they've proven themselves in rough weather, and at least one "has made the passage to Alaska and return."

www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/grandbanks22.htm (http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/grandbanks22.htm)

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/images/Grand-Banks-22---layout-&-p.gif

Very handsome, I like the ketch rig especially but I don't know if it would hold two weeks plus my gear.

[Cliff B]

There is a pretty sweet vessel on ebay, right now, for $4500...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160431840504&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT

28' and go anywhere....

[Old Dryfoot]

This is interesting, I had not noticed this can also be a ply on frame.
Pioneer
http://www.selway-fisher.com/Pioneerd1.gif

Does anyone have any insight into this design?

[Mad Scientist]

...On building, can a py on frame be built using construction grade lumber, do I need proper lumber for a boat of this type and intended use?

Doug Fir and marine ply is more expensive than generic 'SPF' and exterior grade ply, but why risk your life with cheap materials?

Tom

[CundysHarbor]

Second the Jay Bedford designs. At least they are proven to work. They may not be fast but they are able.
Dave

[Old Dryfoot]

I really like this type of arrangement:


Fore and aft decks
OB Motor in a well if possible
Mast(s) stepped outside of the cockpit
Could be rowed but not necessary
minimal intrusion of any dagger or centerboard trunks into the cockpit if possible
Should be safe and easy to solo in
Simple and quick to build and not too expensive
Interned to be used around southern Vancouver island.

Basically I think I am looking for a smaller Swallow Boats SeaRaider without the price tag. :(
http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/images/stories/swallowboats/searaider/SeaRaider7.jpg

[Old Dryfoot]

I really like the looks of the Caravelle 16 from Bateau.com Would it be possible to configure it to something akin to the SeaRaider?
http://www.bateau.com/prodimages/CV16_300.jpg

There is also the CK 17 is this a suitable for my intent and local waters?
http://www.bateau.com/prodimages/CK17_250.jpg

[James McMullen]

I think you should build a Swallow Boats Sea Raider. The price tag is fair for what you get.

[Old Dryfoot]

Could a Sea Raider really be built economically for my needs?
I see a price for a complete boat of £16995. Allowing for smart shopping and some resourceful scrounging could it be built for say half that amount? Does $12,000 more or less sound right?

[Old Dryfoot]

Okay I just found that it is kit only at this time... that makes me sad

Hmmm panel kits... getting happier...

[JimD]

Post #15 describes a Selway Fisher Highlander almost to the tee http://www.selway-fisher.com/Highlanders.htm :

http://www.selway-fisher.com/High18p1.jpg

[Old Dryfoot]

Post #15 describes a Selway Fisher Highlander almost to the tee http://www.selway-fisher.com/Highlanders.htm :

http://www.selway-fisher.com/High18p1.jpg

Thank you for chiming in Jim, I do like the Highlander a lot, this is true of many of the SF designs. I have been comparing the two with a list of the features I like which are present in both designs and the Highlander is coming out on top right now.

I would like to know a few things if you can offer some help.

Highlander makes no mention of being self bailing but I can only imagine it is... or is it?

Would the highlander being a water ballasted boat have the same righting properties as the Sea Raider? Would side and rear decks on Highlander create a similar behavior?

I have been trying to determine what is making the Sea Raider a ketch and the Highlander a yawl; I am aware of it being a matter of the position of the mizzen mast but to me they both look relatively the same.

I ask because aesthetically I don't think I care for the boomkin on Highlander. Is there a suitable sail plan that can eliminate the boomkin without changing the boats nature? I see the gunter and gaff version both seem to use one.

I read that the position of the OB on the boats center line is better for handling under power; is this being overstated, would it make a noticeable difference on Highlander?

I should not want to alter much more then that, maybe a smaller cuddy, possible a rear deck.

Sorry to have so many questions, any help is appreciated.

Thank you
Richard

[James McMullen]

The reason to put up with a boomkin is because it works better. You can sheet your mizzen to centerline more effectively with a sheet from the end of the boom to the end of a boomkin without the built-in stretch and slop of mid-boom sheeting to a rudderhead or suchlike. Twin sheets to either quarter can be a way to do without a boomkin, but that is a more cumbersome and complicated setup than a boomkin in my opinion.

The SeaRaider is really in that fuzzy area between definitely a yawl and definitely a ketch. Her mizzen is relatively pretty big, but it is also relatively further back, the steering station is clearly ahead of the mizzen, but the rig would never balance without the mizzen being set. . .I'd grant the designer right of privilege to call it either a ketch or a yawl and stick with that. The Highlander you pictured is a bona fide, no possible argument, lugger yawl, though--my own favorite rig! The sticks are at the opposite ends of the boat and the mizzen is there specifically to allow for balancing that big fores'l way up forward and out of the way of the helmsman in the cockpit. I go on in great detail why I like this particular rig so much for small boats starting in post #90 on this thread. (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=110244&page=2)

[JimD]

Richard, some good questions. I think you should ask Paul Fisher. If its not self bailing that's easy to change. Some of the other changes create some difficulties and complications, ie alterting the rig, placing the motor well on the centerline. On my 15 footer the motor well is off center and it doesn't seem to make much difference although it does make some. The offset yawl mizzen with boomkin on one side of the rudder/tiller and offset motor well on the other side is by far the simplest and most practical arrangement on a small, shallow draft design like this.

[Old Dryfoot]

Some wonderful reading and a great inspiration, thank you James.
I'm sold on the lugger as a camp cruiser; I have for some months now been admiring the Baltic Lugger from SFDesign, now I find it even more appealing. That would be a lot of boat to build for a beginner but I think done in clinker ply she would be very pretty indeed. I do have a personal preference for a traditional looking craft but it seems to me that there may be more potential for resale value in the Highlander design.

Jim you are correct. I will be doing that very thing and in the interest of saving time I think I shall purchase some Highlander study plans at the same time. I have no desire to alter the rig any longer, Mr McMullen has shown me the light.:)
I think I will ask Mr Fisher about centering of the motor well, perhaps it would be possible with the 19'6"? Whatever Mr Fisher's reply is, the only real question left would be what color her hull and sails will be. I'm thinking white on her bottom, decks, and cockpit with a darker blue or black topsides and a red bootstripe, maybe tanbark for the cloth...

On the Topic of sails... :D
Does anyone have some book recommendations for someone who would like to make their own sails?

Thank you
Richard

[JimD]

Richard, you've probably sorted this out already, but the main problem with the motor well on the centerline is that it has to be far enough forward so as to not interfere with the transom. If you have to cut out part of the transom then you end up with no where to hang the rudder pintles. And if the motor is mounted well forward then you have to plan for a long, curved tiller to swing over it. You'll have to do some serious measuring to see if its practical.

There's a few good sail making books around. I'm curious about Paul Fisher's and think I'll order it.

[Old Dryfoot]

Jim as with the boomkin, if it is a preferable arrangement then of course I would not want to alter it but... if it is possible with only a moderate amount of aggravation, frustration, and self loathing for not listening to the voice of reason... :D

However I did manage to find some photos that leads me to believe it might be workable, tiller considerations aside.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_16uaIQJ91m4/S-2q-1KC1SI/AAAAAAAAADc/7b8pgM0aZZs/s640/Egret.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_16uaIQJ91m4/S-2rpWJ-nNI/AAAAAAAAAEA/Icnz4F-jOIA/s912/2005-02-060553.jpg

The outboard used is a Tohatsu 3.5hp model, the owners page is here, (http://www.gscott.co.uk/Egret.html) you will also find larger versions of these photos there. It appears that the motor well used here does not require cutting the transom at all. It could very well be that as built it meets my criteria, but could perform like a steaming pile... :confused::confused::confused:

Thanks for the help, and patience.
Richard

[JimD]

Here's our motorwell. It has a cover not in the fotos. With the well cut out of the transom there is no possibility of water backing up in the well as can be the case in wells more foreward. No mizzen, but it could easily take one.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9db34b3127ccec74b74f445a400000040O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b9d823b3127ccec71015f9323200000040O00CbOGrVu4cMQ e3nw8/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Fore and aft decks
OB Motor in a well if possible
Mast(s) stepped outside of the cockpit
Could be rowed but not necessary
minimal intrusion of any dagger or centerboard trunks into the cockpit if possible
Should be safe and easy to solo in
Simple and quick to build and not too expensive
Interned to be used around southern Vancouver island.

Of the above lot

"Should be safe and easy to solo in
Simple and quick to build and not too expensive "
Do not mesh with anything that has been pictured here except the CK 17.
Sails and rigging are expensive. Craft with multiple masts, while pretty are hardly learners boats. There are salty types here that will chime in that they piloted a 20 foot with 200 squares of sail when they were 9 but most of us couldn't make that cut. To learn to sail and for reasons of economy it might be wiser to invest in a 12-14 footer, first, with a single sail , an unstayed mast , and a minimum of hardware to come to grips with. Since you have never sailed you don't really know if it will be along term love affair. And if you take on the construction of a complex boat the time lag till you get it on the water and commence sailing may be rather far off. The important thing is not to make your first build the boat you would die for but the boat that will get you on the water soon so you can measure whether sailing is your cup of tea. And if it is you want to be certain you have accumulated sufficient sailing skills before you set off into the waters around your island.

[Old Dryfoot]

JimD, I had no idea that this was you...
http://www.glen-l.com/designs/sailboat/sailboat-images/dsn-mine.jpg
I don't think I can count the times I looked at the Minuet, this one in particular, and thought to my self.... self, we need to get one some day. :D

I like what you've done, it's a real nice looking west coast flavor IMO.
Do you find the motor well loud? Either from water passing through under sail or while under power?

Cuyahoga Chuck all very good and sound advice, I do still plan on a much smaller learning craft. There are an abundance of GRP sailing dinghies for sale in these parts, $500.00 or so all in. I might opt to build one instead, and I will need one regardless as any larger boat would be kept on a mooring block anyway.

I know that this is not really the best choice as far as easy but I do hope to have the help of a local professional builder. I do intend to have a really good look at the study and subsequent full plans carefully and weigh that against what I think I can pull off. The only thing I can see that might give me pause would be the water ballast tanks.

You are right, this is still a more expensive boat. I do think however that this boat may offer a chance to recover a greater portion of the invest then other designs could. So in a round about way it could prove more economical in that respect.

I've also been bracing myself for this for some time too. Many years of reading WB magazine, The Gougeon Brothers, and just about anything else I can get my hands on. I even had a very long hard look, to the extent of a business plan, at getting into the wooden boat building game. It didn't take long to become keenly aware of the complexities and economics of boat building.

Still... if I could... I would take just about any job offered to me related to building or working with boats.

I'm fairly handy too which should count for something. I have used many types of two part urethane and epoxies before, have spent hours at the end of grinders on concrete, applied cold and hot bonded membranes. My long winded point being I'm prepared for the dirty parts involved.

I hope that I don't sound overly confident but I have always enjoyed a challenge. There have been a few failures but all things considered, I would rather fail at something too difficult then succeed at something too easy.

Thanks
Richard

[James McMullen]

I gotta disagree with Cuyahoga Chuck about the multiple masts part. If you want to keep the masts stepped outside of the cockpit area, a cat yawl is the very best option of all, and it is by no means any more difficult to learn how to sail than a sloop rig or a cat rig. In fact, it is probably safer for a novice sailor than either. It is my favorite sort of rig for the size boat we were first talking about, just as it was Phil Bolger's.

But I would agree with him that a very simple 12-footer to get your feet wet would be a fantastic idea, though. Might I suggest Bolger's Teal design as the cheapest and quickest-to-build decent boat you can possibly build? One week and $100 would leave you with change left over. . . . and then you've got something to use and learn to sail in while you figure out what you're ultimately going to want.

[Old Dryfoot]

I do really like a lot of Bolger's designs, Teal looks like lots of fun too I don't know if I like leeboards though.
What do you think of the 10' Glen-L Saboteer?
http://glen-l.com/designs/hankinson/kh-images/045saboteer-l.gif

Or maybe a little larger, Boatplans.dk 11' Dinghy-Vee
http://www.boatplans.dk/images/dinghy-vee-11/dinghy-vee-11-6.jpg
A little more to build but either should make a good general purpose dinghy and trainer no?

I do really like the idea of a pram or pram like boat when getting to the smaller end of things. I do need something the fits with six feet and 240lbs of rookie sailor. :o

[Old Dryfoot]

How about a piccup pram?
http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/piccup_pram/rob.jpg
It's a yawl too :)

[JimD]

Do you find the motor well loud?

The enclosed well with styrofoam insulation is quite tolerable, noise wise. I don't really recommend styrofoam glued to the inside the way I did it but it was quick and cheap and I just wanted it quieter in a hurry. Without out the foam it was noticably louder. There is an big air vent in the back of it, I use a four stroke motor, so the whole thing is very low smoke, low noise.

[ben2go]

These are all good first time builds, easily built by one person, and trailored by a small vehicle.

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/longyard/luckytown/index.htm

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/barlow/pelican/index.htm

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jg/hotchili/index.htm

[George Ray]

Chameleon
A multipurpose 10' 4" nesting dinghy for amateur construction
designed by Danny Greene
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/designs/greene/cham/chameleon1.gif
..
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/s/designs/greene/cham/index.cfm
..
http://dory-man.blogspot.com/2009/08/chameleon.html
..
http://ckdboats.blogspot.com/2009/01/thegeko-nesting-dinghynew-for-you.html
..
http://www.sailorgirl.com/s/v303_robbie.htm
..
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179291
..
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_L_gmO1xMx3I/SXRpSOdWq5I/AAAAAAAAC2w/p408CSblgPQ/s400/result.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_L_gmO1xMx3I/SXRpfzLMkcI/AAAAAAAAC3A/VqPjLWdIolU/s400/nested.jpg
..
..
In Aluminum !!!!
http://www.bebi-electronics.com/rtt.html
http://www.bebi-electronics.com/serving/rttpics/rough_dink_sm.jpg

[ben2go]

In a small boat,you may wanna keep flotation chambers in mind, in case of a knock down.

[Old Dryfoot]

ben2go, thank you for the links, I was keeping buoyancy tanks in mind for sure. I'm new to this sailing thing and expect to get wet at least a couple of times, having my boat sink at the same time would just be insult on top of injury. :D
I do like the looks of a pram and am 99% sure that is what I will build. Simple and quick to build, they can carry a good load, and from what I can see they can be a riot to sail.

On another note I did just buy a copy of The Sailmaker's Apprentice and would like to say, that from an amateur view, the book is wonderful! Witty and humorous, you almost forget the purpose of the book is educational, it's such an enjoyable read. I also picked up the USCGA Sailing Skills and Seamanship, which also seems a very well written text indeed, I can't wait to put it all into practice.

Richard

[Old Dryfoot]

George, I see a lot of nesting and aluminum prams here in these parts. There is a nesting AL for sale locally for 550.00 which I just looked at to get a better visual of the amount of room they offer.
I really like the 12' AL that Micheal Kasten designed, I even think it looks quite sporty too.
http://www.kastenmarine.com/_screenshots/12_pram_persp.jpg

Thanks for the help
Richard