Where to attach a swim ladder on 19' double ender?

[jsjpd1]

I have a Caledonia Yawl, double ended open boat, and I am planning on adding a rope attached to the gunwhale with a large loop on the end to make it easier to get back into the boat should one find oneself unexpectedly in the water. Where would be the best place to attach it? Would midship at max beam be best, or closer to the stern?

[Paul Pless]

midship is gonna have the lowest sheer to climb over

[Venchka]

Same boat. Same question.

Midship: Easier to climb in. May let water in? Not a problem?
Stern quarter, about halfway between midship and stern: More boat to climb over. Less chance of water coming in.

Scratching my head.

[James McMullen]

You could also just make that hook at the top of the trailing edge of your rudder that works as a step.

[perldog007]

You could also just make that hook at the top of the trailing edge of your rudder that works as a step.

Better yet, he could make a brick or big tortoise, put a rope on the stern transom and tow it. Climb into the box, pull alongside, cross decks.... Simple, elegant, and soothing to the eye :D ( if you can find safety orange in high gloss ).

Seriously though, if you found yourself overboard Rowan, how would you approach reboarding?

[James McMullen]

I would climb in over the stern, using the rudder up/down control line, which I have set up as a continuous loop, as a stirrup if necessary.

[TerryLL]

Kenjamin built a rudder for his CY Xena with steps. Check out his thread:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=99829

[Ian McColgin]

Try first. I found with "Leeward" - 18' chamberlain gunning dory - that from the water I could heave the gunnel down about to water level and essentially swim aboard, bringing but a few gallons with me. A rope loop might cause you to linger too long.

[jsjpd1]

I've seen Kenjamin's rudder, and while I think it is a good idea I'm not terribly keen on building a new rudder. Which is why I was thinking of a simple rope with loop approach.

James, do you have a picture of your rudder setup? The way mine is set up I think I'd have a hard time climbing up that way. Maybe just adding a loop adjacent to the stern post is the answer.

[bruce w]

at very remote place i fell in the drink at the edge of dark mid winter, parbuckeling a driftwood log onboard ,went through a thin skin of ice a step i had cut in the rudder when i built her was truely a life saver ,within seconds my hands had turned to little more than hooks so you also need a good hand hold inboard, that episode visited me for a few nights waking me up fumbling for the rudder step ,and the odd thing was i was shivering ,not sweating as in a dream.

[Ian McColgin]

Note the somewhat related thread at http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=2580668#post2580668

[Paul Pless]

Try first. I found with "Leeward" - 18' chamberlain gunning dory - that from the water I could heave the gunnel down about to water level and essentially swim aboard, bringing but a few gallons with me. A rope loop might cause you to linger too long.Maybe. Try that with a hypothetical broken rib* from cracking it on the gunwale on your way over board though. Best to be sure you can get back in even if you are hurt.



*substitute broken arm, broken jaw, dislocated shoulder, etc. etc.

[Ian McColgin]

I have. Collar bone also. Doubt I could had the injuries been caused in whatever got me out of the boat, but as long as it's had a few hours to start healing . . .

On a canoe you really have to reach across the boat to the other gunnel. On the dory the stability is enough that she won't flip on you and you can work this a bit on one side.

With those injuries, by the way, I could not row and was just sailing Leeward, stopping for a swim here and there.

Nice thing about a boat that can be sailed.

[andrewe]

This has been occupying my mind some too. My Whilly Tern is a bit tippy to come over admidships, so the stern it is. I feel a rope loop will just take ones feet under the keel and give no leverage. A permanent step on the rudder is a way to go, but I also thought up a tempory step that would live in the sternsheets within reach and clip onto the rudder. I better get on with that and the under bench floatation before a 'situation' arises. The water is not too cold arround here, 14C today, which gives a bit more time.
A

[Ian McColgin]

Done rightly, cutting the hole won't weaken the rudder. It does make speed robbing turbulence. Catboats commonly have two steps - one at the waterline and one below. Since they stick out in plane with the waterflow, not so much a problem.

I still think you want to try a bit first. Improvise a rudder step with some clamps and try crawling over the stern of a tippy double ender. This is not like a canoe where you can straddle the gunnels for balance. You have the tiller or jog stick in the way and will likely break it.

Small dinks and prams are indeed best boarded over the stern, assisted by another or by a loop as needed. But a tippy double or narrow ended boat????

Every boat is different.

Anything works someplace.

Nothing works all the time.

[James McMullen]

Neither an Arctic Tern nor a Caledonia Yawl are tippy, though. Practising in a lake to take the mystery away is a good idea, methinks.

[kenjamin]

After finally getting the rudder in place, I looked up and we were drifting right into some creosol poles so I jumped out and saved Xena from a collision that could have been ugly. By then, however, it was over my head deep and I had a heck of a time getting back in the boat at midship. Looking back, thinking this over, I think my crew was so worried about me swamping the boat they leaned the other way and made it even more difficult for me to board. If my crew had had any idea how much water a Caledonia Yawl can take on, they would have been more generous in how low they dipped the rail for me. I really bruised my ribs badly boarding the boat that day. It was enough to make me build a rudder I could climb up next time. Dipping the rail to make it easier for a person boarding might be a good thing to discuss before someone goes overboard rather than after.

[Thorne]

Another related thread -
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=55994&highlight=ladder

[andrewe]

Thorne,
on your other thread, the guy gets in over his transom easily, but in bathing trunks. The sort of gear most of us wear in cool weather is much more burdensom if wet.
After posting earlier, I thought a bit more. Latest idea is to epoxy a ss pin through the rudder just above the WL, the step is hooked onto these by long diagonal ss straps each side of the rudder, putting the step off the trailing edge about 18" below WL. My hardware will stand the load, so I will mock it up and try it on dry land. The Bayraider has a nice one built into the rudder, but it goes against the grain to add a permanent one after spending so much time shaping the foil. ( of course, if swimming around, a chunky great bracket would be very welcome)
A

[Thorne]

How about a notch on the rudder down low enough to get a foot into, and the old standard folding step on the transom?

http://content.westmarine.com/images/catalog/full/117440.jpg

[Paul Pless]

How about a notch on the rudder down low enough to get a foot into, and the old standard folding step on the transom?

http://content.westmarine.com/images/catalog/full/117440.jpgdouble enders don't usually have transoms;)

[Thorne]

Well the side part of the rear-pointy-bit, then...:D:D:D

[kenjamin]

Besides having a guitar-shaped climb-aboard rudder, Xena does have enough "meat" in her outer stern stem so that a pull out step could be mounted if that proves to be advantageous. Thanks, Thorne. Can you get them in stainless? (probably so, I'm guessing...)

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Rudder2434sm.jpg

[Songololo]

The lads at Swallowboats (http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/content/view/133/) have added a step to the trailing edge of their Bay Raider's rudder. Here the kick-up rudder is shown in the folded up position:

http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/images/stories/swallowboats/bayraider/Summer%2007%20237.jpg


I think it looks like an elegant solution...

Would a rudder which has some form of step not need to be secured first i.e. the tiller tied off amidship or off to one side to prevent the rudder from potentially swinging around?

Lance

[jsjpd1]

Kenjamin, now that you have climbing steps in your rudder have you tried it out in the water? It seems like it would be very easy to get hung up in the tiller on the one side or the bumpkin on the other. I was just about on board with the hole in the rudder idea, when I remembered how many obstacles there are back there on the CY.

I suppose the best thing to do is to just go out, get in the water, and see if I can get back in the boat. Since the temperature topped out at a balmy 55 degrees F today, it's not exactly a task I'm looking forward to.

[Daniel Noyes]

Try first. I found with "Leeward" - 18' chamberlain gunning dory - that from the water I could heave the gunnel down about to water level and essentially swim aboard, bringing but a few gallons with me. A rope loop might cause you to linger too long.

best idea yet, and no extra clap trap required attached to your rudder, or mounted on the side of your boat...
and looking at the stern of a Cal Yawl I cant imagine a middle aged, less than athletic man in loads of soaking wet gear, already a bit winded from the shock of going overboard, and the swim, trying to climb over that high stern on a bouncing and swinging rudder around the yoke and tiller and boomkin and mizzen mast!

If you didnt break a rib falling out you sure will have cracked a few by the time you tumble in over a sharp Norwegien styled stern post.

A double ender will be tippy with no one aboard and a heavy gent clamboring in over the narrow stern

[wizbang 13]

Aw jeeze, you can't do one pull up? a 19'er?

[jsjpd1]

Aw jeeze, you can't do one pull up? a 19'er?

Can I? You bet, on a nice calm sunny out messing around, no problem. Can my wife? I'm not so sure. Just thinking something to give you a leg up might be a good idea.

[Daniel Noyes]

Try first. I found with "Leeward" - 18' chamberlain gunning dory - that from the water I could heave the gunnel down about to water level and essentially swim aboard, bringing but a few gallons with me. A rope loop might cause you to linger too long.


Banks dory fisherman used just this same technique when landing a big 400+ lb Halibut
pull the fish up along the dory amidships right against the rail, stand on the rail pushing it below water level and let the water pressure push the big fish right into the dory, only a few cups of water are shiped when done right.

[Daniel Noyes]

Can I? You bet, on a nice calm sunny out messing around, no problem. Can my wife? I'm not so sure. Just thinking something to give you a leg up might be a good idea.

you dont want to make your wife climb up over the stern, my wife Lauren is 28 and very capable but I wouldnt ask her to try that.

[James McMullen]

I've hauled in clumsy Springer Spaniels using just the technique that Daniel mentioned.

I only know of one instance where a Caledonia Yawl ever capsized though, and that was from tripping itself in an anchoring error in current.

[jsjpd1]

Well, the wife, kids, and I just had a little mini adventure down to the boat on its mooring. Sitting on the rail with my feet strait over the side I could get the rail down to about 10 inches above the water, then it would go no farther. Same result with me completely over the side holding myself up on the rail. This was with everybody in the boat and 200 lbs of lead in the bottom. I don't think we'll be swimming over the rail, but as long as there are two us the one still in the boat should be able to assist the other in getting back in.

[Venchka]

Thanks for volunteering to test the principle in the real, cold, water. Methinks a rope loop for a "leg up" is in order for the solo C.Y. skipper. Attached through the spare thole pin holes port & starboard. Sized large enough for big rubber boots.

Cheers!

[Ian McColgin]

One trick I use for the foot loops I carry kayaking and on the dink - thread some clear plastic hose over the loop before splicing. That will hold it openwhile you try to stick you foot in.

[Venchka]

I was thinking something similar. Thanks Ian.

[kenjamin]

Kenjamin, now that you have climbing steps in your rudder have you tried it out in the water? It seems like it would be very easy to get hung up in the tiller on the one side or the bumpkin on the other. I was just about on board with the hole in the rudder idea, when I remembered how many obstacles there are back there on the CY.

No, I haven't tried it in the water yet but I have climbed on it with the boat strapped down to the trailer in my driveway. It's plenty strong enough for me to climb up and the tiller yoke can be easily removed if it seems in the way. The yoke is leather lined where it meets the rudder and it's pretty easy to bump off when hit from the bottom which is where I would be if wanting to board from the stern. As I said earlier, if the crew had been better trained (my bad) they would have let the rail dip lower to the water so that I could have boarded much more easily from midship. Another problem at the time of my jumping (not falling) overboard was that my gunwales were not finished or rounded in any way. I had left them sharp edged with the idea of laminating more layers of fir later on. This caused some bad scraping on my ribs which took a couple of weeks to heal.

What's interesting is that each boat will be different and how you will want to climb aboard will vary depending on crew weight, their training, boat shape and size, etc. With Xena, it would be a very odd circumstance for there not to be several crew members available to help. The list of people to go sailing on Xena is long and growing. Crew enlistment is not a problem. I like the idea of them dipping the rail low enough for me to just splash aboard. Seems like it would be easier than climbing the rudder although I like that, for now, it is still available as another option. When Xena finally gets her final complete set of new sails, the guitar rudder will have to go in favor of a more efficient one for racing. Everyone, including me, wants to know how Xena's birdwing rig compares to the "as drawn" rigs and I'm certainly not going to let slow inefficient foils influence the comparison. Xena will be armed to the teeth (NACA foils) when we race other Caledonia Yawls. My theory is that Xena's mast is strong enough to set a big genoa (waiting to be sewed) and her new birdwing mizzen is quite a bit larger than her old mizzen. The mizzen on a yawl is not supposed to be a driving sail but I'm hoping the larger mizzen will balance out the larger head sail. We will see. The point is I'm having a heck of a good time experimenting.:p

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Xenasails2.jpg

[James McMullen]

Pile on that sail area, Kenjamin! Think "birdwing tops'ls" next.

[kenjamin]

In D. H. Clarke's book, Multihull Primer, there's an interesting comparison of pictures of a trimaran. One picture shows the boat leaving with the stock sails on a world tour. The next picture shows it returning a year or so later with a staysail on the mizzen, a top sail, and a couple of other additional sails it had picked up along the way. It looked like a huge solar clothes dryer for a large family. There were patches of sailcloth all over that boat.

[James McMullen]

Tradewind sailing is different from round-the-buoys. Sailing in sunny weather and warm water is different from all-conditions sailing in higher latitudes. Different cats, different rats.

[kenjamin]

And two 19' double enders are going to max out their hull speed and not plane easily no matter what water they are in (unless one is having to plough through an oil slick). I would gladly trade you an oil slick for a whole bunch of very cold water. Darn glad Xena trailers so easily to the East coast. Sorry for the thread drift. Homemade swim ladders are cheap, try one midship and then one at the stern. Find out which one works best for you. Hint: you only need to build one to run the tests.