Nature's Head vs. Air Head Toilet

[KAIROS]

These two marine composting toilets are very similar (Nature's Head (http://www.natureshead.net/) probably a knock-off of the Air Head (http://www.airheadtoilet.com/)). There's plenty of information in forums online about both......some here (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=111702&highlight=airhead) too, but I could not find any comparison, let alone a detailed comparison of their quality and features. The Air Head is a bit more expensive with slightly different specs. The Nature's has an oval bowl too, rather than the Air's round one. Other than that, what's the difference?

I'm installing one of these two. Which is better?

Air Head drawing:

http://www.airheadtoilet.com/images/specs_files/fitdiagram072.gif

Nature's Head drawing:

http://www.natureshead.net/Images/NaturesHead_Side.jpg

[George Ray]

I have used the original 'Air Head' and as of a year or two ago thought I would prefer the 'Nature's Head' as comparable/same for less money. Now the 'Air Head' looks to be superior with:
(A) new larger urine tank that removes w/o disturbing main bowl
(2) fully gasketed joints between sections
(iii) mixer crank better suited for tight spaces

I expect to purchase one or the other in the next 12 months so your final choice is of interest to me.

[Lew Barrett]

A new larger urine tank is always desirable! I am sure it is; it just sounds funny to me. I will be interested too, in fact.

[wizbang 13]

Just bought 2 plastic buckets. Green is clean and blue is too( #two)

[John P Lebens]

We are also looking at these for our vessel. Functionally they seem to be about the same, and the Nature's head seems to be a renewed and refined design compared with the AirHead. However, the Nature's head appears to be somewhat wider on the top (16.6") and also square at the base possibly making it more difficult to fit it into small spaces. The Airhead has a round base, I believe. I think Airhead may be responding to the competition by updating its design.

I have never heard complaints about the function of these system, but then again, I know almost nobody who has actually lived with one.

A 2002 issue of Practical Sailor concluded that the Airhead was a fine piece of gear, but requires some involvement by the user... They were referring to the need to empty the "liquid" tank and also to the solids stirring and blending process for you and your guests.

Instead of replacing my nest of stinking hoses and a failed pump, I may shell out the bucks for one of these units. I would be interested in anyone's actual experience - with these units. I'm not interested in more of the honey bucket discussion!

[Ian McColgin]

I am very into my airhead but BUT BUT especially if you have a crew of beer drinking women, be prepared to drain the urine tank a couple times a day.

[wizbang 13]

Let the Babes have the good liquor

[KAIROS]

.......Now the 'Air Head' looks to be superior....

George, are you saying that the Air Head has recently been upgraded, and the Nature's Head may not be as good now?

[George Ray]

Don't know about 'recent' .... last time I used an Air Head was a few years ago, before Nature's Head was available. It seems to me that Air Head has changed their design for the better. It has been a couple of years since I took a close look at either. This post prompted me to visit the web sites and look/compare and I posted my impression.

[KAIROS]

I've gotten a response to my question of how these two composting toilets differ from the manufacturer of the Air Head. I'll post the answer here. Still waiting for an answer from the Nature's Head folks. Not any kind of independent study, but maybe useful. I am still searching for independent evaluations.

Here's the question I asked both companies via email:

Please describe, being specific about each component, how the Air Head is different than the Nature's Head. I am installing one or the other of these in my sailboat. The cost difference is trivial.

Here is the answer from the Air Head folks:

QUOTE: As for a comparison, below is my stock answer to your question which seems to fulfill your request. . I hear that NH only says they have a few advantages over ours. That there is no seat and therefore no danger of seat breaking in rough seas. However, the gasket on our unit keeps that from happening. Also, they say something about their urine tank being supported and ours not. The flaw in that argument is that if either unit is left to overhang your feet will dangle in the air due to the height of the units. Therefore it is necessary when installing both units to extend a raised platform out beyond the bottle thereby supporting the bottle as well as providing a foot rest.

I think you will find my arguments sound and really there is no way to compare the product of an original thought and 12 years of work to a mere facsimile cobbled up to take advantage of a "marketing opportunity". But as always, I leave this to your complete examination and if you need any further help let me know.

Air Head Vs. Natures Head

In my slightly biased opinion you are buying a more thoroughly thought out product when purchasing the Air Head. I've been at this since the late 90's and I have spoken to 100's of customers about their experiences with my product. When there is an issue with the product I make design changes. If there is something that I think can be improved I improve it. So over the years I believe I have created something that is solid and dependable and I have made countless changes that really aren't noticeable to people. Air Head is designed to last into the foreseeable future. So the chances of someone fresh copying Air Head quality and dependability is remote right off the bat. They just can't have the breadth of understanding that I have. Nature's Head (NH) is designed to be manufactured more cheaply probably because they figured they needed some advantages over Air Head since its reputation is so good, (Google search “airhead toilet)” and see what people have to say about my product.

Here is a feature to feature comparison of the two:

NH translucent bottle will get pretty ugly pretty quick due to build up of residue from urine. Air Head has a view strip with a replaceable PVC tube. If the tube gets dirty replace it at any hardware store.

It is a bit unbelievable that to remove the LIQUID bottle of NH you need to lift the bowl exposing the SOLID "goods" for a few seconds. Air Head liquid tank is removed using a pull at the bottom, the bottle tilts under the spout. The Air Head bottle has 1.8 gallon capacity when used as designed. However, it really has two gallons if you lifted the bowl as you do the NH.

NH is less compact. In tilting the bowl back on the NH more room is necessary in the rear in order to accommodate this. Additionally, the base of NH is square making it more difficult to fit in tight spaces than the circular Air Head. Air Head was and still is the most compact composting toilet ever made.

Just as unbelievable is that the crank handle on the Natures Head is threaded so it turns only in one direction, the other direction will unscrew and the handle will fall out. I designed the Agitator in the Air Head (which Natures Head copied) to turn both ways. One way moves everything inward, the other outward. It is a necessary element of the equation to be able to reverse direction and Natures Head doesn't provide that...thread lock won't hold it.

Air Head seat and lid is gasketed to prevent flying insects from entering as well as reduce odor if the fan should stall. NH lid has no gaskets.

Air Head comes complete with a solid base transport lid when you carry it off of the boat. Amazingly, NH does not come with a lid for use when you empty the solid tank.

Air Head comes with starter peat, liners, enzyme, mounting screws, hose, fan, four pages of illustrated instructions edited over the course of eight years. NH does not come with liners, enzyme, starter peat and the instructions are brief.

My favorite: You can lift the seat and urinate into the Air Head. NH requires men to run a stream over the seat that does not lift. NH boasts of a larger seat. But it really doesn't have a seat does it?

Air Head has remote fan within its own shroud that pulls air out of the system. The NH fan is mounted on the body of the toilet and attempts to push air though the hose which is less efficient due to turbulence produced and is more likely to push musty air out leaks in long stretch of hose after fan.

Air Head is a nice matte “granite” white. NH is a dark “granite” gray which appears to be the same color formula used in making of porta-jons.

Air Head, has a two year warranty. NH one year.

Geoffrey Trott Originator, Air Head Environmental Toilet. The first diversion composting toilet for boats.

Geoffrey Trott General Manager Eos Design LLC PO Box 5 Mt. Vernon, OH 43050 740-392-3642

END QUOTE.

[John P Lebens]

Great info - we'll see what Nature's Head says.

From my POV, the AirHead looks better because it has cleaner lines.

[KAIROS]

Have not gotten a response from the Nature's head folks yet. Resent the question via email today.....

[John P Lebens]

I hope they respond soon - I am looking forward to what they have to say.

[KAIROS]

Received the following answer to my question from Nature's Head. The response from Air Head is in a post above. Again, here's the question I asked both companies via email:

Please describe, being specific about each component, how the Air Head is different than the Nature's Head. I am installing one or the other of these in my sailboat. The cost difference is trivial.

QUOTE:

Here are a few advantages we feel that Nature's Head has.

A full size elongated molded in seat. Safety and comfort in rough seas, also easy to keep clean

Built in fan and filter, change to either side, single pin power hookup,12v draw 1.7 amps in 24 hours. can be run with our 110 v
transformer,washable filters

Crank handle and agitator can be switched to either side. crank handle can be left off and use a ratchet or ratchet wrench for very narrow installations

For hull side installation the base is angled on the bottom to allow the unit to sit back further.

The two front latches and slip hinge allow for quick and easy servicing of the unit. no thumb screws to line up.

Flange bushings on agitator and trap door components

Special ends and hose for venting, very flexible and no need for clamps.

Urine bottle is self supporting, allows the unit to extend beyond a riser.

Most of these are visable on our slide show on the home page.
Toilets are always in stock for immediate shipping

Please feel free to call or email with any questions or concerns.

Regards, Larry
251-295-3043
www.natureshead.net

END QUOTE.

Still looking for independent evaluations....Air Head vs. Nature's Head.

[Bob Cleek]

http://www.weirdlook.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/airhead-look.jpg

AIRHEAD

http://www.irishviews.com/400x300/ocean-sunset2.jpg

NATURE'S HEAD



Sorry, this has been bugging me for days and I just couldn't contain myself any longer!

[Ian McColgin]

I’ve had my Airhead a few years so far. Off-hand here are my thoughts about the Nature’s Head remarks:

Seat size - I’m a big guy with plenty of bottom and I manage to stay on target on the Airhead in all weather. No problem there.

The fan is the fan - it’s only one connection and I think it works better on suck - out near the exit.

The angled side might be helpful though I don’t see how. Airhead is pretty low and it’s easy to make a platform if you orient that way. I think it better to sit fore and aft, not athwartships - that after three decades living aboard in boats with both orientations, so the Nature’s head angle would serve no purpose to me as a sailor.

Latches v. thumbscrews - well maybe but not enough to be trouble

AirHeads hoses have stayed in place just fine.

Both boats could use bigger urine bottles, or even a hose to a remote and really bigger tank. The AirHead tank is easier to get on and off if the flat it rests on is a hair lower than the head itself.

For what it’s worth, I’d probably say get the one that you can get the best deal on. These guys were once partners and the AirHead’s the original but the market should grown enough for both and the competition helps keep quality up.

G’luck

[Nicholas Scheuer]

I used to be in the toilet equipment manufacturing business.

I know that Nature's Head has an "elongated" seat. Air Head originally did not; its seat was "round"; ( Rd and Elong being the way household toilets are denoted).

Elongated is LOTS'mo'better, far outweighing features like crankls, etc; even outweighing urine tank size, in my opinion.

Moby Nick

[Ian McColgin]

The best head I had before the AirHead was my LaVac, so I guess I'm just used to round. Works fine for me.

I forgot to mention that AirHead's crank can be oriented to which ever side you like.

[Raka025]

The best head I had ...

Oops, wrong forum.

[Gerarddm]

LOL when I read this thread title... brought to mind one evening when I was three sheets to the wind peeing into the wind off the bow of HMS Rose.

[John P Lebens]

Airhead has a version with an elongated seat they designate as a household design.

[KAIROS]

Yes, and you can order it as an option via email/phone after you place your order. It's not on their website order form yet.

[BBSebens]

All other things appearing rather equal, I would go for the Airhead based on the service you've received from both companies. The Airhead guy seemed much more interested in answering your question thoroughly, whereas the Natures Head guy took several days to respond with what easily seems copy and pasted.

I get the impression that the AH golfs are more interested in keeping their customers happy. Seems like the safe bet to me.

[KAIROS]

All other things appearing rather equal, I would go for the Airhead based on the service you've received from both companies. The Airhead guy seemed much more interested in answering your question thoroughly, whereas the Natures Head guy took several days to respond with what easily seems copy and pasted.

I get the impression that the AH golfs are more interested in keeping their customers happy. Seems like the safe bet to me.

That's my impression based on most of what I have read on the web too......better service from the Air-Heads (careful, Bob:D) and more professional too. Only an impression though. No detailed comparison available, though owners on both sides have reported good service. Why isn't the Consumer's Union evaluating composting marine toilets? Bunch of lubbers.

I'm leaning toward the Air Head. Mostly, as you say BBSebens, because their response above is more appropriate, and I have not found negative comments on the web (and Ian and Margo like their Air Heads too).

[John P Lebens]

The AirHead people were at the Port Townsend Wood Boat Festival last September. They gave a lengthy presentation about the unit, but looking at the boats was a higher priority so I walked on by! If there is one scheduled this coming September, I plan to attend.

I think that physically examining each of the units would help in making a decision. Since both units are functionally identical, so I would want to get a sense of the construction and component quality.

Airhead has been around longer and presumably will be in business to deal with any warranty issues. The competition from Nature's head may have lit a fire under them to improve some product details. I think the Airhead looks a little better.

[KAIROS]

Still reading....here (http://forum.ssca.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5900&sid=a7985b71c10fdcc748b962a262532239) is the same thread in a parallel universe. This thread leans toward the Nature's Head.....though I think some of the older issues mentioned with the Air Head have since been addressed.....Capitalism yields better toilets!

Here (http://www.weblife.org/humanure/) is an in-dept, more technical discussion of the issue.

I'm absolutely sold on the composting toilet concept. I don't see any other option except paying for pumpout if you care about the coastal and inland waters you sail through. We are not talking about a gold-plated porta-potti here. The key is separation of liquid from solid waste. Which way you go from there.....Air Head (http://www.airheadtoilet.com/) ($1200 with solar vent), Nature's Head (http://www.natureshead.net/) ($1000 with solar vent), kit (http://www.ecovita.net/privy.html) ($400 with solar vent) or a completely homemade (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/05/articles/toilet/index.cfm)($20?) composter, is up to how much money you want to spend vs. (relatively) how conveniently you want to deal with your waste.

[KAIROS]

Got this email today:

QUOTE

"We would like to respond to the postings on the Wooden Boat blog. We received the inquriy from KAIROS on May 6th. We responded that day and on the 12th received an identical email request. I forwarded the original email showing we were prompt in responding.
We try to reply to all customers' questions and evalute any suggestions presented to us. We have made some small changes per customers suggestions and will continue to listen to customer input. Each year we contact three customers who use the toilet full time whether it is in a watercraft, RV, home, etc. We ship them a new unit at no cost and pay to ship their used unit back to us for evaluation. With heads that have been out for 2 to 3 years we have found no staining or problems with any parts or function.
Both of us at Nature's Head are quite familar with the AH as we had the units on our sailboats several years ago and I sold a few of them. He has definitely made some design improvements recently. As one of you posted, competition does facilitate change!
Our combined 50 years of boating and sailing have given us some insight on the problems with marine santitation. Our many years of designing and building automated manufacturing equipment has contributed to our manner of manufacturing and cost containment. Since we have multiple sets of molds and continual flow of product we are able to ship daily. Whether one unit for a RV, home, or a hundred for a goverment contract, manufacturer, or our Military we meet the demand. We are here for the future.
We have many people who use our toilet with no fan or venting. NO odor. Our hose is smooth interior medical hose, no turbulence. Due to our deep bowl design coffee filters are not required. Our units do come with the fan, electrical cable, hose, cap, mounting brackets, Due to the many applications of our unit we do not include screws. In many applications you might need through bolting, butterfly bolts, concrete inserts, etc. Starters are not included because overseas shipments and customer preference preclude their enclosure.
We have been manufacturing white granite since last year although some people still prefer the light gray granite. Previously we provided a 2 year warranty, which has been increased to a full 5 year warranty which also applies to previously sold units.
We feel AH comments were inappropiate, unfounded, and unprofessional. We should keep in mind opinions are not fact! Also, we all should be careful what is posted online, it is there forever.
We encourage anyone with any questions, concerns or comments to please contact us directly. Phone calls are welcomed.

Regards,
Larry Stearns
Matt Cochran
Nature's Head Inc.
www.natureshead.net
sales@natureshead.net
251-295-3043"

UNQUOTE

[KAIROS]

On second thought, it is probably asking too much to have competing companies present an objective, tempered discussion of the comparative benefits of their products ;).

But, I am still soliciting additional comments from buyers/users with experience with either of these composting toilets, including comments on the above posts.

Thanks.

[BBSebens]

It seems that you've gotten a few long term reviews on the Air-Head. Might be worthwhile seeing if you can find someone in the area that's had the Natures Head for while, and talk to them. NH probably has a customer list.

Or just pick one and go.

[kai nui]

As much as I hate to revive old threads, I think this one is well worth breathing life into.
I have just purchased a Nature's Head. I am waiting for it to arrive. Having sailed, fixed and built just about everything (typical cruiser:cool:) I came to the conclusion that the type II MSD System I installed in our boat was too complex, and not going to be reliable. Having lived for years chasing the honey barge, or rationing our use until we planned to be offshore, we are done with holding tanks.
So, simple decision, a composting toilet. I have heard of Air Head for a long time. Read about it, talked to a few who have used it, and was impressed. When we first started building our current boat, the air head was a consideration, but we decided on the more conventional system.
I started looking for an alternative again, and while searching for info on the Air HEad, I found the Nature's Head.
I expect to receive the Nature's Head sometime i the next week or so. I will post my thoughts at that time about the quality of the unit.
I will say, at this time, my customer experience with my local dealer has not met my expectations, but I have high hopes that can be resolved.
So far the Nature's Head rates:
8 - for described design (I wish it had a separate seat and a way to close the urine bottle when not in use.
10 - Price. Least expensive off the shelf composting toilet on the market.
5 - Customer service specific to this dealer.

[John P Lebens]

Kairos - if you are out there, what did you decide between these two units?

Because of space considerations, the Airhead is our only possible option. It is smaller in most dimensions.

[KAIROS]

Kairos - if you are out there, what did you decide between these two units? Because of space considerations, the Airhead is our only possible option. It is smaller in most dimensions.

Hi John. Still on the fence. For some strange reason, the other projects to be done before the head project are taking longer than I had planned. In the mean time we are using a spackle bucket with one of those Gama Seal lids. We keep urine separate, and throw in a couple of cups of wood shavings after use. Compost out in the field after 2 weeks of cruising. With the lid, without liquid, and with the shavings it has no odor and is not too sickening to empty. But, when we get done with more essential projects we might consider one of these composting toilets.

kai nui (http://forum.woodenboat.com/member.php?11909-kai-nui).....we look forward to your evaluation. Thanks.

[Ian McColgin]

One stray thought - when I bought my AirHead the exhaust was a small computer fan. It's worked fine but I keep thinking of changing to a solar powered vent to seperate it from the boat's electrical system. This seems to me worth the money and if you can afford it a good idea from the start.

[ILikeRust]

One stray thought - when I bought my AirHead the exhaust was a small computer fan. It's worked fine but I keep thinking of changing to a solar powered vent to seperate it from the boat's electrical system. This seems to me worth the money and if you can afford it a good idea from the start.

Now that's a good idea. My boat came with an AirHead (installed by the previous owner within the past couple years), and most of the time the fan is off to prevent battery drain. You can get the basic Nicro solar vent fans for around (or under) $100 - watch for sales and they're often cheaper. About a month ago, I got two of their best night/day solar vent fans, which normally retail for about $160 each, for $99 each on sale. I have yet to install them. Maybe I need to get one more for the Air Head...

[John P Lebens]

...For some strange reason, the other projects to be done before the head project are taking longer than I had planned...

Yes - my plan was to have the 5th coat of varnish on today, but I haven't lifted a brush to apply coat one. There is a good chance we are not the only wood boat owners to have gotten off schedule!

If we get around to changing ours out and the Airhead fits (it's a very tight squeeze) we will use it. I attended the seminar put on in Port Townsend last September and liked the company owner. The Airhead seems to have some design advantages. The round base makes it easier to fit into small spaces. The remote vent fan keeps it away from the contents of the toilet, the separate seat makes it a more normal toilet, etc. Often, the original design is the best design.

[Bobcat]

Interested in the nuts and bolts of these heads. With the separate urine tank, I assume you just dump the pee overboard, perhaps once a day, correct?

[BarnacleGrim]

I'm not in the market for one, but I have a question. Once it becomes full, how do you discharge the...ordures?

[ILikeRust]

There is a huge thread about these over at SailNet, which goes into all the details. Also, the manufacturers' respective web sites provide explanations.

I can speak only regarding the AirHead; I have no experience with the Nature's Head.

As far as the AirHead, your #1 is separated from your #2 by the design of the toilet bowl. There is a little trap door in the bottom of the bowl, operated by a lever on the side. #1 goes into a "pee bottle" mounted on the front of the device, via drain holes. If you have to do #2, you flip the lever and open the trap door, and the waste drops into the bucket.

Before starting use, you first put some compost material in the bucket. The idea is that you properly dispose of the contents of the pee bottle upon returning to land by pouring it down a toilet (or, as suggested above, you could pour it over the side, which I'm betting the USCG/EPA would argue is illegal), and the contents of the #2 bucket compost, because you've kept the #1 out of it. If you've got it set up right, it actually composts pretty quickly.

I don't think it's a solution that would work well for a full-time live-aboard or for very long cruises, but for a typical family pleasure boat, that sees use only a couple days per month and spends most of its time just sitting in the slip unused, it works. At the end of the season, you lift out the #2 bucket. After composting, the stuff basically is very much like soil, not like poo, and you can either dump the contents into a trash bag and trash it, or apply it to the ground. I've read of some people tilling it into their yard or garden soil, but I would not advise that, particularly in a vegetable garden. I would just dump it into a plastic trash bag, tie it up tightly and put it in the trash, or dump it in the woods.

There are pros and cons, just as there are with a holding tank. It's not for everyone, but I like the simplicity and reliability of it - no need to worry about pumps failing, hoses or tanks leaking, getting pumped out, whatever. It's very unlikely I'll ever take a very long cruise in this boat anyhow, and if I do go for a few days, I have the advantage of being male and able to pee over the rail, so the pee bottle doesn't fill up so quickly.

[Chip-skiff]

One stray thought - when I bought my AirHead the exhaust was a small computer fan. It's worked fine but I keep thinking of changing to a solar powered vent to seperate it from the boat's electrical system. This seems to me worth the money and if you can afford it a good idea from the start.

Those little round solar vent thingies don't move much air. I've used computer fans for various things— most are 12 volt. You can get a cheap 5-10 watt PV panel, wire the fan directly to it, and save the expense (and another hole to cut) of a solar vent.

[PeterSibley]

Those little round solar vent thingies don't move much air. I've used computer fans for various things— most are 12 volt. You can get a cheap 5-10 watt PV panel, wire the fan directly to it, and save the expense (and another hole to cut) of a solar vent.

I've just bought precisely that ,a 5w 12v panel to power a 12v computer fan on a shore side composting toilet .It cost $30 on Ebay.

[Ian McColgin]

Chip-skiff - thanks for the thought. I'd been under the impression that they moved a lot of air and that the airhead guy liked them but did not provide as it added over $100 to the total price. I'll do some research.

[ILikeRust]

Those little round solar vent thingies don't move much air.

I presume Ian was referring to the solar vents that have a powered fan inside, not just a passive vent. Depending on which model you select, the Nicro day/night vents are rated at between 600 and 800 cubic feet per hour. That certainly seems to me to be moving much more air than the tiny little fan that comes with the AirHead.

Plus you don't need to move massive amounts of air anyhow - you just need a slight negative pressure. All it has to do is pull a little bit to draw air through the "bucket", to help in keeping odors down (it doesn't really smell anyhow) and help dry out the contents.

[Ian McColgin]

I did mean the solar/batt powered unit.

[John P Lebens]

I'll second the Sailnet reference. There is a lot of discussion there about composting toilets in general.

There are a lot of "lookers" interested in the idea, and there don't seem to be many actual users commenting on the technology.

Still, the users who do comment are almost universally positive about these devices.

Who on this thread are actual owners? If you are an owner, do you recommend these things?

[Ian McColgin]

In my experience the solids tank needs emptying once a year if you have one person living aboard and occasional guests, or a couple to small family that cruises very activly each season weekend with perhaps a week or so constant cruise. Unless there is a considerable time after the last use, you'll need to set the compost aside to mature for another season before it goes on your garden. The toilette paper and coffee filters don't compost as readily so it's well to plan around any aesthetic issues on that matter.

The urine tank is more of a pain. It's a bit on the small side. I does not fill up so fast with just guys around (Duh) but if you have a crew of beer drinking women . . . . You'll be pouring out pee at least daily.

There is some debate as to whether dumping just urine actually violates any laws. Most jurisdictions think so and the issue has not been litigated. Urine in a dispersed application is not a problem and many folk ashore cast it on the fields, but concentrated it can cause too much nitrogen in an ecosystem. So if you just pour it overboard, you might be breaking a law and you might be (especially in an enclosed water) be causing an over-nutrient problem. Further, most shore facilities and marinas are unenthused, to say the least, about disposal through their system, not that a couple gallons seems a big deal to me.

In short, the urine-fecal seperation that is the big selling point for the AirHead since that makes the compost go off stink free, but it's also urine disposal that's the real achillies heel.

[ILikeRust]

Who on this thread are actual owners? If you are an owner, do you recommend these things?

I have one. The previous owner took out the old MSD and replaced it with the AirHead.

As I just bought the boat in August of last year, I haven't had as much experience with it as Ian has had with his, but I do think I like it better than a traditional holding tank.

My boat is a 1968 Pearson Wanderer, and I've been doing a lot of work on it for the past couple months. One big project is the replacement of the entire cabin sole and floor timbers. I spent all day yesterday crawling around on my hands and knees, and one of the last things I did yesterday was to take an angle grinder with a twisted wire wheel to the inside of the hull to clean it and scuff it up a bit in prep for painting it with Bilgekote (hopefully next weekend). I could tell where the holding tank used to be, and where it leaked into the bilge. P.U. and yuck.

I had pulled the entire AirHead unit out of the boat about a month or more ago and brought it home so I could empty it and clean the whole thing. The last time anyone used it would have been in November. I just dumped the solids into a trash bag - it really was just like soil or peat. No real odor, other than what dry compost smells like. Some of the paper had not composted, but you can't be squeamish when dealing with a marine head, that's for sure.

I like not having two extra through-hulls - I removed them and had the holes professionally glassed over. You can't even tell where they were.

I think any of the various options and pluses and minuses. It depends on personal preference and how you use your boat - e.g., long-distance cruising for weeks at a time versus a weekend or two each month. So far, I like it. As Ian mentioned, the original pee bottle is a little small, but the manufacturer came out with a larger-capacity bottle that will fit the original unit. I haven't yet bothered to buy one, but they do recommend having two so that if one fills up, you can cap it and switch them out. We've had ours fill up only once, and I just quietly poured it over the side. As far as I'm concerned, that is the nastiest job.

As Ian also observes, if it's just guys on board, you can get away without using the pee bottle at all, pretty much.

And there's always "that bucket" as backup...

[kai nui]

OK. Nature's Head received. I am impressed at the quality and the design.
A few things that have been mentioned since my last post. First, the solar vent. I like the idea, and am planning on it, however, the dealer I purchased from insisted it was a waste of money as computer fans hardly draw anything. I strongly disagree, but then, I have been living aboard and cruising off and on for the past 13 years, so electricity is something I put high value on.
As far as how it functions, the solids and liquids are separated. The solids tank is sizable. My guess is with two of us using the head full time we will get 2-3 months between having to empty the solids.
The liquid tank is 2.2 gallons. This should last the two of us about 2-3 days between empty's. We can carry it up to the marina head to dump it. A larger container would be less convenient to carry up and dump, as well as more conspicuous.
The shape of the seat is more comfortable than I expected, and will not be an issue to get used to.
Our boat is a Piver trimaran, so weight is a real concern. This unit weighs 29 pounds. Our traditional marine toilet, Lectra San, 9 gallon holding tank, and misc hoses and fittings weigh allot more than that. Especially when the holding tank is full.
Another difference that sold me on this toilet over the AirHead was the bowl design. As I understand it, you have to sit to pee in the AirHead. You do not have to sit with the Nature's Head. And then there are the coffee filters. The AirHead requires use of coffee filter looking things for solids. To me this means two things. The inconvenience of having to carry yet another consumable on the boat, and, the need to plan ahead when you sit down. Not so much a problem for me, but for some it is an issue.
I am also looking forward to eliminating a few more holes below the waterline.
Stay tuned for the install and a few photos.
I will add, my previous rating still stands, except for customer service. Brief description, I was unhappy with the shipping details. I also felt the payment details with this specific dealer were a bit sketchy. I described my concerns to this dealer, and my extreme dissatisfaction with the communication. The response was less than acceptable, but was shared with the manufacturer. Not only have I received no further response from the dealer, but I have received nothing from the manufacturer. This seems in line with the slow response, and, the attitude expressed in that response to the inquiry that started this thread. With that said, I believe AirHead has far superior customer service. I do feel Nature's Head is the superior design, but so far their customer service is terrible.

[Ian McColgin]

I don't know about Nature's Head but something I've mentioned with the AirHead: Your pile lands on a coffee filter sitting atop the trap door. Now, you could flip the lever that drops the mess into the tank before you wipe, but if you don't, be prepared to lift your cheeks a bit. The verticle space is limited and your hand could get soiled . . .

[kai nui]

The Nature's Head is used with the trap door open. That is the main difference in the bowl design.

[Ian McColgin]

Ah, I wondered. Does it still assure urine seperation if you happen do be doing both?

[kai nui]

Yes it does. When you sit, you pee forward, regardless of male or female. Forward is the low point in the bowl. If you happen to stand, the trap door obviously will be closed, and the whole thing slopes downhill toward the urine jug.
The down side I see to this design is the need to keep a spray bottle handy with water, or a vinegar solution to keep the bowl clean from splatters. We will likely do the same as we do with the traditional marine head and wet the bowl before we use it. This should help keep things clean.

[Chip-skiff]

Kai nui = big food.

Is this Yeadon?

[kai nui]

Kai Nui is Big Sea in Hawaii, and nope. Although there are many here who do know me from other forums, and even one or two from my various wood boats. I have been lurking here for years, and finally had something to say.

[ILikeRust]

Another difference that sold me on this toilet over the AirHead was the bowl design. As I understand it, you have to sit to pee in the AirHead. You do not have to sit with the Nature's Head. And then there are the coffee filters. The AirHead requires use of coffee filter looking things for solids.

Regardless of device, I finding sitting to be a little easier than standing, at least if we're underway and the boat's moving about. And you don't actually *have* to use the coffee filters. You can open the trap door and just let the solids fall directly into the bucket.

Anyhow, yeah, I think each design has pros and cons and it comes down to which the individual feels suits his or her needs or proclivities. My boat came with the AirHead and so far I've not been dissatisfied with it. Of course I have yet to use it for an extended period, so we'll see how things go.

I recall a somewhat heated back-and-forth on another forum - it might have been SailNet - between the maker of the AirHead and the maker of Nature's Head, in which one was essentially accusing the other of lying about his product. Pretty ugly when two crapper makers start flinging, uh, mud.

[Ian McColgin]

As I understand the tale about nintyninth hand, the Nature's Head guy once worked for AirHead, or was early partner, or something.

With the AirHead it's perfectly fine to pee standing up. Even if you direct your stream at the back end of the trap, it will not get into the compost tank. Some find various aiming games fun, just as an industrial engineer found when, to make Amsterdam's legendarily nasty public urinals cleaner, he hit on glazing the image of a house fly into the bowl. Irresistable target. However, I still keep a sign that says, "Gentlemen, whatever you're doing in here, sit first. If you must stand, go to the leeward rail."

[kai nui]

No disagreement about sitting while underway. But, underway is but a small portion of cruising.
The dealer told me that the owner of Nature's head worked for AirHead, proposed changes to the design, was ignored, and proceeded to start his own company. There is also information that the 2 owners of Nature's Head are avid sailors.
All I know is the products are very close in design, and both are clearly designed for boats.

[kai nui]

Installed and working. I would post pictures, but I can not resize them small enough for this forum with the software I have on this machine The new composting toilet works fine. The finish work will come later.

[kai nui]

A couple of weeks of use and we could not be happier with the Nature's Head. It is very easy to use, there is absolutely no smell, even when opening it up to remove the pee bucket. On deck, there is occasionally a bit of smell when it is in use if you are downwind from the vent, but it is short lived.
My wife is equally pleased with this head.
In comparison, when we had holding tanks on our old boat, we had to pump out in about 1/3 the amount of time I expect to get between dumping the solids. The pee bucket needs to be dumped about every 3 days with 2 of us using it. Even that is not a big deal. It is small enough that my wife can comfortably deal with it.
Now it's time to find out about service after the sale. As I mentioned, I was less than pleased with the customer service. When I installed the toilet, I had to bend the spider handle a bit for clearance. In doing so, I broke the weld on one of the spokes. I need a replacement. I will let you all know how that goes.

[John P Lebens]

Please keep us apprised on your experience with this head! We are on the verge of investing in an airhead and would be interested in any pros and cons based on personal experience.

[WX]

Installed and working. I would post pictures, but I can not resize them small enough for this forum with the software I have on this machine The new composting toilet works fine. The finish work will come later.
I use a program called The Gimp. Just open the image with Gimp, click File - save as - rename if you want - click ok and it will give you the option to resize.

[John P Lebens]

I ran into a guy in Port Townsend with a fine converted Wahl troller today. This boat has been referred to as a jewel box because it is so meticulously restored. One of the first things he wanted to show me was is several months old Nature's head. He installed it to replace a porta-potty (this is a guy's boat). He raved about it - saying it never smelled at all and took almost no electricity to run. The tour included an opportunity to get up close and personal and give it the sniff test. I did, and could detect no smell at all. I was close enough to get a good look at the composting material inside the toilet. It wasn't pretty, but there was no smell.

You can google it for a look at photos of the boat, - "FV Molly Sparks" There are no photos of the Nature's head installation, but you might enjoy looking at the rest of the vessel.

[ILikeRust]

She appears to be for sale, unless this is an old listing that hasn't been taken down yet (http://www.pacificboatbrokers.com/details.asp?File_Number=NW3276).

[John P Lebens]

She appears to be for sale, unless this is an old listing that hasn't been taken down yet (http://www.pacificboatbrokers.com/details.asp?File_Number=NW3276).

She is for sale but now with a different broker and "reduced" in price. It would be one way to get a composting toilet.

[ILikeRust]

World's most expensive composting toilet, but it comes with a free boat?

[KAIROS]

.... almost no electricity to run...

I imagine you power-boaters have a different definition of this phrase than sail-boaters....regardless, there are some really efficient options for the exhaust fan.

Does he run the exhaust fan off battery power (I assume) or did he install one of the solar powered vents, which most sail-boaters would prefer?

[John P Lebens]

I think he runs it off the batteries, but he also has a fairly large solar panel to provide some charging. The fan load according to the Nature's Head site is 2 amp/hours per day or .083 amps per hour.

That's correct - you can buy the toilet for $330k and he'll throw in the boat for free.

(The vessel is lit exclusively with LED - he quoted me the amp hour draw and it was on the order of a couple of amp/hours for the entire salon.)

[Bob Cleek]

I am very into my airhead but BUT BUT especially if you have a crew of beer drinking women, be prepared to drain the urine tank a couple times a day.

I gotta ask, Ian... do you turn around and sail back to the dock in the middle of the day just to drain the tank, or...?

[Ian McColgin]

I invoke my fifth ammendment rights - that's the right to another fifth.

Seriously, thus far the occasion has only arisen where discharge was lawful anyway, thanks to good planning, but the day may come when I have to either carry a pour off tank or somehow improvise a seriously larger tank, maybe by syphon from the site gauge.

[Phil Y]

I just liked this bit from the Airhead maker-"So over the years I believe I have created something that is solid"

I've never used one, but seem like a great idea.

Phil

[PeterSibley]

The idea is extremely good , no pump outs ,one less hole in the boat .Definitely for me .

[Ian McColgin]

A further note on the AirHead and dry compost toiletts in general: The Toilet Paper Problem.

Before that - one thing not stressed enough by AirHead et al is that you need to consider where you'll be finishing the compost process after it leaves the tank in your head. It really needs a full year minimum with nothing new being added. The composting bin need be nothing more than a barrel screaned at both ends but you'll want two so that one can be left a full year or more with no new deposits. This is not such a big deal - Marmalade's head, used about daily by myself and add guests less than 90 days a year, needs emptying twice a year. So it's not like huge barrels or anything.

The toilet paper will compost - - - eventually. So will the coffee filters if you use them. However it takes more than a year. This is actually a good thing since the unsightly white visible before full composting is a good clue that it's a bit early to spread on your garden.

Some installations discourage putting toilet paper into the system. I think that besides opening the door to too-early spreading, that just moves the soiled toilett paper problem. Unless you've trained all to use damp towels, and that involves other hygene issues that can be dealt with but take some training.

Note that most shore composting systems need peat or sawdust added on each use. The AirHead model, on the other hand, stirs things every use and so does not need more and more peat for airation.

[PeterSibley]

The way to make the material disappear quickly Ian is to bury it in topsoil and mix it in well .It will be indistinguishable in 8 weeks .Whether or not such things are legal in your flower garden is another point .

[landlocked sailor]

I pulled the plug and bought a Nature's Head. A 5 day cruise on the Chesapeake with a porta-potti was the final straw. I went back and forth between the two composting heads for a year, following this thread closely. My choice was made by delivery time; Nature's Head shipped that day while the Airhead had a 1-2 week wait.
We used it on a 3 day cruise last week and I can say, without reservation, that I am delighted. Installation was a snap, the handling of liquids/solid works as claimed and there is no smell. Zero. Nada. Both units are pricey but the ease of operation, lack of holding tank and no pump outs really make them a bargain. Rick

[DerrickOgden123]

Some of the janitorial services our making good bowl for their commercial cleaning to showed


residential cleaning so they make them happy and I was using bowl with the airhead and it is very accurate!



thanks for sharing the great knowledge about AirHead

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Friends are very satisfied wth their Nature's Head. We plan to get one; maybe for next seasom.

Moby Nick

[George Ray]

Great to hear the continued reports of satisfied composters. We will likely join the club in the near future

[Sailor]

Speaking of composting, anybody read the humanure handbook? A bit off topic, sorry.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Question about the urine tank:

Do you have multiple NH or AH tanks? Or do you pour contents of the fitted tank into a stout plastic jug stowed in the lazarette untill you find a suitable place to get rid of it?

Moby Nick

[landlocked sailor]

Nick, the NH tank lasted about 3 full days. A second tank would be a convenience but we put into port somewhere at least that often so I haven't contemplated buying one yet. Rick

[chill]

I had a air head put into my Gypsy build.
So far it has been used 2 or 3 times for #2.
No smell at all. I have ours hooked up to a solar panel vent instead of the stock vent provided. Seems to work fine.

[landlocked sailor]

Second cruise; 4 days on the Erie Canal. Number 2 is not an issue, no smell whatsoever. The urine tank fills up pretty fast but is easy to empty everywhere. Again, the only reason I chose the Nature's Head over the Airhead was availability; NH shipped the same day while the AH had a 2 week lead time. The Naturehead really is a nice product. Rick

[Jay Greer]

We use an Herreshoff cedar bucket on "Bright Star". When in port a liner known as a "Wag Bag" is placed in the container which turns any moisure into a solid and also masks the odor of urine and solid waste. Just as a disposable diaper, the used wag bag can be taken ashore and disposed of in the same manner. At sea wag bags are unnessisary. "Wag Bags" can be purchased at REI or most camping suppliers.
http://www.rei.com/product/662978/cleanwaste-wag-bag-waste-bags-package-of-12
Jay
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8d832b3127ccec40f77b7747e00000020O00QYsmrNy5bsQ e3nwg/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/

[John P Lebens]

Hey Jay - always the traditionalist! Although that Wag Bag idea is pretty high tech. I need to get over to REI and check it out.

Do you know how it came to be called "Wag?" All I can think of is someone walking down the docks swinging a bag of the stuff.

[ILikeRust]

Do you know how it came to be called "Wag?" All I can think of is someone walking down the docks swinging a bag of the stuff.

It's actually "WAG". I'm betting it started out as an acronym - probably something like "water absorbing gel," since it has something like that in it.

[Jay Greer]

I think Bill's explanation is much better than considering the refrence evolving from a means of picking up after your pooch. When bringing the trash bucket contents up from the cabin it is a simple and legal procedure to include the evening Wag Bag in the morning dumpster run.
Cheers,
Jay

[redbopeep]

We've been living aboard with an Airhead composting toilet since we relaunched the boat in 4/2009. We had the Airhead in the boat when we moved aboard in the boatyard 8/2008 but only used it for dire emergency when there.

Experiences:

I drink lots of water and hubby does too. So, we quickly learned that we should have two liquid tanks--the one we use and one in "reserve" just in case. The tank can be easily carried to a marina bathroom if you're at a marina. In the past two years we've usually not been in a marina but at anchor. That means either emptying urine overboard (when at sea/ not in a no-discharge zone) or rowing and then carrying the tank(s) to a shore-side facility (yes, a hassle). Many people do plumb an existing holding tank to hold urine and then discharge it while at sea.

We empty the solid waste into a trash bag and place it in a dumpster every 2 to 5 months. If you don't use the solid waste part of the toilet enough (you're using a shore side facility), because of the fan, what is there will simply dry out and not compost. We were advised by Airhead that if we wanted to use the compost we should have two solid waste tanks as well so that we'd remove one and let it continue composting for a few weeks before spreading the compost. Since we don't have a need for compost and throw it away, we don't do this. The solids tank comes with a lid for this purpose.

Cleaning--we have a small spray bottle with white vinegar in it and spray the bowl after EACH use. That goes very far to keeping things clean. The coffee filter prevents the solid waste from soiling anything as well. Every month, I take the toilet tank part off of the solid tank (put the lid on the solid tank for the interim) and scrub clean the "toilet" part of the whole system. I use Simple Green when cleaning it. The liquid waste containers get rinsed out more frequently as they're emptied but also are scrubbed during this cleaning evolution.

We've managed to break the agitator recently and upon calling Airhead learned that it was re-designed because of the problem we experienced (a screw holding a socket for the handle failed). So, even though it had been 3 years since we purchased the Airhead, they sent us the new design replacement agitator for free (we paid the shipping which was not costly at all).

Our impressions were that Airhead had great customer service and that we like having this system aboard. Visitors to the boat hate the entire system though.


Other stuff--
Our head (the room) is very large. So, we actually have the originally installed Skipper head direct discharge in that room as well as the Airhead composting toilet. This is so the Skipper can be used at sea.

If you have a toilet that was installed direct discharge prior to regulations forbidding it (the date is something like 1978 or so) it is not illegal to keep that toilet but it can only be used where it's legal to do so--that's out at sea if you're in the US.

Hope this info is helpful.

[John P Lebens]

Well, we put down our money and bought an Airhead. We chose it mainly because it will fit our space better than the Nature's head. I also like buying the "original" instead of a knockoff. Soon, we'll be removing the old system of three noisy pumps, a holding tank and many feet of stinky hose. We can abandon two through-hulls. Other than some urine, we won't contribute a thing to the waterways or the wastewater system. The airhead will have one tiny computer fan and two or three other simple moving parts. Photos to follow in a few days. Of course the promise is high, but the proof will be in how it actually works.

[Jon Agne]

Looking forward to the photos. I've been back and forth several times about how to upgrade my ancient system, and everyone's comments here are appreciated. One week it's upgrading the holding tank, the next week, AirHead, and the week following it's the Raritan ElectroSan. The ladies really kind of like the Wilcox Crittenden bronze throne (Winner), so it's kind of hard to part with it on the floating woodpile.

[George Ray]

Thanks all for sharing your thoughts and experiences, we will likely install a composting head this year.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Just to churn things over a little bit, here is something that is considerably less expensive than either Natures Head or Air Head. Not too $hitty either,considering its' miserable fate........

http://www.c-head.com/ (http://www.c-head.com/)



Cheers!



Peter

[KAIROS]

Just to churn things over a little bit, here is something that is considerably less expensive than either Natures Head or Air Head. Not too $hitty either,considering its' miserable fate....... http://www.c-head.com/ (http://www.c-head.com/) Cheers! Peter

There's booklet and manual pdf files here.....I put them on my website for easier access.....they're also available on the C-Head Yahoo Group site. Page 5 of the booklet makes some good points:

Booklet: http://www.yachtflyers.com/forum_images/C_Head_Book.pdf

Manual: http://www.yachtflyers.com/forum_images/C_Head_Manual.pdf

[P.L.Lenihan]

Thanks for those two links,KAIROS.I would never have thought there was also a Yahoo group for a compositing head. What a sheltered life I lead!


Cheers!


Peter

[John P Lebens]

Another indicator of the value of composting toilets: At a boating symposium in Port Townsend a couple of weeks ago there was a discussion of boating reliability issues. Of course heads came up as a topic. After the usual discussion of stinky hoses and holding tanks and failed pumps, a woman behind me practically leaped out of her chair to shout the praises of her composting toilet (Airhead). A second lady working at the Chandlery also spoke glowingly of her composting toilet. If women like them, it's a good sign.

[KAIROS]

C-Head: My first impressions, after viewing the company website (http://www.c-head.com/), watching the videos, and reading the pdf documents.......

The main difference, functionally, between Air/Natures-Head and C-Head, is that for the C-Head solid waste does not stay as long in the compost chamber.....or in this case 'bucket'. The waste is prepared, by the mixing device, to be more easily transferred to another sealed bucket. This separate bucket can be stored aboard until full then taken ashore for disposal, home to complete the composting process, or emptied offshore. So, the C-Head is emptied more often than Air/Natures and the waste continues to compost outside of the head device itself. Instead of a relatively large composting tank as part of the head itself (Air/Natures), you carry a separate bucket.....and you have to 'manage' the waste more often. [edit: I like the 'lower-tech' of the C-Head, and not sure that emptying it more often is a big issue. Still on the fence.]

[KAIROS]

I asked Sandy Graves at C-Head (http://www.c-head.com/) to discuss his system and how it compares to the Air Head and Nature's Head. The Air Head and Nature's Head folks had their chance in posts 14 & 27 on Page 1 of this thread. Mr. Graves is a sailor (on the phone, I had to call back because he was about to anchor). Here's what he wrote in an email today (quote):

".....First let me say that it is a mistake to think of the C-Head as a smaller, cheaper version of the Airhead or the Nature’s Head simply because it is a compact composting toilet. While there are significant similarities between the three, the C-Head is a true hybrid that lies somewhere between an Airhead/Nature’s Head compact composting toilets and a Dometic or Thetford type porta-potty.

First, the C-Head is shorter and narrower than the other compact composting toilets and about the same height as a tall porta-potty; 18 inches tall to be exact.

The separate removable collection containers for solid waste and for urine are located inside the housing which you access by lifting the top lid. It does not require that you disassemble, detach and invert the toilet from the pedestal to empty either the urine or solid waste collection containers. Removing the containers is very easy and requires little effort. It also has a watertight pan inside the housing that acts as a secondary catchment for any spills from the collection containers.

You also have the option of using a round or elongated toilet seat depending on the amount of space available.
The churn handle is large and comfortable and cranks from the top instead of the side giving you plenty of elbow room to work and keeping your face away from the toilet.

The solid waste collection container will hold about 15 uses before it needs to be emptied. One week for two people using it daily. This is more often than the other toilets but emptying the C-Head is simplicity itself. This more frequent emptying has the added advantage of preventing the development of sewer flies and often no ventilation system is required depending on the environment you are in and how you use the system.

The urine is collected in a common one gallon water jug. It must be emptied daily for two people using it, but it offers a versatility the other toilets don’t. You can change out and store the gallon jugs until the urine can be disposed of in a restroom or poured overboard. They are easy and very cheap to replace when they become discolored. Plus being in the habit of emptying or exchanging the jugs on a daily schedule prevents over filling and accidental spills.

The real advantage of the C-Head system comes with the amount of waste you can store. Transferring the solid waste from the collection container to a disposable 5-gal bucket using the supplied ventilation hood adaptor takes about 5-6 weeks before the bucket is full with two people using it daily. Four buckets will store a half a year’s waste if you are so inclined. Airhead and Nature’s Head offer a secondary composting base as an option, but that is expensive and inadequate.

In my opinion, the greatest advantage is that with the C-Head system, you are discarding waste in a rigid sealed protective container rather than a plastic bag. Compact composting toilets (the C-Head included) do not come close to fully composting solid waste and what is being discarded is full of human pathogens. As composting toilets become more popular, discarding waste in a plastic bag will probably not be an option.

Finally, the C-Head is about a third of the cost if you compare it to a comparable set up using the Airhead or Nature’s Head systems. Replacement parts are very inexpensive and repairs are simple and intuitive.

There are several other advantages with the C-Head but in the spirit of keeping a long story short, I will stop here."

[GregW]

Good information being posted here. Good work.

[suedebriar]

Good information being posted here. Good work.

I just found out that Bacons of Annapolis is the distributor of Natures Head and was just getting ready to buy.
I checked out the C-head web site and am surprized by the mention of "insects" being a problem. No one has yet mentioned "insects"? Is it really a problem or?

[Ian McColgin]

Not a problem if you have a screen on the exhaust.