PDA

View Full Version : All energy technologies have their dangers



David G
05-04-2010, 09:04 PM
http://politicalirony.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Stei100430.gif

Phillip Allen
05-04-2010, 09:06 PM
:).

seanz
05-04-2010, 09:17 PM
Oh No! Not the terrible visual pollution of wind turbines......save us!

Phillip Allen
05-04-2010, 09:23 PM
I guess you know that it WILL interfere with boating...homland security won't let anyone near the things

PeterSibley
05-04-2010, 11:17 PM
Does that make them the problem ...or homeland security ?

varadero
05-04-2010, 11:40 PM
Bird Killers?
http://www.theresilientearth.com/?q=content/wind-power-green-and-deadly

seanz
05-04-2010, 11:46 PM
True. Though birds may have a chance to adapt. They're not really getting that chance with an oil-slick.

yzer
05-05-2010, 12:40 AM
Wind farms present an environmental risk to birds but the risk can be mitigated to some degree. The Shiloh wind farm located in the Montezuma Hills is less than twenty miles from where I live. I pass through this area on the way to the boat. Most of these big turbines are temporarily shut down or geared down twice a year during bird migrations along the flyway.

This mitigation procedure was developed after conducting a wildlife mortality survey.

This a fairly large wind farm with about 300 200+ ft. towers. Maximum output is about the same as 1/3 of a GE AP-1000 nuclear power plant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiloh_Wind_Power_Plant

varadero
05-05-2010, 01:08 AM
Bat killers?
http://theresilientearth.com/?q=content/wind-turbines-spread-while-bats-take-beating

varadero
05-05-2010, 01:15 AM
And they may add to global warming!
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2010/climate-wind-0312.html :rolleyes:

seanz
05-05-2010, 01:58 AM
Impossible! They're fans, they'll cause cooling.

Ron Williamson
05-05-2010, 05:19 AM
Lots of people are claiming that the low Hz noise/vibration,16 rpm swishing sounds and shadow flicker(blade cutting sunlight temporarily) is making them mental.
I suspect that lots of them were already.


Warming and cooling?That's CRAP!
Since they are giant propellers,I think that will alter the rotational speed and direction of the earth.
R

seanz
05-05-2010, 05:29 AM
If we aimed them in the right direction could be push the Earth into a cooler orbit?

varadero
05-05-2010, 05:41 AM
I have seen oil paintings done by old dutch guys in Holland back in the 17 century. Lots and lots of windmills, and the canals are so frozen people are ice skating on them. I think they will probably cause cooling, just like big fans.

Ron Williamson
05-05-2010, 05:41 AM
No doubt whatsoever.
R

paladin
05-05-2010, 06:58 AM
If you look at the sun or shadows from the rotating blades it can cause a mental problem....it's like driving down the highway at night at about 30 miles an hour with your headlights on and watching the white lines pass you by, you get hypnotized and have an accident....same reasons the back of propeller blades are painted black. It's called flicker vertigo...look it up.

skuthorp
05-05-2010, 07:01 AM
Hmm, I was thinking of a slalom course for sail boats. Actually that could be real fun in a skiff I reckon.

seanz
05-05-2010, 07:12 AM
If you look at the sun or shadows from the rotating blades it can cause a mental problem....it's like driving down the highway at night at about 30 miles an hour with your headlights on and watching the white lines pass you by, you get hypnotized and have an accident....same reasons the back of propeller blades are painted black. It's called flicker vertigo...look it up.

Interesting......we have Poplar trees here in long rows, planted as hedges....has a very distracting effect at certain times of the day.

botebum
05-05-2010, 07:16 AM
It's called flicker vertigo...look it up.I did. Interesting-

From Wiki- Flicker vertigo is "an imbalance in brain-cell activity caused by exposure to low-frequency flickering (or flashing) of a relatively bright light" [1]

Flicker vertigo is a phenomenon that is more often observed during helicopter flight, but it can occur in fixed wing flight whenever flickering light conditions exist. Flicker vertigo in the helicopter occurs when the pilot or front passenger looks up through the blades of the main rotor as it turns in the sun causing the light to strobe. The strobe light effect causes persons who are vulnerable to flicker vertigo to become disoriented, lose control of the aircraft or have a seizure.

According to The US Naval Flight Surgeons Manual, flicker vertigo is a rare occurrence.

Doug

paladin
05-05-2010, 11:33 AM
Yup...killed a lot of pilots until they figgered out the cause.....about 16 hertz.....you get the same effect from old timey movies that moved at a slower frame rate.

Ron Williamson
05-05-2010, 11:52 AM
IIRC, it's the smaller high speed turbines in large groups that are the problem to birds.The stats are applied,incorrectly, to all installations.
R

Dan McCosh
05-05-2010, 03:30 PM
To kill the most birds, you would have to locate the wind turbines offshore in the middle of the lake where birds congregate in the largest numbers while migrating. There the birds mass annually in large flocks on the water, where they take off as a mass when disturbed. This is apparently the thinking behind the wind farms planned in Canadian waters of Lake St. Clair and Lake Erie. The lure is to harness the local winds, which average about 10 mph or less half the time, progressively worse off shore.

John Meachen
05-05-2010, 04:01 PM
I sail at club located about five miles from an offshore wind farm.The electricity output seems to be a significant amount less than the proponents of the technology were claiming and there have been problems with the gearboxes at the business end of the machinery as well as the need to replace the cables to shore.On the other hand,we have not observed bird casualties and I strongly suspect that the creation of a no fishing zone has had a beneficial effect on aquatic life.

Lew Barrett
05-05-2010, 04:07 PM
Too many people. The easiest thing we could do with the most beneficial immediate results is stem the growth of mankind. Draconian? Certainly. Beneficial; anybody care to take the other side of this solution? There are way too many of us to envision a happy ending for everybody, with energy aplenty for all.

Dan McCosh
05-05-2010, 04:29 PM
I sail at club located about five miles from an offshore wind farm.The electricity output seems to be a significant amount less than the proponents of the technology were claiming and there have been problems with the gearboxes at the business end of the machinery as well as the need to replace the cables to shore.On the other hand,we have not observed bird casualties and I strongly suspect that the creation of a no fishing zone has had a beneficial effect on aquatic life.

Do water birds mass in flocks a half-mile across or more during the migration season in your area? I am talking about one of largest migratory flyways on the planet. Maintenance is an interesting issue as well, since the lake is a mass of broken floating ice most of the winter--thick enough to stop a boat, too thin to walk on. Also--do you sail very close to the windmills? The proposal here is for an average of one every square mile across the lake.

Chris Ostlind
05-05-2010, 04:44 PM
Yup...killed a lot of pilots until they figgered out the cause.....about 16 hertz.....you get the same effect from old timey movies that moved at a slower frame rate.


Yeah, they warned us about this in film school. Seems hundreds of unsuspecting movie-goers met an early demise after being lured into a theater. Turns-out that the real culprits were the horny fellows who thought that they could mildly hypnotize their lovely dates and get away with serious gropage.

John Meachen
05-05-2010, 04:46 PM
Do water birds mass in flocks a half-mile across or more during the migration season in your area? I am talking about one of largest migratory flyways on the planet. Maintenance is an interesting issue as well, since the lake is a mass of broken floating ice most of the winter--thick enough to stop a boat, too thin to walk on. Also--do you sail very close to the windmills? The proposal here is for an average of one every square mile across the lake.
We have thirty three windmills and while there are migratory birds,they tend to be in flocks of a few dozen to perhaps four-five thousand.I suspect that overhead power lines reduce the numbers of birds by a much greater amount than the turbines.Access for maintenance is not too much of a problem as the offshore sandbanks take the sting out of the waves and there is very little risk of a frost.

yzer
05-05-2010, 05:07 PM
The primary environmental concern with the Shiloh wind farm was its effect on migratory birds. The periodic shutdowns reduced mortality to a number that was deemed insignificant by all parties concerned.

Having lived in this region for forty years I was worried about the effect the turbines might have on the Turkey Vultures that ride the thermals in these hills, especially during lambing season. These birds are magnificent fliers. The mortality survey showed those concerns were not significant, either.

The 300 turbines in the Shiloh project are laid out on a grid plan. The towers are visible day and night in most locations where I boat in the California Delta. At night, the towers are lit with red warning beacons. It appears that 25% or less of the towers are equipped with lights. All towers flash red simultaneously, which is quite an interesting sight when viewed at night from a distance of several miles. I suppose that flashing in unison means all of the area enclosed by red lights is part of the warning area.

Dan McCosh
05-05-2010, 05:21 PM
Why are they on the water in Sacramento?

yzer
05-05-2010, 07:29 PM
No, Shiloh was built on some hills and on private farmland east of Rio Vista. The hills overlook much of the rivers and sloughs of the Central Delta that lie between Rio Vista and Stockton. The red lights meet FAA regulations.

Steve Paskey
05-05-2010, 07:49 PM
If you look at the sun or shadows from the rotating blades it can cause a mental problem....it's like driving down the highway at night at about 30 miles an hour with your headlights on and watching the white lines pass you by, you get hypnotized and have an accident....same reasons the back of propeller blades are painted black. It's called flicker vertigo...look it up.

We have eight wind turbines on the shore of Lake Erie south of Buffalo. As windy as it can be here, I've never seen them spin fast enough to give anyone flicker vertigo.

purri
05-05-2010, 10:14 PM
Interesting......we have Poplar trees here in long rows, planted as hedges....has a very distracting effect at certain times of the day.
It's called Bi-Poplar disorder.:D

seanz
05-05-2010, 10:55 PM
:D.

seafox
05-05-2010, 11:22 PM
Too many people. The easiest thing we could do with the most beneficial immediate results is stem the growth of mankind. Draconian? Certainly. Beneficial; anybody care to take the other side of this solution? There are way too many of us to envision a happy ending for everybody, with energy aplenty for all.

well if you insist we can off all the liberals and all the moslems and that would help a great deal

I belive that the reports of bird deaths had been overreported. years ago paul harvy told a story about a flock of geese that tried to land on a huge gm parking lot thinking it was water and sever was killed , but then it never happened again . think the same result will come from ongoing learning with more wind farms. dumb birds will die off and the smart ones will survive

seafox
05-05-2010, 11:29 PM
I wonder is they set of three lines of towers at 5 10 and 15 miles off shore from say brownsville in texas around to the mouth of the chesipeke with wind mills reacheing a mile high if the numbers of wind mills could take the energy out of huricanes or even blow them away from the country if they were reversed from generating electricty to acting as fans