When a dory is tender?

[andrewmct]

Ok,
I'm new to boat building but I want to build a beach camping boat with legendary rough water performance for swell and waves off British Columbia's west coast. For ease of building(truly needs to be easy), getting the boat ashore(flat bottom), performance, etc; the dory seems like a good choice. I'm looking at the Spira Alaskan (19ft). Initially, I was leaning toward a powered dory design but the boat was then getting more complex than I wanted and I started thinking that a double ended boat was better for beaching. I want to go about 10-15 kts. In my constant reading on the subject, I hear a lot about "tender" dories when more lightly loaded. Is the Spira Alaskan a disaster waiting to happen while outboarding to a Pacific beach? I know, there is some eye rolling going on but a new boatbuilder like me does not want to waste my time on a dud choice that is unsafe with my limited time and budget.

Thanks, Andrew

[Venchka]

Dories sometimes get a bad rap for being tender & "cranky" when lightly loaded. Throw about half a ton of fish or rocks in a dory and they settle down and become very well behaved.

You can't talk doeies without mentioning the Dory Shop. Take a look at the cargo capacity on the specs. page. Those numbers are real. Dories carry a lot of cargo. They may actually require it.

http://www.doryshop.com/

[G.Sherman]

When you can take the fork out?:)

[L.W. Baxter]

Howdy Andrew.

There's dories and then there's dories. The dories that you hear are tender are the narrow rowing and sailing dories, like the Swampscott or Banks dories. Power dories intended for planing speeds (like the Spira boat, also see Glen L Little Hunk, Ken Swan's Nez Perce skiff, semi-dories from Gardner's book, Pacific City style dories etc.) are significantly different in form. They are much wider on the bottom and therefore quite stable. They also have a straight run on the bottom (no rocker in the aft sections) as they are designed for planing speeds.

I think you have a good handle on your requirements. If you want to go 10-15 knots (definitely planing speeds for any dory hull) you definitely want a relatively wide-bottom dory designed for those speeds. I would suggest only that you look around a bit before settling on the Alaskan, just because you might find something that you find more attractive.

[TerryLL]

The Spira Alaskan would be a good choice for an easily-built coastal cruiser. I made a 900-mile trek up the Pacific Coast to SE Alaska in a very similar boat, the 23' Cape Ann Dory.

http://www.spirainternational.com/gl_alas.gif

Your top speed in this hull will be about 5 kts. No amount of power will make it go faster. If you must have 15 kts you need to consider a planing hull (not a double-ender). Either type will be fine for beaching. Planing Pacific dories routinely beach on the Oregon coast through the surf (not for the inexperienced).

So what exactly does "tender" mean to you? A common misconception is that Dories like the Alaskan and Cape Ann are prone to capsize, because they are tender. Not correct. These are very capable hulls in bad weather. Tender only means that they have low initial stability and tend to pitch and roll in a seaway. These hulls react quickly to changing wave heights, which is why they are so seaworthy. Adding weight in the bottom of the hull makes for a more comfortable ride. You don't need a thousand pounds. The camping gear, fuel, water, and food I carried was plenty of weight.

[L.W. Baxter]

Oops. I had a different boat in mind when thinking of the Spira Alaskan. Terry is correct about the speed potential and characteristics of that design. The rest of my post stands.

[andrewmct]

When you can take the fork out?:)

My wooden boat knowledge is rather limited but I do know that dories are supposed to stay wet and juicy on the outside and dry inside, therefore, poking with a fork would be bad.

[andrewmct]

Thank you, Terry for the "tender" explanation. I was worried that it meant un-stable. Like you said, the boat will have a motor, gas, beer, food, etc in the bottom. I looked at the dory shop site. Nice boats but I don't think I want to have one made for me and I think for a first boat I want to stick to ply construction. I don't know of any other traditional ones other than Spira dories.

[TerryLL]

Here's a couple pics of the Cape Ann Dory. Simple construction and a lot of boat for the money.

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/CapeAnnConst2.jpg

http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k365/TerryLava/cape_ann1.jpg?t=1247512380

As I recall, we've already had this conversation about 6 months ago.

Here's the thread:
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=99817

[AstoriaDave]

Ok, I'm new to boat building but I want to build a beach camping boat with legendary rough water performance for swell and waves off British Columbia's west coast. For ease of building(truly needs to be easy), getting the boat ashore(flat bottom), performance, etc; the dory seems like a good choice. Andrew, I know some of that coastline, having paddled parts of it. I'm wondering about where you plan to beach your boat. Even some of the more "protected" outer bays have a lot of surge on them ... high tide might be a washout for you.

However, you have probably already dosed this out.

A dory style hull is a good choice for that service. Good luck with your choice, and please keep us informed.

[andrewmct]

We did Terry. I had settled on the nexus marine dory and even had my credit card out to buy plans when I spoke to a family friend who got me into all this mess in the first place. The problem I ended up having with the nexus boat was that it was leaning toward general utility runabout ( and a wave catching stern) more than a beach camper. The cost was escalating too. I would need a bigger engine, etc ( I want to take the motor off and store it in the basement). I want simple to be the key here. So, I now have my credit card out for the Spira dory. There is a blog that a nice guy has put on-line on his step by step Spira Alaskan build. I thought it would be handy to have him make the mistakes. I think the 19 is a good choice but I worry that it's not enough. The boat is for pulling up on some of the beaches on the north island (Vancouver Island) and further up the coast too. I have participated in several freighter canoe trips that family friends do. Some beaches are a little tough to get into and so pulling up the beach is necessary - not anchoring the boat. We used Rolleez beach wheels on hardwood axels to get the 23' freighters up the beach. I hope the 19 isn't too small. The 24' Spira dory just seems a little big for me (back to the same bigger/more complex problem). I'm not going to Japan in the thing but I want useful and safe. I have the wood now and I just want to shut up and build but still struggling with which one.

[perldog007]

Thank you, Terry for the "tender" explanation. I was worried that it meant un-stable. Like you said, the boat will have a motor, gas, beer, food, etc in the bottom. I looked at the dory shop site. Nice boats but I don't think I want to have one made for me and I think for a first boat I want to stick to ply construction. I don't know of any other traditional ones other than Spira dories.

I am also a newbie ( one plywood bolger pond box built, and loved so far) contemplating a rowboat for OTP ( other than ponds ). I am gathering materials for a Bolger Gloucester Light Dory Type VI. It also is said to have very little initial stability. The word 'Tippy' is often mentioned in connection with this model

Chappelle's American Small Sailing Craft, Chappelles Boatbuilding, John Gardner's Dory Book, John Gardner's Building Classic Small Craft, and Ian Oughtred's Plywood Clinker Boatbuilding among others are books I have found helpful.

I am sure that McMullen would encourage you to look Oughtred's Mackerel and other dories. I like Jeff Spira's work too. Butler projects has reasonably priced plans for a gunning dory,

You can get builder's plans for a number of classic dories from Dynamite Payson's Down East Dories, http://instantboats.com/downeastdories/ among other place. I believe Dynamite has plans for the 23' Cape Ann like Terry built, as does Chappelle's American Small Sailing Craft. Garder's Dory book should be considered a must read for us newbies as it answers so many questions and raises so many others.

Good luck! I am about to make the first cuts for the frame molds on my Gloucester Light Dory.

[TerryLL]

I have participated in several freighter canoe trips that family friends do. Some beaches are a little tough to get into and so pulling up the beach is necessary - not anchoring the boat. We used Rolleez beach wheels on hardwood axels to get the 23' freighters up the beach. I hope the 19 isn't too small.

I found the 23' Cape Ann cramped for an extended cruise and would advise you to take another look at the 24'. The cost for materials will be a bit higher but the amount of time and labor will be about the same, and both hulls can be efficiently pushed with the same 10HP 4-stroke outboard. The 24' will give you more options for dry storage and even an enclosed sleeping area forward.

Neither of these boats will be light enough to easily drag up the beach, but letting them settle on a falling tide is an option. I had no trouble finding protected anchorages up in that neck of the woods, but nice sandy beaches with good camping spots were very rare indeed.

[andrewmct]

Thanks for the advice. I'm sitting here staring at two printouts of dories and I'm trying to compare. It's Dynamite's 23 Cape Ann vs the Spira 24 ft Lab. The Spira is significantly beamier at 7.5 feet vs the CaAnn at 5.5 feet. The min freeboard on the Spira is 2'10'' and, looking at the drawings, appears way deeper. I must admit that the Cape Ann looks prettier but the Spira may be a little easier for the newbie. My guess is that a lot more has to be inferred and that more experience is required to build the Cape Ann. Credit card is still out and indecission is killing me.

[TerryLL]

The 23' Cape Ann on the Instant Boat site is a photocopy of the design that appears in Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft. The lines and offsets are available for the price of the book, or for free from your public library. Construction details are essentially identical to the Spira dories. Even though the original boats were built with solid lumber, no modifications to the lines are required to build the boat in plywood. The sailing rig can be eliminated and the boat can be steered with an outboard in a well just like the Spira dory.

http://www.instantboats.com/downeastdories/images/capeannstudyplan1large.jpg

[Canoeyawl]

Traditional dories are very dangerous if over powered/driven.
Yes, they will plane, but they would rather plane on their side and will throw you right out of the boat to do it.
I think for your projected use you may be disapointed with a traditional dory form.
( I have quite a bit of experience with 20+ foot traditional type dorys, they are a fine low speed, low power hull form. They make poor motor boats and poor sailboats unless compromises are made for the intended use. If you are going to drift around in the ocean and troll a bit there is maybe nothing better. *note - contrary to popular opinion, a wide stern has more reserve bouyancy).

[TerryLL]

Canoeyawl,
The hull form that Andrew is considering is not a planing hull and is suitable only for low displacement speeds. This type of hull is in fact ideally suited to his building skill level and his intended use.

I have no doubt that overdriving a flat-bottomed planing dory will lead to some instability issues, as you state.

[Canoeyawl]

I just noted this ...

I want to go about 10-15 kts.

Thanks, Andrew

[TerryLL]

15 knts is a reasonable and safe speed for a planing dory hull, but the hull Andrew is considering will not pass 5 knts. I do believe he is aware of the speed limitation of the double-ended hull shape.

[Canoeyawl]

A little 18 foot Banks dory with an outboard in a well will easily plane and make it up to the 10 or 15 knot requirement, but they are deadly at those speeds.
(I think we are on the same page here! I just wish to highlight the unpredictabilty and danger of a traditional dory at those asked for speeds)

[TerryLL]

My experience is different than yours. In over 1000 miles of cruising I was never able to push my 23' Cape Ann over 5 knts with a 10HP Honda in a well. I have surfed down the face of some pretty horrific waves at well over 5 knts with complete control.

[purri]

when it tips you out.

[andrewmct]

There are lots of funny people who build boats:). Terry, do you see any difference in performance between the wider beamed boat and the skinny? I know in theory, the wider the boat, the more water has to be pushed aside, and therefore, more drag. The Spira one wouldn't be a clunky, inneficient boat would it?

[TerryLL]

Dories like the Cape Ann and the Spira Alaskan and Labrador are efficient displacement hulls due to the fact they are essentially double-enders on the water line. They have a lot less wetted surface than a planing dory of the same beam, and a smoother water flow past the transom. They are easily pushed to their hull speed (about 5 knts) with very little power (about 10 HP).

As I said earlier, you will not get these hulls to go much past 5 knts even with much larger motors, but you can make terrific huge waves by overpowering them, and use a lot more fuel.

[perldog007]

when in doubt, build a model or two. I am the happy owner of plans I may never build, but consider it much cheaper to buy plans and build a model than to build the wrong damn boat.

Here is one I made of Gavin Atkin's 'Doris the Dory' probably much too small for what you are looking for, but the model was a learning experience. Especially ones like this that don't come out perfect :o

I think that's a Bolger June bug next to it. After I am done with the models my great nephews seem to take great pleasure in playing with them until they dissolve.

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww264/perldog007/IMGP0943.jpg