bronze casting

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha , we are trying to get a fitting made for 1955 kauri wood schooner ceceline,,it is the intermediate bearing and previously was only a slot in the solid rudder.. worms found a little home and I had to evict them and in doing so had to cut out a section of the rudder..now I would like to add a more durable fitting and would like to find a shop or person that can cast a one off fitting without too much cost..welding one out of stainless would be easy and cheap but every fitting on ceceline is bronze so we are sticking with what has worked best..anyone got any good ideas..derrick

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab350/svceceline/hauloutlukehouse022-1.jpg

[kc8pql]

If you can make a pattern, these people can cast your part.
http://www.porttownsendfoundry.com/home.htm
They did a great job on my rudder fittings.

[seo]

You could also have it welded and/or machined out of bronze. Modern CNC milling machines can make incredibly complex parts one-off. Bronze isn't that hard to weld, and lots of machine shops have them. I'd look in the phone book under "metal fabrication" or "machine shop" or something like that.
SEO

[the_gr8t_waldo]

wouldn't this type of installation be better with "sinteret bronze" ? i'm only asking , as i have have no experence with it in marine enviroments http://www.lm-tarbell.com/machining_sintered_bronze.htm

[seo]

As I understand it, "sintered" means basically that the piece starts out as granules of metal, and then is pounded until it coheres as a mass of metal. It's porous, which makes it good for "plain" bearings. The brand name that comes to mind is "Oil lite" bronze, which are sintered bronze sleeve bearings that can be soaked in oil, and the oil penetrates the porous structure, and keeps being lubricated after a typical sleeve bearing would be. I think oil lite is still used, but some of the plastic bushings might do as good a job.
In any event, as far as I know sintered metal wouldn't be a good material to make a structural part out of.

[Canoez]

As I understand it, "sintered" means basically that the piece starts out as granules of metal, and then is pounded until it coheres as a mass of metal. It's porous, which makes it good for "plain" bearings. The brand name that comes to mind is "Oil lite" bronze, which are sintered bronze sleeve bearings that can be soaked in oil, and the oil penetrates the porous structure, and keeps being lubricated after a typical sleeve bearing would be. I think oil lite is still used, but some of the plastic bushings might do as good a job.
In any event, as far as I know sintered metal wouldn't be a good material to make a structural part out of.

"sintered" starts out as granules or powder and is compacted and then thermally fused together. Some sintering processes, particularly laser sintering can result in solid parts - the ones that are not solid tend to be a bit brittle.

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha, thanks for the reply,s ..so far I have gotten one quote for a casting for 450dollars and 450 for the pattern for a total of 900 plus shipping ,probably 1000dollars.. I was hoping on half of that.. looks like buying the pipe and flatbar of bronze and welding looks best idea .. I wonder how strong the welds are as compared to solid casting? I know the machine shop uses a special welding rod but that,s all I know..any knowledgeable persons out there?..derrick

[seo]

I think that a good welder using good equipment can produce welds that are as strong as the work piece. Really good welding is a highly evolved industrial process, not what's done in my shop with a trusty Lincoln 225 Buzzbox. I am at very best a spot welder. Some spots are pretty good-others not so much.
SEO

[Garret]

aloha , we are trying to get a fitting made for 1955 kauri wood schooner ceceline,,it is the intermediate bearing and previously was only a slot in the solid rudder.. worms found a little home and I had to evict them and in doing so had to cut out a section of the rudder..now I would like to add a more durable fitting and would like to find a shop or person that can cast a one off fitting without too much cost..welding one out of stainless would be easy and cheap but every fitting on ceceline is bronze so we are sticking with what has worked best..anyone got any good ideas..derrick

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab350/svceceline/hauloutlukehouse022-1.jpg

What was the original?

I know on my rudder that piece is only kind of a "safety". IOW, it doesn't actually hold the rudder on. Reason being that aligning 3 points is much harder than 2...

So - wouldn't a piece of bronze pipe or rod of the appropriate diameter attached to the rudder work?

Just looked at my rudder (which is waiting for a rebuild). The rudder shaft ends just above the aperture. The shaft that goes into the bottom shoe comes up to the bottom of the aperture. The middle piece attached to the horn timber (identical to the one on your boat) simply goes around the lower shaft & doesn't ever touch it.

Just a thought.... Maybe your setup is different?

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha ,thanks for the reply.. yes something would work.. we priced a 13inch piece of bronze pipe x1/2inch wall at a 110dollars, I have some 1/2inch x2inch bronze bar so probably will get it welded .. just a little unsure how strong it would be, but youre right it would probably work fine but it,s nice to have that little bit of reassurance out at sea in a storm..either way it won,t get replaced till next years haulout so it will have to hold up till then with a little bit of inter island sailing..derrick

[Bob Cleek]

Check out local high schools and junior colleges and see if you can find one that has a metal shop program. We have one here in town and they keep the kids busy casting bronze park bench frames and other geegaws. I'd expect if you made your own pattern, you might be able to get somebody in a shop class to cast it for you. Otherwise, weld it up out of bronze. Any machine shop should be able to do that for you.

[gibetheridge]

I don't know how much you know about pattern making, and I know very little, but don't forget to allow for shrinkage as the casting cools. You'll need a "shrink rule", or "pattern makers rule". I think cast aluminum shrinks about 1/30, don't know about bronze.

[sdowney717]

I was hoping on half of that.. looks like buying the pipe and flatbar of bronze and welding looks best ideayes, Do it yourself with some help where needed.

At Hampton Rubber in Hampton VA, they sell all sorts of bronze and stainless pipe.
I bought some years ago from them and fashioned exhaust outlet extensions for my risers which I converted to fresh water cooling.

http://www.hamptonrubber.com/

I dont know about if they have any flat bar.

[seo]

Half inch wall thickness is really heavy.
You might look around Pearl Harbor for a scrap dealer that buys navy surplus stuff. Lots of engine room stuff, particularly in steam ships, were bronze or monel.

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha here is a picture of where we live 75miles from any city and the boat on oahu 200miles away on another island.. no mooring available here, hard to get access to stuff!

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab350/svceceline/IMG_5560.jpg

here are some pics of the rudder last years haulout..

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab350/svceceline/IMG_6264.jpg

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab350/svceceline/IMG_6267.jpg

here is the offending section removed..before this was all hardwood of some kind..

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab350/svceceline/hauloutlukehouse020-1.jpg

here is the drawing I made while the boat was out of the water..

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab350/svceceline/100_0213.jpg


thanks bob that,s a good idea maybe one of the boatbuiding schools.. the only weak part seems to be where the straps connect welded or cast..thanks for the input everyone derrick

[Ron Williamson]

I had some stuff brazed with 100k psi rod.
Stronger than steel should be enough.
R

[seo]

Brazed? Like with a torch and filler rod? That doesn't sound right, but I'd like to know more.

[kc8pql]

Half inch wall thickness is really heavy.

Yes it is. That 4"wide strap is huge too. That helps explain why they wanted so much to cast it. It's hard to tell from the photos, but that seems like a very heavy fitting for a boat that size.

[Gold Rock]

aloha, thanks for the reply,s ..so far I have gotten one quote for a casting for 450dollars and 450 for the pattern for a total of 900 plus shipping ,probably 1000dollars.. I was hoping on half of that.. looks like buying the pipe and flatbar of bronze and welding looks best idea .. I wonder how strong the welds are as compared to solid casting? I know the machine shop uses a special welding rod but that,s all I know..any knowledgeable persons out there?..derrick

I'm just going to throw this in here.. These threads always run the same script, "I want a top shelf solution, but I don't want to pay what it costs...". Now, I'm not bashing here. Hell, I want the good stuff for cheap too! But think about it.. $1K is too much, but $500 is OK? As you point out, you're a long way from anywhere. The inevitable cost of hustling around for suppliers, materials, information, and ultimately putting it all together to achieve a solution will eat up a signifigant chunk of any five hundred bucks you hope to save. And how good is your final solution? The alternatives discussed here are their own cautionary admonitions. Weld bronze? You're right, you can very satisfactorily weld bronze. Some bronze. With the correct rod. And the proper welding equipment. By someone who knows what they're doing with that specific alloy. Many, and I mean many, bronzes popular in the marine market don't weld worth a darn, if at all. Manganese bronze? No way. It's brass and upwards of 30% pure zinc. Aluminum bronze? Well, there are dozens of them and none that I know of that see regular use in marine applications weld well at all. At least not with conventional equipment. And how do you know what you're getting? Silicon bronze? The range of copper/ silicon alloys that are marketed as 'silicon bronze' have zinc contents ranging from .25% to 16%. Think of all the stuff merely marketed as 'bronze'. Could be anything. Is the pipe that you're getting from the hardware store compatible with the plate you're getting from somewhere else? And if it is, what is it? How do you know what kind of rod/wire to use? If you deal with a competent foundry, you'll get a part that is a known quanity. Certified alloys, proper for the application. The part will be properly engineered for the task and all you have to do is install. No driving around. Time saved invested in other matters. You create a simple, dimensioned drawing, or make a simple template, or send off an old part, and get a perfect cure for your ill in return. Five hundred bucks in many keel boats is just a tank of gas these days! After reading this, it sounds sort of snarky and finger-wagging-ish, and if it is, oh well. It's my occasional inability to supress my "the emperor has no clothes" impulse. Shoot, what I like about this forum is it's guys-B.S.ing-in-a-bar quality. It's a good thing and I don't mean to rain on any parades, but I don't like to see anyone disappointed or bummed out with a boat project either. It's only my two cents, as they say, and worth every penny. ;)

[PeterSibley]

Actually ,it's worth fair bit more .:D

Right on the money .

[RFNK]

I completely agree with Gold Rock on this - if you want top quality you simply have to pay for it and you can waste an awful lot of time and money trying to save money. But, given that, how critical is it really to have exactly the right bronze for a rudder fitting? I mean, if you follow Bob Cleek's suggestion and have something welded up from whatever bronze they have in the cupboard at the local high school or you go to a top foundry and order the optimal material, what material difference will it really make? Will the fitting last longer - how much longer? Will it wear more slowly, corode more slowly, what will actually happen? Rick

[Gold Rock]

I don't know how much you know about pattern making, and I know very little, but don't forget to allow for shrinkage as the casting cools. You'll need a "shrink rule", or "pattern makers rule". I think cast aluminum shrinks about 1/30, don't know about bronze.

Co-rect on the need for shrink allowance. For all you aspiring patternmakers out there, however, you don't need expensive shrink rules (and they are alarmingly spendy!). They're nice to have and I have a full set at my disposal, but I often don't use them. Most shrink allowances, which can be found in many a text on patternmaking and foundry practice, are expressed in terms of fractions of an inch per foot. For instance, a shrink allowance of 3/16" per foot will accomodate most marine bronzes. This can be expressed as a multiplier thusly:

1 foot = 192/16" (there are 192 "16ths" on an inch in a foot)
A 3/16"/foot shrink rule is 3/16" longer than a standard 1 foot rule, or is actually 195/16" long. So by dividing 195 by 192, you get a multiplier of 1.015625.

Example: You want a linear dimension on a given casting to be
4 3/8". 4.375" x 1.015625 = 4.4434" which is the dimension this aspect of your pattern should have.

Whether the shrink allowance is expressed as a fraction of an inch per foot or as a percentage, these multipliers can be easily calculated.

[PeterSibley]

or multiply the required dimension by 1.56% on your pocket calculator .

Rick ,yes , some bronzes a very unsuitable for submerged useage ,a high zinc content can result in rapid dezincification .

[Gold Rock]

I completely agree with Gold Rock on this - if you want top quality you simply have to pay for it and you can waste an awful lot of time and money trying to save money. But, given that, how critical is it really to have exactly the right bronze for a rudder fitting? I mean, if you follow Bob Cleek's suggestion and have something welded up from whatever bronze they have in the cupboard at the local high school or you go to a top foundry and order the optimal material, what material difference will it really make? Will the fitting last longer - how much longer? Will it wear more slowly, corode more slowly, what will actually happen? Rick

It makes a lot of difference. Many alloys classified as bronzes have high percentages of zinc in them which, of course, is undesirable in below-the-waterline applications. My own boat had all of it's underwater fittings cast from manganese bronze. The rudder fittings were powdery, dangerously weak, and hopelessly hogged out junk after ten years. The alloy of choice for underwater fittings is C87300 high silicon bronze. This is the castable version of the venerable C65500 wrought alloy.

[Gold Rock]

or multiply the required dimension by 1.56% on your pocket calculator .



Exactly.

[seo]

In the distant past I worked for a company that ran boats for the Navy, or Us'n as they referred to it when something from a boat made it into the back of their pickup truck. Naval vessels are built to incredibly high standards, and IF you know what you're looking at there are lengths of monel heavy wall pipe and flat bar, 400 series stainless, in the dumpster.
You can be fairly sure that around the gates of any Naval shipyard there are shops that are operated by guys who DO know what they're looking at.
That's why, if I were in Hawaii, needing metal, I'd be poking around Pearl Harbor.

[Cliff B]

aloha, thanks for the reply,s ..so far I have gotten one quote for a casting for 450dollars and 450 for the pattern for a total of 900 plus shipping ,probably 1000dollars.. I was hoping on half of that.. looks like buying the pipe and flatbar of bronze and welding looks best idea .. I wonder how strong the welds are as compared to solid casting? I know the machine shop uses a special welding rod but that,s all I know..any knowledgeable persons out there?..derrick

It would save quite a bit if you made your own pattern. As others have noted, allow for shrinkage...3/16 per foot or so. This is also easy to approximate. You could actually make a wood or even PVC pattern. Just build what it is supposed to look like...make it a tiny bit big. The shaft hole should be smaller...if it take a 2" shaft, make a 1-3/4" hole and the rest will be bored out to fit.
If the shop has to work from your drawings,,,things could get dicey. If you build it first, you can approximate the fit pretty well. Personally, I might not worry about the shrinkage and make it actual size exept for machined surfaces which would need meat to cut off. If a dimension were 8"...you would get a 7-7/8" casting...it might not matter.
You could save $$$.

[Gold Rock]

It would save quite a bit if you made your own pattern. As others have noted, allow for shrinkage...3/16 per foot or so. This is also easy to approximate. You could actually make a wood or even PVC pattern. Just build what it is supposed to look like...make it a tiny bit big. The shaft hole should be smaller...if it take a 2" shaft, make a 1-3/4" hole and the rest will be bored out to fit.
If the shop has to work from your drawings,,,things could get dicey. If you build it first, you can approximate the fit pretty well. Personally, I might not worry about the shrinkage and make it actual size exept for machined surfaces which would need meat to cut off. If a dimension were 8"...you would get a 7-7/8" casting...it might not matter.
You could save $$$.

Good idea at heart, but some corrections are needed:

A) "Just build what it is supposed to look like..." is the most common failing in customer supplied patterns. A pattern is not merely a model of a finished part. A pattern necessarily incorporates aspects that allow it to be successfully molded and cast. Things like draft, sacraficial reinforcements, core prints, machining bosses, filleting, correct cross sectional proportions, correct parting planes, and required following boards, are just some things to consider. It's rare that I recieve a customer supplied pattern that doesn't require attention by me before it goes on the mold floor. Remember, that's 80 bucks an hour! For the drawing posted here, for instance, there's no way you're going to cast a hole in that fitting. It's either going to be cast solid and machined (a lot), or cast with a core print and machined (a little).

B) "If the shop has to work from your drawings..things could get dicey.." Give your self some credit here. If you supply a dicey drawing, you may get what you ask for. On the other hand, any shop worth it's salt has done things like rudder fittings so many times that they're going to pick up any irregularities and clear them up with you before they proceed. What's more, you'd be amazed at the terrific parts that can be produced with nothing more than a hazy sketch on a stained cocktail napkin. (Ask me how I know..) Happens all the time.

By all means, don't shy from trying your hand at making a pattern. Rudder fittings aren't all that complicated. But don't just wing it. Get a book and learn what's required. At the very least, you'll learn valuable things from the attempt and probably clarify your needs on the specific project so that you'll get a better part in the end no matter how you ultimately procure it.

[PeterSibley]

IIRC ,this is a very useful article on the subject , it's were I started and my patterns are vaguely useful these days .

Patternmaking: for castings/technique of Michael Podmaniczky, 39:58 in WoodenBoat magaazine of course !

[seo]

I wonder if for this use, if one were intent on casting, and if the pattern was to be made by an amateur, whether it might be possible to make it out of some kind of foam and investment cast it. Wouldn't that eliminate at least some of the complexity of making the pattern?

[Cliff B]

Good idea at heart, but some corrections are needed:

A) "Just build what it is supposed to look like..." is the most common failing in customer supplied patterns. A pattern is not merely a model of a finished part. A pattern necessarily incorporates aspects that allow it to be successfully molded and cast. Things like draft, sacraficial reinforcements, core prints, machining bosses, filleting, correct cross sectional proportions, correct parting planes, and required following boards, are just some things to consider. It's rare that I recieve a customer supplied pattern that doesn't require attention by me before it goes on the mold floor. Remember, that's 80 bucks an hour! For the drawing posted here, for instance, there's no way you're going to cast a hole in that fitting. It's either going to be cast solid and machined (a lot), or cast with a core print and machined (a little).

B) "If the shop has to work from your drawings..things could get dicey.." Give your self some credit here. If you supply a dicey drawing, you may get what you ask for. On the other hand, any shop worth it's salt has done things like rudder fittings so many times that they're going to pick up any irregularities and clear them up with you before they proceed. What's more, you'd be amazed at the terrific parts that can be produced with nothing more than a hazy sketch on a stained cocktail napkin. (Ask me how I know..) Happens all the time.

By all means, don't shy from trying your hand at making a pattern. Rudder fittings aren't all that complicated. But don't just wing it. Get a book and learn what's required. At the very least, you'll learn valuable things from the attempt and probably clarify your needs on the specific project so that you'll get a better part in the end no matter how you ultimately procure it.


You make good points, but I have found that if a 3-D version of the concept is made, the person that initiates it can get a solid interpretation of the problem. I did not want to swamp him in theory, having taught drafting and patternmaking. Yes, learning the principles, draft angles and core prints is very valuable, but I have seen quite a few owner built (and quite naive) wood patterns that the foundries have been able to turn into good, usable final product.
Patternmaking is indeed a fine art, not to be easily transferred from one person to another.
A solid pattern can be cut aprt by the foundry, and a little draft added here and there to give a great one-off solution.

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha ,, thanks everyone for the input.. its true if I could I would get it made tomorrow by a professional company and maybe I will, right now we are a little low on funds for the boat having just saved it from the state extermination program .. after jumping through all the hoops we finally are legal again, unlike many more that are ready for the chopping block..owning a wooden boat can be expensive , our insurance is 480 a year compared to a fiberglass boat at 50 dollars.. this being a small one about 28ft.. anyway that,s neither here nor there , I was just curious what else is out there . luckily I have till next haulout to figure it out.. apperantly its been working fine without it as the worms had replaced that section.. but a trip to the northwest would require something you could count on.. anyway no luck on finding big enough pipe of the right type for welding, so back to the drawing board.. stainless would be so much easier..but who wants that! how about melting down old props and bronze boat fittings , what are they made of? anyway its good to talk about this stuff and get it out there.. and we just thought maybe we could come up with an alternative to spending a lot of money, there is only so much the wife will tolerate,after all there is the grankids and the kids ect ect.. so still looking.. derrick

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha, well i,ve almost got all I need..My good friend has volunteered to cast my fitting for the grand total of 20dollars..the price of the fuel to melt the bronze. he has been casting all kids of stuff over the past twenty years..almost finished the pattern..there is lots of sites to get info on backyard casting on the net...now I just have to come up with the bronze..have a nice big prop thats been under water for years, probably manganese bronze, some beautiful highfield levers, winches and finally bronze turbuckles..all gonna be melted into one fitting.. anyone out there know what kind of bronze that will be? apperantly they have been casting bronze since 2000b.c. interesting history.. derrick

[Jim Ledger]

Derrick, here's a thread about my attempts at casting some rudder fittings. There might be something of use to you.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=88357

[paladin]

Just thinking, but a better way than welding on ears to a piece of bar may be to bend a piece of flat strap, insert a solid bar in the bend, tig weld everything together, then drill the hole or set the pin after......at would all align properly.

[Garret]

aloha, well i,ve almost got all I need..My good friend has volunteered to cast my fitting for the grand total of 20dollars..the price of the fuel to melt the bronze. he has been casting all kids of stuff over the past twenty years..almost finished the pattern..there is lots of sites to get info on backyard casting on the net...now I just have to come up with the bronze..have a nice big prop thats been under water for years, probably manganese bronze, some beautiful highfield levers, winches and finally bronze turbuckles..all gonna be melted into one fitting.. anyone out there know what kind of bronze that will be? apperantly they have been casting bronze since 2000b.c. interesting history.. derrick


Wait!!! Highfield Levers???? How big? I'll trade all kinds of other bronze or $ for some good highfields. Please let me know what the story with them is! Seriously - I need a pair ( of highfields, that is :D).

Thanks!

Garret

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha, the highfield levers in question are bronze, about 30inches long ..just by memory..about 1inch thick x2/1/2 and of course the corresponding slot and threaded adjustable hook..circa 1955 and they are very heavy.. they came off ceceline many years ago when she was rigged for racing with a single mast 60ft tall..now we have rope and pulleys for the running backs..garret I will send you a private message to work something out if you are interested!..Had another offer of foundry work today on the big island if my first attempts fail,another caster of bronze statues.. seem to be coming out of the woodwork..derrick

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha.. thanks jim ..Just downloaded the entire casting bronze threads ,including yours onto my mini computor which I will now take home and read up on..your site looks very informative ,thank you for letting me know..thank you palladin for your response also.. the problem is that a band cannot go all the way around as there is a half circle cut in deadwood for the forward part of the rudder..it kinda sets in there about 2inches, so they would have to be attached on the sides like the drawing..it looks like a cast rudder fitting is the answer..due to the fact that the boat is on another island and will cost me 200 dollars to fly there, it actually is cheaper to buy 20lbs of silicon bronze from atlas metals with shipping than to fly over and get my scrap bronze..Next time we head over there is to put on the new sails I,ve just sewed up and the new covers,so might be another month yet..derrick

[Garret]

aloha, the highfield levers in question are bronze, about 30inches long ..just by memory..about 1inch thick x2/1/2 and of course the corresponding slot and threaded adjustable hook..circa 1955 and they are very heavy.. they came off ceceline many years ago when she was rigged for racing with a single mast 60ft tall..now we have rope and pulleys for the running backs..garret I will send you a private message to work something out if you are interested!..Had another offer of foundry work today on the big island if my first attempts fail,another caster of bronze statues.. seem to be coming out of the woodwork..derrick

I am interested & awaiting your email. A pic or 2 would be wonderful! No rush on my part - except to talk before they got melted. Any chance of hold down plates/bails? I know some don't use 'em.

Garret

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha, well I thought I had it figured ..gold rock says use c66600 silicon bronze ,, no manganese bronze , even though props are made of it .. and now in reading wb#167 under letters I read ..quote. bronze wound.. fred hochgraf wb 166 refers to silicon bronze as a potential prop material.. this material should never be used for prop shafts as it is susectible to erosion _corrosion, in which the protective surface oxide film has a low shear strength and washes away in moving water continuously the bare metal underneath to further corrosion... well a rudder fitting certainly has a lot of moving water if one were to believe this? I believe I probably have 3_4 types of bronze to melt down over on my boat , or if ordering rom a metals dealer .. then what to ask for ?? there doesn,t seem to be any hard rules for bronze underwater fittings , at least that I have found yet!!! certainly none with alluminum or much zink...any metal working experts can answer any of this stuff? derrick

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha, forgot to mention that one of the few quotes I did get from a professional foundry ..warner foundry ..was for an under water rudder fitting and they came up with manganese bronze 421 .. this seems to shoot down some of the theories about manganese bronze ..so maybe that old prop will be of some use anyway!!derrick

[PeterSibley]

I'd reckon they should reconsider .AB1 or 2 ,aluminium bronze or silicon bronze would be preferable for most underwater fittings .I cast with manganese bronze , phosphor bronze and leaded bronze LG2 ,what we call gun metal .Even though I have 200kg of mang.br, ingots here I wouldn't use it underwater , except for a prop ...which is a special and specific use .

Your choice .

[paladin]

If you have bronze turnbuckles etc circa 1955 they may be worth more than the raw bronze...put them on e-bay or write a detailed description and send it to me with the price you need to get or the weight of the item.....send a message and I'll send a private e-mail address although I believe it's general knowledge.

[AJ Paul]

i am guessing you have already had the part made, but if not, couldn't you make the pattern yourself by welding aluminum in much the same way you were thinking of welding the bronze, then use said aluminum piece as the pattern for your bronze casting? i don't know about you, but at our boatyard here we cut our aluminum with chop saws to the dimensions we require, then stop in at the welding shop to pay a shop rate of $50/hr. just a thought.

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha , thanks for the reply.. actually the pattern shoudn,t be hard to make out of wood but difficult out of alluminum as it needs to be slightly tapered to withdraw from the drag and cope , or sand mold... need some boom gallow fittings so will make some patterns of them also and maybe something else ,who knows...anyway I have until next spring haulout to experiment and come up with some decent hardware... so far four offers on the island here to help me make them so just have to come up with the bronze .. meanwhile bending on the new sails qnd covers in the hopes of some sailing around the islands here ....derrrick

[McManusBoatWorks]

Derrick? Any luck with finding info on the skiffs over on the eastern side of Oahu?

[S B]

You can always whittle one out of wax, take it to the foundry where they can add the runners etc. and make a shell mold. Everything doesn't have to be sand cast.

[MaizieDerrick]

aloha,, sb ,,yes sounds like a good way of making a pattern.. hope to get over to ceceline and round up some bronze at least to try some practice runs.. unfortunatly just got out of the hospital for the second time in two months for heart operations and moving a little slow... it looks like you re from my home town.. st john,s nfld.. born there in 1952... and in answer to mcmanus boatworks,, due to the fact my wife won,t let me work on the boat , we are going for a little drive tomorrow to check out those boats, its about ten minutes from here.. if I can get the ha #,s I can get the owners name and find out about them.. derrick

[S B]

How's she cuttin', Townie?;) 53 was also a good year.

[lin pardey]

Hi
Happened to come across your discussion of casting a rudder fitting. In Larry's book, Details of Classic Boat Construction, there are pics and a discussion of how he made the patterns for Gudgeons and pintles for Taleisin plus how the foundry cast them. These fittings are very similar to the one you are making. Even more important he shows the bushings we added to keep the pintles from wearing and also prevent clicking noises which can be quite annoying at anchor. The bushings have to be replaced every 8 to ten years but cost almost nothing compared to replacing a pintle. If you are lucky, you might be able to view these pages on Google Books, on pages 396 to 401. (I say lucky becausegoogle protects publishers by only allowing folks to read 10 percent of any book and the pages they display are chosen randomly.).

Lin Pardey
www.landlpardey.com