Old wooden boat, almost 5,000 years old, found.

[The Bigfella]

CHINESE and Turkish evangelical explorers believe they may have found Noah's Ark - 4000m up a mountain in Turkey.

The team said it had recovered wooden specimens from a structure on Mount Ararat in eastern Turkey that carbon dating proved was 4800 years old, around the same time the ark is said to have been afloat.

"It's not 100 per cent that it is Noah's Ark but we think it is 99.9 per cent that this is it," said Yeung Wing-cheung, a Hong Kong documentary filmmaker and member of the 15-strong team from Noah's Ark Ministries International.

The structure had several compartments, some with wooden beams, which were believed to house animals, he said.

The group of evangelical archaeologists ruled out an established human settlement on the grounds that one had never been found above 3500m in the vicinity, Mr Yeung said.

Local Turkish officials would ask the central government in Ankara to apply for UNESCO World Heritage status so the site could be protected while a major archaeological dig was conducted, he added.


The biblical story says God decided to flood the earth after seeing how corrupt it had become, and told Noah to build an ark and fill it with two of every animal species.

After the flood waters receded, the Bible says, the ark came to rest on a mountain. Many believe that Mount Ararat, the highest point in the region, is where the ark and her inhabitants came aground.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/pc-certainty-of-noahs-ark-discovery-on-mount-ararat/story-fn3dxity-1225858591328

[donald branscom]

Why is there no photo?

How MANY times have we heard this story. cheeeessshhh!

Who cares.

[The Bigfella]

I just want to see how big it really was.

[Peerie Maa]

I just want to see how big it really was.

Bigger than you think. It was two by two for some animals, but seven by seven for the rest.

[GregH]

Just another fairy tale

[Larks]

you want pictures? you want size?

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah's_ark.htm

http://www.noahsark-naxuan.com/1.htm

inconceivable!!

[James McMullen]

Those poor, delusional chumps.

That team of "evangelical archaeologists" are going to need a cadre of evangelical geologists, paleontologists, biologists, geophysicists, cosmologists, and especially evangelical proctologists in order to tie up all the loose ends in that Global Noachian Flood Theory.

[peter radclyffe]

we can only hope the cutty sark museum dont get hold of it

[Larks]

doesn't just a tiny little part of you think "hey, this'd be a bit cool of it really was a 5000 year old boat" - regardless of any Biblical implications???

[The Bigfella]

we can only hope the cutty sark museum dont get hold of it

That's just wicked. :D

.... and yes Greg... that's my only interest in it. I'm not interested in what the cloud drivers want to make of it. Too many recycled pagan legends out there for me already.

[johngsandusky]

But don't you all belive the Prophet Gore who says we will be flooded soon for offending the god of the earth and political correctness?
I haven't read the story, but all legends start somewhere. If there really is a boat that high up, no one dragged it there. Either the water was way high (unlikely I think) or the mountain was a lot lower. (Like clamshells on the mountains in NY)

[Fitz]

Where did 4,000 m worth of water come from and where did it go?

[The Bigfella]

Where did 4,000 m worth of water come from and where did it go?

Global cooling. Might be a bit of mountain building going on too. Doesn't Africa crunch into Europe and push things up? I guess not at a rate approaching a foot a year.

[trefor]

wait, when did they start believing in carbon dating?

[L.W. Baxter]

doesn't just a tiny little part of you think "hey, this'd be a bit cool of it really was a 5000 year old boat" - regardless of any Biblical implications???

Yes. But the ridiculous thing about this story is that the "5000 year old boat" is just a geological formation. Vaguely boat shaped. And the wooden parts are "petrified". *snerk*

Nothing to see here folks but blind and wishful faith.

[The Bigfella]

I've got lots of petrified wood pieces around here. One piece I seem to recall has been dated at 80 million years.

[L.W. Baxter]

Sure, petrification happens. But the probability that any given piece of wood is going to be petrified is extremely low.

[The Bigfella]

Sure, petrification happens. But the probability that any given piece of wood is going to be petrified is extremely low.

Especially when the waters recede and its sitting on a dry mountaintop.

[L.W. Baxter]

It would take a miracle.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Funny, I didn't see anyone looking around in my backyard, but if they found it they found it. I still think it's restoreable. Really.

[G.Sherman]

I'm still waiting for "agnostic scientist discovers Noah's Ark while searching Mt. Ararat for pieces of the true cross". Faith is wonderful thing, but my guess is that evangelicals stumbling across WWII packing crates would "believe" it's part of the Ark.:(

[Bob Adams]

Sure, petrification happens. But the probability that any given piece of wood is going to be petrified is extremely low.

Did they have Epoxy back then?;)

[BA.Barcolounger]

If you ever want to have a good laugh, talk to a "Young Earth Creationist" about Noah's Ark and dinosaurs. They claim that there were dinosaurs on the boat as well.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3135/2699894214_c55920ee4d.jpg

[Boatguy1972]

they had the means to do carbon dating but they couldn't snap a few photo's?????

[daveboling]

This just proves the superiority and longevity of wooden boats over those of steel, aluminum, or "frozen snot". There has yet to be found any boat constructed of the "man-made" materials that is half as old as the one mentioned in the article.:p

[Nanoose]

... that Global Noachian Flood Theory.

Who said anything about 'global'?

[S/V Laura Ellen]

This just proves the superiority and longevity of wooden boats over those of steel, aluminum, or "frozen snot". There has yet to be found any boat constructed of the "man-made" materials that is half as old as the one mentioned in the article.:p

There are a few problems with your reasoning. Show me any evidence of a boat made of glass, aluminum or steel dating back to that time. Couldn't last that long because they never existed.

[The Bigfella]

There are a few problems with your reasoning. Show me any evidence of a boat made of glass, aluminum or steel dating back to that time. Couldn't last that long because they never existed.

And you know they never existed, how?

[S/V Laura Ellen]

And you know they never existed, how?

I suppose someone could have invented fibreglass built some boats and then everyone forgot about the whole deal. Yeah..Yeah, that's how it happened!:D

[JimD]

It has just been revealed that one of the ancient wooden beams was carved with the inscription 'Noah Wuz Here'. How much more proof do some of you doubters want?

[Vince Brennan]

McKay isn't involved in this, is he?

[mick allen]

This just proves the superiority and longevity of wooden boats over those of steel, aluminum, or "frozen snot". There has yet to be found any boat constructed of the "man-made" materials that is half as old as the one mentioned in the article.



There are a few problems with your reasoning. Show me any evidence of a boat made of glass, aluminum or steel dating back to that time. Couldn't last that long because they never existed.
the evidence according to reference #2:

"5. Contains high-tech metal alloy fittings, as proven by separate lab analyses paid for by Ron Wyatt, then performed later by Kevin Fisher of this web site. Aluminum metal and titanium metal was found in the fittings which are MAN-MADE metals!" and further down the page:

"In May, 1985, Dr. John Baumgardner of Los Alomas Labs, was inspecting the ark with a metal detector when he became startled and said, "Undecomposed Iron!" A rectangular beam was protruding from the side of the ark, with iron flakes. He found a beautiful right angled wrought iron bracket which had been stretched and hammered, showing preferential gradiance. John tested it at Los Alomas Labs and it was found to be 91.84% iron FE203." Which would mean a titanium, aluminum and iron age should start 2,000 years earlier than typically attributed to just the iron age in this region?

Just maybe a little far fetched?

[The Bigfella]

Yeah, I was wondering about the titanium too. I figured it must have been given to them by aliens. Or left over from a crashed US Aurora that went so fast it went back in time and crashed, or....

btw... I've got a nice bronze sword from near enough to there... it was in the Luristan deposit, found in the Zagreb Mountains. Its 6th Century BC. I guess the owner couldn't afford the titanium hilt for it though...

[Larks]

they did have to make sacrifices Ian, his was probably the lithium powered illuminated hilt version for night fighting.

[James McMullen]

Who said anything about 'global'?

The Bible. Genesis 7:19.

Try doing a little research there, Nanoose. This is your religion, not mine.

[pdufrene]

You guys were looking at the wrong link. This is the right one:
http://www.noahsarksearch.net/eng/

This is very fascinating if it can be verified. The boat is frozen in solid ice but has several access points.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page for pictures inside several of the rooms of the ark. There is also video of the inside here: http://www.noahsarksearch.net/eng/video.php?id=5

FOX News Link: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/04/27/noahs-ark-found-turkey-ararat/

The geological formation mentioned in a previous thread has nothing to do with this find. That was a lot of wishfull thinking by a self proclaimed archeologist Ron Wyatt.

[Steve Paskey]

Does anyone on that team of "archeologists" actually know anything about archeology? Consider this, from the Fox News story:


During the press conference, team member Panda Lee described visiting the site. “In October 2008, I climbed the mountain with the Turkish team. At an elevation of more than 4,000 meters, I saw a structure built with plank-like timber. Each plank was about 8 inches wide. I could see tenons, proof of ancient construction predating the use of metal nails."

No self-respecting archeologist would claim that tenons are "proof of ancient construction predating the use of metal nails."
.
Fascinating stuff, but there are lots of unanswered questions. I'll be eager to hear more when serious scientists have a chance to take a look at this.
.

[paladin]

Aw I dunno, I believe it. I have a Tsuba from a sword that the "experts" that visited the Smithsonian a few years back told me it was older than any that they have in their collections in Japan, and they tried to buy it, and offered a really ridiculous price....I still have it stashed away. It was on a mostly decomposed sword that I obtained in Thailand in the mid 60's.

[daveboling]

There are a few problems with your reasoning. Show me any evidence of a boat made of glass, aluminum or steel dating back to that time. Couldn't last that long because they never existed.

Sorry for the confusion, but I couldn't find an emoticon indicating tongue planted firmly in cheek.:D

[ILikeRust]

You guys were looking at the wrong link. This is the right one:
http://www.noahsarksearch.net/eng/

This is very fascinating if it can be verified. The boat is frozen in solid ice but has several access points.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page for pictures inside several of the rooms of the ark.

A few pics on the internet (of all places) of some logs, dirt and snow prove precisely zilch.

In the book "The Demon-Haunted World (Science as a Candle in the Darkness)", Carl Sagan wrote of a "baloney detection kit," and how far too many people are lacking a sufficiently equipped one.

It's an enjoyable book, BTW.

[Concordia 33]

I was wondering if she still had her builder's plate and documentation number?

[I, Rowboat]

The bible says it. (At least, that's the general consensus after numerous translations and selective "editing" by church hierarchy)
I believe it. (Because natural selection favors deference to parental authority in children, the clergy are a sufficient substitute, and there's little selective pressure for the credulity to abate in later years)
That settles it. (Just working from god's policy: No Difficult Questions)

Everybody knows that koalas and sloths are in easy walking distance of the middle east. What's the problem? Are you not sufficiently awed by Solemn Truth as revealed through third-hand pre-scientific Bronze-Age mythology?

[Larks]

Whatever it is, I'm looking forward to seeing the progress on its investigation. A 4800 year old, long, rectangular, well built wooden structure 4000 metres up a mountain, I find it incredibly interesting.

[Tom Lathrop]

Before makeing rash statements you should look at post #36 and the listed websites that show photos and videos. Surely they have found something of interest. Is it the Biblical Ark? I'm not a believer so I don't think so. Their statements are just what would be expected of evangelicals and don't make for any confidence in their science.

It is pretty clear that it is some structure made of wood. Mountain retreat for a long ago king perhaps, but it ain't no ark. That story just doesn't hold water:D That trees don't grow at that altitude is not at all clear in differing climate eras. It is certain that the mountain has not grown a lot in 4800 years. Ancients were pretty inventive at hauling stuff to wherever they wanted to, especially for religious purposes.

[ILikeRust]

The photos that I can see are dark, murky and indistinct. They show some people standing near some logs in dirt and snow.

There is nothing - other than the claims of these people - to prove where they even are. Is it even on Mt. Ararat? They won't say where it is. There is nothing to prove they "found" anything - for all we know, they built that "structure" and took pictures of themselves standing near it.

Seems incredibly convenient that this group of "evangelical archaeologists" set out looking for Noahs' Ark and - well lookie here! They found it. Not only that, but they conveniently suddenly trust in carbon dating, and it conveniently "proves" the timbers to be 4800 years old.

I'll wait for something resembling objective, scientific, peer-reviewed evidence - not a few indistinct pics on a website and claims of a group with an specific agenda.

I'm thinking this whole thread might end up poofing and reappearing in the Bilge, where it might end up belonging, anyhow.

[Larks]

The photos that I can see are dark, murky and indistinct. They show some people standing near some logs in dirt and snow.

There is nothing - other than the claims of these people - to prove where they even are. Is it even on Mt. Ararat? They won't say where it is. There is nothing to prove they "found" anything - for all we know, they built that "structure" and took pictures of themselves standing near it.

Seems incredibly convenient that this group of "evangelical archaeologists" set out looking for Noahs' Ark and - well lookie here! They found it. Not only that, but they conveniently suddenly trust in carbon dating, and it conveniently "proves" the timbers to be 4800 years old.

I'll wait for something resembling objective, scientific, peer-reviewed evidence - not a few indistinct pics on a website and claims of a group with an specific agenda.

I'm thinking this whole thread might end up poofing and reappearing in the Bilge, where it might end up belonging, anyhow.

You are sounding like the sort of bloke who would feel incredibly inconvenienced if it did turn out to be something of historic (note - I'm not saying Biblical) significance.

[Steve Paskey]

You are sounding like the sort of bloke who would feel incredibly inconvenienced if it did turn out to be something of historic (note - I'm not saying Biblical) significance.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. There are three possibilities:

1. They found Noah's ark.
2. They found a very old structure on Mt. Ararat, but it isn't the ark.
3. Those pictures weren't taken on Mt. Ararat at all, and the whole thing is a giant fraud.

Personally, I think it'd be incredibly interesting if they've actually found something. But given the group's agenda, the very limited information they've provided thus far, and the long history of bogus claims about the ark, a reasonable person could certainly conclude that number (3) is the most likely possibility.

[Boston]

its your basic neolithic village with a defensive perimeter wall
absolutely nothing out of the ordinary as these kind of villages sites are found all over the globe

basic wishful thinking nothing more and nothing less

cheers
B

[Larks]

I would say that even finding a 4800 year old basic neolithic village is far more than less, that alone is cause for considerable interest and some excitement (well it is for me anyway)

[Steve Paskey]

I would agree, especially given the location -- above 4,000m in a mountainous region of turkey.

[ILikeRust]

You are sounding like the sort of bloke who would feel incredibly inconvenienced if it did turn out to be something of historic (note - I'm not saying Biblical) significance.

1. What Steve Paskey said.

2. Not at all. I am merely observing that the actual, proven facts as we know them are nearly nonexistent. All we have are the unconfirmed and highly biased claims of a group with a strong and specific agenda. I always am skeptical of such claims, no matter the group or the agenda - as any critically-thinking person would be.

About a year or two ago, there were two guys who claimed to have an actual "bigfoot" (sasquatch) carcass. They claimed to have shot it in the woods. They provided photographs of what looked to be a large, hairy body frozen in a block of ice in a very large cooler chest. There was more than a little buzz.

It turned out, of course, to be a complete fraud.

I am reserving judgment.

[bljones]

From this morning's paper:

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/802106--is-the-latest-noah-s-ark-discovery-a-fake?bn=1

[Steve Paskey]

That was quick.


Now, someone within the Noah’s Ark Ministries camp is rubbishing the discovery.

Randall Price, an evangelical Christian, was apparently one of the original archeologists hired by the group. He has been circulating an email, alleging that the wooden beams were taken from a site near the Black Sea and then planted on Ararat. Price has stopped talking about the incident, and is involved in some sort of financial dispute with Noah’s Ark Ministries. But he did acknowledge the email to the Christian Science Monitor.

[Steve Paskey]

Below is an excerpt from a story by the Christian Science Monitor. More here:
www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-Issues/2010/0428/Doubt-cast-on-Noah-s-ark-found-in-Turkey


Dr. Price, who is director of the Center for Judaic Studies at the conservative Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., was the archaeologist on the Chinese-led team in 2008 when this alleged discovery was first made. He says he has “difficulties with a number of issues related to the evidence at hand.”

Price declined to elaborate. However, a leaked email from Price – which he confirms that he wrote – shows that he has reason to believe that a group of local Kurdish men trucked wood up to the mountain and staged an elaborate hoax for the Chinese team.

A group of Kurdish workers “are said to have planted large wood beams taken from an old structure in the Black Sea area (where the photos were originally taken) at the Mt. Ararat site. … During the summer of 2009 more wood was planted inside a cave at the site. The Chinese team went in the late summer of 2009 (I was there at the time and knew about the hoax) and was shown the cave with the wood and made their film,” Price writes in the email.

Price is a longtime searcher himself for the ark. As a member of Noah’s Ark Search LLC, he had gone on a number of expeditions to Mount Ararat.

Price was not the only member to withdraw from the Chinese-led team over questions about their purported finding.

[Steve Paskey]

in the Andies some are found above the 13,000' mark so 4,000 is nothing special

That's 4000 meters, which is a bit over 13,000 feet. And from what I've read, the building materials of choice in the neolithic era were typically either mudbrick or a timber frame with wattle and daub walls. A neolithic structure with wood-beam walls would seem to be unusual.

[Steve Paskey]

my bad
I did not realize the measurement was in meters but still thats all of about a hundred feet above 13,0000 so this site is within the parameters of a typical neolithic village.

I don't know if you picked up on this from the original news story, but part of their argument seemed to run like this:

1. To date, no settlements have been found in this area above 3500m.
2. This structure is at 4000m.
3. Therefore, we're certain that this structure is a boat.

[Tom Lathrop]

you might find information on Tihuanaco interesting as it was a thriving metropolis with a huge population and built of stone each weighing in at many tons and some at many hundreds of tons
The quarry was found over 50 miles away and there is a harbor associated with the city that can accommodate hundreds of ships

many smaller enclaves of this city have been found at altitudes of 14,000ft and more in the surrounding hills

now that is an interesting archeological site
[/SIZE]

Didn't Tim Robbins and Morgan Freeman discover Tihuanaco?

[David Cockey]

Oh, I wouldn't say that. There are three possibilities:

1. They found Noah's ark.
2. They found a very old structure on Mt. Ararat, but it isn't the ark.
3. Those pictures weren't taken on Mt. Ararat at all, and the whole thing is a giant fraud.

Personally, I think it'd be incredibly interesting if they've actually found something. But given the group's agenda, the very limited information they've provided thus far, and the long history of bogus claims about the ark, a reasonable person could certainly conclude that number (3) is the most likely possibility.

4> They found an "old" structure on Mr Ararat, but it isn't nearly as old as they claim it to be.

I remember when "Daniel Boone's cabin" was found in the 1960's. A lot of "experts" were convinced. Several decades later a couple of older men who grew up in the area finally admitted they had built when they had built it when they were teenagers.

[esingleman]

All I really want to know is...

Is there a cut-out on the transom for an outboard, or was this strickly a sailing vessel?

Erick

[Bob Cleek]

Well, it may be some old "structure," but it's not any sort of floating vessel, if you take the Biblical story literally. The literalist Fundamentalists claim the "cubits" add up to something between 450 and 550 feet for Noah's ark. (If they are so sure, I don't know why they can't agree on the size of thing, but anyway...)

There aren't any (non-composite metal reinforced) wooden ships that size because wood as a strutural material has its limits. There weren't ever any wooden ships much over about 325 feet long because as they increase in size, they suffer a loss of overall structural integrity. The motion of the seas simply twists and breaks them apart. All the larger wooden ships immediately prior to the age of iron ships suffered severe leaking problems because the flexion in their structures caused their planking to open. In any event, most of the larger wood planked ships and barges on record were functional only because they were reinforced with iron frames, knees and fastenings.

It was this phenomenon, coupled with a desire to build larger (and therefore more profitable) hulls, that caused Brunell to design the first iron hulled ships. Once that milestone was passed, the age of wooden ships was over.

Unless God Himself kept Noah's 450 to 550 foot ark afloat, it was a goner as soon as it was launched. The fact that there was a big storm making the Great Flood would have only hastened its demise.

Sorry, but them's the facts.

[The Bigfella]

Well, it may be some old "structure," but it's not any sort of floating vessel, if you take the Biblical story literally. The literalist Fundamentalists claim the "cubits" add up to something between 450 and 550 feet for Noah's ark. (If they are so sure, I don't know why they can't agree on the size of thing, but anyway...)

...snip....

Sorry, but them's the facts.

Same issue as historians in another thousand years or more will confront when they try and understand what a gallon was.

Was it 3.8 litres, or was it 4.6 litres?

There were different cubits.

[Garret]

I could see tenons, proof of ancient construction predating the use of metal nails."

I built a post & beam house in the 1980's. So it's not just teenagers who think the 80's were "ancient history"?

It must be worth a fortune now! Where do I collect the $? Or maybe they could just mail it to me?

[The Bigfella]

Stonehenge has tenons. Isn't it 5,000 years old?

[Garret]

Well, it may be some old "structure," but it's not any sort of floating vessel, if you take the Biblical story literally. The literalist Fundamentalists claim the "cubits" add up to something between 450 and 550 feet for Noah's ark. (If they are so sure, I don't know why they can't agree on the size of thing, but anyway...)

There aren't any (non-composite metal reinforced) wooden ships that size because wood as a strutural material has its limits. There weren't ever any wooden ships much over about 325 feet long because as they increase in size, they suffer a loss of overall structural integrity. The motion of the seas simply twists and breaks them apart. All the larger wooden ships immediately prior to the age of iron ships suffered severe leaking problems because the flexion in their structures caused their planking to open. In any event, most of the larger wood planked ships and barges on record were functional only because they were reinforced with iron frames, knees and fastenings.

It was this phenomenon, coupled with a desire to build larger (and therefore more profitable) hulls, that caused Brunell to design the first iron hulled ships. Once that milestone was passed, the age of wooden ships was over.

Unless God Himself kept Noah's 450 to 550 foot ark afloat, it was a goner as soon as it was launched. The fact that there was a big storm making the Great Flood would have only hastened its demise.

Sorry, but them's the facts.

Geez Bob - the titanium woulda stiffened it up just fine! ;)

[bobbys]

Why is this not in the bilge if people are attacking religion, I read here and have NEVER disrespected anyone here.

[The Bigfella]

Its here cause I put it here....

[rufustr]

Same issue as historians in another thousand years or more will confront when they try and understand what a gallon was.

Was it 3.8 litres, or was it 4.6 litres?

There were different cubits.


Actually an Imperial gallon is 4.54609 litres.

:D:D

[The Bigfella]

Actually an Imperial gallon is 4.54609 litres.

:D:D

My wife says I'm a loser and that I'm trying to cheat and that it is 4.5 litres.

[Larks]

Why is this not in the bilge if people are attacking religion, I read here and have NEVER disrespected anyone here.

That's not a bad point Bobbys, though I think the original idea of it being here was that it may be a 5000 year old boat, arc or not. That it may be a 5000 year old building should probably send it out of "misc boat related" but some people are just as disrespectful outside of the bilge on other threads so it may as well stay here now.